Buffalo Rumblings Community Needs List, Take Two
Over the past few weeks we here at Buffalo Rumblings have immersed ourselves in the grueling off-season process of figuring out exactly where and how the Buffalo Bills need to improve to make a playoff push in 2009. This effort, currently in its initial phase dubbed our State of the Roster series, will eventually culminate in the assembly of a prioritized Community Needs List, where every single need the Bills carry into the 2009 off-season will be made known to those who run the franchise. (At least, that would be awesome.) In case you missed it, we have already completed prioritization of Buffalo's needs offensively.
I'm the kind of guy that is obsessed with organization and being on the same page as everybody else. So unlike last year, when we ripped through our State of the Roster series and threw our Needs List together once those reviews were finished, this year we're going to keep our Needs List a work in progress as we work through the positional reviews. Thus, we'll begin prioritizing the work we've already done right now.
What follows are the needs we've already identified, the players we've identified as contract extension-worthy, and the players we'd like to see take a hike. If you don't agree with the names or positions on this list, don't feel bad (unless you aren't part of these discussions) - this is a majority opinion. We'll vote on the positions to get as many opinions in as possible, but the prioritization of extensions and expulsions will remain a discussion rather than a vote. So if you're of the mind that re-signing Keith Ellison is more critical to this team's success than releasing Chris Kelsay, vote in the poll and click on past the jump to read, digest and leave your thoughts on players themselves.
Extendables
SLB Keith Ellison - The consensus - and by consensus, I really mean "nobody has vehemently disagreed with me yet" - seems to be that Ellison is a valuable reserve to the Bills. Clearly, I agree. Ellison should never get near Buffalo's starting lineup unless there's some sort of grotesque injury involved, but having a guy like Ellison around is what makes good franchises great and bad ones mediocre.
Expendables
DE Chris Kelsay - To say "Bills fans have had enough of Kelsay" is an understatement. No one questions his drive or his leadership; his issue has everything to do with his far-below-pay-grade production. If Buffalo is serious about upgrading the defensive end position this off-season, they'll likely have to cut one or more of their current stock at the position. Kelsay should top that list.
DE Copeland Bryan - Reference everything I just said about Kelsay, minus pay grade.
DT John McCargo - Clearly, he's not going to get any better now that the coaching staff has made it awkwardly apparent that they're not as enamored with him as they were when they drafted him. The Bills could stand to add some beef inside. McCargo might get the boot to make that happen.
Other expendables: DT Corey Mace, LB Teddy Lehman, LB Blake Costanzo, LB Jon Corto, LB Marcus Buggs
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65 comments
Comments
I might want Kelsay cut more than I want Everette Brown or another pass rusher at #11. That’s how much I want that guy off this team!
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Jan 13, 2009 2:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Amen !
This Kelsay’s contract represents how bad are our front office. Who can give this guy this contract with this numbers ??
by hightower_mc on Jan 13, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He did have 6 sack the year before he signed that deal and it was said that he would get decent money in free agency if he went that far. The deal at the time was considered a bargin for the Bills.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
by sireric on Jan 13, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah man, maybe you are right. I want to see him out so bad that i didn’t remember one day he was a good prospect. I don’t think his contract for 6 sacks would be considered a bargain but I agree whith you he made a decent year before free agency
by hightower_mc on Jan 14, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nice pic!
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 14, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute
Who considered that a bargain?
I remember every Bills fan saying WTF! when they found out the terms of Kelsay’s contract. It was absolutely ridiculous then….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Jan 14, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
still pretty ridiculous.....
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 14, 2009 1:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remeber several guys like Len Pasqurelli, and John Clayton sayimg that Kelsay would strike it big in free agency, and the Bills were able to get him at a slightly reduced rate.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
by sireric on Jan 14, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t remember that at all. Plus, what do they know anyhow? Bills fans were all shocked at the deal, isn’t that enough?
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Jan 15, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this
is Defense only I take it?
Kurupt, Can Brown play LDE though? Or would he be rotatinoal with Schobel? Leaving Denny, Ellis and hopefully a veteran on the Left side?
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Jan 13, 2009 2:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That I do not know
Maybe we should wonder whether Schobel can play LE….Brown’s speed and pass rush ability belongs on a QB’s blind side. Schobel is doing nothing to scare anyone at RE any more….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Jan 13, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you're right
If you have the opportunity to get better at a position, you go for it. Even if it means moving guys around on the roster. Brown would be an upgrade. He’s a physical specimen, he’s quick, and he’s mean. Bring him in, and move Schobel to RDE.
I don’t think the Bills will cut Kelsay though. Like I said, I don’t think Jauron has the balls to do it.
by bruuuuce_02 on Jan 13, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Au contraire… he scares me with his lack of pass-rushing ability. He’s invaluable in run support though.
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 13, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i need
to look at rookie DE’s the last 5 years and see how teams have used them. Like how many snaps we would expect from a guy like Brown. I just hope they listen and have a 5 DE rotation. For depth, and if they all stay healthy its so much better if you have 5 guys with 2 that are specialists. I firmly believe it is the way to go.
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Jan 13, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I could live with Brown rotating in
As long as the rotation is Schobel, Denney, Brown, and somebody other than Kelsay.
Honestly, Kelsay needs to go, he costs to much for what he gives us, and he adds nothing to the team other than “leadership” which means he talks alot. If Kelsay was a real leader, he would have better stats since in the NFL you only get results as a “leader” if you prove it on the field.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
by WABillsfan on Jan 13, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it’s defense only, since we’ve already done the offense. We’ll get the two separate posts done, then incorporate them into one another.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 13, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Everette Brown is listed on the Seminoles web site as a Right DE. All the highlites i’ve watched on Youtube has him lining up at RDE.
everything goes better with a BIG MACK
by keuka121 on Jan 13, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
what I’m asking is how hard is that transition and what makes sense if we draft him. He obviously is super explosive at his RDE spot and that is also where that Aaron Schobel guy plays. I think having a young DE like Brown split snaps with Schobel and mix it up on the other side as well would be great. I think you take the BPA at a position and then have our mastermind coaches utilize them the best of their capabilities
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Jan 13, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm, careful on moving Brown to much
Remember the mess the Texans got into by trying that with Mario Williams? He only got better in his second season because they left him at RDE instead of moving him all over the field like they did the 1st season.
Schobel has lost some speed, and has improved as a run stopper, and that will be Brown’s biggest weakness, so why not move Schobel to LDE and let and Denney hold the line up there, and let Brown do his thing at RDE with Denney spelling him. I think thats the wisest course, especially if we WANT him to be a pass-rush demon only anyhow.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
by WABillsfan on Jan 13, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this poll is as unanimous as it gets….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Jan 13, 2009 3:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
We all know you’re giggling over your keyboard right now. :)
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 13, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More like a sigh of relief. No need to convince anyone this year!
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Jan 13, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Now with everybody conviced, you should evaluate all good pass rushes avaliable in FA and in Draft
by hightower_mc on Jan 13, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yea but the good FA’s that are available are probably going to be priced out of buffalo’s range
by ballinbills1315 on Jan 13, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
by WABillsfan on Jan 13, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it’s not just you and me towing the line alone.
As I’m writing this of the 269 votes, 245 are for a DE. :)
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
by sireric on Jan 13, 2009 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are fans smarter than the current front office?
If the Bills were to draft DEs with the same intensity that they do DBs, we’d all smile a little more.
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 13, 2009 3:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Defensive Needs
LDE – replace/new
DT – one monster new
RDE – draft/rotate
OLB – Move POZ
MLB – replace
SS – replace
FS – replace (whitner)
in my opinion – as far as our defensive needs, we need about half of the defensive roster replaced. good job OBD
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 13, 2009 3:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
How do you replace a #8 pick so soon? I’m not ready to give up on the guy. He did play hurt much of the season.
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 13, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
because i think he is overrated and sucks as a playmaker
in my list i had him as moving to FS
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 13, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he is still better then any potential free agent we would have the cap space to acquire or anyone that we would draft
by ballinbills1315 on Jan 13, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thats why i had him moving to FS.
regardless – overrated (not by buffalorumblings) and definately sucks as a playmaker.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 13, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You honestly don’t think that would change if the Bills had ANY semblance of a pass rush? Because I certainly do, and even if you have doubts, it’s pretty unfair to say he can’t be a good player with a little help.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 13, 2009 4:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
anyone can be a playmaker with help – how about being the playmaker and helping everyone else out
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 13, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So what you’re really saying when you say “he sucks as a playmaker” is “he’s not a guy that you can build a defense around”.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 13, 2009 4:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
when i say that – i mean – for his position – he doesn’t make game changing plays – forced fumbles, key tackles, interceptions
playmaker type things
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 13, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
forgot to add – at key moments.
he’s solid – i’ll give him that – nothing more though
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 13, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK… and what I said was that it’s unfair to pigeon-hole him as “not a playmaker” until he gets some pass rush help. Which you disagreed with. So you’re sending mixed signals here.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 14, 2009 6:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well Brian – i know what you said. but i disagree with that because look at Jim Leonard -if he can be a playmaker on a defense with all that help then of course Whitner can. i want him to be the playmaker and help everyone else out. make key stops, interceptions, forced fumbles.
i understand your point – but thats not what i want out of him – i want HIM to be the playmaker and help everyone else out.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 14, 2009 9:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So then you’re saying he’s not a guy that can carry a defense. There’s a distinction between “not being a defensive centerpiece” and “not being a playmaker” that you’re missing.
Jim Leonhard isn’t a defensive centerpiece by a long stretch, but he’s a playmaker. He makes plays because he’s got mega talent around him.
Donte Whitner isn’t a defensive centerpiece for all the reasons you mentioned. But he’d be a superstar if he had the likes of Lewis, Suggs and Ngata in front of him.
So saying he sucks as a playmaker isn’t true (yet). You’re right, though, in that he can’t be a guy that you build a defense around.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 14, 2009 9:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a distinction between "not being a defensive centerpiece" and "not being a playmaker" that you’re missing.
all i’m saying is the guy sucks at making critical, playmaker – plays. i dont’ care about anything else – dont’ care about circumstance – dont’ care about who he has around him – if he was a legit talent we would have seen something from him in the 3 years he has been here. everything you point out is true – but that is not my point. my point is he is out on the field, almost every game and i still am waiting for the playmaking ability. thats all Brian – nothing about being a centerpiece or any of that. simple football player making plays – and he sucks at that as far as a playmaker. we can what if everything to death – but i’m calling it as i see it.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 14, 2009 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, then wanting big plays and saying “he sucks at playmaking” is a distinction you’re missing. Everyone agrees that we need more out of Whitner, including me, but saying he sucks it taking it too far, IMO.
I’m not “what-if”-ing at all. I’m saying don’t say Whitner sucks until he doesn’t produce with actual talent around him.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 14, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Look at Ed Reed. Whitner will probably never be as good as Reed but do you ever see some of those picks Reed gets. He gets all of his int’s off of poorly thrown balls and mistimed passes becuase there is so much pressure on the qb. What Reed does after the int is the more impressive part because he could be a great punt returner, but a lot of the int’s that he gets are there because everyone else did an exceptional job on the play to force that poor throw. Whitner doesnt have that help so there is rarely a mistake to capitalize on.
by ballinbills1315 on Jan 14, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t like comparing Reed’s situation to Whitner’s simply because I don’t like comparing the players themselves.
Ed Reed, unlike Whitner, is a guy you can build a defense around. He’d make plays regardless of whether or not he had Baltimore’s pass rush or Buffalo’s. He’s ultra-talented. Whitner is not that player, and thus (theoretically) needs the type of production that Reed’s teammates provide. Reed certainly benefits from playing next to those big names in Baltimore, but he wouldn’t be scraping by with one pick a season if the circumstances were switched.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 14, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but he wouldn’t be scraping by with one pick a season if the circumstances were switched.
and thats all that i’m saying
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 14, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL but when I said that’s what you were saying, you disagreed with me! :)
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 14, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah i just went up and read what you wrote – i must have read it hastily.
man – this sure got small didn’t it?
good coorespondence
he still needs to make more plays
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 14, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I love it when the comment box is teeny.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 14, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whitner is definitely a BUST
I have read this thread throughout and for sure if Whitner played on a more aggressive team with a better pass rush his numbers would be better but that being said, his numbers are sooooo baaad that there is no way that anybody can ever justify having taken him #8 overall. He is an absolute bust. He’s had three full years and he has regressed in every one. That being said I would not cut him but I guarantee you that if his play doesn’t dramatically improve, he won’t be renewed in Buffalo. I can’t believe that Jauron & Levy “overrode” Modrak to get him over Ngata. He produces like a 3rd rounder about to be cut!
Ed Reed was drafted in the first round of 2002 at #24
First 3 years of production:
2002: 85 Tackles, 12 PDef, 1 Sack, 5 INT
2003: 71 Tackles, 16 PDef, 1 Sack, 7 INT
2004: 76 Tackles, 17 PDef, 2 Sack, 9 INT
Donte Whitner was drafted in the first round of 2006 at #8
First 3 years of production:
2006: 104 Tackles, 5 PDef, 0 Sacks, 1INT
2007: 89 Tackles, 1 PDef, 0 Sacks, 1 INT
2008: 61 Tackes, 1 PDef, 1 Sacks, 0 INT
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
by keysh67 on Jan 15, 2009 8:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One thing is crystal clear !
Whitner is not free safety material!!
Only 2 picks in 43 starts is horrible. There is no way that anybody can tell me that he’d be better at free safety than SS, After three full seasons he has a total of 2 INTs and only 7 Passes Defenced!!
I would much prefer to see our brain trust go get a real FS like Sean Jones or even take a chance on a guy like Atari Bigby who has shown glimpses and who clearly has fallen out of favor in GB. Bigby is currently 3rd on their depth chart and he was undrafted so I think there is a chance that he will only get the minimum tender. At that price he would definitely be worth bringing in. Sean Jones is a true ball hawk and more importantly he is proof that you can still be a playmaker even though you play on a team with a lousy pass rush! I’ll admit that the wimpy Tampax-2 doesn’t help either but in the end, there is absolutely nothing that justifies switching Whitner to FS a position that clearly requires ball hawking skills which he clearly does not have!
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
by keysh67 on Jan 15, 2009 9:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is no way that anybody can tell me that he’d be better at free safety than SS, After three full seasons he has a total of 2 INTs and only 7 Passes Defenced!!
At SS…
It’s one thing to say you’re not convinced that he can play free safety. It’s another to say that “it’s crystal clear Whitner is not free safety material”.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 16, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like you’ve mentionned this is a blog right? So in my humbled opinion, this guy is not FS material. He is too slow and looks dazed. He is a decent SS and could probably be a pretty good one if they’d leave him in that position and find a real FS in Free Agency, maybe a guy like Sean Jones
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
by keysh67 on Jan 17, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not disagreeing with your opinion that Whitner can’t play FS – you’re entitled to it. I’m just saying that to say “it’s crystal clear” is you stating fact, when it’s anything but.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 20, 2009 8:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How did Center fall off the map?
Everytime we have heated discussions, there are practically as many people that think that Center is more pressing than DE and now it’s not even on the list? How does this list represent a a majority opinion?
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
by keysh67 on Jan 13, 2009 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
whispers – this is a defensive post keysh
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 13, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 13, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I shouldn't take a peak when I don't have enough time...
My bad! Between two conference calls I took a quick peak and the title was not very specific and I sorta skipped through the first paragraph quickly, again my bad!
I definitely thing that given our wimpy 4-3 Tampa 2 system, we need to find a way to increase pressure on opposing QBs so the only options are a good DE or a game-changing Big DT that could enable Stroud to be more of a pass rusher. Especially if we get a FA like Suggs or even Berry.
I’d like to us drafting at least 1 if not two late round linebackers.
Mack, Hardy, Coffman/Beckum, Terrance Taylor, LB, S
Mack, Coffman, Shaughnessy, Terrance Taylor, LB, S
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
by keysh67 on Jan 13, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
keysh – FYI – i didn’t mean to put the ‘whispers’ in bold – stupid quotes around a word makes it bold
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 14, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No offense taken!
Can you tell that I want a stud center in the draft?
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
by keysh67 on Jan 14, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL – hey I want one too. second round pick better be a center IMO. We NEED a good center and your right on the $$ there.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 14, 2009 9:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
speaking of whispers
why does every character in 24 have to whisper? Its hilarious. They all talk like Nicolas Cage
MARVelous
by MARVelous on Jan 13, 2009 3:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I can't hear you.
everything goes better with a BIG MACK
by keuka121 on Jan 13, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do they also very obvious hair plugs as well?
If so I might watch for the comedy factor then!
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
by WABillsfan on Jan 13, 2009 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously DE is the fans choice...
But I am assuming we sign a Backer in F/A because that’s generally where the Bills spend money there…. Fltcher, Spikes, Mitchell, etc.
Playing Devil's Advocate at Buffalo Rumblings since 2007.
Eternal optimist.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 13, 2009 8:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good call.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
by sireric on Jan 13, 2009 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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