State of the Roster II: Bills Cornerbacks
Prior to the 2008 NFL Draft - in fact, prior to the free agent signing period of this past March - we took a look at the Buffalo Bills' roster position by position, breaking down then-current personnel, finding holes, and building our community needs list.
Now that free agency and the Draft have been completed, and the Bills have infused their roster with new talent, it's time to repeat our process. Where has Buffalo gotten better? Where have they gotten worse? How will additions impact which Bills veterans remain on the roster? These are questions that we've been attempting to answer for the past week or so, and will continue to do so.
We continue those discussions today with an examination of Buffalo's cornerbacks. To view our previous discussions on Buffalo's CB situation (pre-off-season), bang it here.
Terrence McGee: My opinion of McGee has been, and remains, a high one. McGee is one of the more underrated corners in the league, in my opinion - he registered 78 tackles and four interceptions last season, and is a threat to score any time he gets his hands on the ball. No, he's not a "shut down" corner, and he'll always give up some plays due to his lack of size and Perry Fewell's preferred style of defense, but McGee is a very, very solid football player. It's hard to go wrong when one of your starting corners is a sure tackler, a bit of a playmaker, and a touchdown threat.
Jabari Greer: We're all quite aware that Greer was a pleasant surprise in 2007. He stepped into the starting lineup after injuries to both Jason Webster and Ashton Youboty, and didn't relinquish his new job from that point forward. Greer is an aggressive corner with excellent speed and an ability to make a few plays, but he also leaves a lot to be desired - he's quite small, a below-average tackler, and his upside is pretty limited. Greer is a guy that any team would love to have on their roster - he's a gamer, a solid athlete and a guy you can depend on when he's in the lineup. But if he's starting at the outset of the '08 season, it will merely be in a seat-warming capacity. His ideal role is as a nickel/dime back and special teams ace.
Ashton Youboty: Once heralded as the future replacement to the now-departed Nate Clements, Youboty will have trouble earning playing time in 2008 as it appears at the moment. In the very limited amount of time Youboty has seen playing time, he's showed solid tackling ability, excellent athleticism, and some ball skills. His big problem right now is that he's so raw - in an effort to mask errors in his game, he's extremely tentative in coverage and in run support. The kid's definitely got the tools. Whether or not he gets the playing time to maximize on his potential remains to be seen.
Dustin Fox: With three years under his belt, Fox has failed to live up to his pedigree of being a third-round pick of Minnesota in '05. He was a solid special teams performer at season's end for the Bills, but with the influx of talent on the roster, he's an ultra-longshot to make the final 53.
The Additions: Will James, Leodis McKelvin, Reggie Corner, Kennard Cox
Dick Jauron mentioned in a post-draft interview that the team's goal throughout the off-season was to add at least one cornerback in free agency and at least two - but ideally three - more corners in the draft. Mission accomplished. James provides immediate competition to Greer in any capacity (starting or sub-package) and gives the unit some much-needed size. Corner is a smart, tough player that will need some coaching but has "future nickel back" written all over him. Even Cox is an intriguing prospect, as he has the talent to switch between corner and safety at will.
The real wild card of the entire CB group is McKelvin. Clearly, as the eleventh overall pick, McKelvin is going to be a starter in Buffalo sooner rather than later. All eyes will be on him during training camp - if he holds his own and makes a play or two, he should be starting, relegating Greer, James and Youboty to sub-package guys.
The Subtractions: Jason Webster, Kiwaukee Thomas, Jerametrius Butler
Let's be honest here - the Bills lost three OK cornerbacks this off-season, but the four guys brought in are far more talented than the three lost. Thomas is the biggest loss, as he spent two solid seasons as the team's nickel back. The team was rumored to be interested in re-signing Webster; when he signed with the Pats, the Bills likely turned their attention to James. This trio was highly injury-prone, so it's not likely the Bills will miss any of them heading into 2008.
Pre-Season Outlook: This position was destroyed by injury in 2007, but it wasn't necessarily a bad thing going forward. Webster and Thomas both landed on IR and Youboty struggled with injury, but with those injuries came the emergence of Greer as a viable option. Now, after an active off-season, the Bills have excellent depth at the position - there are legitimately five players (McGee, McKelvin, Greer, James, Youboty) who will fight for prominent playing time, and Corner seems like a virtual lock to make the roster as well. This is another green position for the Bills, but there's excellent depth and tons of talent. This was a job well done by Buffalo in re-building the corner position this off-season.
Change: Youth and far, far more talent.
As always, your thoughts and opinions are welcome and encouraged in the comments section.
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some thoughts
McGee and McKelvin will be the starters week 1. I think the only way McKelvin isn’t starting right away is if he plays his way OUT of a starting role during the preseason.
I don’t think Jabari Greer is at all suited to be a special teams ace. In fact, I don’t think he should have a role on special teams at all. He is too small to be a punt gunner or to be a part of KR coverage. At 180 pounds, Greer weighs more than only 3 Bills players (Parrish, Corner and Moorman).
I still think Reggie Corner was the most confusing pick the Bills have made in some time. He is too small to contribute on special teams or ever develop into a starter. So your drafting a player in the 4th round in hopes that he one day develops into a role player who’s only value to the team is in nickel and dime packages? Corner should make this team, but I won’t be at all surprised if he doesn’t. Since Corner doesn’t have special teams value he will have to win a job as a top 4 CB to be active for a game.
After doing my ST teams thing, I think Will James is a near lock to make the team. At 200 pounds he is the only CB the Bills might keep that has the size to be a part of the kick coverage unit. That coupled with mediocre CB play is all you really need in a 5th CB. If James is good enough to win playing time as the 3rd or 4th CB, then that is just a bonus.
Youboty is too much of a question mark for me to really say anything about. I think it is way too early to give up on him. I hope he makes the team.
Here are the roles I predict for the Bills CBs this season.
McGee – starter and primary KR.
McKelvin – starter and occasional KR and PR
Greer – nickel in obvious pass downs
James – nickel in possible run downs, dime back in obvious pass downs, kick coverage unit
Youboty – dime in possible run downs, occasional role in kick coverage
Corner – inactive barring injury
I realize that most nickel coverage units will be passing downs. I would say that when the Bills have 3 CBs on the field, Greer will be the nickel guy 80% of the time. Potential run downs would be on 2nd or 3rd down with 1-3 yards to go. I would prefer have James in there if the opposition floods the field with 3 or 4 wide, but still has a 40% chance of calling a run play.
I think If Will James were to get hurt during camp or the preseason the Bills have a few options. The most obvious option is to keep 5 CBs and throw Youboty on kick coverage and hope he can hold his own. The Bills could also keep the same 5 CBs, but leave Corner or Youboty inactive and use Wilson, Scott or Wendling as a dime back if one of the corners were to get hurt. This frees up an active spot for a LB or other ST guy. The other option would be to keep 6 CBs. This would iclude the better special teams performer between Fox and Cox, and Corner or Youboty would be inactive every week.
by kaisertown on May 28, 2008 3:32 PM EDT 0 recs
I’m usually on board with all of what you say, kaisertown, but with no disrespect meant, I think you’re WAY misguided on your thoughts about Greer and Corner on special teams. Sure, they’re small guys (Greer – 5’10”, 180; Corner – 5’9”, 175), but try telling any Bills fan that the 5’9”, 185-pound Steve Tasker was too small to play special teams.
Corner is absolutely tough enough to play coverage roles on kick returns (though I can’t say the same for Greer), and I think you’ll see him in exactly that role, though possibly not immediately. I think you’re right that he won’t see a lot of playing time, but this guy has a future as the team’s nickel cornerback, and possibly as a starter. Don’t make the mistake of claiming that a nickel corner is a “role player”, either – NFL offenses use so many multi-WR formations that you have to have 4-5 high quality corners. Corner is a part of that, and while he won’t play much as a rookie, he’s got a future.
Greer is the IDEAL punt gunner because he’s quick (therefore tough to jam on punt coverage) and can make tackles low. He’s stayed on Buffalo’s roster so long (going on five years) BECAUSE he’s so good at punt coverage, and is part of the reason the Bills had #1-rated punt coverage units a few seasons back. I don’t understand where you get he’s a poor punt gunner at all.
I think you nailed their roles, though, with the addition that if Greer isn’t starting, he’ll most certainly be gunning punts.
by Brian Galliford on
May 28, 2008 4:08 PM EDT
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role players
If a nickel corner isn’t a role player than what is it? What percentage of defensive plays do team’s really use 3 CBs? If an offensive or defensive player is only going to be on the field for 20-35% of his units plays, they are a role player. I do realize that a good nickel corner is an asset and wasn’t trying to knock the position, but when you draft a guy who’s only way of contributing will be limited to nickel cornerback, it confuses me.
Teams rarely use players who weigh less than 187-189 pounds on kick coverage. Think about covering a kick for a second. The players sprint at full speed for about 50 yards and then slam into offensive lineman, tight ends, fullbacks, defensive lineman and linebackers who have been running full speed themselves. Now that is definately an oversimplification, but how often do 180 pound players record tackles on kick coverage. Jim Leonahard (185) had 3 ST tackles, Ashton Youboty (188) had 2 tackles and Jerametrius Butler (185) added 2 more. It’s no coincidence that the team’s (and the league’s in general) best special teams players always weigh over 200 pounds.
According to his bio, Greer did record 11 solo ST tackles in 2006. He was also a fulltime gunner in 2005 where he recorded 5 solo tackles. I don’t put much stock into those bios though. Greer’s says he had 20 ST tackles in 2005, but then you read a little further down and it says 5 of them were solo tackles. I was never impressed with Greer as a gunner. I thought Aiken was better getting off the ball and much better at taking down the returner. I doubt Greer is as good as Jenkins (207) or Wendling (222) as a gunner and the biggest difference is size.
I love the idea of specialized packages for the defense this season. Greer on 3rd and 4+ yards and James on 2nd or 3rd and 4 or less yards. That combo should be much better than Thomas, Butler and Youboty were last season.
by kaisertown on
May 30, 2008 1:11 AM EDT
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Uhh
It’s kind of narrow minded to say that Corner is too small to be a starter or a special teams player (the same applies to Greer). Asante Samuel is only 185 lbs and we’ve all seen that he’s a pretty good starter in this league. And since when did it become a rule that if you draft a guy in the 4th round that he should be a starter some day? If you get a starter in the 4th round consider yourself fortunate. The 4th round on teams usually target depth. You don’t need exceptional size to be a punt gunner, anyways. You need to move like grease lightning to contain the returner (kickoffs are another story).
I was surprised by the Corner pick, too. But to pigeon-hole him as a guy who can and can’t do this or can’t do that is ignorant because nobody has seen him play a down. Leodis McKelvin has bad ball skills therefore he can’t start in this league. James Hardy is too slow to be a legitimate receiving option (end sarcasm).
Maybe we’re all getting spoiled with the Bills finding quality players in later rounds (Kyle Williams, Brad Butler, Ko Simpson, Jabari Greer, Terrence McGee, Jason Peters, Fred Jackson, etc.).
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
by ForeignArrow on
May 28, 2008 9:47 PM EDT
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well
Sure Asante Samuel has developed into one of the league’s better cornerbacks despite being one of the smallest starters at his position in the league. But then go ahead and realize that he is an inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than Reggie Corner. One of the leagues smallest starters is considerably bigger than Corner is.
Larry Tripplett and Jason Jefferson weigh 10 pounds less than John McCargo and Kyle Williams. John Digiorgio is undersized at 229 pounds, but nobody would say that if he weighed 240 pounds. The weight difference between James Hardy and Lee Evans is 15 pounds. Running backs are defined by their combination of size and speed. 200-210 pound backs are change of pace guys. 210-225 pound backs are feature guys and 225+ guys are between the tackles runners and there are few exceptions. You can’t overlook what those 10 pounds mean.
Most teams that use an undersized corner also have to compensate by playing an above average sized player at the other CB spot. The Bears pair Vasher with 6’1, 196 pound Charles Tilman. Ronde Barber will be playing across from 6’1, 206 pound Aqib Talib. Winfield has 6’0, 203 pound Cedric Griffin and 6’1, 203 pound Marcus McCauley competing for time across from him.
I don’t expect fourth round players to ever develop into starters. That wasn’t my point. I actually often laugh at my screen when people around here start talking about Steve Johnson taking over for Josh Reed in 2009. John Wendling won’t contirbute at safety unless injuries force him into a job. Even the guys you mention don’t lead me to believe that the Bills are especially good at finding players in the later rounds. Jason Peters is an excpetional story, but the Bills brought him in as a TE and it took them a few years before they even realized what they had. Kyle Williams is the 4th DT in the rotation this year. Guards are typically found later in the draft. Greer is a nickel corner who went undrafted. Ko Simpson wasn’t really a late pick considering he was taken 105th overall and he will be “competing” for a starting role this year. Fred Jackson was an NFL Europe guy who is already 27 years old. That only leaves Terrence McGee who was an exceptional pick.
My whole problem with Corner is that he lacks the upside to warrant a 4th round selection. I didn’t think he was a bad pick because Mel Kiper didn’t like it. I don’t care that he went to Akron and I didn’t watch him play every week. The simple truth is that he runs a 4.5-4.55 forty yard dash and is literally the smallest CB in the entire league. That is a total lack of potential and he was a bad pick. Even if he develops into a solid nickel back, I will still think it was a bad pick.
by kaisertown on
May 30, 2008 1:51 AM EDT
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long live McCoverage.....
i root for teams that lack offense! go halos and bills!
by norcaliangelsfan on May 28, 2008 3:52 PM EDT 0 recs
Greer
I actually agree with kaisertown that it doesn’t make sense drafting Corner in the 4th round with the hope that he will one day turn into a nickle back. Mostly because Jabari Greer still has so many years left. In my opinion, if McKelvin develops right we have our top 3 corners set for a number of years. Greer is great guy to have at the nickle. Will James is solid and we’re apparently still holding our breaths on Youboty. I just don’t see where Corner fits in, even in the future, at anything other than a dime back…maybe that. Don’t get me wrong I think he has potential but its just confusing.
McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year
by poz on May 28, 2008 4:52 PM EDT 0 recs
I actually agree with kaisertown that it doesn’t make sense drafting Corner in the 4th round with the hope that he will one day turn into a nickle back. Mostly because Jabari Greer still has so many years left.
Actually, he only has ONE year left – on his current contract, that is. Greer is scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent next off-season, and if he has another good year, there’s a good chance somebody takes a gamble on him and pays him like a starting CB (he’s scheduled to make only $700K in ‘08). Corner is excellent insurance.
For that matter, three more corners – McGee, James and Youboty – are free agents after the ‘09 season (two more years as Bills). So there’s a very good chance that the team’s top four cornerbacks entering the draft (McGee, Greer, James, Youboty) will be two or less over the next two years. So drafting Corner actually makes a lot of sense.
by Brian Galliford on
May 28, 2008 5:08 PM EDT
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I thought it was clear
I should have been more clear in my language. I meant still having many years left in terms of age. I do not foresee us letting McGee go, so I’d take that off the table. Why would Greer want to go somewhere else? I really can’t think of many teams that would need Greer because frankly, he’s not a starting caliber CB. I can think of a few teams who might, maybe, take a chance on him like the Browns or the Texans but I don’t even think he’s an upgrade over guys like Dunta Robinson or maybe even Jacques Reeves (well make Jacques a little). Also, Greer has a pretty good deal here. He’s gained the respect of his coaches and the love of the fans because of his admirable play last year and I would say he should have a lock on at least the nickle spot. The Bills will probably give him fair money and I don’t think he’ll get a lot of attention in free agency because I think he’ll lose his spot to McKelvin, giving him less stage space to showcase his skills. Finally, you say drafting Corner makes sense, but I would say drafting A corner makes sense. Like I said, our guys have a lot of years left, age-wise, and I just was surprised to see us take a corner in the 4th round. Of course it makes sense to get another CB but 4th round was a bit confusing. I also don’t see the concerns with James and Youboty. Youboty will not command dollars from anyone, so we have the option of resigning him cheap and I think its good James only has a year left. He hasn’t done anything yet. So I still think Corner did not actually make a lot of sense in the 4th.
McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year
by poz on
May 28, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
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I should have been more clear in my language. I meant still having many years left in terms of age.
No need – it was quite clear. I was just trying to be clever when discussing his contract. :)
I can think of a few teams who might, maybe, take a chance on him like the Browns or the Texans but I don’t even think he’s an upgrade over guys like Dunta Robinson or maybe even Jacques Reeves (well make Jacques a little).
I like the fact that you bring up Reeves – that guy got TORCHED for two seasons in Dallas (they gladly let him leave as a UFA), and he still got starter’s money from Houston. Trust me – there will be a team that overpays for a guy like Greer as a starter, just like the Texans did for Reeves. You see it happen all the time. And even if it doesn’t in Greer’s case, it’s still not 100% that he’d be back in Buffalo.
Like I said, our guys have a lot of years left, age-wise, and I just was surprised to see us take a corner in the 4th round.
Ha, don’t get me wrong – I scratched my head when they called Corner’s name at that point, too. But there’s logic in it – he was the best player on their board at a position that needed depth.
Youboty will not command dollars from anyone, so we have the option of resigning him cheap
Unless Youboty thinks he can finally get some good playing time elsewhere – and there’s a good shot he would. I think he’s by far the most likely CB to be gone after his contract expires – he has no reason to re-sign here, like you say Greer does (which I agree with to an extent).
Basically, it’s not a lock that we’ll retain half of the four guys whose contracts expire over the next two years – or that McGee is one of the guys we re-sign (though I certainly hope he is). You can’t pass up the top guy on your board because he’s the #6 guy at a position that MIGHT have good depth over the next three years. I think the fact that he was the top guy on their board had more to do with his being selected in the fourth round than anything – that’s how they’ve done things for three years now – but there IS logic to it.
by Brian Galliford on
May 28, 2008 6:20 PM EDT
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Free Agent corners
You do make a good point about how often teams overpay for corners as your Jacques Reeves example demonstrates. I must say Brian you got me a little worried now. I was really excited about looking forward to many season of having one of the best, if not the best nickel package corners in the league. McKelvin, McGee, and Greer. Those three names together just gets me pumped, especially in a division with Moss, Welker, Coles, and Cotchery lining up on the other side. I would be absolutely devastated if Greer left next year, I really think he could make a legacy for himself as a Buffalo great at the nickel position and a fan favorite, whereas if he were to go somewhere else he’d be an above average starter, maybe turning into a journeyman. Keeping quality guys like Greer around to play at the nickel makes teams great, I love his on the field attitude, and the last thing I’d want to see is the Browns take him away from us just as a rivalry may be brewing. I’ll take Greer over Youboty and James next season any day.
McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year
by poz on
May 28, 2008 10:46 PM EDT
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Greer doesn't get the love
I thought Greer did exceptionally well last year. And even before last year. he has always looked good in practice, in pre-season and in the few games he played (i.e., everytime he gets to show his talent). As small as he is, he seems to do surprisingly well compared to other corners on big WRs because he is aggressive, and he seems to go for the INT a lot. I love this guy who was undrafted because of his size but made it from the beginning with the Bills. If you look at his production and not his size, he’s a starting CB. It seems like the Bills constantly signs him to a short term contract and he always proves that we should bring him back.
by labill on May 28, 2008 6:50 PM EDT 0 recs
Why I dont know what I think of Greer
Since the convo has turned toward Greer, I really dont know what to think of him. Is he a #2 starter or a #5 bench guy who provides depth? I saw numerous times greer looked great, dallas game, miami. At the same time I also watched the Bills Pats game where Moss looked like he was being covered by a JV high school player. If our run D was solid last year I would say Greer is a dime player great to cover slot WR’s. However, Greer got little help b/c our run D was atrocious leaving him on an insland and therefore I feel due to theglimpses he showed he should be given the benefit of the doubt that he is capable to be the Bills #2 CB. However, I will not say anyone on the Bills D last year was great or exceptional. I mean we were ranked what….29th; 27th? Whitner was good, McGee was good, Crowell was good, the rest were avg to bad or merely showed glimpses. I say make it an open competition in camp between Greer and McKelvin. With McKelvin living w. Whitner expect that competition to be as one-sided as the Poz/DiG comp from last year. (Lets hope McKelvin doesn’t suffer the same injury fate though).
We should have 5 new or relatively new defensive starters. Ko, Poz, Mitchell, McKelvin, Stroud to go with 4 other above avg defensive players in Whitner, Schrobel, McGee, Crowell. This is what is making most of us excited.
Oh, another thought that has crossed my mind is that Will James wins the #2 CB spot, McKelvin plays nickle and Greer dime. James certainly would be the best in run support.
by Berg79 on May 29, 2008 9:47 AM EDT 0 recs
James
I too was thinking about James’ shot at getting the #2 or beating Greer on the depth chart. I think corner is going to be the best thing to watch in camp this year.
McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year
by poz on
May 29, 2008 10:44 AM EDT
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