Draft Evaluations of the Buffalo Bills' front office
by Ron From NM on Jan 17, 2009 6:49 PM EST
in Buffalo Bills Opinion
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PrintWe've seen quite a few FanPosts and stories recently that have, in some way, related to the central topic of accurate assessments of players in the draft by the Buffalo Bills organization. We've hashed and rehashed the DE vs C at #11 debate. Some have suggested that this guy or that guy are 'can't miss' prospects. That raises the question of how this incarnation of the Bills' front office has done with recognizing future quality players. The Pro Bowlers Buffalo could have had are indicated with an asterisk.
So as not to clutter the front page, take the jump and check out the 2006 draft, now that those players have had the requisite 3 years to prove themselves...
2006 draft
#8 Whitner--on the board: DT Ngata, DT Bunkley, DB Cromartie*, DE Hali, G Joseph* (S Allen was taken at #16 but hasn't been a world beater, neither have other safeties taken in later rounds)
#26 McCargo--on the board: C Mangold*, DE Kiwanuka, LB Ryans*, OT McNeil'* (DT Wroten was taken early in the 3rd, kind of suggesting that no team thought any DTs were worth taking after McCargo)
#70 Youboty--on the board: G Jean-Gilles (CB Pittman only CB taken before Buffalo picked in the 4th)
#105 Simpson--on the board: WR Marshall*, G Colon (S Salley only other S taken before 5th round)
#134 Williams--on the board: no one in particular
#143 Butler--on the board: no one in particular
#178 Ellison--on the board: DB Bethea*, DB Finnegan*
#216 Pennington--on the board: no one in particular
#248 Merz--on the board: WR Colston
None of the safeties taken after Whitner have really covered themselves with glory we can, at this point, say that Buffalo probably got the best safety on the boad....but has he really been better than, say, Dawan Landry of the Ravens? I'd suggest not. After 3 full years I'm quite comfortable with saying the Bills really reached for a safety and missed on the #8 pick in the draft.
This pick doesn't speak well of Buffalo's talent evaluation. The McCargo pick was an obvious flop. Ironically, the only DT taken after McCargo to really make any sort of impact at all was.....drum roll....Kyle Williams.
Youboty finally had the light go on and started to contribute before his season was cut short by injury. It took him quite a while to get going, something that downgrades this pick.
Simpson didn't have a bad first year and then missed most of the 2nd. He rarely saw the field in his third, bringing this pick into question.
Williams was the best DT left on the board, by far. He beat out McCargo in spite of the fact that McCargo had been drafted 4 rounds ahead of him. He's no world beater but he's a steady rotational guy who gets more respect from opposing offensive linemen than many fans.
I've said for quite a while that Butler was a real steal in the 5th. He missed one year to injury and some games in each of the past two years. With that said, he stabalized the RG position and has often outplayed Dock.
Ellison was followed by only 4 more LBs, none of whom you've ever heard of. While I don't see him as a starter he has at the very least contributed on special teams and filled in far too much on the defense.
With better draft evaluations, Buffalo's draft could have been: DT Ngata/Bunkley (Bunkley was allegedly a 'better' Tampa 2 fit), C Mangold, CB Youboty, S Landry, DT Williams, OT Butler, LB Ellison with the rest being scrubs. Yeah, that did hurt to type.
On the plus side, the case can be made that Buffalo got the top safety on the board in Whitner--just not by enough to justify his selection. Youboty was a solid pick, with only two late round players developing into significantly better players. Williams was, in retrospect, the 3rd best DT in the 2006 draft class. Butler has been an above average guard and Ellison has returned well for the modest investment in him.
So, how does any of this related to the 2009 draft? Buffalo has reached for positions of need, even when it wasn't necessary. Buffalo has also demonstrated a tendency to flaunt conventional wisdom--taking a CB at #11 when there were seemingly more pressing needs. For a guy who wants to see the C position really addressed (like me), this would seem to make it somewhat more likely that the Bills will take a C at #11 if that player is graded higher than the other C prospects. The problem is that, as with Whitner and McCargo, this version of OBD hasn't demonstrated the ability to grade players accurately. Even worse for Bills fans is that there really haven't been a lot of indicators to suggest that Buffalo would pick the best available DE at #11.
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LOL im the only one who has faith in our talent evaluation.....
They dont hit on every picks….but no team does….I think they do just as good as any other team however when it comes to coaching up these talents….thats where this team fails……
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 17, 2009 7:00 PM EST reply actions
I think ROn's argument menas they can evaluate talent....
but it takes a guy like MOdrak who only got a say in the later rounds on Ellison , Butler, and Williams….
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 17, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
That's more credit than I'm due
I didn’t know that Modrak had a greater voice in the later rounds. If that is indeed true and it’s also true that Modrak will have more input in the earlier rounds now then maybe it’s not as grim as I thought.
by Ron From NM on Jan 17, 2009 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
don’t you think Modrak is just going through the motions just to collect a check? How much do you think he cares about the Bills when he chooses to live and office in Jacksonville.
So because Ralph Wilson has a house in Detroit he supports the Lions?
If I could afford it I’d have a house in Napa California but still be tied to Western NY.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 18, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
You can't use the last eight because it was a bunch of different guys doing the evaluating....
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 18, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
The Bills front office can't seem
to match BPA, need, and talent left on the board. We needed a safety and a DT. They picked Whitner over Ngata. I really don’t care that Whitner was the best safety. The best looking ugly step sister is still ugly.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
I think part of it had to do with the Bills wanted a smaller quicker DT....and that wasnt Ngata....
only after they realized that you cant succeed with smaller DT’s did they try to change it…Im not nearly as upset with the pick of whitner now as I was when it happened…..I kinda understand what they were going for……its just a shame they cant coach em up
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 17, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Here is an intesting poll question
Which would be a bigger reach?
Whitner at #8
or
Mack at #11
My vote would be Whitner.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
thats not a very fair question though.......
because most “draft experts” would still say taking a center at 11 is not as smart as taking a FS/SS at 8……..
and since we know about whitner the pro and we dont know about Mack the pro……its just not a very good question.
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 17, 2009 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
You are right,
in that the question can’t be answered definitively right now. I would argue Center is a greater position of need this year than safety was when we drafted Whitner. I would also argue that Mack going to be a better player Center than Whitner will ever be at safety.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
well for that 2006 team everything was pretty much a need...
and I do believe that Mack will be a very “soild” pro…….and he’s an obvious upgrade to Preston/Fowler……
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 17, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
Dikembe Mutombo would be an upgrade to the center position.
by twoeightnine on Jan 17, 2009 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
plus it would be cool to watch him wag his finger every time Trent dropped back to pass
and the NT couldnt get by him…….
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 17, 2009 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
I would argue Center is a greater position of need this year than safety was when we drafted Whitner
Coy Wire was the only strong safety on the roster and Troy Vincent was the only FS on the roster. Safety was every bit as big of a need as center is now.
Exactly. We had THE COY WIRE.
What else do you need?
by twoeightnine on Jan 17, 2009 8:41 PM EST up reply actions
Millions?
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
Teams are built from the lines outwards
Pure and simple. Without good lines, nothing else works. If the piece missing to your puzzle is within your grasp, you take it. Many great Centers have been taken in the first round. Granted it’s normally much better teams that are drafting them (because they understand the importance of a great center) and good teams normally draft in the latter parts of the first round but nonetheless, many great centers have been drafted in the first round. If we wait until the 2nd round he’ll be gone, Pittsburgh will grab him for sure.
We’ve been ditching Whitner for the past week and the main argument is that we put no pressure on opposing QBs which renders him pretty useless, which is why we should have drafted Ngata in 2006 and once our D-Line was up and running then we could have built the backend. The same goes for the Oline, we NEED to fix that middle and get the best available run-blocking monster we can. We have a purebred in the backfield that is being wasted because our middle is so weak. Getting the line up& running will take so much pressure off of Edwards that he will be able to develop into the franchise QB we know he can be. A strong power run game will also make all our receivers that much better as well because teams will not loinger be able to stop our run game with only 3-4 defenders they will need to commit 7-8 defenders which opens things up tremendously for the receivers. Was hardy that bad? or was it a result of 7-8 men in coverage all the time? Give Hardy more 1:1 matchups and I am certain that things would be completely different.
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
Without good lines, nothing else works. If the piece missing to your puzzle is within your grasp, you take it
What’s better the Bills rushing offense or the Bills pass rush on defense? The missing piece is a defensive end who can disrupt an offense.
Many great Centers have been taken in the first round
Who? Nick Mangold had a great season. Damian Woody is a great RT. Jeff Faine isn’t great. Chris Spencer is far from great. Steve Everitt was never a great player. Bern Brostek never made a Pro Bowl and isn’t someone I would have considered a great player. Brian Williams had a pretty good career. Was he great? Maybe, maybe not. Trevor Matich couldn’t hold down a job as a starter. Dave Rimmington, the greatest college center ever, had a pretty average pro career. That is every first round center taken since 1980. Hardly a list of great players.
Pittsburgh will grab him for sure
Pittsburg has an awful offensive line. The days of Bill Cowher making sure that the OL is a strength are gone. Almost every one of Pittsburg’s offenisve lineman is a free agent except for Jeff Hartings, the center. I doubt Pittsburg takes Mack unless they do a lot of work in free agency. I think Arizona is the most likely first round destination for Mack. Cincinatti in the second round is another likely possibility.
main argument is that we put no pressure on opposing QBs which renders him pretty useless, which is why we should have drafted Ngata in 2006
Ngata couldn’t solve a DII college team’s pass rush. He is purely a run stuffer. I wish we had him shutting down opponents run game right now though.
Was Hardy that bad?
Yes.
Buddy, no use getting into yet another pissing contest with you. The title of my post is that good teams build from the lines outwards. You certainly cannot disagree with that I hope? I surely don’t disagree that we need help at DE, that’s part of the line last time I checked.
Ngata would have made our DE’s better.
As for the DE vs C argument, well I know your position and you know mine – so lets just leave it at that.
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
Ngata would have made our DE’s better.
I don’t believe that. Many here, with Brian leading the way, said Stroud would come in and really help our DE’s this year. I said he wouldn’t. A good DT should help in run situations, but Iam not one to believe that that player can help the DE’s and their pass rush.
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
When it takes two linemen to block him
There are less double teams out on the edges
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
No, but I have seen a DE twist inside and shoot the gap
created by the DT taking on the double team.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
How about this
The guard and tackle double the DT, but the LT is forced to block a CB blitz (you know…. a block like Peters missed in the Jets game). The LT expects help from the guard, but the guard is helping the center with the DT, which allows the DE a free run at the QB.
HaaaHaaaa. Try understanding that after a few beers!!!!!
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
That's the blitzer causing problems though!
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Wasn’t Stroud doubled a lot this year? I didn’t see any help for the DE’s, though they probably couldn’t do anything with a little help anyhow….
And I agree w/Kaiser, how often do you see a Guard help out a Tackle?
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Remember
Stroud was a force earlier, until he got hurt. He was never the same after that.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
Sure, but that isn’t the point. DTs don’t change the duties of DEs on pass rushing downs. DEs take on tackles one on one and that is what makes the position so important. A DT doesn’t help a DE on pass downs ever.
I disagree
When the DT can collapse the pocket and the QB cannot step into anything, the DE has a much easier job
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
Well that’s different than simply drawing double teams…
Plus back to Ngata, he’s not one to collapse the pocket in passing situations….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Did you watch the game tonight? He got in the backfield many times and even got a sack!
Just checked his stats on the year:
55 Tackles, 5PDef, 2INT, 1Sack
I can’t believe this guy has 2 INTs on the year and he got one in 2006 too. For a guy his size, he sure is athletic.
It’s pittyful that the ball hawking Safety that we picked ahead of him (Whitner) had no INTs this year!
61 Tackles, 1Pdef, 0 INT, 1 Sack
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
I agree that it was an awful mistake that we didn’t draft Ngata, but that one sack should show you how much of an impact his “pocket collapsing” abilites actually have on opposing offenses.
R-U implying that all other times he just sits in the hole and waits? C’mon he clearly pushes the line forward on most every play, it might not show up as a sack but opposing QBs still don’t have that nice pocket to step into. Clearly a dominating DT like Ngata, helps the pass-rushing ends!
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
Man, this is your favorite topic, isn’t it? I get what you’re saying – most of us agree – but history is history.
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on Jan 19, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
Buddy I’ve had indigestion ever since the day they drafted Whitner over Ngata! So yes, I guess this is a hot topic of mine. I was glad to hear you say that Modrak wanted Ngata because it at least gave me hope for this year!
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
Almost every one of Pittsburg’s offenisve lineman is a free agent except for Jeff Hartings, the center.
Hartings is retired, Justin Hartwig is their starter. And the Steelers have proven to take the best player available. They took Mendenhall despite getting a great year from Parker the year before. I don’t think Mack would get past them.
by PozDispenser on Jan 18, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
haha, I knew it sounded funny when I typed it. Thanks for the correction. I still think that unless Pitt does some solid FA work than center will be less of a need than guard and tackle. If you gave me decent odds, I would bet the house that Pittsburg passes on Mack. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.
If we could read a crystal ball
And know with certainty that Mack would still be there at #40 then fine. But given that we don’t have that ability, I’d prefer to see them grab him in round 1. Mack is exactly what we need and I would not be willing to chance it.
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
I really doubt Mack is there at 43 or wherever Buffalo drafts in the second round. I also really doubt that Pittsburg takes him in round 1. That is all I am saying. I think Arizona is a likely destination for him in round 1. I think St. Loius and Cincinatti are very likely round 2 destinations. I guess your right though in that it doesn’t matter who takes him because the point is that he won’t be there when the Bills pick.
I put a post up on an earlier thread re: Centers and draft positions
Of the 51on active rosters in the NFL, 14 were undrafed, and only 2 were drafted in the first round, Mangold and Faine, who isn’t playing for the team who drafted him. IIRC, 9 were drafted in the second round, then 5-6 each in the middle rounds 3-6.
Point being, in the current NFL, very rarely is a Center drafted in the first round. Maybe the 2nd, but not the first. And you’re equally, if not slighly more likely to see an undrafted free agent on the roster as well.
Yes, the O and D lines are important, but not at the risk of passing on a LB, DE, or other impact player who can MAKE PLAYS on the defensive side of the ball. That to me is more urgent of a need than using a first round pick on a center.
I disagree buddy!
This is what a monster center looks like! Just imagine what Lynch & Jackson could do behind this monster!
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
Didn’t I read before that Modrak wanted Ngata but got overruled?
everything goes better with a BIG MACK
That has been brought up several times, including by Brian
Now that DJ’s hold on final choice looks to have been broken by Modrak coming into the circle of jerks, I think we might see more sane picks. Whitner was a complete DJ style pick, ala McKelvin.
Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?
Whitner was actually a Marv Levy pick. I don’t think DJ had all that much influence on anything that happened during his first offseason with the team. I’m sure his opinions were a factor, but I think Marv and John Guy both had much more say than DJ at the time.
It was Marv's descision as GM then....
Good point kaiser
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 17, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
John Guy is Pro Personel
He is not involved in the draft, how could it have been him and Marv? No wonder we suck!! I would hope that the GM would take his main advice from his chief scout (ie Modrak)
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
We could have gone Ngata at #8 and then Danieal Manning with the 2nd round pick we traded to Chicago. Manning is no world beater, but he’s no worse than Whitner, and has probably been better. We’d have still had another 3rd round pick that year, not that we’d have picked a great player. That scenario is pretty much example A for why I hate trading picks to move up in the draft….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
I’m never a big fan of woulda, shoulda, coulda. It’s easy to look back and say we should have taken this guy in the first and that guy in the second. But if you take the guy in the first that changes what every one of the teams after that would do also. How do we know that if the Bills change their pick to Nagta or Bunkley that Mangold would still be there for them to pick next?
This draft was actually pretty good in the bottom half. the misses were at the top. Youboty, Simpson, Williams, Butler, and Ellison were all O.K.-to-very good picks. Williams probably being the best, and Simpson being the worst but still not terrible for a 4th rounder. I would actually like to look at this draft as compared to everyone elses.
- Williams and Butler both just signed extensions and are solid starters.
- Ellison is good back and nice special teams player with some starting experience.
- Youboty finally came into his own and looks like a real player. If he can stay healthy he can be a force.
- Whitner and Simpson. Say what you want about them but they both have been starters since their rookie year and both have room to grow.
- Merz is still waiting for his PR man Krytime to put down the beer and help him find a job.
I think overall I would give this draft a B+.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
Exactly.
I don’t want to play that game either cause every team would like to go back and pluck the Pro Bowlers they could have had. That doesn’t mean they would have been successful here and it doesn’t mean we made bad decisions.
The Bills drafted well that year but there was room for improvement.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 17, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
It not a question of coulda shoulda woulda...
….so much as one of player evaluation. Most draftniks were high on Ngata and Bunkley and both were there when Buffalo picked Whitner. Ngata and Bunkley have both developed into good DTs while Whitner is about as known outside of Buffalo as Allen (Miami) is known outside of Miami. OBD screwed up and we’ll see if they do better this time around.
by Ron From NM on Jan 17, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
My pont is that 1 or 2 picks doesn’t make the draft. Whitner is still a question and McCargo is a bust but that doesn’t mean that the draft was bad.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
1 or 2 picks do make a draft when they are essentially 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks (thanks to trading up).
by Ron From NM on Jan 17, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Are you kidding
The top of the draft is were your impact players are supposed to come from. The rest is gravy. Just because you hit on a few players in the lower rounds does NOT mean it is OK to screw up on your first and second picks.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
You took the words right out of my mouth!
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
Whitner has been a starter since he’s been here. Thats not a screw up.
Whitner – starter
Simpson – 20+ starts
Butler – starter
Williams – starter
Ellison – starter
5 starters out of 8 picks = pretty good to me. Even with the two wasted picks on McCargo.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
So if you are a starter for the Bills it means what?????
Fowler, Preston, J.P., Royal, etc. were starters for the Bills.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
Could the Bills draft have been better? Yes. I’m just saying that Whitner still has some potential (given a better front 7 that can get after the QB) and with the other hits that they got in the later rounds make this a good draft regardless of McCargo.
You can’t kill them for not taking Ngata and then give them no credit for finding Williams, Butler and Ellison.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
You can’t kill them for not taking Ngata and then give them no credit for finding Williams, Butler and Ellison.
Sure I can. Besides, who says they get no credit? The point was you need impact players with your first pick for sure and hopefully with your second, not just good enough to be starters. How many of your “nice” late rounders are going to make it to the Pro Bowl?
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
I agree with Eric that you can’t, but if you want to say that the Whitner and/or McCargo mistake(s) far outwieghs the great selections of Butler and Williams, then I totally agree.
Sure you can, you can argue anything, I should have said that if you are being fair and not just a pessimistic negative nancy you should give the Bills credit for the later round finds.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
How many of your "nice" late rounders are going to make it to the Pro Bowl?
So only guys who have been 1st or 2nd rounders have ever made the pro-bowl?
Jason Peters and undrafted free agent made it this year.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
if you were betting the house
would you bet on your day one or day two picks making the Pro Bowl? You have to play the odds my friend.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
You can’t kill them for not taking Ngata and then give them no credit for finding Williams, Butler and Ellison.
Why not? The first part isn’t related to the second part.
I think they did a good job finding Butler and Williams, but passing on Ngata for Whitner was a major error.
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
I think their point had to do with the FOs ability to evaluate talent
I just disagree that finding some gems in later rounds makes up for the early round screw ups.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
Exactly
some late rounders that become starters don’t fix the problem of missing out on potential studs early on….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
How many teams get good starters out of two 5th rounders and one 6th?
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
That’s not the point….at least my point. Missing on 2 first round picks hurts more than 2 5th round starters helps, IMO.
I can’t believe you just said Ellison was a good starter. I’ve gotta take a shower to get the filth out of my eyes!!!!!
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
A guy who is a 4th or 5th rounder coming in and starting right away is impressive. Just because they have duds at other spots means nothing in this context.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
Exactly!
We are so bad that guys like Royal, Ellison, & fowler are the best we can put on the field!
I think our coaching staff is really weak at coaching players up and evaluating talent during the season. Funny how Crowell hit the IR list so fast, I heard Brian talking about Jauron not liking him because he commits errors, yet his stats are pretty dam good. You would think that our coaching staff could fix the issues that are anoying them instead of just writting him off and putting him on IR so fast? Another example of how bad our coaching staff is Jim Leonard, man he has become a playmaker in Baltimore. Funny how he never fielded punts for us? I realize that the Baltimore Defense Line is much better than ours so it makes him look better – funny how we had a chance to draft that guy called Ngata, the guy that shores up their D-Line!
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
They also have Suggs, and some guy named Ray Lewis.
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
haha Ray Lewis
King of the late pile jump! My friends and I had a good laugh about him today…
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Does anyone know where someone could get a dvd of all league games shot from a field camera? I want to see the whole field.
I read somewhere that the Tampa 2 is vulnerable to the quick slant. I wonder if anyone else can verify this. Thinking about just that, it occurs to me that you could, with time, rate the success of every run and pass against any defense. Whoever said that I think is right but I’d like to prove it with tape. Just like Ron does you could look at tape and grade each kind of play say against a 3-4. Do they do that? Probably focus on the individual team next week. I like that play and we do not emphasize it enough. It seems to me, without grading tape, that Welker kills us with that play. However, we will not have a successful pass game until they respect the run up the middle.
everything goes better with a BIG MACK
The Tampa Two is designed to not give up the big play so the corners and safeties are a little furhter back.
The backers drop into the middle of the zone, covering the middle of the field, or blitz. The reason Poz has no sacks is he drops back instead of blitzing.
The slants are designed to take advantage of the off-playing corners. They are quick timing throws and with nobody at the line to jam them or knock them the timing works well with guys like Brady and Welker.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 18, 2009 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
This is what has been confusing me. I thought in the Tampa 2, the corners played up on the the WRs and chucked them to prevent a clean release before dropping into their flat zones. Then if no receiver attacked their zone, they would backpedal to close the gap between themselves and the deep zone. Thats why you attack it two levels towards the sidelines and put that corner into a bind. I actually wonder if we don’t play more Cover 3 than Cover 2.
by PozDispenser on Jan 18, 2009 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
The easy answer is despite the Tampon 2 jokes, Buffalo doesn’t run a Tampa 2. They blitz as much as your average team does and their CBs are expected to cover a lot of ground in their zones. The Bills typically stick to a base two deep zone, but they have their CBs play man sometimes and run a lot of cover 1 and cover 3 as well.
In a base cover two,
the corners have the flats while the safeties have over the top.
The Tampa 2 the safeties have deep half and the corners have like 15 yards off the ball and up towards the line. They are playing off the receivers because they don’t trust the over the top help. The slants are easier cause we don’t get a jam…
Whatever defense we play if nobody jams the receivers off the ball you are going to see the quick hitters like slants and bubble screens get yardage.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 18, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Kind of. I think every 4-3 defense is vulnerable to slants. It isn’t just Buffalo who plays their corners off the line. Watch the rest of the Philly game and pay attention to where they line their cornerbacks up. They are 8 yards off the line almost as often as Buffalo’s.
The reason Poz has no sacks is he drops back instead of blitzing.
Poz blitzes a lot. The reason he doesn’t have sacks is because he stinks at blitzing.
He is playing centerfield on most passing downs....
He does blitz but he is in coverage more often than not.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 18, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Mostly off-topic
but where’s the criticism or the Marv regime after all the crappola that Donahoe has taken, from me included? This is a good start to that comparison I think.
Donahoe had his major faults, mainly Mike Williams, Pat Williams, a revolving crapfest at OL, JP Losman and the 2005 draft, but he also brought a lot of Pro Bowl level talent to Buffalo. We haven’t had a player make the Pro Bowl after being added by the Marv/Jauron regime in 3 years. In Donahoe’s 5 years, he brought in the following players who would go on to earn a Pro Bowl berth, either in Buffalo or elsewhere:
Nate Clements
Aaron Schobel
Travis Henry
Larry Centers
Brian Moorman
Drew Bledsoe
Takeo Spikes
Sam Adams
Terrence McGee
Jason Peters
Willis McGahee
Mike Schneck (haha)
Sure, most were 1 or 2 year wonders, or aging vets, but at least they produced at a high level during their time here, for the most part. Other than maybe Lynch and hopefully McKelvin someday, have we added any top level talents these last 3 years???
Finding those top guys has been killing this current regime. It’s too bad we couldn’t combine that from Donahoe’s time with this regime’s desire to improve the OL and get some players in the 4th rounds and beyond….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Lynch and Mckelvin, the last two number 1 picks............
look so far to be fantastic picks and top guys…..everyone keeps baging on the whitner pick…but then no one gives credit for getting these two gems….why is that?
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 18, 2009 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
Because they were "no brainers", not undiscovered diamonds in the rough.
After A.P., Lynch was easily the next best back on the board. Same with Leo, he was the CB that was most NFL ready with the least chance of being a bust.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
there is no way you could have known this before the draft......hindsight is always 20/20
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 18, 2009 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
Which cave have you been in the last few years? Generally the top 2 guys at each position are pretty well set in stone and when all the scouting experts agree with the batting order it normally is quite accurate. McKelvin was the un-contested top rated CB last year and Lynch was definitely the #2 back on everyone’s board. Both were “no-brainers”!
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
Mike Williams was considered a "no brainer" too........
So was Ki-jana Carter………..Ryan Leaf, Rick Mirer…..
what kinda cave have you been living in?
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 18, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry for my tone Norcal!
And I am not trying to take credit away from OBD for selecting Lynch or McKelvin.
I for one expect a good FO to be batting very close to 1000 with the top 2 picks year in and year out. I agree with you that there are some exceptions where guys are the sure bet top rated guy and turns out to be a dud but they are rare and I would not blame the FO for it.
Again sorry for the tone, I got carried away in the moment!
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!
Section 336 Row 13
its all good my man.........
Your passion is appreciated….its always nice to know there are fans who care about the success of the team as much as I do…..I’ve gotten carried away from time to time…so no worries here.
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 18, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Keysh....
Do some research and go back a few years and take a look at every team’s first two picks and see what they are doing…. Good idea for a fanpost
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 18, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
Batting 1.000? Just using the 2006 draft we are talking about in this thread, Tenneessee drafted Vince Young third overall. Talk about a major miss. The Jets are a decent FO, and D. Ferguson hasn’t lived up to his top 5 status. Bill Parcells drafted Bobby Carpenter and Anthony Fasano with his first two picks. Bill Belichick took Laurence Maroney. The great hoodie drafted a first round bust at a position where players rarely bust. Then NE went on to pick Chad Jackson, who has been bust city too. Kelly Jennings has been a pretty big dissapointment in Seattle and a lot of people think they will draft a CB this year because of the terrible season he just had. Philly traded up to take the sliding Winston Justice and he has been dreadful in the limited playing time he has gotten. The Giants drafted a bust in Sinorice Moss. LenDale White has been pretty mediocre. If you expect your team to hit with their first two picks every year, prepare to be dissapointed.
Thanks kaiser...
I wanted someone else to do the research but I knew no team was batting 1.000
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 18, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions
You will always have the exception to the rule and some positions are harder than others
QBs are the toughest to figure. It is very hard to know which ones will be great. Tebow is a perfect example. He may be the greatest college QB ever, but will make it as an NFL QB? If you ever get that one figured out you can make a lot of money. IMO, CBs and RBs are among the easiest to evaluate and therefore the safest players to take in round one, which is probably why Jauron likes to take them.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"
LB's too
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 18, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
I thought I did just give them credit???...
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
well you did there......but I was re-enforcing that point..because I believe it was lost in all that other stuff....
and everything else I’ve seen around here lately….
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 18, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
Because it was a huge gaffe that we are still paying for
DT was a glaring need in 2006!
I will repeat myself at the risk of sounding like a broken record.. Good teams are built from the Lines outwards, period.
It serves no purpose of having great offensive players or defensive backfield players if you cannot control the tempo of the game at the LOS. Getting pressure with your front seven is what helps make great DBs and if you take a great DB and put him behind a bad Defensive line, he will be useless. And the same argument stands for the Oline. So instead we pick backfield guys and DBs and wonder why we are always 7-9
Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13
DT was a glaring need
and they took a first round defensive tackle to address the need. He was rated high on a lot of boards but McCargo has crapped out.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 18, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Accurate talent evaluation isn't only about the players that you select.
When I heard that the decision-makers at OBD liked Paul Posluszny more than Patrick Willis, I didn’t understand it then, and I don’t understand it now.
Check out what the front office had to say after they selected Donte Whitner:
http://play.rbn.com/?url=nfl/nfl/open/bills/demand/05billsvision/042906firstrd.rm
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
I don’t believe their Poz over Willis comments. What were they going to say? That they wish they had Willis, but are ok getting Poz as a consolation prize?
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
People like to know the truth.
By the way, since you love Donte Whitner, I thought you might enjoy re-living the moment:
http://play.rbn.com/?url=nfl/nfl/open/bills/demand/05billsvision/042906firstrd.rm
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Excellent Post!
I cannot agree more with New Mexico man. I remember when Polian was the G.M. and how we drafted Pro Bowlers and didn’t have as many busts as we have over the past ten years. Even A.J. Smith drafted Shawn Merriman and got havoc for drafting L.T. over Michael Vick. Steve Tasker wrote the other day that the Bills need to draft more offensive and defensive linemen!!!! He said the Bills have no great players on their team, only good one’s.
If coaching wins, then why did Tomlin and the coach for Arizona take their team to the Super Bowl in two years. Can you say Bill Cowher never did that. Fact of the matter is that the Steelers have drafted studs, and only have two free agents starting.
Look at all of the playoff teams and they have teams built through the drafts!!!!
I believe a lot of people in Buffalo believe the hype and think this team is better than they are. Well, it has been 9 years since making the playoffs and they didn’t beat a single team with a winning record. Just wait until next season, that will truly expose how bad the Bills talent level is when they face a very tough schedule.
I am glad that someone posts critical statements about how poor their drafting ability is. I cannot believe how average this team is and some think otherwise. Well, next year we will truly see. That is what debate is about!
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