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Gamesmenship vs. Cheating, what counts as what?

Ross Tucker, one time Bill, Patriot and I forget how many other teams, put out an article today for SI.com about the cheating he saw and participated in while playing Pro ball. You can find the article here: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/ross_tucker/05/15/rules/index.html

Among the gems is this one: "One season when I was with the Bills, the offensive line coach for the team we were were about to face was fired days before the game. He subsequently called our offensive line coach, Jim McNally, and let him know some of the unique defensive formations we could expect to see that week. Needless to say, the defenders were very surprised how well prepared we were."

Now, I don't figure Jim was going to look a gift horse in the mouth, but there we go, we also did it when we hired Lawyer Milloy right after he was cut by the Patriots and hey, we won that first game from them, and we sure seemed to know what was coming at us that game too. Hmmmmmmm....

As Ross relates ALL teams either cheat outright, or bend the rules to the breaking point to be successful. Why? Because the NFL and its fans are such a big group of "What have you done for me lately" types, that coaches and the front offices of the franchises have no choice but to grab every advantage they can when they get it.

Do I condone or excuse this behavior? Hard to say for me. I've spent enough time in the world of college sports to know that my team did its best to know the other teams signals and formations, we always had a coach at our next opponents game taping and looking for things we could use. Did I personally sometimes apply stickum to my hands in HS when I still played TE in order to make sure I caught those outlet passes when my QB was in trouble, damn right I did, even though stickum wasn't allowed by Section III in NY State. Its all a very very slippery slope, and in the end, I think it all depends on where we as fans, and they as coaches and FO people decide it should stop.

 

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Also of note, Steve Young was on Dan Patrick's radio show earlier today and there was an interesting discussion that took place there. Basically it became a discussion of what constitues "Cheating" and what constitutes "Gamesmenship" and I personally found it very fascinating hearing Steve Young discuss some of the things he saw in games. You can listen to it here: http://http-trd-l3.cdn.turner.com/si/danpatrick/audio/2008/05/16/DP-Steve_Young%20-5-16_Interview.mp3?eref=fromSI

Steve's arguement is that if it is systematic (like the Pats) its cheating. If its a situation where the field is quiet enough, and someone on the other side of the ball overhears the play being called by the other team, and they make an adjustment, then thats gamesmenship, and I gotta agree with that take on the situation.

This FanPost was written by a registered user of Buffalo Rumblings. Its views do not necessarily reflect the views of Rumblings' editorial staff, but are just as valued as our own.

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This is, for the most part, the game

Stickum, hand signals, holding under the shoulder pads, hard counts, reaching the ball past the first down marker no matter what…
It’s all “cheating” to some degree, but in a world of high end competition, you do what you have to to win, and sometimes you get caught and then you get penalized.
The videotaping the hand signals, so to study them, adds another element, but now it makes it so the competition committee has to think of new ways to get the plays to the defense, like a speaker in the helmet, which they did. Also, it makes things on the D side of the ball a bit pedestrian when you are using the same signals all the time for every team.
I don’t think it is that big of a deal, and now the competition is better. That was a smart thing to do, especially if no one else was doing it, which may not be the case.
We’ll see what happens now, and after, and as you can see, the PAtriots still won all of their regular season games after the scandal broke and it proves nothing except they were an exceptional team.
Now we can move on…

The Bills can win every game

by killascript on May 16, 2008 5:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Milloy

I wonder if he told the coaching staff to change their defensive signals at halftime because they were being videotaped?

by the Skycap on May 16, 2008 7:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Talking to released players

To me that isn’t cheating. I know the Pats did that with Freddie Smith a few years ago, and to tell you the truth I didn’t have a huge problem with it then. If a team wants to talk to a cut player or fired coach, so be it. Maybe teams should pay players and coaches to insure they won’t talk to other teams.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on May 16, 2008 10:16 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

It wasn’t cheating for Buffalo to pick Milloy’s brain to prepare for that Pats game. Now I would be curious to know whether he passed along any info about the videotaping. He might have kept that to himself as he was good friends with Brady…

by Ron From NM on May 16, 2008 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am with you guys

That is not cheating.

by Joe P. on May 17, 2008 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

huh?

There isn’t a single thing in that article that proves, or even leads me to believe that the Bills have ever cheated.

So what, some OL coach called Jim McNally and gave him a heads up about some defensive formations. That isn’t cheating.

Asking a recently signed FA how to gameplan against his last team isn’t cheating.

This spygate thing is out of control. The Pats wouldn’t have had time to learn a team’s signals mid-game and use them in the second half. Walsh even said that he didn’t give the tapes to Belichick and the coaching staff until after the game.

EVERY team in the league steals package signals. Nobody cares that the opposing team knows 5 seconds earlier than they would otherwise that an offense is going with 4 WRs or 2 TEs or that a defense is using a dime or nickel package.

Stealing signals in an attempt to decode them and learn what plays the opposing team is running would be absurdly complex. I don’t know how much of an advantage the Pats got by trying to do so, but I feel confident assuming that they didn’t know anything about what play the opposing team was going to run over 90% of the time. They maybe knew the Offense was going to throw or run a few times a game and they probably knew if a certain position (C, S, WLB, SLB) was going to blitz a couple times a game. Its not like they had some secret sheet of paper telling them what every play was going to be.

The reason it was a big deal is because it was specifically against the rules. There isn’t a rule saying that you can’t look over at the other side of the field and watch the coaches signal to their players. There is a rule saying that you can’t videotape the opponents signals. It is that simple. I’ve been trying to avoid a spygate discussion here, but I just had to say all that. Spygate is over and done with in my mind and I hope to never talk about it again.

by kaisertown on May 17, 2008 12:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

First of all, Im not sure where anyone cheated in your post.

There is no rule in the NFL about a fired employee spilling his guts, or a released player doing the same.

There is a rule about taping from the sideline.

The Patriots cheated. Buffalo didnt. Thats according to NFL rules.

The subtext of all this is of course, well we got the same advantage.

Sure that might be true. But seriously, how often is a coach fired? How often is a a defensive captain released?

The Patriots cheated in every game, for 8 years.

Every game.

8 Years.

by Thronsen on May 17, 2008 2:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm, maybe your right

I have changed the article title to the more informative, and more accurate: “Gamesmenship vs. Cheating”

Thank you all for your thoughts on this, this is how we ALL as Bills fans grow in our understanding and knowledge of the game. I may know formations and how to play it, but it doesn’t mean I know a whole lot about the others aspects at times.

Fear the mighty helmet wearing gopher, he is coming for your soul....

by WABillsfan on May 17, 2008 6:06 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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