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Do we Cheat?

All the tech in todays games, I find it very hard to believe that the Pats are the NFL's only cheaters. Matter of fact, I bet its so popular that its probably 'normal'.

I don't think the Pats are being punished for cheating....more like getting punished for being caught and showing the dirty sides of todays NFL. Who ever does other teams 'dirty work' must be a highly trained 'NFL spy'.

So do our beloved Bills cheat? Let me just say this

I think EVERY team does what the Pats did...some better than others.

Pats got careless and sloppy, and they got caught. But can you really say with out a shadow of a doubt that just 1 team does it and that we don't?

I can't....teams will do anything to get an edge...if 30 NFL teams steal signals, those 2 teams are at a major disadvantage.

Goodell KNOWS this.....I'm sure he just has a "don't let me catch you" approach. I'm sure he doesn't WANT it to happen, but he knows he can't stop it; thus the new snazzy "microphone in the Defender's helmet rule". Whats that rule supposed to do? Even out the playing field...so defenders can get the helpful hints gathered  from stolen signals as well.

Now I've voiced my opinion on the beloved Buffalo Bills Message board and got responses like "we must really suck at cheating' and "we would have at least won a Super Bowl". My response is if EVERY team steals signals its not an unfair playing field. If anything it puts more mental strain on players and coaches to learn new signals each week.....but don't they do that anyway because every team is different? Also said was the only real argument of Pats being the sole cheaters: Wouldn't there be more? The way I see its more likely that teams are finding a ways to 'hush' their "spys" over than the idea that the Pats are the only team in the NFL that realized all the uses of a video camera.

Bill Belichick was fined and punished for getting caught. I don't like BB, I would love to see the Pats without their evil genius but any punishment other than a "slap on the wrist fine to shut the media up" is uncalled for at this time

If the Bills truly don't 'cheat', I guarantee you that we are in a minority; Its time to get with the program...and if we do cheat, keep that signal stealer fat and happy.

 

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That's self-serving logic for Pats sympathizers

Doesn’t everybody cheat on their taxes? Since it’s common knowledge that they do, I’ll just claim that kid down the street as my dependent because everyone else is making out around here…You know what? I don’t cheat on my taxes, so not everybody’s doing it. Some people cheat in life and try to justify it by personifying this “everybody” character as their partner in crime. Cheating is done on an individual basis and New England can’t justify theirs by pointing fingers at imaginary accomplices. They were caught and should be blasted back to the stoneage (or the AFL days) via punishment from the NFL. You can’t spread the blame around to “everybody” until I see every taxpayer claiming the same child.

Never forget 56-10. Revenge.

by SuperFan82 on May 9, 2008 8:29 AM EDT   0 recs

also

if what you say is true I promise we would be hearing a lot of personnel coming out after their tenure with a team saying that this spying occurred. There is not way to keep this hush if it is happening the media would have gotten a wiff by now. I don’t agree.

Another 3 rounds of starters in the draft?

by poz on May 9, 2008 9:43 AM EDT   0 recs

I hope not

since it sure hasn’t done much to help us if that’s the case….

The rest of the league is innocent until proven guilty here, IMO.

~K

by Kurupt on May 9, 2008 12:03 PM EDT   0 recs

very American of you

Another 3 rounds of starters in the draft?

by poz on May 9, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm usually just the opposite

Prove they are innocent to me!!

~K

by Kurupt on May 9, 2008 2:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Buffalo cheats

If you have any doubt that Buffalo cheats at least some of the time stop and consider that two years ago the Bills signed Jason Whittle about 17 seconds after the start of free agency. Since Whittle was property of another team (Vikings?) until free agency began at midnight, the Bills could only have signed Whittle that quickly if they had had prior negotiations with him while he was still property of another team. That is tampering, which cost the 49ers a draft choice this year (Briggs situation). Granted, the Vikings (?) didn’t have any interest in re-signing Whittle (and it’s doubtful anyone else would have either) but that’s not the point. Buffalo cheated. The league doesn’t take the free agency tampering seriously unless a team (49ers) rubs the league’s nose in it. You can make the case that the league should either ‘decriminalize’ tampering or enforce it but right now everyone is cheating.

by Ron From NM on May 9, 2008 2:45 PM EDT   0 recs

They did it earlier also

Jeff Posey was signed pretty quickly into free agency also.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on May 9, 2008 3:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

no way....

our front office is just that good at negotiating!

Another 3 rounds of starters in the draft?

by poz on May 9, 2008 3:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

true

but the Briggs thing was a little different. he wasn’t about to become a UFA when SF called. The 49ers and Rosenhaus were talking last offseason about a potential trade and they then talked again during the season about signing Briggs when the season ended. SF first called Briggs during his holdout and they were curious as to what kind of contract he was looking for if the Bears dealt him. These kinds of conversations are normal, but teams typically get permission to do so. The Bears said they had no intentions of trading him and I guess they were serious about that. Rosenhaus and the Niners really crossed a line when they re-started conversations mid-season about a potentially huge contract for Briggs come the offseason.

Personally, I don’t think calling a team’s agent an hour before FA starts and getting a general feeling of what a player is looking for and then faxing a contract offer over right at midnight is a big deal. Most of those deals are 1 year and not a lot of money. It doesn’t take much negotiating to get a contract like that done. Guys like Posey and Jeff Faine may have been negotiating too early, but I get the feeling that they just gave teams a ballpark figure of what they were looking for and then teams offered way more money than they should have at midnight to make sure they grab the player right away.

by kaisertown on May 9, 2008 3:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly, and don't forget the Combine and Pro Bowl

Thats where ALOT of the horse trading goes on regarding the FA crowd happens. And they all use the same arguement, I was just walking down the hallway when I ran into Drew Rosenhaus and he just mentioned in passing on his cell phone/friend/to another executive that Person A was looking for a FA contract of 4 years and 30 mill, 15 guranteed and that hopefully SOMEONE would offer Person A that.

Then, somehow, just at midnight Drew gets a contract from that same executive that overheard the numbers and Person A’s name and wow, they’re signed in 30 minutes, amazing!

Fear the mighty helmet wearing gopher, he is coming for your soul....

by WABillsfan on May 9, 2008 6:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That was some mighty fine rationalizing...

...but it changes nothing. The thread question was “Do we cheat?” and the answer is “Yes, we do cheat.”

It’s accurate to point out that everyone cheats in a similar manner but also meaningless. Unless and until the league changes the rules to accommodate what everyone realizes is going on the Bills are breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

I don’t like the Patriots and I’m glad they were punished for their cheating. They were, however, punished more because of the publicity surrounding their cheating than for the actual cheating itself. The same can be said of the 49ers. While everyone knows Buffalo tampered with Whittle before the start of free agency the cheating was done discretely and didn’t make the news. The 49ers’ cheating wasn’t as behind the scenes and did make the news, hence the punishment.

No team should proclaim itself or be proclaimed as holier than thou when it comes to cheating.

by Ron From NM on May 9, 2008 6:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

it depends

Are you speeding when you drive 50 in a 45?

In the NHL rulebook it says that any player who swears is engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct and that they will be penalized. When Hockey players swear are they breaking the rules?

Are you really breaking the rules if someone you know happened to talk to an agent and that agent told your buddy that Whittle would sign for 750,000, or whatever the total was, is it really cheating if you then prepare a contract and fax it over to Whittle at exactly midnight and he accepts?

I don’t think teams really negotiate before midnight and that is the rule. You cannot negotiate. If the Bills hear Whittle wants a mil and then the Bills “make it known” that they would be willing to give him 750,000 instead, then that is negotiating and is illegal.

Rosenhaus and SF were negotiating a contract. I remember hearing that Rosenhaus was even trying to negotiate the compensation that the Bears would get from SF in exchange for Briggs. That is a pretty serious offense if he doesn’t have permission to do it.

i think if a league or organization or the police or whoever has made it clear that there won’t be consequences for something, then it is acceptable to do so. And I don’t mean its OK as long as you dont get caught. I mean if you can j-walk in front of a police station, then j-walking isn’t really a crime.

by kaisertown on May 9, 2008 9:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The answer is yes

Right and wrong is black and white. We make it gray by rationalizing our decisions.

by Joe P. on May 9, 2008 10:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It doesn't depend

Speeding is illegal. When you get a ticket “Everybody does it” and “I was only breaking the law a little” aren’t successful defenses. Consequenses are doled out intermittentlyin most instances. However, cameras were installed in one city to catch 100% of people who ran red lights. The result was predictable: driver compliance with traffic signals reached virtually 100%. Running the red light by just a second brought a ticket just as certainly as running the light by 10 seconds. Enforcement works.

The Bills clearly negotiated with Whittle before they were permitted to do so under league rules. There’s not much difference between “We’ll pay you $750,000” and “In theory, we think that a lineman of your abilities is worth about $750,000”. Buffalo wasn’t allowed to talk to him at all-or talk to his agent about him-until after midnight and obviously worked out a deal beforehand.

The league has a history of not caring, so long as no one complains and the story doesn’t make the news. That lack of enforcement doesn’t change the fact that teams are breaking the rule. The NFL could abandon the rule, continue to ignore the infractions or enforce it consistently. Eventually, it will become an issue for the league when someone like Jerry Jones complains bitterly and publicly that someone like Dan Snyder has tampered with some soon-to-be free agent that Jones wanted and Snyder got.

by Ron From NM on May 9, 2008 11:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly, keep it quite and the NFL doesn’t care because the people don’t know.

Make a big deal (49er’s/Briggs and Spygate) and the NFL is forced to act to protect its image.

Official 12th Man

by TheyCallMeAndy on May 10, 2008 6:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

taping signs

If other teams taped signals, the media would have figured it out by now.

I honestly think it is ridiculous to assume any other team would attempt to try something this bold.

For starters, NFL signals are pretty complex and it would really take a lot of work to figure out the signals.

It is clearly cheating. This isn’t a grey area. It isn’t even close. It is just wrong on a professional and moral level.

If every team knew what was coming, wouldn’t you notice it while watching a game. Players bite on play action, counter runs and pump and go routes far too often for me to think the players have any idea what the other team is calling. Tight ends consistently fool linebackers by blocking for a second and then releasing, especially around the goal line. Quarterbacks would know CB blitzes are coming and offenses would be able audible out of run plays or use hot routes more effectively than I have seen.

But most importantly, the media made a huge deal out of spygate and I’m sure a lot of people looked into the possibiliy of other teams doing the same thing. If it were happening wouldn’t some stupid player slip up and say that the Pats weren’t the only team doing it? Wouldn’t a coach’s assistant with some super high moral code blow the whistle at some point? I find it really hard to believe that anyone else was doing this.

by kaisertown on May 9, 2008 9:30 PM EDT   0 recs

media

Remember, the media only made a huge deal of spygate when fans became outraged that the games they paid for over this decade were found out to be compromised. The media’s original stance was that the issue wasn’t a big deal and for an entire year, CBS, NBC, Peter King, Inside the NFL, and ESPN spun Goodell’s creed that spygate was a dead issue. The Walsh tapes were deemed “unnewsworthy” before they were even examined. This whole thing was so crooked that it’s exhausting to even bother with it anymore and I think fans are tired of it just as the NFL intended…the nonsense about signing players after midnight of free agency isn’t relevant to this issue…things that happen in March need to be policed internally by the NFL because its their business; things that happen on the field from September through January are my business because I’m a paying customer and need to be dealt with a far heavier hand. I didn’t pay to watch Tom Brady being spoonfed my team’s playbook. I paid to see my undermatched team get a fair crack at bloodying him- no matter how unlikely thatw as given our poor personnel and coaching thnis decade. Spygate was fraud against the fans and Goodell swept it under the rug- plain and simple.

Never forget 56-10. Revenge.

by SuperFan82 on May 10, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Contradiction

SuperFan (Doomed?), you say that you don’t think that cheating in free agency is something fans really should care about and we should instead only care about what goes on during the games. Has it occurred to you that the cheating in free agency has a direct impact on the games? Teams are obtaining a competitive advantage on the field by tampering with soon-to-be free agents. They are trying to bring the best guys to their team and setting up a deal in advance of free agency is a way to do it. You complain that the NFL is sweeping Spygate under the rug. Well, the rampant cheating in free agency is the huge dust bunny in the room that the NFL and everyone doesn’t even bother to sweep under the rug.

I think I read on buffalobills.com that the Bills were bringing extra communication gear to Foxboro last year. (I might have read it somewhere else and it may have referred to another team but the point holds.) Evidently teams have complained for the past several years that the communication gear provided by Foxboro tends to have ‘issues’. It would be interesting to see if this was in some way related to the offensive signals stealing. After all, if you sabatoge the electronics wouldn’t the opposing team have to use signals?

by Ron From NM on May 10, 2008 4:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Fantastic point…FORCE teams to use signals.

Official 12th Man

by TheyCallMeAndy on May 10, 2008 6:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm not to sure about the logic

There is a very fine line between cheating and getting the upper hand. Technology is making it possible to get the upper hand on every down. BUT, the NFL recongnized this and had guidelines of what you can tape and what you cannot. Do you really think that Pat’s are sloppy and it was their fault they were caught…Doesn’t fit their organizations MO. Billy boy is a surgeon when it comes to planning…He is not sloppy. Did Man-”genious” (haha, sorry I have to laugh at that, he sure is wonderful huh?) know about what Bill was doing? Maybe he knew they were cheating and blew them in. If he was cheating as well the Pat’s would have swung it back and made accusations. This whole thing tarnished their superbowls…they wouldn’t just lay down and take it. I worked for the Bills during the summer and I have talked to a lot of different coaches…Dick Jauron is not a cheater. And honestly if we were cheating….wouldn’t we be winning?

by SBbe4idie on May 10, 2008 2:58 PM EDT   0 recs

Pats-Jets fued

Don’t you remember, SBbe4idie? Belicheat didn’t want Man-not-a-genius to take the Jets job. Man-not-a-genius was the Pats’ defensive coordinator so he knew all about the ways in which the Patriots cheated. Also, while it is obvious now that the Patriots were cheating how many people watching the games on TV or in the stands noticed some non-player with a small camcorder pointed at the opposing sideline? The Pats only got caught because Man-not-a-genius ratted them out. Even then it only mattered because it made the news.

by Ron From NM on May 10, 2008 4:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Pats

they aren’t perfect. I don’t think their MO has anything to do with being sloppy of not. Tom Brady and experienced LBs are the Pats bread and butter if you ask me.

This is the same Bill Belichick that got caught making several phone calls PER DAY, using his office phone, to a woman he was having an affair with. That sounds pretty sloppy to me. Arrogance leads to thinking you are above the rules and that you won’t get caught. Roger Clemens is another example of someone who thinks the rules just don’t apply to him.

by kaisertown on May 10, 2008 4:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

“And honestly if we were cheating….wouldn’t we be winning?”

Not if the playing field is even (both teams spying) and the cheating offers no advantage. Why do teams do it? Simple, the team that stops is at a disadvantage.

Official 12th Man

by TheyCallMeAndy on May 10, 2008 6:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Cheating is not Black and White

There are many things in this world that are not just black and white. I make career decisions daily that fall into the gray area. Problems are not black and white, therefore solutions also cannot be black and white.

Remember the Elastic clause to the Constitution, this was created because our forefathers knew nothing can be defined as black and white. Goodell is not only punishing the obvious media circus violations, he is doing it across the board. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure the NFL keeps many situations “mum”, that the public never knows about. Media will blow dumb stories out of proportion and the NFL doesnt want anything negative said about them.

Although, I’m sure the bills don’t video tape opponents signals…...I dont have any proof. Also video taping the opponent only helps when reading signals. Good coaches will break down game film to study opponent tendancies. For example, Bills Off on 3rd and 2. The Eagles coaches watch game film and Know that the bills Offense has called a power slam run left between the guard and tackle. Therefore Eagles D calls a run blitz up that same hole. This example was a perfect example of film study. Knowing the signal will obviously work better than breaking down film, but teams use mutliple signals to call the same play. (like the 3rd base coach in baseball does to the batter).

To conclude, not all teams cheat by taping signals. I’m sure they all have called FA players agent’s (like 2weeks after the superbowl and 2 weeks before FA period begins.) But that cannot be seen as Cheating on the same plane as Stealing signals. Therefore Gray area and NOT black and White.

Would you rather win one superbowl or Lose four in a row? Which defines your teams place in history more ... 1yr wonder or Perennially 2nd best?

by Rudy916 on May 11, 2008 7:05 PM EDT   0 recs

I disagree

It is against the rules or not. Lawyers find loop holes, but we all know the intent of the rule. You are only fooling yourself. The classic example is; Do you steal food to feed your starving family? Like it or not, stealing is wrong, but we justify that it is OK under that circumstance. I am not saying I would not steal food to feed my starving family, but it would still be wrong.

by Joe P. on May 11, 2008 7:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I get real nervous

When I agree with you as this much.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on May 12, 2008 7:07 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, we can't have that!!!

I am sure once I get a chance to respond to your latest fan post on the 2009 draft, it will help calm your nerves.

by Joe P. on May 12, 2008 11:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I just don't agree.

I agree that rules are rules. But, there is difference between the severity between rules. All I’m really trying to say is there is no way rules can cover every possiblity, hence the gray area. Unfortunately, I dont know all the NFL rules, but I’m sure there are instances that aren’t exactly covered by the rules. I do understand the examples I provided do not exemplify a gray area. I just wish I could come up with a football example….......

Would you rather win one superbowl or Lose four in a row? Which defines your teams place in history more ... 1yr wonder or Perennially 2nd best?

by Rudy916 on May 12, 2008 9:26 PM EDT   0 recs

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