Of Tight and Defensive Ends

by poz on Jul 11, 2008 9:44 PM EDT

As Bills news is tough to come by these days, I thought I would throw out for discussion some Buffalo observations made over at rotoworld.com

Exhibit A

"Bills RE Aaron Schobel could see more one-on-one opportunities following the team's addition of DT Marcus Stroud. Stroud will play nose in Buffalo and be asked to fill two gaps. Schobel got more offensive attention and had a career-low 6.5 sacks in 2007. If Stroud stays healthy, Schobel should easily record double-digit QB takedowns."

Exhibit B

"Coach Dick Jauron confirmed that all the Bills' depth chart spots at tight end are up for grabs. Coming off knee surgery, Robert Royal has to earn his starting job back. "It's unsettled," Jauron said. The Bills anticipate Royal being 100% by the start of training camp, but he'll be pushed hard by Derek Schouman and Derek Fine."

I find the key word from Exhibit A being that rotoworld believes that a healthy Stroud means an easy double digit sack total for Schobel. I know some here will have qualms with that.

Poll

Which TE do you want to start for Bills in 2008?

Robert Royal

46 votes

Derek Schouman

107 votes

Derek Fine

24 votes

Another player

31 votes

208 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost written by a registered user of Buffalo Rumblings.

0 recs | Comment 35 comments |

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Comments

Much as I hate to say it,

I don’t think this team is ready to replace Royal yet. He’s probably the best blocker (up on the line of scrimmage) of the bunch, so that pretty much makes him the starter by default. I think it’s his job to lose at this point.

Schobel may not have an easy time of getting double digit sacks this season, but I think it will happen with the quality & depth we have on that D-line right now. #94 just works too hard at it for it not to happen. Go get’em, Aaron! (Especially that #12 for the Patriots)

Get the Bills back to the big game!

by Blitz on Jul 11, 2008 2:21 PM EDT 0 recs

Schobel

He still saw one-on-one blocking more often than not. It wasn’t just that he didn’t rack up sacks, but didn’t even get pressure much of the time.

Chalk me up as one who doesn’t believe the Stroud addition will have a significant impact on Schobel’s pass rushing ability this year. If Schobel can beat one-on-one blocking more than he did last year, he’ll be able to improve on his own without the “assistance” of Stroud. I’m not convinced that all of a sudden Schobel will see ZERO double teams and I’m not convinced he’s going to rebound either.

by Kurupt on Jul 11, 2008 2:23 PM EDT 0 recs

Schobel should see more sacks

because he’ll be playing against the NFC West this year, not the NFC East. Plus a healthier DE rotation will mean his tongue isn’t dragging on the turf at the end of the game (or the season). Add in the fact that our DT situation is better than last year, and it spells more opportunities for Schobel to get the extra sacks.

Get the Bills back to the big game!

by Blitz on Jul 11, 2008 2:30 PM EDT up 0 recs

Pressures

Actually I think he was among the league leaders in QB pressures (43 I think). I’ll see if I can document that.

by PozDispenser on Jul 11, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up 0 recs

Is there a source somewhere that proves he saw one-on-one blocking more often than not last season? I can’t believe that to be true – he’s the one guy opposing teams had to shut down to dominate Buffalo’s defense, and they did it more often than not.

What I found more interesting was the fact that they’re reporting that Stroud will be asked to fill 2 gaps. 2-gap tackles aren’t traditional in a Tampa 2…

by Brian Galliford on Jul 11, 2008 9:49 PM EDT up 0 recs

Doubt it

but how was he double teamed? He was chipped by RB’s and TE’s, but I highly doubt he faced full on double teams that often. Especially when you consider all the WR’s that were able to roam free in our secondary. I’m sorry but I don’t believe that Schobel needed double teams to be shut down, he’s been shut down one-on-one plenty of times. He’s been an inconsistent pass rusher his whole career, regardless of sack #’s, and unless Ron from NM proves me wrong by looking at all those games AGAIN I don’t think we’d see a high number of double teams. I’m willing to make another prediction like I did last summer that Schobel doesn’t see more than 8 sacks again this year.

We need a pass rusher opposite him in the worst way. I really can’t envision a stouter middle helping him all that much.

And is Stroud going to be on the field in certain pass situations, always? I would imagine McCargo and Johnson see a lot of time in that role.

by Kurupt on Jul 12, 2008 1:53 AM EDT up 0 recs

Williams drew a lot of double teams

I didn’t record the number of double teams Williams drew (partly because I was watching opposing centers moreso than specific DTs) but he did see quite a few double teams. When the team went for straight one-on-one blocking on pass downs the center generally floated in the middle waiting for a blitzing LB and/or helped out a guard with one of the DTs. I’d be shocked if Schobel drew double teams more than 10%-15% of pass plays.

by Ron From NM on Jul 12, 2008 9:57 AM EDT up 0 recs

Schobel has averaged 10 sacks a year for the last 6 years. The only other players in the league that have 60+ sacks in the last 6 years are Dwight Freeney and Jason Taylor. That’s still an impressive number, even if his production dropped last year.

On the TE question – I want Fine to start, simply because if he is, that means he’s actually better than Royal. Fine’s skill level is pretty much an unknown right now, so it’s hard to tell what he could do. Though I’d be very surprised if he did become the starter.

by Krenn on Jul 11, 2008 2:27 PM EDT 0 recs

since 2001

I think you are right with those stats, if my memory serves me right I think Schobel has the most sacks in the league since 2001 besides Jason Taylor. I think Stroud staying healthy period is a bigger question makr than what to expect from Schobel.

I like Schouman to start because I feel like he has experience like Royal but is athletic like Fine.

McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year

by poz on Jul 11, 2008 2:38 PM EDT up 0 recs

I hope Rotoworld is right about Schobel. The most frustrating thing to watch last year (it is a long list, but at the top for me anyway) was when opposing QBs had minutes to throw the ball. That annoys me to no end.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Jul 11, 2008 2:42 PM EDT 0 recs

Yes

ABSOLUTELY NO END… and then the guy chasing him is Kevin Williams if it does happen and then they throw the ball for a third down conversion anyway. Boy does it make me sick to think about, but hey, I’m trying to forget that. I also heard or read some things about Schoebel dropping back in coverage many times last year and to me, that is crap. He needs to be rushing the passer any chance he gets as he is our best a DE to do so. The stat floating on this post about Schoebel having 60+ sacks since 2001 is no fluke, and that to me spells consistency. Last year was a very tough year for the defense and I can see no where to go but up.

This town needs an enema!

by killascript on Jul 11, 2008 2:47 PM EDT up 0 recs

I don’t buy that Stroud will create fewer double teams for Schobel. Zone blocking systems might lead to the occasional double team when DEs stunt or try to beat the tackles inside, but how often are DEs double-teamed by a tackle and a guard? Since Stroud won’t draw the attention of tight ends at all and will rarely see RBs and FBs trying to chip him while starting routes, what difference can stroud make for Schobel? The only thing that will cause fewer double-teams for Schobel would be a better pass rush on the other side.

Schouman can’t start. The guy is listed at 223. He isn’t a tight end and at that weight he can only be used situationally. Royal is by far the best blocker on the team and since the Bills will do a lot of running on first downs, Royal is the guy yet again. Juaron saying that the TE situation is “unsettled” is jsut offseason coach speak. I don’t buy that Royal won’t be starting just like Jon Kitna really isn’t competing for his job.

by kaisertown on Jul 11, 2008 3:14 PM EDT 0 recs

Great point about double-teaming Schobel. Chances are he would see the same kind of attention with Marcus Stroud as without. I think however, that Kawika Mitchell could cause fewer double teams. I can’t imagine the Bills picking up an excellent blitzer in Mitchell and not using him in that capacity. That’ll help Schobel.

I’ve seen a lot of issues with Schouman’s listed weight, but I’m skeptical that its actually representative of his size/strength. I can’t imagine that they’ve updated it since he was drafted: hey don’t even have a picture of him yet. Lets get some info on him when the pads are on before dismissing him at the line of scrimmage. It very possible they could rip through him like paper streamers, but we don’t know that from a number.

by PozDispenser on Jul 11, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up 0 recs

BUT

Schoebel may not lose the double team, but If you don’t double team Stroud, he can sack the qb and cause just as much trouble, if not more than Schoebel.

All contingent on the health of one 6’6” Marcus Stroud

This town needs an enema!

by killascript on Jul 11, 2008 11:42 PM EDT up 0 recs

Double teaming Stroud opens up the middle

where Mitchell or Poz can roam free on blitzes. I don’t see how Schobel or Kelsay and their extremely wide and upfield pass rushes will be helped by any double teaming of Stroud.

by Kurupt on Jul 12, 2008 1:55 AM EDT up 0 recs

Teyo Johnson

He is playing for the Calgary Stampeders in the CFL.

by the Skycap on Jul 11, 2008 8:48 PM EDT 0 recs

Wow

Schouman running away with the poll here.

McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year

by poz on Jul 12, 2008 12:35 PM EDT 0 recs

All because of some workouts in shorts

Wow, the kid couldn’t even make the opening day roster last year and now everyone thinks he should be starting at TE for us? Just wondering but what has he proven to anyone?

by Kurupt on Jul 12, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up 0 recs

I voted for Royal

Not because I think he’s a great TE, just because he’s the best of the available options. (Some cruel bastard could put up a poll about who should start at C and I’d have to vote Fowler for the same reason.) Schouman was a non-factor last season and he wouldn’t have even made it off the practice squad if it wasn’t for all of the injures. I’ve got a Boise State friend who claims that Schouman was really good in college and a steal for Buffalo. Maybe he is but we haven’t seen any proof of it yet. Royal’s hands of stone seem to help with blocking…

by Ron From NM on Jul 12, 2008 1:03 PM EDT up 0 recs

Exactly

I’m with you and Ron.

I don’t even view Schouman as a TE. I still think he is an H-Back that is left over from the Fairchild experiment. Also can we now refer to the years of Fairchild as a coordinator as the “the Fairchild experiment”?

Do I really have to copy and paste that list of all the TEs that caught 30 passes and their weights?

by kaisertown on Jul 12, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up 0 recs

Ditto

by Joe P. on Jul 12, 2008 9:11 PM EDT up 0 recs

I think it has to do with the potential

If I remember correctly, before last season there was talk in the off-season about flashes of athleticism that Schouman was demonstrating . With similar rumblings coming out this off-season I would say it has to do with either an (a) willingness to trust in potential of Schouman (as ron mentioned he was good in college) or (b) a hope that Schouman pulls through and takes the job from Royal.

This is why the Derek Fine pick didn’t make any sense to me. He’s Schouman part 2.

McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year

by poz on Jul 12, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up 0 recs

The Derek Fine pick doesn't make a lot of sense on any level

Actually I don’t think picking Fine made a lot of sense on any level. The Bills haven’t had a stud at the position since Riemersma. This kid was definitely second or third tier among the available tight ends coming out. He’s not huge, he’s not known as a blocker, he’s not known to be a game breaker like Watson or the guy from Dallas. He’s a slightly larger Shouman, one year removed.
So all I can come up with is: a.) he’s insurance in case Royal doesn’t recover from surgery; or b.) he’s a special team special request by Bobby April, or c.) he’s training camp fodder that either gets stashed on the practice squad, or gets cut at the end of preseason after he fulfills his role.
I liked this year’s draft. I didn’t like this pick. I wish the Bills would look at their Fullback and Tight End positions seriously for once.

by Defensewinsgames on Jul 12, 2008 3:17 PM EDT up 0 recs

You beat me to it.

I still think the Redskins had our draft and probably will unless McKelvin beats out Greer for the #2 CB slot AND Hardy has a solid rookie year AND Ellis quickly displaces Kelsay on at least passing downs.

by Ron From NM on Jul 12, 2008 3:25 PM EDT up 0 recs

Yea they did

the redskins did have a draft we needed here in Buffalo however, if McKelvin turns out to be the stud he has the potential to be and Hardy becomes a presence this draft would have been worth it. Let’s face it, our secondary already looks better with McKelvin just on the roster period. If Ellis can become a solid situational pass rusher we’ve made major strides.

McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year

by poz on Jul 12, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up 0 recs

I'm not saying we had a bad draft

I still am at a loss as to certain aspects of the Bills’ draft but I won’t go so far as to call it bad. Can you imagine the fits Buffalo could have caused defensive coordinators with Lynch, Davis, Evans, Thomas/Sweed/Kelly, and Hardy on the field all at the same time? The trades were obviously there to be made…. Here’s hoping McKelvin, Hardy and Ellis make us forget all about what could have been, or that the team didn’t find a replacement for Fowler.

Yes, I’m still bitter over the failure to address center. Does it show?

by Ron From NM on Jul 12, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up 0 recs

always shows

your bitterness over our situation at center always shows my friend! haha. I do agree with you and kaiser below in that I feel our first three picks especially, we had a good draft but with some head scratchers thrown in. I got to know Ron, did you play center in high school?

McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year

by poz on Jul 12, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up 0 recs

No, just bitter over the Bills' habit of overlooking the position.

by Ron From NM on Jul 12, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up 0 recs

Well I think McKelvin easily beats out Greer who I believe the Bills fans really gave too much credit to last year.

And the redskins draft looks good on paper, but WR and TE create the most draft busts (other than QB of course). And I think Kelly is a huge bust that never becomes more than a 3/4 type possesion receiver. He is Ernest Wilford all over again. Fred Davis is already getting ripped apart down in DC for struggling with work ethic and having trouble picking up the playbook. The early money is on him never reaching his potential. And wasn’t it this very site that was screaming for the Bills to address their DE play on draft day?

The Bills had a great first 3 picks. Feel free to rip them for what they did after that.

by kaisertown on Jul 12, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up 0 recs

When you're right, you're right.

Once you get into the fourth round, and especially past the first 120 picks, it’s a crap shoot, and the Bills addressed their top three needs nicely. Each of these guys has a very good chance of contributing, even starting eventually (Hardy immediately). You can’t have everything, and the Bills did a good job with the opportunities they had. Maybe they got a diamond in the rough in Fine, or maybe Shouman shows us something that we haven’t seen yet in TC. Hard to believe I’m already thinking about next year’s draft.
13 days and counting.

by Defensewinsgames on Jul 12, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up 0 recs

Riemersma was a seventh round pick, just for the record...

by krytime on Jul 12, 2008 9:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

I don't think that's really it, the workout in shorts...

I’ve been pretty steadfast about this – usually the greatest imrovement a player makes is during the offseason between his first year and second year. That guy has the beneft of having a season under his belt, even if he didn’t dress much. He gets to spend time in an offseason conditioning program geared towards playing pro ball, and not toward combine scores.

I think Schouman has a decent chance to be a player. Obviously, someone on the staff last year liked him enough to draft him.

by krytime on Jul 12, 2008 9:34 PM EDT up 0 recs

I think that 'someone' is coaching in Colorado now

No, I actually know that a coach from Boise State joined the Bills (Kugler?) and raved about Schouman—from stories on Buffalobills.com not some inside scoop. If he can’t bulk up some they could maybe turn him into a FB…

by Ron From NM on Jul 12, 2008 10:08 PM EDT up 0 recs

Yeah, you got it right, Ron – Sean Kugler, who was the Asst. OL coach last season (currently the OL coach), was an import from Boise State and recommended Schouman.

by Brian Galliford on Jul 12, 2008 10:17 PM EDT up 0 recs

I thought Kugler was it - I wasn't sure though..

I’m not giving Schouman a chance because I now anything about him that the rest of you don’t know. I’m just giving him a chance based on the beliefs I’ve stated above.

I really do think that 1st offseason makes a difference…

by krytime on Jul 12, 2008 11:23 PM EDT up 0 recs