Bills/Browns: Notes From the Line
Welcome back Brad Butler! Oh, how you have been missed. Also, welcome back Pro Bowl form Jason Peters. Where have you been hiding?
I was one of those people who was completely mystified by Derek Fine’s selection in the draft. I thought we pretty much already had him on the roster under another name (Derek Schouman) and really wanted Buffalo to pick up a stud FB with that pick. Ooops. While the FB position remains an issue Corey (McIntyre does make contact—an improvement over Barnes—but he either plows into the backs of teammates or fails to stop a defender even when he generates a good pop.) I’m seeing why Buffalo expended a pick on Fine. He’s a hell of a blocker. He was on the field more than Robert Royal, which kind of suggests that Royal’s days in Buffalo are numbered. He won’t blow anyone away with his receiving numbers (he had one catch for 6 yards and couldn’t dig an errant Trent Edwards’ throw out of the dirt) but he’s tenacious in the trenches.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game in which a defense didn’t blitz at all. Ever. Well, I have now. They never sent more than 4 defenders and only sent that many on 10 of 30 (33.3%) of pass plays. Edwards faced 8 man coverage schemes 66.7% of the time. The Browns also didn’t stack the box often—just 5 of 36 (13.9%) of the time. On those runs (5, 10, 26, 33, 36) the Bills picked up (3, 19, -1, 1 TD, 2) 24 yards, or 4.8 ypa. That sort of defense just screams run, and run Buffalo did—6 more times than they passed.
We all (I think) acknowledge that Duke Preston isn’t a starting quality center. While Buffalo had their most productive game on the ground (180 yards), Preston had an absolutely miserable game. He had 2 good run plays, 15 decent ones, an eye-popping 19 bad ones and 4 killed plays. That grades out at a horrible 65.5%. Rogers bent him over and made Preston his woman….even when Preston initially had help from Derrick Dockery or Butler. While I have heaped scorn (well deserved, I think) on Dick Jauron for his uber-conservative play calling at the end of the game, I hadn’t yet realized how badly Preston played on that final series. He helped kill that drive and Buffalo’s chances of winning the game. My guess is that Jauron told him the center job is his to lose—and he’s lost it. Look for Buffalo to finally address the position in the off-season, quite possibly through free agency AND the draft.
Fair warning: I will be on the east coast over the Thanksgiving holiday so I almost certainly won’t be able to break down this Sunday’s game until sometime down the road. I’m guessing it will be something I do over Christmas break….after I get back from Vegas.
The rest of my rambling is after the jump, which Kurupt was nice enough to tell me how to do....

Drive 1
Pass 1 INT
Rogers got his hand up and deflected it. One of the 8 defenders in coverage was able to pick it off. I pin the blame on Dock. He, Preston and Butler all had Rogers smooshed in between them. However, Dock let Rogers get his right arm up.
Drive killed by Dock
Drive 2
Run 1 Lynch for 1 yard through the right B gap
Peters got a 2 yard push on 91. Dock missed 52 at the 2nd level and 52 made the tackle. Preston was pushed 4 yards into the backfield, rerouting the play. Butler missed 54 at the 2nd level and he was in on the tackle. 99 shed Walker and was in on the tackle.
Pass 2 Parrish 21 yards
Pass 3 scramble for 2 yards
The Browns sent 4 and somehow Lynch wound up 1-on-1 with 55. Lynch couldn’t sustain the block so Edwards took off.
Pass 4 INT
Butler and Walker did a terrific job of seamlessly handing off defenders when they tried a stunt. The INT was all on Edwards.
Drive killed by Edwards.
Drive 3
Run 2 Lynch 6 yards through left B gap
Peters got a 2 yard drive on 91. Dock and Preston doubled 92 and turned him out of the hole. Butler pulled and popped 52 in the hole, which kept him from filling. Walker drove 99 4 yards.
Run 3 Lynch 4 yards through left C gap
Peters faked a pass block and drove 97 3 yards. Dock blocked 91. Preston and Butler doubled 92. Walker pushed 99 3 yards.
Run 4 Lynch -1 yards through A gap
Peters got a little drive on 91, only about a yard. Dock tried to help Preston with 92 but 92 swam past Preston’s right shoulder (away from Dock) so fast he got the TFL. Butler chipped 99 and then picked up 52 at the 2nd level. Walker drove 99 2 yards.
Pass 5 Lynch 4 yards
It was a screen pass against 7 guys in coverage.
Pass 6 Lynch no gain
Dock ran out to the flat and picked off 55, not that it was enough to help. Edwards had over 4 seconds to find someone, anyone.
Drive killed by Edwards inability to find anyone to throw to never mind plenty of time.
Drive 4
Run 5 Lynch for 3 yards through left B gap against 8 man front
Peters drove 97 3 yards and planted him. Dock helped Preston with 71 then shed and hit 52. As soon as Dock had moved on, 71 brushed Preston aside and got in on the tackle. Butler never let 93 get his shoulders turned and drove him 4 yards. Walker kept 96 from getting off the line with help from Fine. Schouman did a nice job on 95. McIntyre popped 54 but didn’t knock him back.
Run 6 Lynch 4 yards through left B gap
Peters pancaked 97 again, after driving him 7 yards downfield. Dock locked up 52 at the 2nd level. Preston got a 1 yard push on 92, but he was still in on tackle. Butler helped Preston with 92 and then Walker with 93. Walker got a 3 yard push on 93.
WASTED TIME OUT
Pass 7 INT
Edwards could have easily scrambled for a 1st down but he didn’t even have to do that. Lynch was standing out in the flat and the nearest defender was 10 yards away…while Lynch was 2 yards from the sticks.
Drive killed by Edwards INT, not to mention his failure to scramble or throw to a wide open Lynch.
Drive 5
Run 7 Lynch for 2 yards through the left B gap
Peters turned 91 in circles. Dock pulled and fell down trying to block 54. Preston got immediate help from Butler but, when Butler went to the 2nd level in a futile attempt to block 52, 92 bounced Preston back a full yard and took off after Lynch. Walker stalemated 99. Fine had a good block on 54.
Run 8 Lynch for 5 yards through the A gap
Peters stopped 91 long enough for Lynch to get by but 91 was still in on tackle. Dock hit 52 at the 2nd level and drove him 2 yards but 52 was still in on the tackle. 92 beat Preston over his left shoulder and when Lynch went right 92 beat Preston (again) over his right shoulder to get in on the tackle. Butler and Walker teamed up on 99.
Pass 8 dropped by Johnson
Edwards hit him right between the numbers and Johnson had enough for the first down. Johnson wanted the ball a bit earlier than it was thrown but, still, catch the ball.
Drive killed by Johnson
Drive 6
Run 9 Lynch for 2 yards through left C gap (idiotic wildcat)
Peters blocked 91. Dock and Preston started out together on 92 until Preston went on to block 54. Dock held his own. Butler never let 99 turn his shoulders and drove him across the formation. Walker lined up as the left TE. He blocked 91 with Peters. Fine was the RT.
Pass 9 Lynch 4 yards
95 took Peters to Edwards. Butler tried to help Preston with 92 but 92 was by Preston so quickly Butler couldn’t get to him.
Run 10 Jackson for 19 yards through the A gap against an 8 man front
Peters turned 95 away from the line. Dock did a great job on 92 1-on-1 (See, Preston? It is possible…) and didn’t let him turn back into the run lane. Meanwhile, Preston was blocking 99, who pushed Preston back so far that Preston almost clogged the run lane. Butler shielded 52 from the play and Walker blocked a DB (???). Royal missed a block on a LB.
Run 11 Jackson for 17 yards through left B gap
Peters shielded 54 away from the play at the 2nd level and created the run lane. Dock and Preston initially teamed up on 92. Dock took over and drove him 5 yards down the line. Preston tried to cut 52 but missed, though it did force 52 to chase the play. Butler chucked 93 and blocked 55. Walker tossed 93 out of the play. Royal got enough of 91 to slow him down and keep him out of the play.
Run 12 Jackson for -1 yard through the A gap
Peters drove 91 3 yards. Dock helped with 91 then blocked now one and instead kind of hopped around. Preston got no movement on 92, was pushed past the run lane and then 92 fell on a suddenly thinner Jackson. Butler hit 52 at the 2nd level and held his jersey (no flag). Walker took 93 e yards off the line. Royal whiffed on 55, who was in on the tackle.
Pass 10 Lynch 18 yard TD
It was mostly Lynch and his nose for the end zone but he did have some help. Peters got downfield and pushed the pile into the end zone. Dock got downfield and got enough of a pop on 95 to keep him from stopping Lynch short of the goal line.
Drive ended in TD.
Drive 7
Run 13 Jackson 1 yard through the A gap (idiotic wildcat)
Peters helped Dock with 91 and then missed a LB at the 2nd level. 91 got inside of Dock and was in on the tackle. 71 drove Preston to the ground and was in on the tackle. Butler pulled but was too slow to react to 54 filling. Walker blocked 99.
Pass 11 Johnson for 11 yards
Run 14 Lynch 8 yards through left B gap
Peters pushed 91 7 yards. Dock locked up 54 and opened lane. Preston danced with 71. Butler hit 52 at the 2nd level and 52 got in on the tackle. Walker kept 99 out of the play. Schouman missed a block on 55 while Fine did a great job on 96.
Run 15 Jackson 8 yards through A gap
Peters blocked 95 and Dock blocked 97. Preston went to the 2nd level and blocked 54, mainly by holding his jersey (no flag). Butler rolled 92 to the ground. Walker turned 99, who then had to chase the play to get in on the tackle. McIntyre hit 52, who made the tackle anyway. Fine did a good job on 55.
Pass 12 Fine 7 yards
Run 16 Lynch -1 yard through the A gap
Peters and Fowler somehow got tangled up and both fell down. Preston was turned in circles by 92. Butler blocked 52 at the 2nd level and kept going until the whistle. Walker got no drive on 99.
Run 17 Jackson 6 yards through right C gap (idiotic wildcat—did I mention I hate it?)
Peters didn’t really block anyone. Dock blocked 99 and slowed down 92 with help from Fine. 92 had already slid past Preston, who then missed a cut on 52. Butler got a poor block on 54 who almost got a TFL—which would have killed the drive. Walker pulled but had to stop to get Shouman’s guy (who Schouman had flat out missed) out of the way. Johnson did a good job of keeping a DB off of Jackson.
Pass 13 INC deflected
Dock and Peters didn’t keep 97 from elevating. It’s not a killed play because it looked like the pass was going to be an INT. Butler meanwhile planted 92.
Pass 14 Lynch 10 yards
If Losman had thrown the pass people would be calling for his head. It was just awful.
Pass 15 scramble for 4 yards
Pass 16 INC
Edwards threw it too late and was fortunate not to have it picked off. Parrish could have done a better job fighting for it.
Pass 17 INC
Edwards threw it away after 5 seconds.
Drive killed by Edwards inaccurate passes though the Bills got a FG to go in at the half.
Drive 8
Run 18 Lynch 4 yards through the left C gap
Peters got a 1 yard push on 91. Dock chipped 92 then locked up 51 at the 2nd level. Immediately after Dock left 92 slammed Preston to the ground. Butler and Walker teamed up on 99.
Pass 18 Lynch 3 yards
92 split Dock and Preston to get to Edwards.
Pass 19 Johnson 21 yards
Walker did a fantastic job of keeping the DE from getting his hands up or elevating. Maybe Dock took some notes…
Run 19 Lynch 4 yards through the right C gap
Peters drove 97 3 yards. Dock helped Preston with 92 and then got enough of 52 to keep him from catching Lynch. Preston was driven back 3 yards after Dock left. Butler missed 54 at the 2nd level, rerouting the play. 99 pushed into Walker, who let him. Walker then put 99 down and dropped on top of him. Fine didn’t sustain his block on 55 but kept him busy until Lynch was past.
Run 20 Jackson 2 yards through left B gap and then fumbled
Peters drove 95 2 yards. Dock was pushed back 1 yard by 97. Preston kept 71 from penetrating. Butler turned 54 and never let him get turned around and planted him at the end of the play. Walker kept 99 away from the play. Schouman popped 52 hard enough to set him back 2 yards (See, McIntyre? It is possible…) but didn’t stay engaged.
Drive killed by Jackson
Drive 9
Pass 20 Lynch 1 yard
Dock, Preston and Butler tripled 92.
Pass 21 Scramble for 7 yards.
Peters ruined it for the Bills with illegal hands to the face. Preston and Butler put 92 down. It would have been a first down based on defensive holding if not for Peters.
Pass 22 thrown away
Edwards never turned his head to the right where the WRs were even though he had 4 seconds.
Pass 23 Lynch for 13 yards
It was another awful pass. Butler got upfield far enough to get a piece of 21 which kept him from making the tackle.
Run 21 Jackson 7 yards through A gap
Peters drove 97 3 yards and then gave him a shove when he turned around to chase the play. Dock engulfed 52 and drove him 4 yards. Preston got a 2 yard drive on 71. Butler and Walker teamed up on 93. Fine did a terrific job on 96 and kept after him through the whistle just bull dogging him. Schouman had a decent block on 95.
Run 22 Jackson 3 yards through the left C gap
Peters turned 97 out of the hole. Dock with to the 2nd level and hit 54 but he still was in on the tackle. Preston got no drive on 71, who was in on tackle. Butler hit 52 at the 2nd level and wouldn’t let him go. Walker drove 93 2 yards. 51 beat Fine’s block but couldn’t get in on the tackle. Schouman hit 96 well after the play and could have drawn a flag.
Pass 24 INC
It was another horrible pass from Edwards.
Run 23 Lynch 14 yards through the left C gap
Peters got a 2 yard drive on 97. Dock helped with 71 and then got a piece of 54. Preston got no drive on 71. Butler locked up 93 while Walker didn’t really block anyone. McIntyre plowed into the backs of Butler and Preston. Fine did a fine (Nyuck! Nyuck!) job on 51 to open the run lane.
Run 24 Jackson 6 yards through left C gap
Peters locked up 93 and then turned him in circles. Walker helped Preston with 92 and then got a piece of 54. Preston didn’t get murdered when left alone with 92. Butler pulled and hit 52 in the hole…and then got up gimpy. Walker stalemated 99.
Run 25 Jackson 2 yards through left B gap
Peters locked up 93. Dock hit 52 at the 2nd level and drove him 2 yards. Preston was driven 4 yards by 92, who promptly jumped on Jackson’s back. It was a likely first down if Jackson hadn’t been trying to carry 400 pounds while he ran. Butler hit 54 at the 2nd level. Walker drove 99 3 yards. Schouman did enough to keep 95 ouf of the lane and Fine did another great job on 55.
Run 26 Lynch -1 yards through left C gap against 8 man front
Peters pushed 93 back 2 yards. Dock was pushed back 1 yard by 92. Preston went to the 2nd level and didn’t block anyone. He did watch 52 run right past him. Butler pulled and popped a filling 21 in the hole. Walker locked up 99. McIntyre danced with 55, neither making much contact. Fine did a good job at first on 95 but he did get in on the tackle.
Drive killed by Preston on the 2nd down play.
Drive 10
Run 27 Lynch 14 yards through right C gap
Peters blocked 95 and Dock blocked 9. Preston and Butler doubled 92. 99 slid off of Walker’s block and almost had a TFL. Royal never really blocked anyone.
Run 28 Lynch 3 yards through left B gap
Peters didn’t get much push on 97. Dock went to the 2nd level and pretended he was a DT and 52 was Preston. Immediately after the snap 92 slammed his arm down on Preston’s back dropping him to the ground. Butler thought he’d be helping Preston and instead had to jump over Preston and ride 92 down the line. Walker pushed 99 down the line. Fine did a solid job on 55. 55, by the way, was offsides but no flag was thrown.
Pass 25 Lynch 10 yards
Schouman had a fantastic block on 55 to let Lynch make it to the sticks.
Run 29 Jackson 1 yard through the A gap
Peters drove 97 4 yards. Dock went to the 2nd level and hit 54. Preston got no push on 71. Butler blocked 99 and Walker locked up 55. Fine had a good block on 95. McIntyre blocked 52 but he was still in on the tackle.
Pass 26 Jackson 3 yards
Preston was holding and flagged for it. To make matters worse, he still didn’t stop 71 from getting to Edwards. Plus, he pushed the Bills out of field goal range. Well done.
Pass 27 INC
Edwards waited until the coverage had a chance to get next to Royal before throwing the ball because it wouldn’t have been fair to throw to a wide open guy. He had 4 seconds but never even looked to his left
Pass 28 Lynch -5 yards
Edwards again didn’t look to his left.
Drive killed by Preston’s holding penalty
Drive 11
Run 30 Lynch 3 yards through left B gap
Peters got a good push on 97 and then handed him off to Dock, who kept him moving. Peters meanwhile switched to blocking 54. Preston was shoved back 2 yards by 92. Butler helped with 92 and Walker kept 99 out of the play. Fine did another good job on 95 and rode him down at the end of the play. McIntyre did no particular good.
Pass 29 Johnson 10 yard
Run 31 Lynch 6 yards through the A gap
Peters locked up 97 and drove him 3 yards. He kept with him when he tried to turn away from the block. Dock wiped 52 out of the hole and flattened him. Preston held his ground against 92—no push either way. Butler went to the 2nd level and took out 54. Walker locked up 99. At the end of the play, 99 raised his arms in frustration—he wasn’t held, though he whined about it later. Schouman got an okay block on 95. Fine, meanwhile, never let 55 get off the line.
Run 32 Lynch 28 yards through right B gap
Peters drove 93 6 yards and kept him from chasing Lynch. Dock helped with 92 and then drove 54 3 yards. Right after Dock left Preston alone, 92 got around him and hit Lynch in the backfield—almost a TFL. Butler drove 52 8 yards while Walker drove 99 7 yards. Fine put 95 down and Schouman did a good job on 55.
Run 33 Edwards 1 yard TD
Peters took 93 into the endzone. Dock and Preston took 92 into the endzone. Butler and Walker got no push at all.
Drive ended in a TD
Drive 12
Pass 30 Royal 22 yards
Run 34 Lynch 2 yards through right B gap
Peters got a 3 yard push on 97. Dock helped with 92 and then hit 52. Preston was dumped by 92 who made the tackle. Butler turned 99 out of the lane. Walker tried to get 54 at the 2nd level but wasn’t fast enough. Fine did an okay job on 55 but he was in on tackle. 95 beat Schouman’s block almost immediately. Lynch had room to roam on the left and would have had more yards if he could have cut it back—if, in other words, Preston hadn’t been beaten by 92.
Run 35 Lynch 2 yards through A gap
Peters bounced 97 off the line and then tried to get to 52. Dock pitched into 97 and turned him around completely. 92 destroyed Preston, meaning Lynch had to dodge both 92’s tackle and Preston’s crumpled body. Butler hit 54 at the 2nd level and drove him in a circle away from the play. Walker locked up 99 again, who complained (baselessly) about being held.
Run 36 Lynch 2 yards through left C gap against 8 man front.
Peters started on 97 and then went to block 54 but wasn’t fast enough. Dock kept 97 out of the play. Preston was crushed again by 92. Butler hit 52 at the 2nd level and kept him out of the play. Walker was beaten by 99, who got in on the tackle. Fine did a good job initially against 95 but was tossed aside and 95 was in on the tackle. McIntyre really didn’t block anyone.
Drive killed by Preston’s ineptitude and cowardly play calling.
Peters ended the game with 14 good run plays, 20 decent ones, 2 bad ones and no killed run plays. He had 1 good pass play, 26 decent ones, 3 bad ones, 1 killed pass play and was helped once.
Dock had 11 good run plays, 20 decent ones, 4 bad ones and no killed run plays. He had 2 good pass play, 26 decent ones, 2 bad ones, and 1 killed pass play.Preston had 2 good run plays, 15 decent ones, 19 bad ones and 4 killed run plays. He had 1 good pass play, 27 decent ones, 2 bad ones, and 1 killed pass play.
Butler had 8 good run plays, 23 decent ones, 5 bad ones and no killed run plays. He had 4 good pass play, 26 decent ones, 0 bad ones, and 0 killed pass play.
Walker had 8 good run plays, 24 decent ones, 4 bad ones and no killed run plays. He had 2 good pass play, 27 decent ones, 1 bad ones, and 0 killed pass play.
The Bills ran 9 times for 36 (4.0) yards through the left C gap, 9 times for 48 (5.3) yards through the left B gap, 12 times for 36 (3.9) yards through the A gap, 3 times for 31 (10.3) yards through the right B gap, and 3 times for 24 (8.0) yards through the right C gap. Basically, the team ran where it wanted to run in spite of Preston’s poor play. Imagine what the team could do with a real center!
Pounding the ball is in keeping with Jauron’s overall philosophy so look for the Bills to hammer away this Sunday in Kansas City. As you can see, 12 of the 36 (33%) runs went to the edges so I’d look for that to continue since it was well balanced with their B gap runs (12 of 36) and A gap runs (12 of 36). Hmmm….where is Buffalo going to run it on any given play? With no real tendency to study from this game the Chiefs will have to look at where the Bills have run it this year. The Bills, so far this year, have run left 96 times for 4.6 ypa, up the middle 80 times for 2.9 ypa, and to the right 70 times for 4.1 ypa. So, yeah, Buffalo likes to run left for the obvious reason that they get their highest ypa there. However, the Bills have committed to pounding it up the middle more often than they have run right even though they don’t get as good of a return. Why? It makes defenses play honestly and over time that pays off in big run plays to the outside.
Also, I read somewhere on the page a discussion about whether it’s novel that Edwards is facing 7-8 man coverage schemes. If Edwards and the coaches aren’t preparing for 7-8 man coverage schemes then they’re idiots. 4 consecutive opponents have used the exact same overall defense and gotten the exact same result—a win. What’s the 5th defense going to do? Duh! Kids with cognitive disabilities are smart enough to catch on to that sort of pattern. Yes, you can say the Dolphins were unorthodox since they were the first but by the middle of the Jets game Edwards and the coaches should have had it figured out. I’d be amazed if the Chiefs do anything other than drop 7-8 into coverage a minimum of 80% of the time.
Happy Turkey Day everyone.
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I voted all of it because I wrote it....
….though, technically, I didn’t really read what I typed.
by Ron From NM on Nov 22, 2008 4:22 PM EST 0 recs
Great Ron
Ron,
I only read the paragraphs but I think you do well on those too! I agree that Buffalo will address Center in Free Agency and the Draft. If you’ve read some of my other posts, my dream scenario is Matt Birk from the Vikes for a year or two and a mid-late round selection in April that we develop into our next center. Too much money has already been put into our O Line to just keep throwing money at it without drafting and developing some guys.
As for the 8 man fronts Edwards is facing, this should encourage us to dink and dunk more with the extended hand offs to Lynch and Jackson on swing passes. The screens won’t work but the underneath stuff will along with the runs. Hopefully we’ll get some play-action this week, too.
Look forward to reading these each week, but only the paragraphs and analysis. :-)
by MattRichWarren on Nov 22, 2008 4:47 PM EST 0 recs
I read it all, and was impressed as usual
Most of us could probably work this out like you do, but to be honest 99.99% of us are just to dang lazy to even THINK about attempting it.
Anyhow, so as it stood, Peters is back to form (finally) imaging what could have been if he had shown up for the whole offseason? I think he will this year because OBD will make him a deal where if he shows up for 90% of the offseason stuff he will see his big fat contract extension.
Fine has impressed me in his blocking ability too, and he seems to be able to grab the ball when its thrown to him in a way that doesn’t have him trying to scrape it off the ground. Now hopefully we can get rid of Royal and get a rookie pass catcher to pair up with Fine who has some size.
Dock and Butler seemed to play their normal good game on Monday despite trying to cover up for the dead roadkill animal that is Preston. I think your right about the game on Monday though Ron, that may have been DJ telling Preston his job was on the line with those runs up the middle. Well, looking forward to having a rookie center and another journeyman vet come in for 2 years till the rookie is up and running. I can dream of Alex Mack someday blowing up people in a Bills uni, but that may not happen. :-(
Fear the mighty helmet wearing gopher, he is coming for your soul....
by WABillsfan on Nov 22, 2008 5:06 PM EST 0 recs
Hey Ron I voted all of it,
that was until I realized that wasn’t the whole post.
Have fun over the holidays if we don’t here from ya!
The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ
by NYTXFAN on Nov 22, 2008 6:19 PM EST 0 recs
Duke Preston
how many centers can handle Shaun Rogers? none. No center in the National Football league can block Shaun rogers one on one. Even if you do double team him, you can’t completely take him out of the game. If you people honestly think matt birk can block shaun rogers one on one then you are wrong. yes, wrong.
This Sunday against the chiefs, the Bills do not face a premier interior defensive lineman. Duke Preston will have a great game, and all of you guys will be scratching your heads.
I really can’t believe you guys are already judging him after he has only played against Kris Jenkins, Vince Wilfork, and Shaun Rogers. Those are arguably the three most dominant nose guards in the NFL.
And the worst thing that you people argue is that we should draft a center early in the draft. WHAT?!?!? a freaking center? unbelievable. We need another outside linebacker and a defensive end.
After preston has a great game tomorrow i’m going to post on this. so just be ready.
I just want to comment on how dissapointed i’ve been by my fellow bills fans lately. Especially fans who want to get rid of dick jauron and get a new qb. If you want to be a fair weather fan buffalo isn’t for you.
by buffaloboy90 on Nov 23, 2008 12:48 AM EST 0 recs
bboy, I hope you're right about Preston
But I’ve never been impressed with his play (at center or guard). Also, I would rank center as a higher need than OLB, but under DE.
Ron, I read all of your analysis—I’ve been following it since you were posting something similar on another board. Please keep it up, even if it is a tad tardy at times. Too many people ignore arguably the most important unit on the field.
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
by NJBill on
Nov 23, 2008 2:58 AM EST
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Preston and Fowler have both shown to be ineffective against a 3 man front......
which interesting enough….has been the last 4 teams the Bills have faced………and also interesting is…ALL LOSSES…….Im not gonna be shocked one bit when Preston has a good game tomorrow….it doesnt matter though…..Both Preston and Fowler are their worst against teams when we need them to be their best…….against the folks in our own division…..Nothing short of Preston domination over the next 6 weeks will make me think otherwise.
Disappointment proves that expectations were mistaken.......ladies and gentlemen your 2008 Buffalo Bills.....
by norcaliangelsfan on
Nov 23, 2008 4:11 AM EST
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I somewhat agree with you
We do need to beat teams in our division. And that may require a better center. However, I would much prefer getting a proven free agent center than a rookie center highly in the draft. A rookie center most likely would not make an impact in his first year.
Also, you can’t expect a better center to be able to block vince wilfork or kris jenkins. Those two nose guards are just always going to make plays, they are great players. I think everyone here needs to except that the bills can’t take those noseguards out of the game with a better center. We should focus on other areas in the draft.
You are assuming that a better center will block wilfork and jenkins. That is just not true. You have to try to work around those players, that’s just how it is. Every team in the NFL struggles against the jets and patriots nose guards, some teams beat them because they work around them better, not because they block them extremely well.
by buffaloboy90 on
Nov 23, 2008 11:51 AM EST
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You are assuming that a better center will block wilfork and jenkins. That is just not true.
Well, it’s all relative. I wouldn’t expect anybody to perform consistently well against the best players in the league, but Matt Birk would perform infinitely better than Preston and Fowler have. I have been something of a Fowler defender to Ron. I’ve tried arguing in the past that he is bad, but not that bad. I think I made some good points, but you just cannot argue that Preston/Fowler are not some of the worst starting centers in the league and this line would perform much better with an average player manning the middle of the O-Line.
by kaisertown on
Nov 23, 2008 12:32 PM EST
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To:
All Bills fans that wanted to fire Jauron, bench Trent Edwards, cut Duke Preston, and throw in the towel.
Message:
There is still time for you fair weather fans to get back on the buffalo bandwagon!
From:
The guy that has been calling you fair weather fans all week :)
It’s weird how Kevin Mawae, supposedly a probowl CENTER, got blown up by Kris Jenkins today. I guess Duke Preston is not the only one who can’t block them.
It’s weird how Edwards learned from his past experience against the Browns and threw for 373 yds, threw for 2td’s and ran for 2td’s.
Its weird how Dick Jauron made the right decision for it on 4th and goal and got a touchdown.
In case you didn’t notice, this is a joke. It is not weird how those things happened. Because if you know anything about football, you would have known that those things would have happened.
by buffaloboy90 on
Nov 23, 2008 4:40 PM EST
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Your preaching to the choir. Other than Brian, I might be the most consistent Jauron defender who posts regularly. So please don’t lump all that stuff together when talking to me about Duke Preston. Preston had another terrible game today against a couple of average DTs. He isn’t a starting calibur player and never will be. Did you actually watch that NYJ vs. TENN game? I didn’t, but looking at the stats, it looks like Mawae held his own. Chris Johnson averaged 4.6 yards per carry and none of the Jets defensive lineman had a sack.
Also I think you put the wrong emphasis when calling Mawae a probowl CENTER. I think it would have made more of an impact to call him a PROBOWL center.
by kaisertown on
Nov 23, 2008 4:50 PM EST
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Yes, actually I did watch the Tennessee game during bills commercial breaks. And Jenkins dominated Mawae. Yea, i guess I could have emphasized the “probowl” part instead.
Preston definitely did not have a terrible game.
You said “looking at the stats, it looks like Mawae held his own. Chris Johnson averaged 4.6 yards per carry and none of the Jets defensive lineman had a sack.”
The Titans rushed for 45 yards. Oh, and Calvin Pace (a player on the JETS) had a SACK. So, you are WRONG about the Jets not registering a sack. And your logic on Chris Johnson’s 4.6 yards is ridiculous, when the titans could only run for 45 net yards the entire game.
However, if you do want to use that logic. The Bills rushed for a net total of 171 rushing yards at 4.5 yards a carry. And fred jackson had over 6.2 yards a carry. Hell, trent edwards had over 6.3 yards per carry.
I guess my post should have said:
To:
All Bills fans that wanted to fire Jauron, bench Trent Edwards, cut Duke Preston, OR throw in the towel.
by buffaloboy90 on
Nov 23, 2008 6:57 PM EST
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We will have to agree to disagree on how well of a game Preston had. I thought he was easily the Bills worst offensive player this week.
And your logic on Chris Johnson’s 4.6 yards is ridiculous, when the titans could only run for 45 net yards the entire game..
Well me and my friends could hold an NFL offense to zero yards rushing if they never ran the ball. The Titans only ran the ball 11 times. So in my opinion, they ran it pretty well when the coaches asked them to do it. What is ridiculous about that?
and Calvin Pace (a player on the JETS) had a SACK. So, you are WRONG about the Jets not registering a sack
I said none of the Jets defensive lineman had a sack and Pace plays an outside rush linebacker position and he got his sack off the edge and not on a blitz up the middle. So i was RIGHT about that one.
I only used the stats from the Jets game because I didn’t watch any of it. If you saw Mawae getting pushed around, then I will take your word for it. I realize that when Jenkins is playing his best that no one can really block him, but my original point was that there are different degrees of failure. Mawae’s struggles vs. Preston’s struggles against a stud is a relative comparison. It’s like the difference between getting a 60 on a test and failing or getting a 20 on a test and failing. Having just watched the highlights of the Jets, Titans game I can gaurantee you that Mawae performed much better against Jenkins than Preston did.
by kaisertown on
Nov 23, 2008 7:27 PM EST
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Good point about Calvin Pace. But in a 3-4 defense you almost have to consider him as a defensive lineman. It’s Mawae’s job to account for blitz pickups no matter where they come from.
I think we really should just agree to disagree.
I believe that the difference in a center is so minimal against top noseguards like Kris Jenkins that it is not worth drafting one highly. My evidence is that Kris Jenkins makes plays every game. Every single team in the NFL, no matter who their center is, has to scheme against him. If you watch tape, and compare how Duke Preston did against shaun rogers or Kris Jenkins, and how other people did I believe you will come to the same realization.
However, since you don’t watch tape on how other centers perform against those dominant nose guards, you wouldn’t know. That is why you pre-maturely suggest that we draft a better center. Like I said before, it’s like drafting a better DE because your current one is getting dominated by Walter Jones, despite the fact that the team has other needs. It doesn’t matter who ithe DE is, he will always get dominated by Walter Jones.
you could argue that a better DE would "put up a better fight against Walter Jones, but that impact is so minimal.
I see what you are saying. But I just honestly believe you think that because you have not seen Kris Jenkins and Shaun Rogers in other games.
by buffaloboy90 on
Nov 24, 2008 2:06 PM EST
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Preston definitely did have a terrible game against Jenkins...
….Wilfork, Rogers, a gimpy Miami NT and any number of DTs and DEs (both 3-4 and 4-3) while playing at RG and C. He’s just not good enough. Your argument that poor play should be excused because of the quality of the opposition is nonsense. Should Evans not be expected to make catches against top notch DBs? Should the Bills be expected to give up 100+ yards to top notch RBs? Should Jauron be expected to be outcoached by the Belicheats of the world? No, Buffalo’s players and coaches should be able to handle the opposition. That’s what winners do.
By the way, I’ve tracked just about every play over the past two seasons and neither Fowler nor Preston have done much better against DTs in 4-3s vs 3-4s. Face reality. It’s a position of dire need and one that Buffalo will address in the offseason. The Bills will be able to run so much better when the person playing center isn’t being mauled on a regular basis. Fowler had his chance and Jauron—a guy who values loyalty and character—decided that Fowler just wasn’t getting the job done. He’s gone. Preston hasn’t been any better in his stead. Ergo, Preston is gone, too. Remember, Preston already lost his starting gig (RG) based on the strength of exactly one preseason performance by Brad Butler. Jauron was looking for a reason to bench Preston then. Why do you think he’s looking for a reason to keep him in the starting lineup now?
Also, if a RB is picking up good yardage per carry and the coach chooses not to run him is it the center’s fault? I’d say that’s the coach’s fault, not the fault of the center or anyone else on the field…unless the QB is calling audibles that avoid the run…which would still be a coaching issue since the coach can yank the QB’s chain if he’s passing more than the coach thinks he should.
I don’t know that many fans on this board advocated benching Edwards. Losman is a goner and everyone knows it. All playing him does is help/hurt the contract he gets from some other team in the offseason. Even a couple of wins wouldn’t help Buffalo in the long run if it came at the expense of Edwards’ development.
I didn’t get to see the game though I kept up with it sporadically on my Crackberry between flights. I’ll be very curious to see if the Chiefs played 8 man coverage schemes…and my guess is they did if Edwards had a bunch of runs. My internet access will be spotty this week so don’t take offense if I don’t respond quickly.
by Ron From NM on
Nov 23, 2008 8:58 PM EST
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the Chiefs didn’t drop 8 into coverage much, if at all. Thats the nature of a 4-3 though. They did drop their back 7 into coverage on almost every pass play.
by kaisertown on
Nov 23, 2008 9:14 PM EST
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In the case of Lee Evans, I don’t expect him to make plays when he is getting triple covered like he was in the browns game.
I think the Bills should handle their opposition. But I think it is immature to think that they can stop nose guards such as Shaun Rogers, Vince Wilfork, and Kris Jenkins by simply getting a better center. That is just not going to happen. Those three nose guards i just named are impact players in every single game they play in, including in games with probowl centers. What i am saying is that the Bills need to learn how to better work around those players. Just like they need to work around the the triple coverages on Lee Evans.
Better centers may be able to put up “better fights”, but I really don’t think it makes that much of a difference. Those guys just dominate every game.
Let me put it this way. If the Bills are playing the Seahawks and they can’t get any pass rush on Matt Hasselback from the blind side from their defensive end, should they draft a new one? Not necesarrilly. Walter Jones is the left tackle for the Seahawks rarely allows sacks to ANYONE. Instead of trying to get a better defensive end, why not try to attack the seahawks in a different way? You just have to accept that Walter Jones is going to block the defensive end, no matter who it is. Just like you have to accept that shaun rogers, vince wilfork, and kris jenkins are not going to be taken out of a game.
by buffaloboy90 on
Nov 23, 2008 9:54 PM EST
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Wilfork, Rogers and Jenkins don’t dominate every game they play. How much of an impact did Wilfork have in the Super Bowl? The Giants, who have a better center than Buffalo, didn’t allow him to dominate their line.
It’s not ‘immature’ (or any other condescending term) to think that better players are key to mitigating the impact of guys like Wilfork. Preston is not a starting caliber center and neither is Fowler. Buffalo has ignored the position for the past several seasons with predictable results.
The fact that Wilfork and now Jenkins live in the AFC East should be all the motivation the Bills need to upgrade their talent at center.
by Ron From NM on
Nov 29, 2008 6:53 PM EST
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Dude, stop posting the same crap everywhere. Come on.
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on
Nov 23, 2008 5:17 PM EST
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sry about that, I won’t do that anymore. I’ll only post the “crap” on one board.
by buffaloboy90 on
Nov 23, 2008 6:59 PM EST
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It’s not crap; it just only needs to be in one place. :)
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on
Nov 23, 2008 8:01 PM EST
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Peters
was so visible out there Monday. He finished EVERY play, had a swagger about him, and wanted to dominate his opponent. That’s what playing on MNF does to a team. Unfortunately that didn’t translate to smart play calling early, or Edwards tucking the ball and running against those 8 man coverages.
Preston – Why something here wasn’t addressed last off-season who knows. But clearly, when playing 3-4 defenses in our division, we NEED a center that can handle these NT’s and not collapse the pocket every time. It clearly is our 2nd need right behind a Pass-Catching TE IMO.
Great job Ron, I really appreciate these write ups as I’m such a rube I love trying to analyze the x’s and o’s of the line. Greatly appreciated. Now let’s go get a W TODAY!
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Nov 23, 2008 8:36 AM EST 0 recs
I really appreciate these write ups as I’m such a rube I love trying to analyze the x’s and o’s of the line
haha. Ditto.
by kaisertown on
Nov 23, 2008 12:38 PM EST
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Q
Ron: You do such a good job analyzing the O-line. This is more a QB question but related to the O-line indirectly. Do you see any tendancies by Edwards that leads opposing Defenses to believe run or pass. I read Brian’s solid analysis on Shotgun v. Under Center but I am curious if his footwork or other body movements were or are selling the run/pass. I wasn’t sure if you saw anything while breaking down the line.
Thank you for an interesting read. Wins v. KC/SF/Miami will put us back in the hunt. Those are wins I am referring to not close losses.
Is anyone esle excited to see McKelvin as a CB.
by Berg79 on Nov 23, 2008 11:26 AM EST 0 recs
As a life long, die hard Bills fan I hope we lose the rest of the way because........
It’s the ONLY way that we get rid of Jauron and most of his coaching staff! It was a mistake to hire him and the sooner we part ways the better. We need LEADERSHIP…….
by savedbychrist on Nov 23, 2008 12:00 PM EST 0 recs
What does this have to do with the offensive line?
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on
Nov 23, 2008 12:20 PM EST
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What is your definition of leadership?
In my eyes at least, Jauron is a great leader. He may not be a loud “ra-ra” type of guy, but he respects the players and LEADS by example. Furthermore, he is always so quick to give credit to others when times are good and blame himself when times are bad. He doesn’t point fingers.
by buffaloboy90 on
Nov 23, 2008 7:05 PM EST
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None of that matters until we part ways with our beloved coaching staff..........
No leadership=No super bowl
Bet on the jockey and not the horse, and right now we have NO FAITH in our jockey, and NEVER WILL!!
by savedbychrist on Nov 23, 2008 12:32 PM EST 0 recs
If by “we” you mean “you”, then sure.
And if none of this matters, why not put your thoughts in a FanPost instead of changing the subject on Ron? :)
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on
Nov 23, 2008 12:49 PM EST
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Why so anal? Okay, me!! Have fun watching another debacle. Not changing anything on Ron! Kudos to him for all his hard work, and yes I agree with a lot of what he is writing but until we part ways with Jauron, then nothing will change.
by savedbychrist on Nov 23, 2008 12:52 PM EST 0 recs















