Laying the foundation: Bills franchise cornerstones
by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 8:34 AM EST
in Buffalo Bills Opinion
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I tried, folks. I tried to write an article this morning that dealt with the Buffalo Bills' upcoming game in Denver against the Broncos. I tried, and I failed. As ecstatic as I am that Trent Edwards is (likely) returning to the lineup, the only thing the Bills will be playing for in this game is pride. I hate watching games where pride and paychecks are the sole motivators. So we'll let Kurupt handle the pre-game stuff with his weekly post tomorrow morning.
Instead, I'll use this morning to continue to pick your brains. What I'm looking for this morning is this: which current Bills players do you consider to be "franchise cornerstones" ? That is, which players - if any - do you view as building blocks to a promising future for this team? Your list may be dozens of players long or just a few; that's completely up to what's in your noodle. My list is a short one, and I present it to you now:
QB Trent Edwards: Yes, I still view Trent as the future of the quarterback position for this franchise. I view him as the present as well, even if the Bills end up looking for a new coach. I like his poise and his leadership; I also really like the fact that, despite his still being green at the position, the Bills are above .500 (10-9) in games he's finished through his first two seasons. (By contrast, Peyton Manning was 5-14 in his first 19 games; he's 110-46 since.) Injury and inconsistency concerns aside - but obviously not forgotten - this kid has a bright future. He'll turn 26 about half-way through the 2009 season.
LT Jason Peters: Forget public opinion. Forget his holdout (I know, it's pretty easy to hate the guy when he screwed his team for two months). Peters may be one of the most hated men on this Bills team, but that doesn't cover up the fact that he's just really flipping good. He's been the driving force behind Buffalo's re-discovered dominance (yes, dominance) on the ground over the past month-plus, and he's outstanding and consistent in pass protection. Pay the man - he's going to be great for a long time, and he'll only be 27 in a little over a month.
RB Marshawn Lynch: You don't have to consider him an "elite" back - whatever that means - for Lynch to make this type of a list. He's the embodiment of what this Bills team should be in all phases - do whatever it takes. Earn as much as possible. Never quit. Never complain. Be the best. Have fun. Players like Lynch are rare, and they're catalysts for whatever team employs their type. He's rare, and he's also really good. Kid's a keeper. Give him the ball! Oh, and he's young - he'll turn 23 just a few days before the 2009 NFL Draft.
CB Leodis McKelvin: He may be just a rookie - and it may have taken him a while to get going this year - but this kid has the goods to be outstanding for a long time. Whether he's playing cornerback or returning kicks, McKelvin is something that the Bills severely lack across the board - a playmaker. He's still green; he struggles taking angles in run support, and he's still a bit unorthodox (Dick Jauron's word) in coverage, routinely finding himself out of position and giving up big plays. Experience and technique work can fix that. McKelvin, who will turn 24 just prior to the start of the 2009 regular season, has a golden opportunity to make a big leap from talented rookie to star corner this off-season.
SS Donte Whitner: Just a few months older than McKelvin, Donte's been a disappointment in terms of statistical production and injury, but I remain convinced - though less so than a few months ago - that with a better defensive line, Whitner could be a stellar player in this league. He's also irrevocably the leader of this team's defense; he and Edwards share the role of "team leader". I'm a sucker for leaders as long as they improve on the field, and if the Bills can improve their front seven defensively, there's no reason to believe Whitner won't do just that. He remains on this list until further notice.
***
There are other names I considered. Ultimately, there just aren't many sure-fire building blocks on this team, and I left a lot of the veterans off of the list because, well, they're veterans. These five guys that I've listed are guys that I believe have an opportunity to re-shape the face of this organization. Every one of them has a lot to prove, but they've got the goods to deliver on their promise. (You may, of course, feel free to disagree with those sentiments.)
I'm sure there are names you'd like to submit to or subtract from this list. Have at it, folks. Let's talk about the future of the Buffalo Bills - without the redundant (yet not unfounded) coaching and front office dialogue, if you please.
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Everyone you mentioned is on my list and I would also add in there:
Brad Butler
Greer (if he’s back)
Poz – underwhelmed me at this point – but better line infront of him and he’s solid
Moorman
All of these guys should be on our team for a long time in my opinion and are basically solid in their assignments. Not spectacular – but we really don’t have very many spectacular players anyways.
Kyle Williams is also on the borderline for me – but I think another solid DT and he’d be perfect for a 3 man or 4 man rotation at the DT position. Considering his effort and tenacity.
We need more linemen (offensive and defensive) as our cornerstones because the trenches is where the games are won and lost.
Hopefully we’ll get a stud DT or DE in round 1 this year and can add them to our cornerstones.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
I was going to add: Poz, Butler, Kyle Williams also. The point being that unless you run a franchise named the New York Dirtbags Yankees, you can’t have a superstar at every position, you need quality players at some positions. these 3 guys most likely wont make any Pro-Bowls but they are solid players who will be cogs in the machine so to speak.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
Agreed
My list is Brians, plus J2s and like you sireric, I think Williams is indeed a cornerstone. Look what happened when we got Stroud, he went from a decent DT to a good DT, and all because of a talent upgrade next to him. What will happen if we get a space eater to spell Stroud and some real DEs? I think he could be very good then.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
I'm sad that i agree
I think your list is accurate Brian. I agree with J2 and think Moorman should be on there as well as Poz if we move him outside. I might add Lee on there as well by default bc of his contract. I would also throw Josh Reed on there as well. His tuffness and attitude are welcome on a team like ours. He’s not a # 2 receiver but every team needs a few guys like him. However, I was sad as i went through the roster and could only find 5 guys that were truly indespensible. We need more talent
I might add Lee on there as well by default bc of his contract.
By that logic, Aaron Schobel should be here, too. He’s not good enough, though.
I love Josh Reed, but I’m sorry, he’s not a franchise cornerstone – he’s merely a welcome addition that wouldn’t function if we didn’t have a Lee Evans to begin with.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
It is sad when...
you consider your punter one of your best players. Not that I disagree but I am just saying that it is sad.
Craig.
Good list and it's sad how few there are...
The other name I might have been added if he had more opportunity would be Steve Johnson. From his limited playing time I like what I’ve seen and I think that he could eventually replace Reed in the slot (assuming that’s where Reed should have been playing). However, he’s not at the same level as the other guys that were mentioned.
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
I actually thought about putting Steve Johnson in there too.
good point LuBar – how I didn’t have Lee in my list is dumbfounding. Lee should be in there.
I came back to this post and saw 3 head lines in a row with the words “sad” in them. When drafting in the top 15 for the past 10 years you’d think we’d have better players! but you’d think wrong.
it truly is sad. just for Brian – I won’t bring up why I think we don’t have the cornerstone pieces in place after drafting so high in the draft for this decade.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
Just for comparison purposes...
Let’s take the 1992 Buffalo Bills as the metric we want to reach. Not only is the team stocked with players to build around (in bold ), but the supporting cast is excellent as well. The asterisk’s indicate a pro-bowl player. Henry Jones was a first-team all-pro selection.
Offense
QB J Kelly*
RB T Thomas*
WR D Beebe
WR J Lofton
WR A Reed*
TE K McKeller
LT W Wolford*
LG J Ritcher*
C K Hull
RG G Parker
RT H Ballard*
Defense
LDE P Hansen
NT J Wright
RDE B Smith*
LOLB C Bennett*
LILB S Conlan
RILB C Bailey
ROLB D Talley
LCB K Jackson
RCB N Odomes*
SS H Jones+*
FS M Kelso
Special Teams
K S Christie
P C Mohr
PR C Hicks
KR K Davis (Back-up RB)
+ Steve Tasker
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
See, but I wouldn’t consider Ritcher, Parker, Ballard, Conlan, or Odomes “guys to build around”, because we went to Super Bowls without them. They were replaceable. Replaceable players, to me, are not “franchise cornerstones”.
But yes, there were more of them then, and that’s hardly a surprise.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
True, but...
…the O-line was franchise cornerstone as a unit. They did expertly work players in and out and but there was also continuity. Levy/Polian/Butler also used first-day draft picks on their linemen; Wolford and Ritcher were both first-round picks. This unit and the individual players were clearly one of the cornerstones of the teams building/maintenance plan. Also for years they had the talent they needed, not stop-gaps like Mike Gandy.
Also, I would argue that because the team had prior success, you could still add new young players to build around (ergo Conlan). I agree that Odoms was very good, but he was easily replaced by Thomas Smith a couple of years later.
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
As far as the O-Line goes, I ceded to you that Wolford and Hull – moreso Hull – were cornerstones. No argument here; both of those guys were awesome. The rest were good, but they weren’t in the same class as those two guys.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
the problem
with judging offensive lines is that when teams are losing they are considered bad and when teams are winning they are considered good. Every team that wins the Super Bowl, the next year all you hear about is how they have best line in football. Its honestly ridiculous. Its like nobody knows how to evaluate linemen talent in the media. Thank God for Ron. Its also hard to assign individual credit when the whole team is playing well to a position which has no recorded stats. I guess my point is that you can’t make the whole O-line cornerstones.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
what if every team that wins the superbowl, does have one of the best lines in football, and thats one of the reasons they won the superbowl?
thats ridiculous
then I guess every team that won the superbowl is also the best at every other position. I just think its unfair to the position to judge them like that
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Henry Jones was a first-team all-pro selection.
That just makes me laugh. Talk about the ultimate one time wonder. 8 INTs that year, 10 more total the rest of his career (10 years.) Tackles on a near constant decline.
by twoeightnine on Dec 20, 2008 1:30 AM EST up reply actions
I thought this was about cornerstones, not just good players....
Lynch is a cornerstone and Edwards might be. Peters will be when he gets his new deal this offseason and Butler might be. Poz is a cornerstone and Kyle Williams might be. Whitner is a cornerstone and McKelvin might be.
For me that’s 2 definite and 2 possible cornerstones on offense, 1 of each in the trenches and 1 of each in the glamour positions. That’s 2 definite and 2 possible cornerstones on defense, 1 of each in the front seven and 1 of each in the secondary.
I’m sure we’ll get into exactly which positions need to be upgraded in excruciating detail during the loooooooong off-season. Buffalo does have a core around which to bring in new players.
Wow, Whitner a cornerstone? To me, he has not been as disappointing as to some of you, but he also has not impressed me hugely. Good leadership, great versatility at different positions, but I wouldn’t necessarily call that cornerstone material. In baseball, that would be called a utility player.
by thefourwinds on Dec 20, 2008 1:22 AM EST up reply actions
My list is probably longer than yours Brian
1. Edwards
2. Lynch
3. Peters
4. Poz
5. Whitner
6. McKelvin
7. Evans
8. McGee (he’s played very well when healthy this year and is still in his prime)
9. Stroud (he’s played well enough this year to consider him for a few good years)
10. Hardy (jury’s still out on this bum, has the tools to be dominant)
11. Butler (Most prudent extension in the offseason)
12. Bell (seems like the heir apparent to Langston/Chambers)
13. Greer (if we resign him)\
As you can see, I believe we have legit players at a lot of positions. Just have to fill in the blanks around them. And get a f!%@ing center.
Wow. Honestly did not expect anyone to bring up Demetrius Bell’s name in this discussion. He’s not close to a franchise cornerstone. Might he one day be? Maybe. But he doesn’t belong in this discussion, because he hasn’t even played an NFL snap yet.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
Love the list, but...
..the only one I would add is Lee Evans.
Evans is quite possibly the best deep threat receiver I’ve ever seen. I know all the qualms about him not being a great route runner or catching the ball enough are out there (and believe me, I’ve shouted them myself), but I think with consistency from the quarterback position and a scheme that is willing to try and get him the ball a bit more, he could be a top 10 receiver in the league.
Think back to his 2006 year, I think that’s just the beginning of how good he can be, especially if we can put a “James Lofton” (referring to a previous post) next to him. Not even a great receiver needs to be opposite him, just someone above-average or serviceable. I think down the road if Hardy, Johnson, or both pan out, Evans could be a great “playmaker” for the offense like Mckelvin is for the D. Someone who may be not be ultra-reliable on every snap, but always has that ability and threat to take it to the house.
I like Evans, too. I agree that he’s a phenomenal deep threat. I just don’t view him as a #1 receiver, because he can’t function without help. Andre Johnson is a #1 receiver – he produces no matter who is playing quarterback or what mediocre receiver is “complementing” him. Evans isn’t that guy. I’ll always view a receiver as an accessory, rather than a cornerstone, unless said receiver is a guy like Johnson.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Fair enough,
but you said yourself that Whitner needs “help” from the front seven to be a cornerstone.
Now, I’m not denying that the safety position and the receiver position require different things to be successful, but guys like Bob Sanders, Troy Polamalu, et. al I would assume you would consider “cornerstones” as well. What if they are just functions of the outstanding defenses surrounding them, right? They may not be able to do what they do so well without guys like Freeney, Harrison, and the rest of the Steelers scary-good defense helping them.
I suppose it’s hard to compare because defense seems much more “team-oriented” while offensive skill positions rely on a lot of individual talent, but I think it’s unfair to demerit Evans because he needs some semblance of help or ability from the people he relies on while giving Whitner a free pass on his lack of playmaking because the rest of the defense hasn’t held up their end of the deal.
my other two cents.
I would take Matt Schaub and Kevin Walter over the guys we have at those positions in a heartbeat right now.
No argument here. Johnson’s been lights-out with Sage Rosenfels too, though.
(Although I guess you could make a killer counter-argument by saying that Evans had his best NFL season with Losman as his QB! :) )
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
You make a fair point. I do believe, however, that safety is a far more important position to an NFL team’s success than wide receiver. I don’t think I’m giving Whitner a free pass, either – I’ve stated numerous times, including here, that he needs to produce on the field, and he hasn’t come close to doing that. I left him here because he’s a great leader, but leadership can only take you so far.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Then
we definitely agree on this. Next year is put up or shut up time for Whitner. All this guaranteeing the playoffs and wanting to make Buffalo “the scariest place to play” has been put out there by Donte verbally, but I haven’t honestly seen one memorable play from him…well, maybe for his entire career. I mean, really? Wow. The #8 pick in the NFL Draft, ladies and gentlemen!
One more thing, though. Do you think that great safeties are more a product of their defensive front sevens, or do you think that great safeties make it so that defensive front sevens can be more agressive, and therefore, make more plays? I personally don’t have an answer for this, and I really just thought of it now while discussing this topic. I can’t think of one really good safety that doesn’t play on a “dominant” defense, so I can’t help but think “the chicken” or “the egg”, so to speak.
There are defenses – Baltimore’s is one of them – that is predicated on an aggressive front seven and stellar safety play. Corners will always be corners in my book, no matter the system, because their job doesn’t change drastically from system to system. Indy hasn’t had a great front seven, but Bob Sanders has made marginal players look pretty darned good. Meanwhile, guys like Dexter Jackson have been highly productive superstars in Tampa, where the front seven made their jobs infinitely easier.
There is a relationship between the two, but it works both ways. At least in my mind it does. :)
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Kevin Walter is a great #2 receiver and Matt Schaub is a very good quarterback. As of right now Lee Evans doesn’t have either. I don’t think thats a fair comparison at all Brian.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
KEVIN WALTERS!
That guy helped me win my fantasy league!
It is when you consider that this isn’t the first year that Andre Johnson has been productive… he’s had great seasons pretty much EVERY YEAR since his rookie season. He was good with David Carr, for crying out loud!
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
i'd agree if...
we have a qb who can deliver the deep ball on a regular basis. that year that evan had the gaudy numbers, i recall him having quite a few 3-4 reception a game, but one of them would be an 80 yard bomb. he is not big, so he will never get physical and overpower his covers. he sure as heck will burn them down the field if given the chance, though. brian has a good point about evans not being a true number one in that sense.
don’t think hardy will fit that bill either. seems a little slow but with soft hands and vertical. he should be the red zone target we were hoping and could be a possession guy on the short to medium range but he needs a little more bulk i think.
Intimidating cornerstones
I think that in order to be a true cornerstone you have to scare the opposition. We need guys that the other team is always looking out for because if they don’t, its gonna hurt physically on defense and blow up the scorebored on offense.
The only person I see like that currently is Beastmode. Defenses know they better be ready to bring it or they will be embarrased. And God help you if catch one of his stiff arms.The way that guy runs is inspiring to both the defense and offense.
Jason Peters is kind of a mauler but I would like to see him play nastier. There have been times I see him 5 yards upfield looking to hit somebody and I love it. I want DE to hate lining up against him because they know its gonna be a long afternoon.
I
wish Donte was like that, but i’m not sure he will get to that level. Yes the front 7 could be better but when i look at the Ed Reeds and the troy Polomalu’s of the game he is not near their levels. Offenses know that if you don’t play sound, flawless football, those guys will come up with the ball.
Leodis is young so i am giving him a pass but i need him to get to Nnamdi Asomugha level. Teams need to be afraid to throw to him, and in Leodis case kick to him either.
Finally Trent, I think Trent has shown signs of being a scary opponent. He is good in the fourth quarter and i think teams don’t really want to give him the ball for the last drive of the game bc he has won games before. That being said, I would like to see teams scared to defend him. He’s not there yet but i do believe he will get there soon.
Your definition of what makes a player a franchise cornerstone is the closest one I’ve heard to what I’m operating from yet. (That was a weird sentence.)
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
I agree. Why on earth is your list so much longer than LuBAR’s?
Here’s my list:
Definites:
Lynch
Maybes:
Edwards
Evans
Poz
McKelvin
by thefourwinds on Dec 20, 2008 1:29 AM EST up reply actions
Whoops. Meant to have Peters in there as a “maybe.”
by thefourwinds on Dec 20, 2008 1:30 AM EST up reply actions
Why would Peters be a “maybe”? I consider him the best player on the team at one of its top five most important positions. Peters could literally play for every other team in the league.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 20, 2008 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
I was going to say that his me-first attitude was too detrimental and made him a nagging liability in one sense, but then I thought, “Would I think the same thing about S. Jackson on the Rams?” I suppose I would still call Jackson a cornerstone for the Rams, so by my logic Peters would be too.
However, Peters did have an awful habit of having his mistakes this year really hurt the team (penalties that nullified long gains, whiffs on blocks that caused lost fumbles (and even a lost game at the Jets), etc.).
I know people like me were harder on Peters for his mistakes this year than on other players, but, man, Peters’ mistakes always seemed to be killers this year.
by thefourwinds on Dec 20, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Well said,
especially the part about Donte.
I don’t think anyone “gameplans” for Donte the way they absolutely have to for guys like Reed and Polamalu. I want someone that puts fear into an opposing head coach when he is reviewing film, someone who can stare down Tom Brady and not be afraid of him or his eye black, someone who has the confidence in his playmaking ability to roam the field and lay a nasty hit on somebody. Donte hasn’t been any of these things so far.
Wow, I voted for Poz in our most disappointing player poll, perhaps I’m now realizing I should have voted for Donte!
I like Donte but....
Everytime i get to see Steelers or Ravens games Reed and Polomalu are getting interceptions or near interceptions. No one has ever used the term ball hawk with Donte. He is alway reacting to a play instead of making the play. I will give it to him though, besides him i don’t see anyone else being vocal on that D, except for Kelsey when he’s on Celino and Barnes commercials
The argument people have been making is that, with a better pass rush, Donte will be able to make big plays ala Polomalualualualu . Though I’m not completely sold on Whitner, it’s a legitimate point. The defense surely missed him when he was injured recently. .
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
I don't know if a pass rush will cure what ails him either
I’m just saying that at least he is vocal out there. He actually seems to care about winning and trys to inspire his teammates, at least through his words
…amazing how effective he would be when the words and deeds align. Remember his guarantee?
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
Can't blame him for trying
I always admire the guys heart. Maybe its just me but he seems like one of the only guys on the D i really feel wants to win and takes pride in being a Bill. I can’t remember the game but I liked the fact that he took the penalty for the late hit in the endzone. He made the guy think twice about show boating against the Bills.
Fine
Obviously, Fine doesn’t belong on this list right now. But I am hopeful that he will find himself on this list at the end of next year. I think he has looked real solid in the limited time he has played. I really like that he seems to contribute a bit every time he is in there and doesn’t make mistakes. He looks solid in blocking, and doesn’t have the dropsies.
…and he seems to push forward to gain an extra yard or two after contact. Honestly, my 10-year old daughter could tackle Royal.
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
Your 10-year old
daughter does not need to tackle Royal because he appears unable to catch any thing thrown at him. But I agree — she just needs to stick her foot out and he’ll fall. Fine just looks good blocking, getting extra yardage, and comfortable catching the ball.
Your 100% correct. I’m laughing and crying at the same time because this clown is our starting tight end!.
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
Not only that
even worse, Royal will fumble the football when she runs at him.
For the cardinal errors Royal committed, if I were Jauron, I’d have benched Royal since week9 for the rest of the season. I don’t know why the coaches don’t give such a stern message to the rest of the team. I guess that’s part of the problem.
Meanwhile, I do like Fine. With his skills and built, I kinda envisioned him to be a Fullback ever since he’s drafted. I think he can become a cornerstone with this shift in position, but he’s not tall enough nor fast enough to draw special attention from defense to “gameplan” against him at the TE position.
Bills fan half way around the world
Hah, what do you mean she could tackle Royal! She could LAY him out and get a forced fumble at the same time!
That dude has no ability to catch, hold onto the ball, or make a play for us. Honestly, my heart is in my mouth everytime the ball comes near that man, I just KNOW its all going to go to h$%l when it gets near him.
Honestly, I know we voted the most disappointing player, but there needs to be a “detroys a franchise” player post/poll. Royal may win hands down in that one!
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
Your comment is almost too funny to respond to. It is said that the best comedy has truth or tragedy at it’s core. For approximately $2.3 Mil this season, we all expected at least serviceable play. If I hear Jauron defend this guy one more time, I’m going to projectile vomit!
there needs to be a "detroys a franchise" player post/poll.
I like it! Brian—being the decent, positive guy that he is—might deem it a tad harsh; but who knows, there are two games left to screw up. It would be interesting if you included coaches, front office personnel and ownership in the poll as well.
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
You guys are going to get me in trouble. I’m going to wake up my kids laughing this hard!
by thefourwinds on Dec 20, 2008 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
My picks and remarks
Looking at the skills of the players I agree with your list, minus Whitner, plus Evans. On the other hand, considering the personality/charisma/leadership/commitment of the players, I would reconsider Whitner and strike off Peters – at least until he signs a new contract.
I have a weird gut feeling McKelvin will be another of a long list of good cornerbacks that will mature, excel and then leave Buffalo for greener pastures, but if he stays, he may be a defensive cornerstone.
What about Stroud? He may not be the dominant player of some years ago, but he is a very good player and person, and I think he will be around in the next years. He may be the (old) building block around which our D-line will be reshaped?
Finally, it is sad almost no one is considering Schobel for the list, me included.
My Jags fan friend...
….is pissed the Jags let Stroud go because Henderson hasn’t had a good year without him. Maybe we can slide another 3rd and 5th over to Jax for Henderson….
What I find remarkable is that Buffalo’s defense has been OK for the most part all year; the offense has not; but most of this list is offensive players. Go figure.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 12:30 PM EST reply actions
The whole is stronger than the sum of the parts. It gives me a bit of hope that some of the players we have on defense are ready to take the next step. I remember not being impressed with most of NE’s defense during their first Super Bowl season, but in retrospect, there were a lot of excellent players that were just beginning to emerge and weren’t recognized yet. Not that we’re there yet, but at least on the way maybe.
by PozDispenser on Dec 19, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I was about to post that its very telling that most peoples top 3 are Lynch, Edwards, and Peters. This should be all we need to see to know we are extremely close to fielding a very good offense if we only fix some leaks ala center, fullback, TE.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
No, we’re close to fielding a very good offense if and only if Edwards improves. JMO. :)
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
Ummm, and we get MUCH better playcalling
Trent does need to progress, but Turk also needs to remove his cranium from his rectum and realize that running out of I 90% of the time, and passing out of shotgun 90% of the time, and not running PA till the last few minutes of a game is a very poor way to run an O. Blame the players as much as you want Turk, but your ass better step up in the offseason to HELP them out.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
Having seen this season how Edwards works and studies, his improvement depends almost entirely on better coaching.
by thefourwinds on Dec 20, 2008 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
Franchise cornerstones....
Peters and Lynch for sure
Edwards, hopefully, oh how we hope
McKelvin, hopefully as well
Whtiner? Bleh. Why do you think he’d all of a sudden improve with better players in front of him? He’s not going to become a good tackler that takes good angles, nor will he prove to be a good cover guy out of nowhere. Sure, he’s a good leader, but so is Chris Kelsay. Bring something to the actual game instead of off the field for once Whitner! The Bills obviously consider this guy a cornerstone, though it’s pretty obvious he’s not good enough to truly be one.
Moorman? hahaha. Maybe 2-3 years ago. These days, he looks like your average NFL punter out there…
I don’t see any other cornerstones on this team. You might be able to consider guys like Butler, Evans and Poz, but I think those are replaceable parts in a way.
~K
Why do you think he’d all of a sudden improve with better players in front of him? He’s not going to become a good tackler that takes good angles, nor will he prove to be a good cover guy out of nowhere.
I didn’t say better player, I said better playmaker. I’m willing to put up with his issues as long as he’s making some big plays to counteract it. Not every player needs to be dominant; to contribute would be a step up from Whitner. A contributor that can lead? I consider that a franchise cornerstone.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
OK. What makes you think he can be a playmaker? 3 years in and we’re still waiting for big play #1. Maybe it’s the players in front of him, maybe it’s the scheme, but there’s no denying how little of an impact Whitner has on the game each week.
~K
I never said anything to the contrary, K – Whitner hasn’t made plays. All I’m saying is that if we improve in the front seven – which we VERY CLEARLY need to do – then Whitner MIGHT become a playmaker. I never, ever said it was a certainty. But he’s got the talent to do it.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
I’ll go back to reading comprehension 101. haha
I think we can all agree on that. Whitner has been a HUGE disappointment as an impact player in our secondary. When the best thing we can say about him is that he’s a good leader, I think it’s time for him to step up his play. Hopefully, we see improvement next year….
~K
Reading this, though, I just don’t see how you can even begin to think of him as a cornerstone. Obviously the team does. Clearly, though, he has never played like one, so how can he be.
Again, Duke Preston is a good leader….
by thefourwinds on Dec 20, 2008 1:38 AM EST up reply actions
Duke Preston is a leader?
I’ve never heard anyone say that before…
by Ron From NM on Dec 20, 2008 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not defending Whitner because I don’t think he is as good as a Sanders or Reed but I do think that him playing strong safety and the Bills having a leaky front seven forces him into the box so much that he cannot make plays. I am for the permanent switch to free safety for Whitner and let Bryan Scott who is playing great right now stay at strong safety. Ko Simpson will not be missed.
by ballinbills1315 on Dec 19, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
Injuries?
Didn’t Whitner suffer from a separated shoulder? Even though he is playing now, but does anyone know whether he’s fully recovered? I mean, could it be that he is not completely healed, and he’s actually toughing it out for the team? We saw how McGee performed against the Dolphins when he was not completely recovered from his injury.
Maybe I’m trying to find excuse for Whitner, but I’m just saying…..maybe…
Bills fan half way around the world
Cornerstones?
Lynch, Edwards, McKelvin, Peters, Evans (because of his contract), Kyle Williams, Youboty, and Steve Johnson. I believe Johnson will have us all forgetting about Hardy in due time…uh, James Hardy, you know, our #2 rookie pick in ‘08, the really tall, semi-violent one that can’t run routes or remember them; #81 I think.
How about Mike Singletary on our sidelines? You think training camp might look a bit different?
Is it smart – and I’m not calling you out here, just posing it as a general question – to count someone as a franchise cornerstone just because they make a lot of money? Nobody brings up Aaron Schobel here, and he’s got the second-largest contract on the team; the largest as of a couple months ago.
I consider Kyle Williams to be in the mold of “good player, not a guy to build around”. He’s not a guy that some fledgling team would say “sign this guy, because he’ll be our anchor on the interior for the next decade”. Good player; not a cornerstone in my mind.
Youboty’s hurt too often to be considered a cornerstone; hell, he’s hurt too often to be considered a good player. If he ever stays healthy for a full season, he’ll be pretty good; but again, I don’t consider him a cornerstone.
Johnson, maybe at some point, but certainly not right now.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
It's not smart, but it is desparate...
Admittedly, I stretched the definition of “cornerstone” when i developed the list above. I guess I consider a cornerstone to include young players with a load of potential, not just present studs. When you root for the Bills, one is forced to stretch the meaning many words. Williams is clearly a stretch, and Evans would be a great #2 receiver.
How about Mike Singletary on our sidelines? You think training camp might look a bit different?
I think there is only one cornerstone....
And that is Peters. I think there are a lot of nice building blocks, but those are nowhere near the same.
Good list. Edwards, Peters and Lynch for sure
Lynch is a unique back. I try to compare him to any other back I have ever seen and I cannot. And I started watching the NFL when Jim Brown took on Sam Huff. He has his own style. He can stop and slide in space as good as any I have seen. It is unreal how many would be tacklers just flat out miss him even in tight quarters. His stiff arm is potent. When he needs it, his first step is fast. ANd he sheds the first tackler so often. His TD runs inside the red zone are classic. Love to watch him run.
Evans is on the bubble for a cornerstone. We need to throw to him much more. If he isn’t getting 8-10 recepts a game, bad game plan. Trent needs to trust that Lee will catch the long one. Evans has the ability to time his run to have the ball come over his shoulder and block out the defender. He is very good at that and we need to take advantage of that. So smooth.
I don’t think Donte fits yet. Leo should get ahead of him soon as a playmaker. Love to see what Poz can do on the outside. We do need more playmakers on D.
LuBar’s sentence is right on. Scare the opposiotion.
everything goes better with a BIG MACK
No love for Fred
Who cares if hes the back up running back, in todays NFL you need to good runners, and I think Fred deserves at least consideration as a cornerstone.
He’s more vital to this offense, running and catching than any receiver or tight end not names Lee Evans.
On offense my list goes:
1. Edwards
2. Lynch (who is overrated, that is such bull)
3. Peters (I’ve never seen so much complaining about an elite LT in my life, be thankful we have one, and a young one at that!)
4. Fred Jackson
On defense
1. Leodis McKelvin (convinced will be the second coming of Deon Sanders)
2. Poz (young middle linebacker on a young team, whether hes up to the challenge or not he is already a cornerstone)
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Backup RB’s are a dime a dozen….Jackson is not a cornerstone….a solid player, yes. But he’s not someone that couldn’t be replaced rather easily…
~K
Yeah, what K said.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
Edwards
I don’t know if you can call something requiring so much hope a cornerstone.
I wouldn’t build a house on hope, and hope that it doesn’t fall down.
I think it more properly could be said that we NEED him to be a cornerstone, because we don’t have any other realistic choice in the near to medium future.
I’m not basing Edwards on hope; obviously, I hope he’ll be very good, but I’ve seen on-field indications that allowed me to put him on this list, too.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 19, 2008 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
My picks
Offense:
1. Edwards. He’s smart, he’s accurate, he stays calm under pressure, and he does a lot of the little things to succeed. He’s a winner.
2. Lynch. My favorite part of every Bills game the past two years has been watching Lynch disappear into a pile, and then making the camera man frantically re-adjust as he emerges from the other side of the pile.
3. Peters. I think this one is obvious. He’s an elite player, despite his early season struggles.
4. Evans. I debated this internally for a while, and I’m not sure I can logically defend it. Just my gut feeling.
Defense
1. Poz. Excellent in his fits, disciplined in coverage. I think we’ll see more big plays out of him as time goes on (remember, he’s only actually been on the field for 17 games). I think he could be our Bruschi.
2. McKelvin. He plays with fire and already made more plays this year than I was expecting out of him this year, at least defensively.
Right now, I am only considering three members to be cornerstones to this offense. Two are offensive monsters, previously mentioned by almost everyone else. Marshawn Lynch and Jason Peters are the two stalwarts that have made the grade. Now, there’s only one defensive player that I am going to consider disruptive and a force to be built around. His name is Marcus Stroud. He was dominant when he had John Henderson next to him, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he returned to form with a monster next to him again. I am split as to which way to go in the first round of the draft, but one thing is clear. One of the lines must be upgraded immediately with Buffalo’s first round pick. I will only be happy if Buffalo takes either Alex Mack, Terrence Cody, B.J. Raji, Max Unger, or Tyson Jackson. Anything else, even someone like Michael Crabtree, is a failure. We must upgrade the trenches before we can branch out towards other positions. Also, there are some who aren’t nearly on the cornerstone list, but with some experience, they could be great. I’m talking about you, Steve Johnson, Leodis McKelvin, and Paul Posluszny. But if we don’t get help in the trenches, none of that matters.
the only problem with Stroud
is that he is old. Which means if we build around him we better have a monster in the middle ready to immediately step in if Stroud loses his edge
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
getting our hands on a big DT via the draft isn’t a terrible idea, where have I heard of that before……?
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
I’m not so sure they should go there in the first round, though. I’d rather they go with Mack or Tyson Jackson. Out of those two, I’d probably prefer Mack.
Who said I was thinking of drafting him as a pass rusher, let alone a defensive end?
Jackson comes in at 6’5", 292 lbs. For career, has 86 total tackles, 16.5 tackles for losses and 14 sacks.
Take a look at this page. The grades on him imply he would be a much better run-stuffing DT with some pass-rushing ability than a he would as a defensive end. Considering he isn’t the best defensive end prospect, he may actually last until the second round. In that case, we could take Mack in the first and hope for Jackson to be there in the second.
Not a bad idea,
but barring the Bills targeting some free agent DEs, we really do need to draft a DE in round 1 or 2. I would be all for getting another DT somewhere in the 4th to 5th round.
"If you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter."
?
I’m sorry its Friday and I’m still in the office so my brain isn’t working at a fast clip. Are you talking about the McCargo pick?
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
I glad to see that my references aren’t so incredibly vauge that I lose everyone.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
No, I’ve never heard that before. I think you’re making that up.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
You're correct.
I forget which website I’m on sometimes. This is the one where we talk about cheerleaders, piano playing monkeys, and their uniforms – correct? If not, I apologize….
You are correct!
No need to apologize, you got it right. I have no idea what other blog you would want to go on, I mean where else can you have an intelligent converstion about piano playing monkeys??
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
I hate piano playing monkeys
If you don’t clap for them, they throw crap at you!
"If you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter."
then Ted Washington must be a relic...
some of these guys go on and on. For an interior lineman he ain’t so old.
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
My list
would not include Whitner. He is a very good locker room guy, but common the guy doesn’t make plays – ever. He doesn’t hit hard, can’t cover, and never seems to be the guy coming over to a DB’s side to intercept or knock a pass down. He is way over hyped by Bills fans, no one else around the country knows him, why would they? For whatever it’s worth here is my list, my only “controversial” guy is Jackson.
Edwards
Lynch
Jackson – almost every great team has two RB’s, and we have two. need to build the team around both.
Peters
Stroud
Evans
Poz
Hardy – i know, i know, but I think he is one of our building blocks
Mckelvin
I like poz
but agree he is not a cornerstone (at this point). gotta find a cornerstone LB, maybe in the draft. Cushing off the edge would be very cool. Also need a surprise or two from existing roster to emerge..my vote, Youboty and Johnson.
I like Poz also, But I say that he is a corner stone of this blog. I mean he is always on point, contributes a good argument and seems to be an all around nice guy. Besides anybody who could seemlessly transition from having Chuck Norris as his avatar to Steven Seagal cuddling with a panda is all right in my book.
Wait a minute which Poz are we talking about again?
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
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