Some informed observations from Rookie Camp

by Geronimo on May 8, 2008 6:20 PM EDT

I thought I'd take the opportunity to share some feedback on Rookie Camp from those in a better position to observe than I. As always, consider this informed opinion, so take it for what it is worth--I was certainly not there. Also, please remember that the rookies were in shorts and tees, not exactly how they're going to line-up against Seattle in September.

I think there is a tendency among very close observers of the game to be disappointed when they first see the rookies up close. They have scouted them ad nauseum, been enthusiastic about drafting them and see a lot of potential. Then, as people with decades in the NFL, they see chinks and problems under close-up first-hand scrutiny. Last year I recall that when the staff first saw Marshawn Lynch and Paul Posluszny, they were struck by how much better they actually were than on tape. They are equally enthusiastic about this year's class--although sadly my report will only deal with a few of them.

Leodis McKelvin definitely impressed with his natural athletic ability, ball instincts and sheer explosiveness. OBD believes that he just loves playing football, a theme that ran throughout all of the draftees. Knowing their draft philosophy, this came as no surprise. James Hardy made an equally big impression with his hands, size and route-running. I heard comments that lead me to believe that he can step right in and contribute beyond what the experts believe is "normal" for a first-year wideout. I also heard comments that indicate that it depends on how they use him in the offense. I am very curious about this, but for the time being, it will have to remain a curiosity. Chris Ellis apparently exhibited the very quick first step we have all read about, and while they consider him raw in the technique sense, they were excited about the possibilities of him playing in the DE rotation, but likely only as a situational pass rusher initially. He will get a lot of teaching attention in camp. They are high on both Reggie Corner and Derek Fine. Corner apparently is just a natural ballhawk, is smart, uses his instincts well, and although he is clearly small, he's a natural nickel back. Fine they like a lot. No one single thing he does jumps out at you, but it's more the collective package. Very smart, very tough, can catch it, and loves to block. Just a "football player" is the report.

I can say that the optimism at OBD is very high. As high as I have ever heard it. They truly feel that with what they did in free agency, all the injured guys coming back healthy, the addition of this rookie class and some key changes on the coaching staff, they can line up and play with anybody. Much will depend on good health and Trent Edwards to be sure--but they are very excited.

I do hope to have a report following the first full-team workouts scheduled for the 16th-18th.

This FanPost created by a registered user of Buffalo Rumblings.

2 recs | Comment 43 comments | Add your comment

Read Related

Story-email Email | Print |

Comments

THANKS

FOR THE REPORTalways very interesting reading, I have the same feeling about hardy this team is so starved for a big wide out that if he can produce they’ll go to him until someone stops him would love to see him get 1 td a game, he;s more than able to do has the skills IMO

Bills Fan in PA

by BILLS on May 8, 2008 6:35 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Thanks for the heads up as always Geronimo

Glad to hear they like the looks of Hardy and that they are trying to find ways to get him a lot of touches. I am a bit surprised about what you had to report what they had to say about Fine, I was worried we got Robert Royal Jr. in the draft there. Keep up the good work.

Fear the mighty helmet wearing gopher, he is coming for your soul....

by WABillsfan on May 8, 2008 6:35 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Thanks

I hope their optimism turns into production and in turn, WINS, this season. We definitely need it as fans.

I really expect Hardy to be able to step in there right away. Whether he produces a whole lot is debatable, but he will have some impact in September, I can bet on that.

I really hope McKelvin turns into the explosive CB that we drafted him to be. I hope his ball skills can be improved and he becomes a very good tackler. And I can’t wait to see him with the ball in his hands on ST, assuming he gets a role there.

I think Ellis can have an immediate impact for us. He’s going to be a better pass rush threat almost right away than either Kelsay or Denney is. I hope he can improve his technique over the summer and be a 5-7 sack guy this year.

I still find Fine questionable. He’s never going to be a major threat at TE due to his physical limitations, but if he can become, simply put, a solid all-around TE, I will be happy. I just hope his blocking skills are enough to get him on the field right away and his receiving skills allow him to at least be a good option for Trent.

Corner sounds like a gem already and we haven’t seen him in pads yet. If he becomes a stud nickel back, I think we will all be happy. I love having ball hawks in the secondary and this guy should be one of the few we actually do have. I hope he capitalizes on that this year…

G, Any idea how some of the undrafted rookies were evaluated after the camp??

by Kurupt on May 8, 2008 6:59 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Same song every year

And with every team, no less. When’s the last time you heard any coach or front office say of a draft pick: “Man, he sucks. What were we smoking?” (I’d actually kind of like to hear that just once…) It’s great to be optimistic about players (generally, not just Buffalo’s) at this point and hopefully everyone feels the same way come the start of the season.

by Ron From NM on May 8, 2008 7:23 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Agree

This early after the draft what team is going to say, “man we really muffed this draft up”?

I’m glad to hear that they like the guys they took but I would be much more surprised if they said the opposite.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on May 9, 2008 6:58 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Actually,

I am hoping to feel that way at the end of the season too. By the way, Doomed asked me to send his regards.

by Joe P. on May 9, 2008 10:17 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Outlook

If the Bills avoid injuries and they get good production from the quarterback position, I think they are legitimate 9-7 material. Not necessarily 9-7 by record, but 9-7 by playing performance. I think the Bills played worse than 7-9 last season. If they get great production at quarterback, then they will be that much better.

by Fort Worth on May 8, 2008 7:33 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

but

The difference I think with this Bill organization is the consistency aspect. This draft class is tailor made to produce in the current system. Before, in the Donahoe era, players drafted never really fit the team well. He just kind of snatched players randomly. Here, I see a reasoning behind every selection and most times it is to fill a need to improve our squad.
2006 – S, DT
2007 – RB, MLB, QB
2008 – CB, WR

I am happy wit it. I don’t expect much from Fine. I don’t see how he would be much of an upgrade over Schouman. I secretly hope, that Hardy’s size and athleticism will lead to huge numbers, but I just have serious doubts aobut a rookie WR doing much.
I hope MCkelvin & Corner can help shore up that secondary. That secondary should get tested more with our improved front 7 against the run.

MARVelous

by MARVelous on May 8, 2008 7:49 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Schouman?

Does anyone around here actually think Schouman has a shot at making this team?

He is 6’2, 233 pounds which is a couple inches shorter and 20 pounds lighter than a TE should be. He was drafted as an H-Back, but couldn’t make the team last season. The Bills are obviously switching to a more traditional FB, so Schouman is stuck trying to make the team at a position where he doesn’t really fit. I think he is a long shot to even make the practice squad.

by kaisertown on May 9, 2008 9:34 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Geronimo

Can you comment on some position battles that are going to be interesting in camp and where some veterans have a shot at losing their job?

CB – McGee, Greer, McKelvin, Yoboughty, Corner, James, Fox, Kenard Cox
WR – Evans, Hardy, Reed, Roscoe, S. Johnson, Justin Jenkins
TE – Royal, Schouman, C. Anderson, T. Johnson, Massaquoi

MARVelous

by MARVelous on May 8, 2008 7:56 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Comments

This would all be my opinion and nobody elses-although you can bet your last nickel though that DJ has a bunch of possible 53 man rosters in his top drawer-and looks at/and revises it with various permutations every single day. Of course—I am not privvy to that. LOL

Assuming McKelvin starts from day one-I see Greer as the nickel, Corner the dime, and Youboty in a real fight with James for another CB spot. One or possibly both will make the team. I think the two most interesting spots to watch during camp will be FS and TE. How many TEs they keep will strictly be a function of whether or not they actually keep a natural FB. It could be 3…it could be 4. I think Royal and Fine will make the team. After that, I will defer to camp. At FS-will it be Wilson? Ko? Scott? I don’t know. I found their pursuit of M. McRea in the off season interesting.

To Korupt’s earlier question regarding how they evaluate UFAs, there is one interesting thing you should know. The Bills have a distinctly different philosophy than most other NFL teams regarding UFAs. They simply do not believe in “Camp Fodder” as it is commonly referred to around here. Their feeling is that why bring in a guy who has NO chance of making the team, but whom has a good chance of getting hurt himself, or worse, hurting somebody ELSE. So-you can assume that our UFAs are pretty good players. Yes, of course their odds are long-but they all have a shot, albeit against tough, difficult odds.

They know exactly how many players need to come to camp—and by position. This is in order to script out every practice, to keep everybody fresh, and to ensure adequete reps for the most likely starters and backups. I have to admit though, I am rooting for the FB from Army, but do not know how OBD views him as of the moment.

I guess I kind of rambled here——sorry…and it probably didn’t answer the question.

Geronimo

by Geronimo on May 8, 2008 8:26 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Great news for the CB battle.

That’s how I predict and hope it will turn out as well. Youboty and/or James may be kept as situational DBs (not dime, or nickel, etc) because of their relative height advantage compared to the top 4.

GO BLUE!!!

by Kumario! on May 8, 2008 11:38 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

KR/PR

Geronimo, what would be the thinking as to KR position if McKelvin starts opposite McGee? I had always presumed that McKelvin would be brought slowly (nickel or dime) and do KRs in place of McGee, but that would be such a huge demand on a rookie if he is going to be the No.2 CB to do both KR and starting CB. On the other hand, I thought that it was already becoming a huge demand, physically and mentally, on McGee. Perhaps we have not found a KR in McKelvin, as I initially thought? Is there any possibility of Parrish doing both return duties? I would be in favor of that, but Parrish never seemed to be a candidate there (I guess Fred Jackson would be).

by labill on May 9, 2008 12:25 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Kicking Game

It will be interesting to see how they integrate McKelvin into the kicking game—his skills are undeniable. I don’t think you’ll see Roscoe as KR though. And it’s not like he would be easy to unseat as PR either. I think we are going to have to wait until camp to see how this may shake out.

Geronimo

by Geronimo on May 9, 2008 9:13 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Parrish and McKelvin

Both are electric punt returners and average or poor kick returners. McKelvin will probably function as a backup to Parrish on punt returns. In the event of a Parrish injury, we simply put McKelvin back there and we’re good.

KR's these days are stronger players that can break tackles like Josh Cribbs.  McGee does a lot  fancy dancing that works sometimes, but a KR is best off finding his seam and exploding breaking arm tackles and making a quick cut here and there.

by jj24 on May 9, 2008 9:20 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I think that we’ve made the mistake of delving too far into the differences between KR and PR, jj24. Devin Hester is the perfect example. He’s a far better PR than KR, but does his home run potential and game-changing ability in kick returns not make him an elite KR as well? McKelvin has that type of ability in both areas.

by Brian Galliford on May 9, 2008 9:32 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

There has to be a distinction.

If you have the ability to do something but you never do it then why bother trying? Brian Moorman may have the ability to eventually bench press 400 pounds but if I want that 400 pounds bench pressed right away I’m going to have someone like Jason Peters do it.

by jj24 on May 9, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

To answer your question about Hester.

No, I don’t think he is an elite kick returner. I consider kick returns and punt returns sort of like apples and oranges.

by jj24 on May 9, 2008 9:46 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I think there is a distinction

PR is about side to side speed, cutting ability and elusiveness. KR is about stright line speed and lower body strength sufficient to break tackles. It may be a subtle difference but I think there is a difference. McKelvin may have both. I do not think McGee and Roscoe do.

Geronimo

by Geronimo on May 9, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

absolutely

The cuts you make while returning a kick are more subtle, you change your angle of attack slightly, but you do it without losing speed. Kick returners go up the middle through groups of tacklers and blockers and need to have that ability to break through an arm tackle.

Punt returning is more about stop and start ability. Punt returners need that two steps and your at full speed kind of acceleration whereas kick returners can take 5 or 6 steps until they hit full speed. Punt returns are about making the first guy or two miss and trying to break it outside. I think the two are pretty different.

by kaisertown on May 9, 2008 9:58 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I see the distinction, but I’m more concerned with what makes an “elite” kick returner. I’ll use Hester as an example again – he is an elite kick returner, in my mind, because every time he touches the ball he’s a threat to change the game. Does he have elite KR numbers? No. But he’s a guy that puts fear into opponents. McKelvin can do that as a kick returner at the NFL level.

by Brian Galliford on May 9, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

We're not trying to scare the other team.

We’re trying to beat them with performance.

by jj24 on May 9, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Hester

Averaged over 30 yards a return his junior and senior seasons at Miami. He has returned 4 KRs for TDs in the NFL in just 63 returns. That is what makes him elite. McKelvin didn’t have a good yards per return average AND he hasn’t shown the ability to make the big return. 1 TD in 99 returns is usesless. 3 TDs in 99 returns would have been pretty average for someone playing in the Sun Belt conference who is supposedly an NFL caliber returner.

by kaisertown on May 9, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Still A Question

I enjoy the discussions, but if McKelvin becomes our No.2 CB, we can’t have him do KRs - that’s just too much responsibility for a rookie. If we really need to relieve McGee of KR duties (I think we do, given last year - since Clements left and McGee became No.1 CB), who would that KR be? We didn’t draft one (other than McKelvin)—so, I thought, given Parrish’s new long-term contract (and 4th spot as WR), that perhaps they were thinking that (and the more touches he gets, the better). Any way, who are the possibilities at KR otherwise (I can only think of Fred Jackson).

by labill on May 9, 2008 12:13 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

McGee is the guy this year and for the future

He already has proven himselfy as a quality kick returner. In the 150(estimation) kicks he’s returned, he has hasn’t sustained a serious injury. Usually it’s anyone but the returner who gets hurt on kickoffs.(see: Kevin Everett)

Practicing and preparing for kick returns does not hinder his defensive preparation. It’s not like the Bills do full speed kick return practice during the season. All he has to do is study a little coverage strategy of the other team and blocking schemes for ours. He only needs an hour a week to sit down with Bobby April so April can give him the low down.

The rest of the players can practice return blocking without him if they have to while McGee is working on defense. That might effect cohesion a little bit on our returns which maybe was a factor for a slight drop off in his numbers last year. Teams were playing it safe and kicking short or away from him, too.

The training camp/preseason darkhorse for KR: Xavier Omon. That’s just a joke more than anything, but he does seem to hit holes well on offense. Special teams, of course, is a different situation. Maybe we’ll throw him back there, just for a peak, in training camp. Running backs do make for good kick returners and he’s got just as good of a shot at doing it as Fred Jackson.

by jj24 on May 9, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I love McGee

as a kick returner. I think he is an absolute stud. However, you have to give McKelvin a chance and there is so much Bobby April can do now. Last year, I felt like so many teams kicked away from McGee. They can’t do that if you add McKelvin back there. Of course whoever didn’t catch it would have to try and block someone.
However, our ST’s blocking could take hits with the losses of Stamer, Aiken, Haggan, Wire. I think those losses might prove criticial when it comes to Kick coverage. That is just as important as kick returns.

Either way, no other team in the league has 3 dynamic returners like we do in Buffalo. I love the prospect of McKelvin making a pick and using those return skills to take it to the HOUSE.

MARVelous

by MARVelous on May 9, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

But

1 TD in 99 returns doesn’t show the potential at all. I realize he has fantastic athleticism, but it isn’t Hester like off the charts. Hester averaged over 30 yards a KR in college. It is rare for a player to improve statistically from college to the pros. McKelvin might have that potential, but I don’t expect to see it this year.

McGee could be the example that people bring up, but he didn’t return many kicks in college. He also didn’t return many (did he return any?) his rookie season. McGee was mainly a punt returner in college, and he wasn’t a very good one.

by kaisertown on May 9, 2008 9:52 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

CBs

Anyone else think Buffalo might keep 6 CBs on the 53 man roster next season? Considering the fact that Buffalo kept 5 last season and still ended up giving playing time to people like Butler and Fox who they signed off the street, I think it’s a strong possibility. I could see Jauron/Fewell keeping a depth chart like:

LCB

McGee
McKelvin
Youboty

RCB

James
Greer
Corner

2 QBs
3 RBs
1 FB
3 TEs
8/9 OL
6 WRs

3 Specialists

9 DL
6/7 LBs
6 CBs
5 S

...I think it would make some sense considering none of those 6 CBs would be practice squad material (either ineligible or too highly rated to clear waivers) and God knows, offenses certainly spread it around these days…That’s my guess anyway.

Never forget 56-10. Revenge.

by SuperFan82 on May 9, 2008 8:16 AM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Re:CBs

I think they’ll only keep 5 CBs, with the fifth being Youboty or James. And, from your depth chart, I can’t see them keeping six WRs, unless Goodell suspends Roscoe at the beginning of the season.

by krytime on May 9, 2008 8:25 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Six corners would make a lot of sense for many reasons

We have six “quality” players at that position whether you evaluate them by performance or potential. In McGee, James, and Greer we kind of know what we have. With McKelvin, Corner, and Youboty the jury is still out and we’re all hoping for/expecting a good verdict. Last year our DB’s fell like front line soldiers in the Civil War so we should keep quality players in reserve.

There’s always the chance Kennard Cox can earn a roster spot, too. Honestly, if he beat out James, Greer, or even Youboty for a roster spot it wouldn’t seem that shocking. Maybe he’s as good as Greer or James. Considering he has special teams potential that adds more intrigue. It’s not like James or Greer are setting the world on fire. Maybe James’ contract could be voidable for minimal penalty. Greer is a free agent after this season so why delay the inevitable at the expense of grooming a younger player with more potential?

by jj24 on May 9, 2008 9:07 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

That would shock me

Kennard Cox stunk in college

by Kurupt on May 9, 2008 11:05 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Fair enough.

Honestly there’s very little I know about his corner skills. If he does lack good skills in the secondary then we probably drafted him to play special teams. He’s probably a good consideration for the practice squad. If injuries occur to one or more of our corners, safeties, or to a guy like Jenkins, then we can call him up to to play special teams and platoon in the secondary.

by jj24 on May 9, 2008 12:16 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I hope they try him at safety

because I’d hate to see him lined up at CB, no matter how remote that seems right now.

by Kurupt on May 9, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Greer was a stud last year

He played out of his head, and I want to see him stay a bill. I’m sure we can sign him to reasonable long term contract. I also think he will be partial to stay with us, he rose from the ranks of undrafted FA with us, and I would be partial to the team that gave me that shot if I was him.

It's hard for me not to sing the shout song all day long.

by Lance in Germany on May 9, 2008 4:52 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I wouldn't call him a stud

A suprise, yes, but a stud, probably not.

He had his moments, but he also struggled at times. He wasn’t much of a help against the rush, though he was a willing tackler. He was outmuscled and easily blocked in the run game, so I didn’t see him as being the well-rounded CB we need in our D. He also played well against TO and Choad Johnson, but there’s a reason we also finished at the bottom of the league against the pass. Much of it had to do with our high school pass rush, but our secondary didn’t play all that well either. Greer (and McGee) had their issues on 3rd downs and struggled against some of the more mediocre receivers in the league. I like Greer in a nickel role, but we need McKelvin to step up from Day 1.

by Kurupt on May 9, 2008 5:06 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

#1 Cornerback Position

I know that receivers and cornerbacks sometimes change positions on the field and sometimes they don’t. However on offense, traditionally, from left to right across the offensive formation, is the X (split end), Y (slot receiver or tight end), and the Z (flanker). In general, the X receiver is considered the ”#1 receiver” position primarily because he is lined up alone on the weak side of the formation.

On the other side of the ball, on defense, I have heard some people say that the left cornerback is the ”#1 cornerback” position because it is the visual side of most quarterbacks.

Therefore, I have two questions for anyone:

1. Shouldn’t the right cornerback generally be considered the ”#1 cornerback” position because he is lined up across from the ”#1 receiver” position?

2. Does it matter where McGee and McKelvin line up? If a player is truly elite, he should be great no matter where he lines up. As I’ve mentioned before, unless McGee is really really good, McKelvin better become the Bills’ best cornerback.

by Fort Worth on May 9, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

X Receiver

Also, I forgot to mention that since the X receiver is lined up on the line of scrimmage, he is more susceptible to (and he must be able to defeat) press coverage. What does that say about the opposing cornerback?

by Fort Worth on May 9, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

LCB

I think Buffalo considers the LCB the #1 CB because right handed QBs naturally role to their right, where the LCB is usually in coverage. Statistically, more passes are thown to that side. I believe McKelvin will be a #1 CB and will man the leftside by midseason (with McGee moving over to the rightside) until his contract expires and he signs with someone else, leaving Buffalo to draft another 1st round CB.

Never forget 56-10. Revenge.

by SuperFan82 on May 9, 2008 7:48 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs

McKelvin at LCB

Will McKelvin line up exclusively or most frequently at LCB, where he will usually be assigned to cover the Z (flanker) receiver, who is typically not a team’s #1 or best receiver? I suppose that makes some (not complete) sense to me because more passes are thrown in that direction, but I don’t think he will be covering the X (split end) receiver a majority of the time.

In my opinion, Nate Clements is clearly a better cornerback than Terrence McGee, yet when Clements was not following the opponent’s best receiver around, he was usually lined up at RCB.

by Fort Worth on May 9, 2008 10:01 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

I'm waiting to see too...

Don’t ask me to defend this defense, I’m not a fan of its passive, reactive nature in the least. I think Buffalo plays their best CB to cover a certain area of the field rather than a specific receiver on most occasions. I think Jauron’s staff recognized Clements’ talent in the second half of 2006 and gave him more man assignments, fueling a more aggressive defense for several weeks and my hope is that McKelvin will be treated the same way in time. That being said, I like the personnel additions on defense this offseason and think if everything works out as it does on paper, Jauron will have the Tampa 2 working to its full potential in 2008 for the first time since he took over. While I believe there are far better defesive schemes out there, 24-26 quality defenders will succeed in any defense, no matter how limited it is. I think Buffalo’s D has enough in quality personnel to succeed next season and will be an asset as a unit for the Bills for the first time since late 2004.

Never forget 56-10. Revenge.

by SuperFan82 on May 10, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Bigot.

I never read racist authors. > : <

“Then, as people with decades in the NFL, they see chinks and problems under close-up first-hand scrutiny.”

GO BLUE!!!

by Kumario! on May 10, 2008 11:19 AM EDT reply reply 0 recs

Hilarious. Chinks in their armor. I saw this comment somewhere else, too.

by Brian Galliford on May 10, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply reply 0 recs

Thanks

Geronimo, I’ve been watching for your input over at the Bills “official” message board. This place is much better and I’m happy to be here. I always look forward for your observations. Thanks.

You touched Fine, but I am curious as to what they plan on doing with him. Many say he would work well in an offense with a H-Back. BUT, seeing as how Buffalo is getting away from that, I just wonder how TEs will be used on the whole, blockers, pass catchers? The reason is something Jauron said before the draft, they would be looking for a “pass catching” TE. I don’t think Fine is as much a down field target as he is on short routes.

Any ideas?

by BBB on May 10, 2008 5:20 PM EDT reply reply 0 recs