State of the Bills Roster: Tight Ends
The "State of the Bills Roster" series trucks on! If you're new around these parts within the past nine months or so, this series is an off-season progression of posts in which we'll break down Buffalo's roster in-depth. From these discussions, we'll put together a "Community Needs List" in priority order, then begin researching potential free agent and draft acquisitions that will satisfy all of the Bills' needs as we perceive them.
Hey - at least this way, we're doing the job right. Right? Unlike a certain front office we're forced to support.
And now, we continue our foray into heavy-duty off-season work at Buffalo Rumblings. It's our "State of the Roster" series, off-season mode, and we'll continue the discussions by breaking down the situation at Buffalo's tight end position.
Previous installments: QB :: RB
Opening statement
How long has it been since the Buffalo Bills had a true impact player at the tight end position? If you're looking for relevance as the underlying means to impact, we'd have to venture back as far as 2001, when Jay Riemersma caught 53 passes and scored three touchdowns in a season in which Rob Johnson and Alex Van Pelt started eight games apiece at quarterback. Yes, it's been that bad at this position. This is one area offensively for Buffalo where making improvements this off-season should be the easiest.
#84 Robert Royal (starter)
6'4", 255 pounds
Age: 31 in May 2009
Contract status: 1 year remaining (UFA after 2009); owed $1.44M in base salaries
- Yuck. There are a handful of players whose play and demeanor represents the trifecta of 7-9 records this regime has put up, and Robert Royal is one of them. The little that he does provide to the offense - slightly above average run blocking - is negated by his stone hands and utter inability to make a difference in the passing game. With only one year left on his contract and a modest salary, Royal is one of a handful of players that have "release" written all over them as the Bills enter an off-season in which impact is a must. Needless to say, upgrading over Royal at starting tight end would be a "fresh of breath air", indeed.
#80 Derek Schouman
6'2", 233 pounds
Age: 24 in March 2009
Contract status: Exclusive Rights Free Agent
- I like Derek Schouman. Really, I do. He's one of those players that makes teams better simply because he's a role guy. He does whatever coaches ask of him, he's athletic enough to be passable in any phase of the game, and when he gets the ball in his hands, he's not completely inadequate. As an ERFA, Schouman will very likely be back at an extremely modest salary.
#86 Derek Fine
6'3", 245 pounds
Age: 26 in August 2009
Contract status: Entering second year of undisclosed, multi-year contract.
- When Derek Fine is your most athletically gifted tight end, you know you've got issues. That's not a knock on Fine, however; he's proven himself to be a very polished blocker and an underrated short-area receiver as a rookie. He'll never be a starting tight end in this league, but as a role player in this offense, he actually has the ability to be outstanding.
#87 Jonathan Stupar
6'3", 254 pounds
Age: 25 in July 2009
Contract status: Undisclosed.
- Pulled up to the active roster on November 29, Stupar's contributions were limited to special teams work. Still has practice squad eligibility, so he might be back for training camp next summer.
The Breakdown
Keepers: Fine, Schouman. Neither is an ideal tight end prospect, but ideally, they shouldn't have to be. Both can be contributors in subdued role situations, with Fine potentially being an elite second tight end option.
Extendables: None. Schouman should be re-signed, but he's not considered a guy who would get an extension instead of a tender.
Expendables: Stupar. He hasn't established himself with the team, so the team isn't going to hesitate in kicking him to the curb if a better option comes along.
Questionables: None.
Goners: Royal. If the Bills can cut Larry Tripplett, they can cut Robert Royal. Think happy thoughts!
What we need: How about a pass catcher? A young quarterback's best friend is his tight end. That's a cliche for a reason. Where would Tyler Thigpen be in Kansas City without Tony Gonzalez? Exactly. This Bills regime has to make the playoffs in 2009. In order to do this, Trent Edwards needs to improve by leaps and bounds. In order for him to do so, he needs an impact tight end. Did I mention that an impact tight end would free things up for players named Evans, Reed and Johnson? I don't want to sway your opinions - OK, maybe I do - but I'd place a receiving tight end amongst our top three biggest needs this off-season. Schouman and Fine take care of young, talented depth; let's go get impact.
That's it. I'm done with the easy stuff. Now it's on you, folks. Got any more tough love for Robert Royal to spew? Want to talk more about what a pleasant surprise Fine has been? Have any names of potential additions you'd like to throw into the ring? Have fun with this, and let's get brainstorming.
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A young quarterback’s best friend is his tight end.
Brian, you scared me with that line.
In reality, TE is a need but not a bigger need then a passing rushing DE, DT or OLB that can be disruptive. If we don’t address any of those positions via free agency then we could be drafting a TE in the mid to late rounds again.
A young quarterback's best friend could be James Hardy
if he could run routes or catch the friggin ball
I take issue with one thing. I think DT is one of the only strengths of our defense. Stroud and Kyle Williams would look a ton better if there was any kind of pressure from the outside. I think our needs look like this.
1. Center
2. Defensive End
3. Tight End
4. OLB/MLB (depends on how we intend to fix Poz.)
fix Poz? is he broken?
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
Poz is out of position. Poz can be an ALL-PRO stong side LB. Perhaps picking up an UFA like Vilma could vault Poz into the elite LB class.
That's...
a really funny thing to say because Vilma is an OLB out of position.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
I’m with you, I thought he had a really solid year. If he isn’t living up to expectations it is only because of the Poz Mania that followed his draft selection and expectations that were way too high.
exactly.......
people want ray lewis or brian urlacher……..well there’s a reason those guys are studs, the are one of a kind
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry man, go back and watch highlights on NFL.com. Poz consistently gets dominated. He never makes plays. He’s a horrific blitzer. Bad runners run around him. He’s constantly out of position. Im not looking for Urlacher or Ray Lewis. I’d take london fletcher for his “rookie” year, with the expectation that he’d grow. But we neither got an acceptable MLB, nor did we get one that looked like he could grow into a player.
I hope I’m wrong about his future prospects, but I’m not wrong about his performance this season. If I had the games all recorded I’d be more than happy to go bakc and break them down this offseason.
Anyone know if i can get them online?
$20.00 for the whole season....
Not sure where else though….
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
by MonStarr_716 on Dec 31, 2008 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
Well I disagree.......and I'll use Brian's reasoning when it came to Keith Ellison..
14th ranked Defense.
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 9:29 PM EST up reply actions
thats true, but i dont think it means anythign
the defense being average doesn’t mean every player is average. I maintain that he was one of our larger weakspots.
by JPH on Jan 1, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
He's also...
only in his 2nd year
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
Well technically his first
Last year doesn’t really count because of his injury
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
DE, LB, TE are much more of a Bills need than Center. The Bills could vault into a top ten team just by getting better play out of it’s front seven on defense and a decent TE.
And who would play Center then?
Do you WANT Preston or Fowler back? Do you want to be unable to run the damn ball on 3rd and short on the goal line because our C is getting blown 5 yards into the backfield and getting the RB hit before he can move? Or our QB getting pancaked becuase they couldn’t stop a 10 year old child with Rickett’s and Polio from beating them to the QB?
Fixing the D will be easier via FA than fixing the O line will be. The top FA centers will be resigned by their teams. Birk because AP won the rushing title, and Saturday because PEyton has seen what life is like without him and he’ll make sure Polian resigns him. Lastly, yes we could get a 2nd tier FA C, but they won’t be much of an improvement over the bums we got now.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
Jason Brown would fix our need at center. I’m assuming since you didn’t list him alongside Birk and Saturday, you consider him “second tier”.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Are you sure about that?
I haven’t seen the guy play. He wasn’t starting last season, which could mean any number of things. I’m not saying the guy isn’t the answer. He’s young and the Ravens generally do well with running the ball. Of course, the Bills started to do well down the stretch running the ball and that was in spite of Preston…
I would still prefer to keep Royal over Schouman. I know that won’t be a popular opinion, but I feel like Royal makes for a decent backup and a great 3rd TE. I feel like he has been overly criticized because he is a terrible starter just like Josh Reed got torn apart last offseason. Royal is a classic case of the grass is always greener thinking. Here is my logic for keeping Royal over Schouman:
I want the Bills to let Derek Fine start next year and draft the most athletic, upside filled, down the field and after the catch threat they can find in the early/middle rounds. I don’t care if the rookie can’t block anyone, I just want a pass catching playmaker. Assuming that he can’t block anyone and that is the reason why he is still available in the 3rd or 4th round, do you really want that rookie and 223 pound (according to buffalobills.com) Derek Schouman to be the only backups to Fine? What happens if Fine gets hurt again? You wouldn’t have a decent blocker at the position.
I think Royal would make for a solid backup and role player who can come in and block in multiple tight end sets or in short yardage if Fine isn’t around and can make the occasional play down the field which Schouman hasn’t really done (only 1 career catch over 20 yards).
Ideally we would handle the situation with a free agent (which there sadly aren’t any of), or a high draft pick (which I think would be better spent elsewhere). So I am totally on board for the Fine starts and splits time with a pass catching rookie experiment. I just think Royal is the better #3 TE if the choice is between him and Schouman.
I’m not sure I’m down with the idea of keeping a 31-year-old guy with one year left on his contract as a third tight end.
I’m not sure I’m down with the idea of Derek Fine starting, either. He’s not an impact guy.
I want impact.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you on two fronts. One is this could be the most important position of need, if Edwards doesn’t progress next year, we are in real trouble. I don’t want it to be because we simply would not add a tight end.
Secondly, we must find an “impact” guy. It can’t be 34 catches for 328 yds and one touchdown.
I’m not overly exicted about Fine starting either, but I would prefer Fine be the starter if it means that the other positions of need get substantial upgrades. I just think we can’t effectively upgrade TE, DE, C and OLB to the degree that I would like. If mostly ignoring one of those positions means that we can get big, big upgrades at the other 3, than I am OK with Fine starting and splitting time with an athletic rookie. I think that combo can become an impact tandem in a year or two if the rookie pans out.
I agree with you that it’s going to be difficult to substantially upgrade all four positions. I guess I’m on the flip side when I’m more comfortable with Keith Ellison as a starter than I am with Derek Fine. Edwards’ development is of the utmost importance next season if we’re going to make the playoffs. If we can upgrade DE, Ellison hasn’t been awful at linebacker.
Not saying I’m an advocate of Ellison starting, just that I’m on the flip side of your argument.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t have a problem with that either. If the Bills can get a legit threat at TE without it hurting the chances of landing a stud DE and a solid center, then I am all for a serious upgrade at TE. Just like Fine, I wouldn’t mind a year of Ellison starting if it meant big time upgrades at the other 3 positions of need.
yikes....you'd rather have Ellison start at SLB than Fine @ TE??????????
have you been hitting the egg nog early Brian?
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
I’d seriously like to know what everyone’s beef with Ellison is. Granted, he’s not a starter in this league, but he was a full-year starter on the 14th ranked defense. He rarely makes mistakes.
Fine, meanwhile, caught 10 passes for the league’s 25th ranked offense.
I’m sorry. I’m far more comfortable with Ellison in the lineup than I am with Fine.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Im not okay with a guy who has the body of Josh Reed playing LB........but thats just me
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Did his “Josh Reed body” prevent him from being average this season? He wasn’t bad, cali. Again – 14th ranked defense.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 4:49 PM EST up reply actions
Thats kinda the problem with this team though.......
we have alot of players who are “not bad” which is why our record is “not bad” @ 7-9
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Now, come on, we all know Ellison isn’t the best starter out there, but Brian’s point here is that not all needs will be able to be filled perfectly in one year. Brian is simply saying he’d rather have Ellison as a starter than FIne.
Me, personally, it would have been nice to have seen Fine for longer this season.
by thefourwinds on Dec 31, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
No argument here. My point is that I consider BOTH Fine and Ellison to be in the “not bad” category, and I’m MORE comfortable with the idea of Ellison starting than Fine. This whole discussion came as a result of the following hypothetical:
“If the Bills can fill 3 of their 4 big needs – C, DE, LB and TE – which position would you be most comfortable leaving untouched?” (It wasn’t exactly that, but it boils it down enough for the purposes of your argument). Kaiser said Fine; I said Ellison. I’d much rather draft a tight end at #11 than a linebacker, unless Aaron Curry were miraculously available.
Please note that in a perfect world, Ellison would enter 2009 as a reserve.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
I’d much rather draft a tight end at #11 than a linebacker, unless Aaron Curry were miraculously available.
I actually agree with you there.
I also feel the need to point out that part of the reason I would be more comfortable with Fine starting next year than Ellison is because I feel like you can do a rotation type situation with Fine and a pass catching rookie. I think you could get better production out of that than you could with Ellison. It’s a pretty close call though.
well....i understand your position.....but i disagree.......
I’d rather Fine start…….
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 7:31 PM EST up reply actions
my biggest problem with Ellison
is not that he’s below average (and I’m sticking to below, not average) it’s that he’s the most expendable of the three linebackers, and we need 1 of our Lb’s to be a playmaker, which neither Poz nor Mitchell is. He’s no better as an OLB than DiGiorgio was as a MLB, and that’s below average.
I think Mitchell was a playmaker this year. he had 4 sacks and 2 very important INTs. What kind of production are you looking for in a linebacker to get the title of playmaker?
i'd want him not to disappear in the middle of the season...
..during the big games against our divisional opponents and hopefully not lose the ability to tackle.
He made some big plays, i don’t take that away from him. But 4 sacks is decent, 20th among LB’s in the league, but its below other people who i wouldnt call playmakers.
It’s decent, but it’s not what you want from the guy who is supposed to be your best linebacker.
by JPH on Jan 1, 2009 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
make a big play.... but dont give it right back
Mitchell is always giving up big plays on his side. Perfect example last game was when he let the fullback from the Pats leak out untouched in the flats on his side for 20 yards…. 2 times in a row. He did have 2 big interceptions, but he was in the backfield numerous times and was unable to wrap up the quarterback most of the time
I think the main issue with Ellison is that he should be on the Weak side
I hope Crowell is back next year at SLB, which probably won’t happen now that DJ will be back then I would like to see Mitchell man the strong side and switch Ellison back to the Weak side. I think both players would benefit from that switch.
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
iI think we can find some = or a little to Royal for less money
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
by MonStarr_716 on Dec 31, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
*better
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
by MonStarr_716 on Dec 31, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
I would be OK with that. Cutting Royal and adding a mid-tier free agent who the team thinks is a little better is something I would totally support. The problem is finding that player. I think Scaife prices himself out of that group and LJ Smith and Jerramy Stevens will probably be a little too pricey too considering that Smith stinks almost as much as Royal and Stevens is as big of a jerk as there is in the entire league.
If someone would prefer a Justin Peele type of player then I am fine with that. My main (only) reasoning for keeping Royal in the first place is as a safety net considering the other two TEs on the roster (Fine and a rookie) will have almost zero experience.
Owen Daniels
I would give the kid big money to bring him in. He is a restricted free agent so a big contract would probably needed, in order to block the Titans from matching. Somewhere in the 5 years 23 million dollar range is what I am guessing it would take.
Daniels is an RFA, and considering his production, Houston is certain to tender him high, meaning we’d have to sacrifice a draft pick to get him, not to mention a big contract. I’d rather draft a guy.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
The problem there is that Daniels will get a high tender, possibly even a first round tender. The Bills will have to give up a high draft pick to sign Daniels.
I understand what you are saying, but how else would you suggest we get an impact player at the position? We can’t count on the draft, too many example’s of guys that don’t work out. Here is a chance to get a 26 year old player, proven to give you 70+ balls and 900 yards.
There’s no denying that Daniels would be a boon for Edwards. But as kaiser alluded to, we’d essentially be using our first-round draft pick on him, and then giving him a contract that would exceed #11 overall pick money. That’s not smart business, especially considering Daniels’ upside is limited. He’s a good, not great player. We need a great player with our top draft pick this year.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
I completely understand the risk, and we differ in that I think Daniels will be great for the next 5 years. He has good numbers now, but he will be great. And I would give up a first round pick for that. Which first round pick in the last 5 years would you not want to part with? ok, maybe Mckelvin.
I’m not sure if he’s no.11 overall great. Thats a potentially major talent you can bring in at that spot.
by PozDispenser on Dec 31, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
Where are you going with this?
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
I get what you are saying too, but I just don’t think a first round pick on Owen Daniels is the way to go. If he gets tendered lower than that, then I would get pretty interested. There is even a chance that Daniels gets the huge first AND third round tender which makes him untouchable.
I suggest not adding an impact player. I think we can draft a rookie in the 3rd or 4th round who could develop into an impact guy while providing glimpses with some big plays as a rookie. Fine can be an impact guy as a blocker. Those two combined could give the offense what it needs to be effective while the offseason is spent focusing on other things.
Yeah, I see what you are saying. The only difference between our opinions, is that I think we absolutely have to get a pass catching TE or we run the risk of ruining the Edwards project. I think it’s so important that it can’t be left to the 3rd or 4th round with hopes. But I respect your thoughts on it also.
Right again. We take a TE in the 3rd or 4th.
And I also hope it goes receiving skills FIRST.
everything goes better with a BIG MACK
I think he could contribute, but I think chances are good he re-ups in Tennessee. He is an example, though, of what a TE could do for Edwards – Kerry Collins loves throwing to Scaife.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve made it known publicly that I love OU’s Jermaine Gresham. I don’t think #11 is too high for him, but admit that he’s probably not my first choice at that spot, either.
If the Bills can trade down in the draft and pick up an extra pick or two, I wouldn’t hesitate at all to draft Gresham with our top pick. If he’s available, that is.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
You are killing me Brian!!!! TE via FA or in round 3 at the earliest....killing me!!!!
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
Haha, so sorry.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 1, 2009 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t by that Scaife is a impact TE unless you think that a dumpoff option can be an impact player. Scaife is essentially a FB in that offense. He averages 9.7 yards per catch, but he also averages 5.6 yards in YAC. So his average catch is 4 yards downfield. I honestly think Fine and Schouman could do for this offense what Scaife does in Tennessee if the coaches designed the plays that way.
I agree that Daniels would take too much to get and we will probably have to invest a high draft pick in a Dustin Keller type TE. I would like to see Oklahoma’s Jermaine Gresham in a Bills uniform should he declare for the draft- not only is he a receiving threat but supposedly blocks better than he is given credit for. If Gresham stays in school, Chase Coffman from Missouri could be a nice 2nd Rd option and is in the same mold as Dustin Keller. Brandon Pettigrew seems like a more likely selection by the FO though because he is a more balanced TE but can still catch and run.
so are you saying draft an impact TE? I just don’t think you can count on the draft, when you are in our situation of need. In addition drafting a TE in the second round, really puts us behind the 8 ball with all the other positions of need that the draft can help with ie; center, LB
What I am saying is in combination with the risk of drafting a rookie TE to be an impact player, and the domino effect it would have, just isn’t plausible.
I just think the draft is our best bet with FA looking so expensive. If we resign Angelo Crowell, which we certainly should, it would give us our best LB back AND eliminate a need going into FA/ the draft. I understand what you mean about risk, and center is a huge issue. Lets say that the draft stock of Alex Mack (Cal) and Jonathon Luigs (Arkansas) stays relatively the same from now until draft day. We could get Gresham in rd 1 if we comes out and Luigs in Rd 2, or Mack in Rd 1 and Coffman in Rd 2. Obviously im expecting a lot of a rookie TE but I dont see many other realistic options. That being said, if we could get Daniels from Houston without giving up a high draft pick I would be pumped.
I hesitate to add this...
…because I’m a little conflicted on this idea myself. But what Gonzalez? They were close to trading him last year, and they will have a new GM who’ll probably want to maximize his available resources.
Gonzalez turned down a trade here when we were 5-1 because he didn’t want to come here. I can’t imagine him changing his mind now that we’re 7-9 for a third straight year.
If Gonzo is released, it’s almost a virtual certainty that he ends up where he’s wanted to be all along – the Giants.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Its more in the new GM’s court though isn’t it? Does he have a no-trade clause?
by PozDispenser on Dec 31, 2008 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure if Gonzo has a no-trade clause or not. I do know that Gonzo has three years left on his deal and is owed $19.25 million in base salaries.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt they would release him at any rate. Unless Clark Hunt feels an obligation to do so for his service.
by PozDispenser on Dec 31, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
no he didn't
the fact is that Petersen wanted a 2nd and a 5th. Reportedly we offered a 2nd only. If the Bills offer enough they could still get Gonzalez. They would have to sweeten the pot. Say a 2nd round pick and then a conditional pick based on playing time and performance. I truly believe they could make it happen if they had the gumption to go after him and not take no for an answer.
MARVelous
Let me be perfectly clear about this: I have it from a solid source that, compensation aside, Gonzalez flat-out told Carl Peterson he didn’t want to play for Buffalo. When he heard this straight from Gonzo’s mouth, Peterson cut off negotiations with the Bills.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
well
i have a solid source that said if the Bills had given more than they wanted, which Buffalo has to do for anyone big time player to come to Buffalo, that Petersen would have indeed pulled the trigger. I was told Gonzalez had 2 teams he wanted to play for, but neither team showed any interest and Buffalo had the most interest. I’m not sure of the exact compensation, but Petersen’s asking price was too high and Buffalo bowed out.
MARVelous
and........
I have a source that the Whopper is indeed better than the Big Mac
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 3:56 PM EST up reply actions

Your source is Deion Sanders.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
The kept showing that commercial when he picked off a Bledsoe pass intended for McGahee.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
outing someones source is usually frowned upon
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
It was just a shot in the dark. My bad!
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
lol........im just giving you guff.......since you never give up YOUR sources ;)
lol…..
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Dec 31, 2008 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Draft a TE in Rd 4
Cut Royal, Keep Schouman and Fine and get Shawn Nelson, TE S Miss in Rd 4 to be our Vertical, seam stretcher TE. 4 year starter with 40 catch, 4 TD per year avg production. Good speed and RAC coupled with durability and 4 years of production.
Fine is the blocking TE, Nelson the playmaker and Schouman is hybrid look.
this is our #1
need IMO. Nothing will help this team more than a pass-catching TE, IMO. This position can do wonders for an offense. This position is vital to the offense moving forward big time in 2009. To have a pass-catching TE that can consistently beat Safeties and LB’s in coverage is a threat that we have not had in Buffalo for over a a decade.
A pass catching TE does the following:
1) runs seams routes that force the Safety to stay home in the middle of the field, thus allowing more 1:on:1 for our outside WR’s.
2) Gives a big target RIGHT in front of Trent’s eyes. The easiest throw for a QB is straight ahead between the hashes. A TE that can get open in the hashes is a great safety valve
3) Allows Josh Reed, to get either a LB or Nickel DB on him, where he can now exploit coverage or find a spot in the zone
4) RED ZONE OFFENSE – A pass catching TE forces double teams on play action passes forcing one on one coverage on guys like Evans and our RB’s. Matchups I would take any day. And if the TE gets single coverage, it is usually on a LB in the Red Zone which is a matchup a good pass-catching TE can exploit regularly.
This is a position that would drastically increase the Offense performance. It would make Trent better, Turk Schonert better, and all the other skill players on offense. Drafting a mid-round TE is not good enough IMO. We have to get an instant impact, which is why I prefer a trade or a veteran coming in. With Carl Petersen gone from KC, the loyalties to Gonzo aren’t as strong and John Clayton reported on WGR weeks back that Gonzalez would have gone to Buffalo if indeed the Bills offered what Carl Petersen wanted of a 2nd and a 5th.
Option 1 should be trading a 2nd round pick and a conditional pick based on Gonzo’s performance
Option 2 -Taking a TE in Round 1
Option 3 – Drafting one in Round 2
Option 4 – Trade for another viable TE
Look folks, I know we need a Center and a DE and another LB immediately. But, defenesively whether you like the scheme or not, we can hold teams down for the most part. We HAVE TO, MUST be able to score points regularly on offense. Without a big time help at TE, that will not happen and we will continue to struggle to score points against good defenses. We need a TE, and I for one think it would be the most impactful position to add to Buffalo’s roster if we get the right player
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Dec 31, 2008 2:33 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
pass rush help
is our most glaring weakness in my opinion. whether it is a rush OLB or a DE is irrelevent at this point. we need a defensive presence that will be disruptive and cause turnovers. this will in turn help our offense by shortening the field.
Marv, I think there are some TE’s in the draft that we can get in the 2nd or middle rounds that will be an upgrade (Coffman, Purvis (BC), James Casey (Rice)
I think we led the league in avg. drive start position this year....
Or at least at the end of week 16 we were…..and our inept offense still couldn’t put points on the board. Although I do think we need to find (draft or FA) a center before we do a TE, I DO NOT want another 2nd day TE. I agree completely with Marv’s post up there (rec’d it). A pure pass catching TE is so crucial to this team, most importantly Trent Edwards
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
by MonStarr_716 on Dec 31, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
Am I the only one?
I don’t think TE is that big of a need.
It seems to me like we all want to get 5 different positions with 1st/2nd round talent. Would I like a better TE? Absolutely. Do I want one any more than I want a C or DE? No. If FA solves enough of our needs, I would love to add a TE early in the draft. If there are good FA TEs I’d love to add one, but that depends on who the available FAs are.
Fine is a serviceable starter because he blocks like a madman. A team with a smashmouth run offense (which we could have with a starting caliber C) and a smart QB doesn’t need much of anything else on offense. I’d love to have Gonzo, but given our other needs (even if you don’t think Fine is a starter, he’s at least closer to being a starter than Fowler or Preston at C. You can argue about whether or not he’s closer than Kelsay or Ellison or other glaring needs) I just don’t think TE can be that high up on our priority list.
I think we may need to settle for drafting one in the mid rounds or picking up a backup quality guy in FA.
What?
Are you saying that unless we pick up a top tier TE we will decide not to retain Trent? Why?
Anyway, blocking (a good C, Fine) is more important to QBs than having a TE is. I don’t think Arizona has a top notch TE but Warner seems to be doing okay for himself.
I’m not saying that a TE wouldn’t help, but it isn’t at the top of my list of needs.
by Hopefulcynic on Dec 31, 2008 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
To me, pass catching TE = luxury pick. We are still sitting in coach!
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
Schouman hasn't shown much, but...
I’m convinced that thats partly that he isnt getting opportunities, because there’s no way that a Tight End can graduate from Boise State and not be able to catch the football.
And I like Fine. I’m in favor of a early-mid round pick like Chase Coffman. can’t block, can catch. Fine can do the blocking, let schouman be the backup.
A young quarterback's best friend is a _running game_.
While I have not watched the games up to my usual standard yet (thank you DVR), I think these are the Bills’ top 5 needs right now (I can almost guarantee these will change):
1. DE
2. C
3. DT
4. TE
5. LB
I really have no legitimate basis for this list, yet (I’ve got more film to watch). Just my gut instinct right now. I care more about the future than I care about 2009, if that makes any sense.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
We already have a running game…
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Then Edwards already has his best friend on the roster. Edwards LOVES Jauron, though. LOL!
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
if our coaches are going to insist on running up the middle most of the time,
we better get a dominant Center.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
Brian, that YouTube video (Breath of Fresh Air) was high quality. One of the funniest I’ve seen in a while.
I can’t even screw the phrase up right: Fresh of Breath Air!
by thefourwinds on Dec 31, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
I have called Royal “Fresh of Breath Air” ever since that came out last season.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
It’s almost like the reporter thought Royal’s screwup was so perfect he had to leave it in for more comedic value.
by thefourwinds on Dec 31, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Unless the Bills get lucky in the Draft
they will not improve the TE personnel in 2009. The free agency market has a poor selection of TE’s.We have to hope a Fine or Schouman steps up and gives the team some production out of that spot.
Yep. Not good TE’s in free agency. That’s why they should pursue a center hard in FA, a veteran pass rusher, and a linebacker, and then spend their top two picks on a DE and a TE. That’s seriously the most logical plan of attack for them this off-season. Surprise me, “inner circle”…
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Just want to be sure
A vet pass rusher in FA and then a DE in the draft?
What type of player do you have in mind as a vet pass rusher? A depth guy or do you want us to look for a starter in FA?
by Hopefulcynic on Dec 31, 2008 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
Bertrand Berry is the type of vet I’m thinking of. Mid-level with something left in the tank. Then draft a guy that’s one-dimensional and speedy, like Everette Brown.
I could live with entering ’09 with a five-man DE rotation of Schobel, Denney, Berry, Brown and Ellis…
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
If they follow your plan and get a C and DE in FA,
then we should LB or NT at 1st/2nd with TE in the 3rd.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
… but my plan was to get C, DE AND LB in free agency.
So then DE and TE in the draft, with a rotational, massive DT in the third.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 1, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
OK...lets do that then...now we just need to break into the cirlce
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
I agree that we should go after a DE in FA
Suggs will be leaving Baltimore this year, guaranteed. They have their hand full with Ray and Suggs will be walking. The question is how hungry are the Bills? I think Suggs would be a great addition to our team at DE.
I remain convinced that we cannot pass up on Alex Mack, this kid is really going to be something special. There is no other Center that even remotely comes close to him in Run-blocking abilities, he is a monster. If we are serious about becoming a power run team next year we need Alex Mack.
Getting Suggs would bring instant production on the DL, improve everyone around him.
I like Micheal Johnson in round 2 and I firmly believe that a guy like Travis Beckum could be available in the third.
I also think we need to upgrade our LB situation but that could easily be addressed by re-signing Crowell and shuffling positions around.
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
You’re guaranteeing that Suggs hits free agency? Why are you thinking that?
Ray Lewis made 6.5 mil last year and Suggs made 8.5 because he was franchised. The Ravens can give both of those guys pretty huge contracts and will still end up paying them less than that in yearly salary.
Suggs is only 26 years old and is part of the current and future core of that defense. With Lewis and McCallister getting up there in age and their key offensive players so young, I’m not sure they can afford to let somebody like Suggs walk.
Baltimore hasn’t been a big spender on free agents and hasn’t even been one to throw money at holding onto all of their own guys in recent years. They let Adalius Thomas, Tony Pashos and Jamal Lewis all walk after the 2006 season and only spent money outside of their own roster on McGahee (hahahahaha that was stupid). They were able to hold onto all of their players last year(backup LB Mike Smith was probably their biggest loss and I don’t think he even made a roster this year), but again, they didn’t aggressively take part in free agency (Willie Anderson, Jim Leonhard and Lorenzo Neal were their big offseason moves).
After not spending much for a couple of offseasons (probably because they were smart enough to look ahead and realize how many players have expiring contracts) they should have some money to spend this offseason. I already mentioned Lewis’ and Suggs’ big salaries that are coming off the books, but Bart Scott made 3.5 mil last year and is likely to leave. He is probably a little overrated and is largely a product of the great players around him and he opens his mouth a little too often and has ended up in the coach’s doghouse at various points over the last few seasons. Samari Rolli is scheduled to make over 4 mil this year too and is a serious candidate to be cut this offseason too. I’m sure a lot of Bills fans have been following McGahee’s situation in Baltimore where he seems likely to be cut as well. He is only scheduled to make 650K in addition to a 1.5 mil roster bonus, so he might actually stick around, but that could be another 2 mil that the Ravens have available to spend elsewhere during the offseason too.
All that said, Baltimore does have Ray Lewis, Jason Brown, Bart Scott, Dwan Edwards, Jim Leonhard, Corey Ivy, Lorenzo Neal and Daniel Wilcox all without contracts after the playoffs. Suggs has a chance to hit the market, but I think the odds of him leaving are pretty small.
I am convinced that he will hit the market
He is entitled to test it so why wouldn’t he? I don’t know who his agent is but for sure he is going to test the market and I seriously doubt that Baltimore would give him as much as other teams would. The only way that he doesn’t hit the market is if they re-sign Lewis without having to tag him and then tag Suggs for a second year in a row, which is highly unlikely. I am certain that he will hit the market.
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
What we should do
I think the Bills will chuck Royal out the door on his keister. At that point we have Schou and Fine on the roster, and the past 5 games this year anyhow Fine was the first TE on the field, he was an upgrade over Royal in blocking, so no loss and only net gain there.
As much as I would like an impact Rd. 1 TE, it won’t happen. We need to look at guys from smaller D-1A and D-1AA schools who are the focal points of their passing attacks, and there are quite a few of them out there. We should nab one of them in the 3-4th rounds, because I have a feeling that we may in fact fall back from the #11 pick due to the demand for DEs and other positions by other teams.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
On the defensive end situation
I think Aaron schobel is a decent player, even a good player. However he’s not the guy. If we go get a guy like Julius Peppers, then Schobel/Williams/Stroud/Peppers is a really good defensive line, I think. It goes from a weakness to a strength
To me, Aaron Schobel is a Phil Hansen. He’s was a good player, but he was successful when he had Bruce Smith on the other side. Schobel can’t be Bruce, he’s got to be Phil. We need to go get a Bruce.
We’ll get to defensive ends, don’t worry… :)
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 31, 2008 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Coffman or Purvis could be late picks
Let’s face it, the top tight ends in the draft, Pettigrew and others will be gone. A few late round picks that could be their in 4-5 rounds are Coffman from Missouri and Ryan Purvis fom Boston College. Coffman can really get down the field and stretch it.
Jared Bronson, Central Washington 6-4/255)
He’s supposed to be an intriguing size/speed prospect who has the explosion to get downfield and threaten the seam at the next level. Not much of a blocker I’ve heard, but he has the athleticism to be flexed out in the slot and create mismatches in the passing game.
He was just named AP Little All-America First Team. Which so people understand is setup to to honor players from NCAA Division II, Division III, and NAIA institutions.
According to the CWU athletics site he did pretty well this past year.
He had a standout senior campaign for the Wildcats despite missing nearly five full games due to injury, ranking second on the team in receiving yards (502) and receiving touchdowns (6), and fourth in pass receptions (28).
With 502 yards on 28 receptions, he was averaging more than 17 yards a catch. He is big, needs to become a better blocker, but we got Fine for that, and he will be around in the 4-7th rounds. I think he along with Coffman or Purvis should really be on the teams radar come draft time.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
Fine looked good in limited playing time
And I think needs a good offseason, and a chance to start, unless OBD think sotherwise.
Cut royal, or only a backup, and then like smeone else said, draft the most athletic TE with no blocking ability in RD 4
The Bills CAN win every game
Message vs. Ability
Keeping Royal is the worst possible message the Bills can give to its fans. As much as I agree with Brian’s analysis of keeping Royal as a 3rd string TE from a talent point of view, his inability to do the fundamentals correctly is inexcusable. Management should kick him off the curb to send the rest of the team a message that this is not acceptable in Bills uniform.
We are not even talking about our 1st or 2nd string TE. A 3rd stringer is not going to make or break a season for you. For the insurance we are keeping Royal for, it is much more important to sack him for the sake of adjusting the right attitude inside the locker room.
Bills fan half way around the world
What Do YOU Want...
from the TE position is what you have to ask yourself. There are so many ways to address the situation and all the permutations depend on how you want to utilize the TE. So far, Buffalo’s coaches have shown that they don’t emphasize the position either personnel-wise or schematically. You can all bet your bollocks to a barn dance that it will be de-emphasized again, this offseason. So expect a veteran free agent or a 4th-7th round draft pick.
Who does that leave us with? Well, if you’re satisfied with the blocking of Fine and Royal (I believe Schouman is the odd man out here), then that leaves Buffalo with little dynamo at the position. A draft pick that could fix that is a guy like Cornelius Ingram who will be a mid-round draft pick because he blew out his knee last spring and is undersized as a TE. Ingram is a physical freak but needs to work on his hands. Or a guy like Travis Beckum, who is really just a huge WR… he may cost a late 2nd or 3rd round pick, however. Beckum catches everything you throw at him and no one could match up with him at the collegiate level. If they go free agent, we could be looking at a guy like LJ Smith who could fix the position for us entirely as he’s a pretty well-rounded player. Free agent options are pretty limited and dissatisfying, unless we get lucky and there are some interesting cuts made.
Robert Royal would be a great part of this team if he was our 2nd TE… a primary blocking role and less balls thrown at him. Can Derek Fine start for us? Why not? He showed a pretty good feel for the game as a rookie and was better than expected as a blocker. Why not give him the chance to improve? Either way, someone would have to hold down the position until a rookie could fully take over… so we are likely to see it anyways.
PREDICTION:
The Bills will draft a player in the 4-5th round they feel would play hard and be able to do the things they ask their TEs to do… not much. Robert Royal and Derek Fine will battle in camp for the starting role and it will be given to Royal because Fine doesn’t have the skills right now to separate himself from a vet like Royal. The rookie will be buried until Fine or Royal inevitably gets hurt and we might get a chance to see what he can do.
WHAT I WANT:
Travis Beckum. He could do for a team what Antonio Gates does for the Chargers because he is serious match-up problem. He runs excellent routes, can stretch the field, and catches everything you throw at him. He won’t have a ridiculous work out so he may last until the 3rd, in which case Buffalo should do what’s necessary to get him. Beckum was a factor every time I watched the Badgers play. He would also be huge in the red zone.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
I like Beckum also. The only concern I have for him is his weight. last I checked he was in the 225-230 range. That isn’t much bigger then an average NFL safety. If his weight can get up to about 245 I would love him. (again he may have added more weight since last I checked)
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
Good post FA!
I agree I like Beckum in the 3rd round, I think he will slip and he’d be a great pickup.
I do think that keeping Royal as a blocking TE is better than Schouman and I think Fine will surprise quite a few and win out the starting role next spring.
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13

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