Distinction between getting beaten and giving the game away

by thefourwinds on Nov 3, 2008 2:49 PM EST Comment 17 comments

There's been a lot of talk after the last two Bills' losses about the Bills giving the game away themselves rather than getting beaten by other teams. I think this distinction is highly subjective and frankly doesn't produce much helpful analysis or discussion. On the contrary, it seems driven by homerism more than anything else.

Think back to the Bills' wins this season. One could argue the Seahawks gave away the game by poor tackling and by sloppiness (not paying attention on the fake field goal). The Jags also tackled poorly, and failed to score TDs on several drives when they either got only FGs or came away with nothing (like the Garrard INT to end the first half)

The Raiders had their game at the Ralph well in hand, and offensively "gave up" when they went 3-and-out to allow the Bills to drive and kick the winning FG.

The Rams also had their game with the Bills in solid shape but gave up a poor pick 6 to lose the lead.

The Chargers had three turnovers against the Bills. Didn't they give the game away?

I think it's a silly distinction to draw. Teams lose and win because of all these things. One could easily argue that the better team on that day was pressuring the other team into making those mistakes (the same thought process applies to committing penalties). Edwards' pick 6 against the Jets was forced by a pass rush that was superior to the pass blocking.

Last year, the Pats went 18-0, but then they lost the Super Bowl. Because of that, they are no longer the defending league champions. The Giants were the better team on that day. Simply put: you are exactly as good as your record shows (or, in the playoffs, you are only as good as your last win).

When Edwards has time, he makes good decisions with the ball. If the receivers get open faster, if the line provides more time, if the running game works better, the pick 6s won't happen. But all these things are happening because defenses are successfully poking their fingers in the Bills' weaknesses.

Why argue about such an unclear, unhelpful distinction?

This FanPost was written by a registered user of Buffalo Rumblings. Its views do not necessarily reflect the views of Rumblings' editorial staff, but are just as valued as our own.

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For me

It wasn’t for being objective. Just trying to put a positive spin on a crappy situation. We all know whats going on, but somtimes its nice to look on the bright side of things. if nothing else to get us all through week after two crappy losses.

thats all

by J2 on Nov 3, 2008 3:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I can definitely agree with optimism

I am an optimistic person. Seeing that the Bills were only a few plays away (or a few decisions away, whether they be coaches’ decisions or players’ decisions) from a W often is helpful and reason for optimism.

But there was definitely some arguing back and forth about whether the Dolphins and the Jets beat the Bills or whether the Bills beat themselves. That’s where I was saying, “Why argue about it?” Let’s discuss the strengths and weaknesses on the Bills, discuss how we think they could be improved, how much we think is due to injury, coaching, etc., which for the most part, is done excellently on this forum. I’ve said a couple times I think this is one of the best fan sites around.

by thefourwinds on Nov 3, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i never saw the arguement

just know that i said we definately gave those games away.

6 turnovers in two games doesn’t lead to victories

by J2 on Nov 3, 2008 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed about the turnovers

My point is that the Jets caused the turnovers. So did the Dolphins.

by thefourwinds on Nov 3, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A) I don’t think anyone is “arguing” about it; it’s just true.

B) This is a Bills fan site. I know for me, I only look at the Bills. I see it this way: when the Bills win, they’re letting the other team beat themselves. I’ve always viewed it that way. More often than not, teams lose because they do dumb things. The Bills started 5-1 by doing this, or overcoming the issue when they didn’t.

I get what you’re trying to say, and it’s an interesting discussion, but ultimately, the Bills aren’t going to win many more games if they keep making these errors.

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by Brian Galliford on Nov 3, 2008 3:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

A) There definitely was arguing about it.

B) I think they actually will win a few games even with some of those mistakes, against some of the weaker upcoming teams on the schedule. Against the stronger teams, they probably won’t.

by thefourwinds on Nov 3, 2008 3:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I seriously don’t remember any arguments about any topic other than Coach Jauron.

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by Brian Galliford on Nov 3, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Also...

I just personally think it’s far more interesting to discuss what we all think the Bills can do to overcome some of their most obvious weaknesses. For example, how to overcome the glaring weakness at C? Should they run more sweeps, pitches, ends around, counters, etc.? Should they move Peters to C and see if he can do any better?…ok, that was just a joke. These are the types of discussions that I think bring out the best analysis because people’s football knowledge and insight come out.

But to each his own. I personally just tire of scrolling through comment after comment of people arguing about a distinction that simply can’t objectively be made.

by thefourwinds on Nov 3, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

We’ll get into more of that stuff tomorrow, after I’ve had a chance to re-watch the game this evening.

Not that I’m particularly looking forward to doing that. Don’t be shocked if you hear about, say, 3 quarters of the game. :)

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by Brian Galliford on Nov 3, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Can’t say I’d have any desire to do film study of such a game. I suppose my attitude would be different if I actually played or coached on the team. I personally do like learning from mistakes. But in something like this, where I’m just a fan…no desire to watch losses over.

by thefourwinds on Nov 3, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As a player...

I’d think the hardest film to watch over would be a loss like the Chargers had against Denver where it happened because of such a poor officiating call (or the Raiders having to watch the “tuck rule” game).

by thefourwinds on Nov 3, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

FYI….I think you’ll see a lot of Dockery getting owned by Jenkins on the film….It wasn’t just Preston and Whittle getting abused….

by Kurupt on Nov 3, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think I’ll see a lot, but I can remember at least two plays where 66 was the culprit. Saw a lot of 65 on his ass, though.

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by Brian Galliford on Nov 3, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve gone on record saying MORE SWEEPS AND PITCHES!!!!

by Kurupt on Nov 3, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Totally confounding why they don't run more of those.

Look at the success they’ve had with those types of plays. If I cared too much about these games I’d be pulling my hair out on why they don’t get Lynch and Jackson into open space more with the running game (as well as the short passing they’re already using the RBs on).

by thefourwinds on Nov 3, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Could not agree with you more

I like Marshawn and Freddie in the backfield at the same time. Now, if we actually do sweep and/or pitch more, who is going to get the rock and on what side? Mix it up Turk. And play to our strengths.

everything goes better with bacon

by keuka121 on Nov 3, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A Loss is a Loss...

in my book, no matter how it happens. Turnovers don’t help. Also, the perceived lack (or the simple reality) of that “killer instinct” displayed by our coaching staff is at times disheartening. Just as Brian stated above (and many times prior) DJ would rather let the other team lose the game, rather than going out and winning it. That just won’t work when we are committing turnovers. That philosophy leads to us discussing us “giving the game away”. That applies to how we play D as well. the whole “bend, but don’t break” theorem I despise.

Side note noticed from the game: Trent is holding on to the ball waaaaayyyyyyyy to long. Maybe our guys aren’t getting open, but damn!

by MonStarr_716 on Nov 3, 2008 6:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs