The Call
We've talked about this on the a few seperate threads, but I feel we needed a post just focusing on it. In the interest of full disclosure let me say that I thought the it was a ridiculous play call. There have been some folks who have defended the call (if not the execution) expertly enough that I felt we should take a closer look at our opinions. Maybe this is just setting up a brand new pointless argument, but I hope we'll all at least feel better. I want to examine the possible outcomes that could be reasonably expected and weigh the costs and benefits.
Here goes nothing...
Situation: 2nd and 5. Ball on the BUF 27 yard line. 2:06 on the clock. Jets have used one timeout.
The Call: I-Form, TE (Derek Fine) strongside. Both Evans and Reed ran crossing ran drag patterns across the face of the LBs. Fine looked to be running a seam pattern. Play action to Lynch. It looks like McIntyre was to chip Bryan Thomas on the edge (number 99) and then release into the flat. He was picked up by Lynch.
It seems to me that Losman's initial read was not McIntyre in the flat, but rather Fine down the seam. This would've been dictated by coverage. The LBs were playing underneath on the crossing routes, and presumedly Fine would've been open behind them. To his credit, I believe that Losman felt the pressure from his blind side. His checkdown was McIntyre, who had not released and Losman clearly did not have a clean throwing lane. Losman rolled to get that lane, and to allow McIntyre time to open up. The rest you know.
If the Jets did not suspect a pass, they reacted very well to it. Note that David Harris (52) did not blitz until it was certain to be a pass. One would expect the LBs to attack the line of scrimmage, which they did not. Clearly the Jets guessed right
Scenarios: There's now way Schonert could know he would be out-called, so let's look at the situation itself and determine possible outcomes:
1. The Jets buy the play action (or if we somehow complete it anyways). First down, maybe more. If the Jets bit, then one or both of the crossing would've been open, and maybe Fine as well. The result would be a first down.
2. The Jets don't buy it, and Losman throws it away. Certainly light year better than what happened, but there was still a problem. There was six seconds before the half. Six seconds is a lot of time in football. Given that the NFL standard for protection is about three seconds, Losman would have to make the remainder with his legs or his arm. If he threw it away beforehand, its very likely that there would still be a second or two on the clock, giving the Jets what amounts to a free timeout.
3. The Jets don't buy it and Losman takes off with it. I have no idea what were the instructions given to Losman before the play, so it could very well be that he was meant to read the LBs and simply tuck and run if it wasn't there. This would most likely take the clock down to two minutes, and hopefully would've resulted in a first down, although positive yardage at all would be a win.
4. The Jets don't buy it and Losman gets sacked. Would most likely take the clock down to two minutes, but a conversion is unlikely on third down.
5. The Jets sell out on a run blitz. I tend to put less weight on this eventuality, because theoretically even Losman could make the read to get the ball out quickly. It does increase the chance of an off target pass which could be intercepted or incomplete. If he was forced to go hot and it was incomplete, it would certainly be before the two minute warning. Again, extra TO for the Jets.
Conclusions: Not sure I've persuaded or dissauded anyone from their stance, but leave me firmly in the 'horrible call' camp. I think the sticking point for me is the amount of time that would've been necessary to run off. With 3, maybe 4 seconds to run off the clock, an incomplete pass most likely would've still taking us to two minute warning. Not so at 6 seconds. It ultimately comes down to a complete gamble: that the Jets would buy the play action. It was an educated guess, and I like that Turk is willing to take chances, but I can't agree with it in light of how well we were running the ball, and the fact that it generally gave us poor options should it not take the Jets by surprise. Not then, not when we had it.
I'm sure this will be contentious, maybe without point, but I felt like we needed it in depth. So discuss!
This FanPost was written by a registered user of Buffalo Rumblings. Its views do not necessarily reflect the views of Rumblings' editorial staff, but are just as valued as our own.
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28 comments
Comments
Raises hand - i'll talk about that s***
couple things about your points i just want to comment on:
There was six seconds before the half. Six seconds is a lot of time in football. Given that the NFL standard for protection is about three seconds,
six seconds actually isn’t as much as you think – it was the right time.
if you watch the video – right when Losman fumbles there is 2:01 on the clock – which means if he would have thrown the ball at all or ran with it we would have hit the 2:00 easy.
and the fact that it generally gave us poor options should it not take the Jets by surprise
didn’t you say that Reed, Lee and Fine were all out on the pattern with our FB? Maybe I interperted this incorrectly, but if not – Lee and Reed are our money guys and having them out on patterns are actually good options.
i’m kind of out here on my own but i still stand strong that it wasn’t a horrible call. would a run have been preferred? absolutely – but come on – you have to keep their defense honest. it was a playaction call to get the first down – TO WIN THE GAME. because the game would have been over for all intents and purposes
the rest of the article should say – what if the bills would have ran it twice and punted then Favre goes down the field and scores a TD or FG to put into OT? because that is also a possiblity
after 5 or 6 straight runs – i can’t disagree with the call. wish for a run? yes. think its a horrible call – absolutely not.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Dec 15, 2008 3:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Again, it was 2nd and 5
We were dominating the line of scrimmage on run plays. If you want to keep them honest, do it on 3rd down IF YOU HAVE TO! I can’t imagine why you would to give JP another chance to fumble or throw a pick at such a critical spot on the field and point in the game.
by Joe P. on Dec 15, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
If it’s 3rd and 8 or 2nd and 12, it makes some sense, but not 2nd and 5 with a good running game all day. Especially with JP Losman at QB…
~K
by Kurupt on Dec 15, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
down and distance did not dictate this call – it was the time prior to the 2 minute warning.
does everyone want us to go into “the fairchild” when we have a lead?
fyi: the fairchild is run run pass punt
now Kurupt has the only point that makes sense to me –
with JP Losman at the QB
. everything else i can understand and agree with.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Dec 15, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Come on J2
In this case, a run would have almost certainly taken the clock past the 2 minute warning, so passing was still a stupid decision. Down and distance, having the lead, field position, time on the clock, JP’s history of fumbling and throwing picks, etc. should have all been factored into the decision. When you add it all up, the answer is to run the ball.
by Joe P. on Dec 15, 2008 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MY WHOLE PROBLEM with the call is WHY did Schonert/Jauron wait
UNTIL (Q&()*^)&*(&(%)* 2 min to run a single play action??
MOTHER HUMPER!!!!!!! thats just incompetence……sorry but I KNOW I coulda called a better game than that.
PIPE DREAM: Jim Harbaugh for the Bills next head coach.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 15, 2008 6:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look, I am down with the call if one factor is different
Edwards is the bloody QB running the play and NOT JP LOSMAN. If JP were not in this equation AT ALL, I would be fine with that call. I trust Edwards to make this sort of pressure situation throw, not JP.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
by WABillsfan on Dec 15, 2008 9:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
typical arm-chair QB's
I don’t know how many times I’ve seen this. We are a bad team. Jauron went for the jugular. First off, Peters gave a huge ole to the back side blitzer. Secondly, either way JP has to hold onto the ball there. And thirdly, any good team gets a 1st down there. We are making WAAAAY TOO BIG OF A DEAL out of this whole nonsense. Our HC, grew some balls and wanted to end the game on offense. It ended in the worst possible scenario no thanks to Peters or JP. Get over it. People just keep piling on Jauron cuz of this, when if they execute that play they think it’s a great call. Just like against CLEVELAND, when we ran it 3 times, and people were bitchn cuz we didn’t throw it. It’s unreal.
I give Jauron all the credit in the world for calling that play. It was a play that later when they are in that same situation, they will know how to handle it better. JP can’t fumble there. He has to protect that football no matter what. J2 I got your back
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Dec 15, 2008 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We are making WAAAAY TOO BIG OF A DEAL out of this whole nonsense.
thanks boss
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Dec 15, 2008 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marv,
The two situations are not the same. JP was not even the QB vs the Browns. Situational awareness is the key here. You add up all the factors in this specific situation and it tells you this is not the time to give JP the chance to screw things up. It is risky enough allowing Preston to snap the ball to JP, let alone having JP throw it. Look, if you want to walk blindfolded across the street, are you more likely to get hit by a car at 3am or 5pm? Does the guy who tries it at 5pm have more balls or is he an idiot? It is really that simple.
by Joe P. on Dec 15, 2008 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no it isn't
what I’m saying if you watch any good team in the NFL they run PA and get the 1st down there. We didn’t cuz we can’t execute. Stop tearing Jauron a new one and just chalk it up to incompetent execution of a Pro Bowl LT and a loserman QB
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Dec 15, 2008 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Back to Joe’s point Marv, the two situations were not the same at all. Against Cleveland we were playing in intense wind and LOSING, in that situation a throw is more warranted. Against the Jets we were WINNING and up by at least a field goal. In situation A, conservative running, worst case scenario putting your kicker in a terrible spot to win, in situation B, conservative running, worst case scenario you force the other team to beat your defense.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
by poz on Dec 15, 2008 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta go with Poz and Joe P.
NO two situations are ever the same, no matter what the down distance and clock may be. The teams are different, the scores are different, and that means you MUST make adjustments for that. Great, so DJ was feeling his oats and wanted to go for the jugular, great. But here is where I question his and Turk’s intelligence. THEY LET LOSMAN TRY TO MAKE A PLAY! WHO THE H%LL DOES THAT! NO ONE!
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
by WABillsfan on Dec 15, 2008 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
no two situations are the same, but to be fair. Lindell’s kick was good from 55, so wind clearly wasn’t a factor. Marshawn was running for 6.5 yds a carry that game, so clearly they ran the ball there with the philosophy that why not since we had done it all game.
Then they are against the Jets, had won the trenches all game and were trying to ICE the game. I could argue that passing in the Jets game makes way more sense than in the Cleveland game. Either way, to think that this one call is reason to fire Jauron or a combo of some late game decisions is ludicrous. I’m so sick of hearing that Jauron is a terrible in game coach. He’s fine. It’s more the players than anything….actually to really pin point, it’s the QB. I just love how everyone is so good at armchair QB. Everyon says Jauron is Mr. Conservative. He was tring to “WIN THE GAME…HELLO YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME” As Herm Edwards to say.
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Dec 15, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And we've seen how well Herm has done at that hmmm?
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
by WABillsfan on Dec 16, 2008 2:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lindell’s kick was good from 55, so wind clearly wasn’t a factor.
You clearly don’t understand place kicking. The wind affects when the ball hooks, which is why the kick missed, even though it had the distance.
by thefourwinds on Dec 16, 2008 3:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand what you're saying Marv...
…but the call still didn’t make any sense. If you are going to play action, why have your primary receivers within five yards of the line of scrimmage? There are a lot of ways this call doesn’t make sense. I could see it if you’re running combo routes behind the LBs who theoretically had vacated the middle of the field. We’re not talking about a decent play call that just didn’t work out, there are several levels of problems with this play call.
by PozDispenser on Dec 16, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I watched the video
six seconds actually isn’t as much as you think – it was the right time.
if you watch the video – right when Losman fumbles there is 2:01 on the clock – which means if he would have thrown the ball at all or ran with it we would have hit the 2:00 easy.
Losman fumbled at 2:03, three seconds after the start of the play, and he was not far from the sideline. No way he could stay clear three seconds more.
by patamunzo on Dec 15, 2008 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
especially considering the HOMER clock operator.....give the situation with our timeout earlier in the game.
letting the clock run 3-4 seconds after the TO was called
PIPE DREAM: Jim Harbaugh for the Bills next head coach.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 15, 2008 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is no lie
I was watching the ref on the field wave his arms calling for time out. The clock kept running. even my Jet fan uncle said that about 4 seconds should have gone back on the clock.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
by sireric on Dec 15, 2008 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn’t referring to the receiving options on the play as I was our options if the Jets did not buy it. So if we didn’t have it open, then our options are limited to sack, scramble, incompletion. Scrambling would the only other option that may have put us into reasonable position to get the first down.
Losman did indeed throw the ball with one second, because he rolled to his right, however, thats not how it was designed. The purpose of the article was to examine possible outcomes without the knowledge of what the Jets were to call. My argument is, based I what I could see (and I certainly couldn’t be wrong), the play was not designed to eliminate the clock if the initial read was not there. All eggs in one basket. Thats my problem with it.
by PozDispenser on Dec 15, 2008 3:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Heh. I meant to say I COULD be wrong. Now I feel like a jerk. :)
by PozDispenser on Dec 15, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no – even DJ said it was about the time prior to the 2 minute warning. thats why the decision was made right there.
the coaches probably thought – worst case scenario – JP throws out of bounds. 2 minute warning then go from there. it would have been the 2 minute wwarning for sure. its not their fault the kid is horrible.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Dec 15, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FYI – i’m done on this topic.
I am going on the record as saying I agree with the call. I didn’t think it was horrible. I would have liked a run – but it was NOT a horrible call. It was aggressive, good timed for that call and it is the type of play most people have been begging for. A play to win the game.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Dec 15, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again, good call in my book if it wasn't JP making the play.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
by WABillsfan on Dec 15, 2008 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just read that. Thats fair. I’m still skeptical it would’ve taken up the entire time, but I have to trust in the professionals on that one.
by PozDispenser on Dec 15, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to write this post but I am glad someone else did.
Let me start by saying I thought the play call was not a bad play call. The worst case scenario happened as we know. Our coach, who we bash on for not having a pair, grew some and went for a win. You catch the defense off guard after they call a timeout by running play action in a situation that dictates a run. The directions to Losman probably went along the lines of “If it’s not a certain completion, throw it away or run with it.” So I don’t have a problem with that call or those directions. I have a problem with execution, something nobody but Marv is b*tching about.
Jason Peters, our supposed All-Pro Left Tackle whiffed on a block on the blitzing safety. I have been on his case since he held out and don’t know if I will get off of it until next year. Run or pass, Elam could have blown a play up in the backfield.
JP is rolling out to the right so if the play fake works everybody is in the box except him and he gets a couple yard pick up on a running play.
JP doesn’t know that Elam is matching him stride for stride because his “great” LT whiffed badly and thinks he has another half second before he gets hit so he brings the ball up to throw it but alas is too late.
I can’t believe that 6 seconds doesn’t come off the clock on any rollout play. The Bills had been running it effectively. The Jets should be selling out to stop the run for the last chance drive of Favre. The call may not be great, but it’s certainly not bad. JP (Losman) and JP (Jason Peters – coincidence????) are the reason that play blows up.
And that Madden guiy on the other post who says he does it all the time, also has the advantage of being able to see behind his QB, somethign Losman didn’t have. I will never defend Losman, but this play was Peters fault all the way.
by MattRichWarren on Dec 16, 2008 11:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
With you there on Peters. It was a big whiff and a huge reason for the result of the play.
Still don’t like the play call because of there being too many inherent things that could go wrong with it. One or two or three of them all did go wrong.
Then again, Elam could have caused a fumble in the backfield on a handoff, though it would have been harder than in the Cardinals game when the pressure came from right up the gut.
by thefourwinds on Dec 16, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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