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2008 Bills Training Camp: Day Twelve Breakdown


Reed (right) continues to sit out with back issue (Photo Source)

The Buffalo Bills are four days away from opening their 2008 pre-season schedule with a visit to Washington, and the team continued its training camp preparations last night despite nearly being driven off the field due to inclement weather.

Rain delayed practice twice, but the Bills were able to complete their full session as they head into Wednesday's 1PM practice.

Not participating in Tuesday night's practice were SS Donte Whitner (ankle), WR Josh Reed (back) and DE Copeland Bryan (hamstring).  Whitner and Reed are expected to be back on the field by the end of the week and should see some (albeit very little) playing time on Saturday.  Rookie WR James Hardy (hamstring) and veteran CB Will James (groin) were scheduled to return to the practice field last night, but due to the slick weather conditions participated only in individual drills.  They should be full go today.

Interesting Debate
An interesting debate that can arise out of a situation like last night is whether or not it's a good thing to have to fight through a practice in those types of weather conditions.  Clearly, the Bills are a young football team, and a large percentage of their most important players have not had to deal with harsh weather conditions on a regular basis before.  That'll happen often in Buffalo.  At the same time, this is just practice - and the team is, in fact, attempting to answer a lot of questions and install a new offense prior to the start of the important games.  There are definitely two strong (opposing) arguments to make.

I'd be very interested to hear what everyone here believes about this topic.

S. Johnson at DE?
As the Bills' defense practiced in nickel packages last night, there was one surprise player playing outside at defensive end:

Spencer Johnson got some reps at defensive end in the nickel package.

This is curious.  Perhaps I'm not seeing the positive spin on this, but this doesn't make a ton of sense to me.  Do I think Spencer Johnson can play end?  Certainly - he's probably the quickest, most explosive athlete the Bills have at defensive tackle.  But to play him outside on passing downs?  To me, that sacrifices some of what little pass rush the Bills already have.  Johnson would be a force to be reckoned with on run downs, but I'd rather see them sub in a guy like Chris Ellis for passing downs.

Clearly, it's far too early to get worked up about this - or to believe it's a permanent wrinkle that Perry Fewell is installing - but it's definitely something to think about.

Youboty Still Making Plays
It seems that every practice, CB Ashton Youboty - seemingly buried on the depth chart - makes one or two good plays.  Maybe it's because he's working on throws made by Gibran Hamdan most of the time, but it also speaks volumes about his work ethic.  He's working his tail off to prove he still belongs on this team; maybe the light is about to go on for this kid.

Ashton Youboty made a nice over the shoulder interception on a deep pass down the sideline from J.P. Losman. Youboty also had a pass breakup late in practice.

Rookie Reggie Corner continues to take first-team nickel back reps with James sidelined, and as krytime discusses, he's been one of the more surprising players on the field for the Bills through the first week-plus of camp.  He leads the team with three interceptions to date.  Leodis McKelvin worked outside with the second unit and also saw some reps in the nickel package with the second unit, as they continue to experiment with ways to get their top draft pick onto the field.

The Bills practice at 1PM today.  They follow it up with another night practice Thursday, a closed practice Friday, and then they hit the field in Washington for the first live game action of the 2008 season.

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Johnson at DE?

Maybe the Bills will try and fill the Peters void with either Kelsey or Denney at RT and wanted to see if Johnson could play end?

On a serious note, does anyone happen to know if some of the Bills’ preseason games will be tape-delayed (like some have been) in Rochester this year?

by LGB on Aug 6, 2008 9:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Or this could allow them to cut Jason Jefferson, since his primary role is as a backup at both DT and DE?

by Krenn on Aug 6, 2008 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Johnnson at DE

This makes sense to me. Look don’t expect Johnson on 3rd and 10s. Johnson is a interesting fit at DE on 3rd and 4-6 yards. How many times have you screemed to watch the draw or halfback end around as the DE gets run over. Well it will be much harder to run of Johnson that it is to run over Ellis, Denney, Kelsay and probably Schrobel as he will be better at the ponit of attack.

Also, I think they are seeing what they have if Denney, Kelsay or Schrobel go down and Ellis is not ready to get major snaps.

I think Johnson is an underrated player who will add a lot more than most of us expect to the D line rotation not just the DT rotation. They say he is by far the quickest DT we have and therefore if we use him on 2-3 downs a game at DE you are getting your best players on the field. It is about being innovative, something the great teams (Ex. Patriots) do very well, and I am all for them trying this out in preseason.

Also, Krenn hit it perfectly. I think the Bills want to keep 8 on the DL: Stroud, Williams, McC, John, Schr, Ellis, Den, Kels. If they can have John as the 5th DE or even 4th if Ellis needs time then it gives the coaching staff more security. This also might allow them to keep 6 Cb’s and 5 Safety’s.

I think I would actually like a DL in a 3rd and 5 situation to be Schrobel, Stroud, McCargo, Johnson…seems much more intimating to me than with Denney or Kelsay.

by Berg79 on Aug 6, 2008 9:56 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t want the Bills practicing in pouring rain. Yes they do need to learn how to play in extreme weather conditions to truly excel here in Buffalo, but rain isn’t something that is Buffalo specific. All of these guys have played in rain and high winds before. If Buffalo could somehow simulate 5 degree weather or a snow induced lack of visibility than that might actually be helpful. To me, the risk of injury outweighs any possible gains that could come out of practicing in the rain.

The Spencer Johnson at DE thing intrigues me but, only because I doubt the Bills will put him in true pass-rushing situations. Berg summed it up very well. I think the Bills move away from 220 pound “true” cover 2 LBs might make them more inclined to use their nickel package more often. If the Bills are ever defending a 2 score lead in the second half, they could use a nickel package pretty often that could include Spencer Johnson. If the Pats continue to throw the ball all over the place like they did last year, the nickel could become something the Bills use on first down sometimes too.

It is WAY too early to give up on Youboty. He is a 24 year old player entering his third year. He has solid size and a great athletic package. If in 5 years, Reggie Corner is in the league still and Youboty isn’t, I will be surprised.

by kaisertown on Aug 6, 2008 10:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Care for a friendly wager Kaisertown?

I’ll take Corner; you take Youboty. Make it a six pack?

by krytime on Aug 6, 2008 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thoughts

I wouldn’t read a heckuva lot about Johnson getting some reps at DE in the nickel. Just part of the normal preseason experimentation you see at every NFL camp. We’ll learn more once the 4 preseason games actually begin.

I would never want the boys out there in slippery conditions unless it were an actual game. The field turf at St. John Fisher does not drain very well. Why risk a pulled hammy/groin etc.

Geronimo

by Geronimo on Aug 6, 2008 10:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If anything..

I wouldn’t mind seeing Spencer play DE on obvious run downs, and not so much passing downs.

And for my two cents – I definitely wouldn’t play in slippery conditions.

by krytime on Aug 6, 2008 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Injuries like hamstring pulls

or groin pulls do NOT do well in wet conditions. It is very easy to aggravate those even when it’s dry. It’s an absolute disaster when it’s wet.

I thought one of the reasons for bringing in Spencer was his ability to play any position on the D line, including DE. This is just a chance to get him a few rep’s at DE. Big deal. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the NY Giants use 4 DE’s on occasion (i.e. – obvious passing situations)?

Corner has been a pleasant surprise so far, but I hope the Bills’ staff don’t pull the plug on Youboty just yet (heck, he only turned 24 last month). Ashton still has a chance to contribute to this team this year.

Get the Bills back to the big game!

by Blitz on Aug 6, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Is Johnson at DE a surprise to anyone???

We knew coming in he had gotten snaps there in Minnesota. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that we’re working him there some. I expect to see him in there on some run downs replacing the ever useless Kelsay and giving Schobel a blow. I also see Johnson getting some snaps on 3rd down at DT to rush the passer alongside Stroud. The nickel role is a little surprising, but Ellis is still getting his feet wet, so it’s not a total shock. We have to cover all bases right now, so guys aren’t thrust into completely random roles come September, just in case. Also, can he be any worse rushing the passer than Kelsay or Denney??? Doubt it…

I don’t see the need to practice in slick conditions right now. No need to pile up the injuries before preseason game #1. I know they need reps and everything, but injuries can really sidetrack a young, improving team. The regular season this won’t be an issue (see the Fieldhouse).

CB….loving the depth, worried about the top. Anybody else as concerned as I am about McKelvin still getting backup reps? Even behind another rookie in Corner, who had what, a two day headstart on him? I’m concerned that McKelvin will make even less of an impact that hoped. Of course, it’s still August 6th, so I’m not that concerned.

I also love what Corner is doing, from his play on the field to his blog on BB.com. Glad to have a guy like this, even if he does have some physical limitations. I loved hearing about his ball skills and playmaking ability from college, and it sounds like it’s already translating over. We absolutely NEED players like that in our D.

And again, I’m happy with the way Youboty is progressing. There’s so much anger towards that guy from Bills fans, it’s amazing. Even Brian, you seem a bit biased against him (Maybe it’s because he’s working on throws made by Gibran Hamdan most of the time). I love that he’s working hard and making plays, and I still think he makes this team, especially with James’ groin injury, which could become nagging, and McKelvin’s slower learning curve. We need a guy like Youboty, and he’s a good ST to boot. I think he sticks and helps us this year. I hope he does too.

~K

by Kurupt on Aug 6, 2008 12:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No, K, it’s not a surprise that Johnson is working at DT. The surprise lies in the fact that he’s working there in nickel packages. That’s where the only surprise lies; clearly he was going to get some work outside, a la Jason Jefferson.

If I seem biased toward Youboty, I don’t intend to be – I happen to think he should be higher on Buffalo’s depth chart than he currently is. I think he’s a better talent than Will James, and the fact that they’re force-feeding Corner into a role bigger than Youboty sort of disgusts me. I think he’s getting a raw deal, and I hope he makes a ton of plays this pre-season and sticks with the team.

by Brian Galliford on Aug 6, 2008 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disgust is sort of a strong word here, isn't it?

I too think he has more potential than James. But we’ve been going on potential with this kid for over two years running already. If Corner is getting the workload, I’d have to imagine it’s because he’s deserving of it.

Right now, if they keep 5 CBs, it’s pretty safe to say the battle is between James and Ashton, correct?

by krytime on Aug 6, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disgust isn’t too strong a word for me. If they can play Copeland Bryan ahead of Chris Ellis, they can play Youboty ahead of Corner. But they haven’t done it.

Yes, McGee/Greer/McKelvin/Corner are locks to make the roster, and James probably is too. But I’d say Corner is more of a lock than James at this point. I think there are 5 locks at the position, to be completely honest, and Youboty will be at the mercy of what goes on during the pre-season.

by Brian Galliford on Aug 6, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apples and Oranges

I don’t think you can throw in the Bryan/Ellis battle into the CB mix. I think that’s completely different.

I think you’re right about the top 4, including Corner in there as of right now. I’m not so sure James is a lock though. Like I said, I think it’ll come down to James and Ashton. What’s going to hurt both of them is if the Bills keep six WRs, as CB in his blog seems to think.

by krytime on Aug 6, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

How is it completely different? What has Copeland Bryan done to deserve reps over a guy who will undoubtedly have more impact than him this season? What has Corner done to unseat Youboty other than be a rookie?

by Brian Galliford on Aug 6, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it is different...

Allegedly, Ellis hasn’t done much at camp. The coaching staff even indicated he needed a “push” to get going. Maybe Copeland came in really trying to earn a job. Under this regime, I’m inclined to think that makes a difference.

The CB thing is the vice verse of that. In the previous example, it was a young vet taking snaps away from a rook. Here, it’s a rook taking away snaps from a young vet. Youboty has been given his chances; he just hasn’t run with them yet. Maybe Corner came into camp with a great attitude. Certainly, he’s done something to impress this coaching staff.

by krytime on Aug 6, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

When has Youboty been “given his chances”? He practically missed his rookie year. He got a chance last year, but got hurt, and Greer took the job from him. How is that Youboty not “running with” the chance? I think it’s Greer running with his more than anything. When Youboty last played a game, he had a pick and looked good defending Donovan McNabb throws. He’s a good football player. We don’t know anything about Reggie Corner yet.

We can believe what we want about Bryan/Ellis, but the point is, Bryan was taking second-team reps from the outset of camp simply because he’s a vet. You might be right about what’s transpired since, but there seems to be different philosophy between the two positions. That doesn’t make a ton of sense to me.

by Brian Galliford on Aug 6, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"there seems to be different philosophy between the two positions"

I’ll give you that. Here’s my beef with Youboty. I might be uniformed, or completely wrong, but I’ll give it a whirl. All off season you heard stories of Poz working out, or Edwards bulking up. You heard stuff about some of the team leaders being around OBD getting ready for the season. Yet, I never heard Youboty’s name mentioned once. For a guy who lost as much time as he did, shouldn’t he have been here making his presence known? He seemed to come into camp with a deer in the headlight look. Once they signed James and drafted 3 CBs, did he give up? As far as physical tools go – he should be this team’s starting CB opposite McGee. But it just seems like he doesn’t get it, much like Losman in a way.

by krytime on Aug 6, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Philosophies

I don’t really think there is a distinction in philosophies between positions. I really believe that who plays and who doesn’t is a true “meritocracy” with this staff. Jobs will be won and lost during the preseason games. My personal opinion is that Ashton will make the team and James has the greatest risk. I cannot see them keeping 6 CBs, particularly if they keep 5 safeties—which would include Wendling, Scott and Wilson.

Geronimo

by Geronimo on Aug 6, 2008 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've been wondering about that

Now with the injury to James, Corner’s rise to nickel back, and memories of Jason Webster from last year, I wonder if the Bills keep James around at the end of preseason. Can’t see more than 5 CB’s on the regular roster. Any others they want to keep will be stashed on the practice squad.

Get the Bills back to the big game!

by Blitz on Aug 6, 2008 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Philosophies

I think you’re right on the CB thing, especially if they keep the five safeties. I’m assuming then you think, as does CB, that they will keep 6 WRs?

I’m going to assume that no matter what and where they keep someone (WR or DB), it will depend on their ST ability. I see it coming down to Jenkins, Johnson, Youboty, and James for three spots.

by krytime on Aug 7, 2008 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're right

If the Bills plan on using 4 WR sets more this season, they will need a couple of extra bodies to sub in once in a while, so I can easily see 6 WR’s, especially if one of them is an impact ST’er.

They can get by with 5 CB’s. That still leaves them plenty of depth there.

Get the Bills back to the big game!

by Blitz on Aug 7, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

The team obviously saw something in Corner that “media” analysts didn’t, as most say Corner was selected to high. So maybe they saw something in him they thought they could utilize and are attempting to bring that to fruition?

McKelvin and Hardy - rookies of the year

by poz on Aug 6, 2008 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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