Measuring Donte Whitner's minimal impact
by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 1:00 PM EST
in Buffalo Bills Opinion
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This past Monday, we took a look back at quarterbacks drafted over the past decade (1999-2008) in an effort to measure the value and possible potential of QB Trent Edwards. The verdict? Great value with room for improvement. It was an interesting exercise that highlighted just how many bad picks there have been at the quarterback position over the past ten years - and Edwards wasn't one of them.
Once that project was put together, I said "Hey, Brian, wouldn't it be interesting to compare Donte Whitner's performance to other first-round safeties over the past decade? It sure would, Brian. Shall we do it? Let's!" (At this point, I got scared, because I'd now joined Will Leitch and Mike Florio in the group of folks who refer to themselves in the multiple persons. But then, I was talking to myself, so maybe it works. At any rate, that's an elite group that I want no part of.)
So I ran the numbers. Let's just say that upon completion, that "interesting" term that ran through my head was replaced with more varied terms along the lines of "awful", "damning" and "unsurprising". How bland has Donte Whitner's play been? The numbers speak for themselves.
First thing's first
This post is not meant to be another launching point for the "Why didn't we draft Haloti Ngata in 2006?!" brigade, though it undoubtedly will be added to the already impressive stash of ammo the masses have been firing with for three years. Hindsight is 20/20 when it comes to the NFL Draft. As you'll see momentarily, there have been some elite and ridiculously productive safeties to come out of the draft in the past decade alone - so drafting a safety early in the draft isn't as dumb a move as many make it seem. But those same numbers, as I said, are damning when it comes to Whitner's production. It's production that I'm concerned with, not "coulda woulda shoulda", and I'll let the numbers prove Whitner's alarming lack of production.
Safeties trendy in recent years
It's important to note that this type of study is skewed, because for the longest time, safeties weren't regarded as first-round prospects - much like centers generally aren't these days. Over the past ten drafts, only 16 safeties have been taken in the first round. Half of those have been in the past three years alone.
Here's the list of 16 safeties drafted in the first round since 1999, with team drafting and overall selection noted as well:
2000: Rashard Anderson, CAR (23)
2001: Adam Archuleta, STL (20); Derrick Gibson, OAK (28)
2002: Roy L. Williams, DAL (8); Ed Reed, BAL (24)
2003: Troy Polamalu, PIT (16)
2004: Sean Taylor, WAS (5)
2005: no safeties drafted in Round 1
2006: Michael Huff, OAK (7); Donte Whitner, BUF (8); Jason Allen, MIA (16)
2007: LaRon Landry, WAS (6); Michael Griffin, TEN (19); Reggie Nelson, JAX (21); Brandon Meriweather, NE (24)
2008: Kenny Phillips, NYG (31)
And, without further ado, here are those damning numbers. Players are ranked by big plays; essentially, I added up interceptions, fumble recoveries and touchdowns, then ranked by that total. Seemed fairest to me in terms of measuring true impact. The results...
| Player-Year | G (GS) | TK | INT | FR | TD |
| E. Reed, BAL (2002) | 48 (47) | 234 | 21 | 4 | 3 |
| R. Williams, DAL (2002) | 48 (48) | 267 | 9 | 4 | 2 |
| M. Griffin, TEN (2007) | 31 (25) | 121 | 10 | 1 | 1 |
| T. Polamalu, PIT (2003) | 48 (32) | 227 | 7 | 2 | 2 |
| S. Taylor, WAS (2004) | 46 (44) | 264 | 7 | 1 | 1 |
| A. Edwards, GB (1999) | 31 (4) | 57 | 6 | 1 | 1 |
| R. Nelson, JAX (2007) | 29 (28) | 114 | 7 | 0 | 0 |
| A. Archuleta, STL (2001) | 42 (41) | 251 | 2 | 3 | 1 |
| J. Allen, MIA (2006) | 45 (22) | 104 | 5 | 1 | 0 |
| L. Landry, WAS (2007) | 32 (32) | 160 | 2 | 3 | 0 |
| R. Anderson, CAR (2000) | 27 (9) | 59 | 1 | 3 | 1 |
| B. Meriweather, NE (2007) | 32 (10) | 106 | 4 | 0 | 0 |
| D. Gibson, OAK (2001) | 47 (25) | 144 | 3 | 1 | 0 |
| D. Whitner, BUF (2006) | 43 (42) | 255 | 2 | 0 | 0 |
| M. Huff, OAK (2006) | 44 (32) | 187 | 1 | 1 | 0 |
| K. Phillips, NYG (2008) | 16 (0) | 62 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
Lovely, right? Whitner ranks #14 of the 16 safeties drafted over the past ten years. One of the guys behind him is Kenny Phillips, who is just coming off of a rookie year in New York in which he didn't register his first career start - yet he still has half as many interceptions as Whitner has recorded in three years.
Look, I knew it was bad. I knew that Whitner's impact had been miniscule through his first three seasons. But as prepared as I was for the awfulness of this exercise, I was not prepared to call Whitner the second-worst safety drafted in the first round over the past decade. (Phillips deserves a pass, as he'll be fine now that he's a full-time starter for the Giants.) Whitner only avoids being the worst because the guy drafted immediately before him, Oakland's Michael Huff, has been slightly worse. No-names like Rashard Anderson - who spent a whopping two years in the NFL - made more plays than Whitner. This is quite easily the most vomit-inducing exercise I've done in the 21 months I've spent here at Buffalo Rumblings.
It's time to set aside the "leadership", "character" and "potential" terms when talking about Whitner. I don't care that only two safeties (Williams and the late Taylor) had more tackles over their first three years than Whitner. Any average safety that gets significant playing time, particularly in a Cover 2-based defense, can rack up tackles. I suppose that there is still potential for Whitner to get better. But when you consider the fact that only three safeties - Taylor, Landry and Huff - were drafted higher in the pecking order than Whitner, his lack of impact hits its most overwhelming level. Think we don't need to pursue a play-making safety? Think again, folks.
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This is quite easily the most vomit-inducing exercise I’ve done in the 21 months I’ve spent here at Buffalo Rumblings.
LOL
Excellent post Brian. Not much more to say really. He underperforms for his draft position – does take bad angles and isn’t a playmaker.
We do NEED playmaker – hopefully we’ll find one.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
WHY DIDNT WE TAKE NGATA!!
I kid. I kid.
I have to ask. When does it become Perry Fewel’s fault? It seems to me like every defender underperforms here in Buffalo under this guy. Let’s go through a list of the complaints:
1. Whitner doesn’t make plays
2. Our DEs don’t get any pressure
3. Kawicka Mitchell misses too many tackles
4. Poz isn’t being used right
5. Our corners are getting burned on short routes
It seems to me like EVERYBODY on our defense is screwing up in one way or another. Donte surely deserves a lot of the blame for his play, and I agree it is truly vomit inducing, but you have to start to wonder why it is that everyone seems to play worse on defense in Buffalo. Sean Taylor, Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, Roy Williams, Laron Landry and Meriweather all play on teams that get after the QB, wrap up ball carriers, and fly to the ball. I don’t ever see the Bills doing any of those things. I bet if Whitner was on the Cowboys or Steelers or Ravens he would be making plays. This has to be Fewell’s fault.
Side note, can you please not insinuate that Roy Wiliams is better than any safety on that list. He stinks and gets burned all the time. All he does is hit like a linebacker.
Anyway, this is depressing. Come on Donte….
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Side note, can you please not insinuate that Roy Wiliams is better than any safety on that list.
Where on earth did you get that impression?
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
I saw him ranked second on your list, I guess. Also, are those stats for all the safety’s first three years? No way right? If it is then Ed Reed is the greatest safety of all time!
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Yeah, it’s first three years. I included game/start stats so nobody got the wrong impression. And yeah, Ed Reed is by a monumental margin the best first-round safety of the past decade.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
the most damning stat of all
Has to be Griffin and Nelson who have eached played almost a full season less than Donte. Wow, those numbers really hurt
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
This is my first reaction, that at what point is it out of the player’s hands and on the coaches’ inability to get through to these guys? I’m not ready to give up on Donte, and there’s no way he needs to be a bust. I think he needs to be coached up; coached differently.
Hey, look on the bright side everyone – at least the Bills didn’t draft Michael Huff!
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 29, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if you can blame all that on Fewel poz. And i don’t really want to argue about Posluskny with you, but in my opinion he is playing in the correct position. In addition, he has been play pretty well as an ILB.
Is is Fewel’s fault that Chris Kelsay can’t beat someone one on one? is it his fault that kawika mitchell misses tackles? In my opinion, it’s not Fewel’s fault. I personally don’t like Kawika Mitchell very much. The Bills could draft some linebackers this year. Aaron Curry would be a long shot, but there is a kid named Tyrone McKenzie that is pretty good.
You have to realize that it’s more about the players than the coaching.
by buffaloboy90 on Jan 29, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
the list
was more a list of complaints I’ve heard here. I’m 100% fine with Poz in the middle or on the outside. Maybe you are right, maybe it is the players, but I tend to think that at some point the coach has to take the blame. If Fewell wwas a good coach he would make his voice heard and get himself the right personnel for his scheme. Are you insinuating that Perry has no say in who the Bills go after on defense in free agency and the draft? I certainly hope not.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
You can't blame Fewell
Whitner has no instincts and no big play ability. You’d think if he was capable of making some big plays, he would ya know, do it from time to time….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
I didn't think you would pass this thread up.
I don’t really like to rag on Whitner, but he makes it so easy!
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Oh I have a reply coming up
I just got home. And after reading Brian’s great write up, the vitriol is about to fly!!!
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
LOL
Better late than never. In your opinion, should Whitner be the first in line out the door (after Kelsay, of course)?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
No
Kelsay should be the first out the door. And then his contract, And then his jersey, and then anything else associated with his stench. Next up is Fowler and McCargo. Whitner can ride their coat tails….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
ya know
I’m not as down on Royal as others. Yeah, he stinks at catching the ball and holding onto it once he does, but he has some value with his blocking. Some value is more value than any of those other scrubs have…I won’t be upset if he’s cut, but I won’t be angry if he’s retained….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Is Kelsay's stench
on your avatar?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
yeah
just him missing a tackle. appropriate enough…
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Does that avatar really do Kelsay justice?
How about a picture of Kelsay cleaning out his locker on locker clean out day? That might be more appropriate.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Give me time
There are only so many Chris Kelsay pictures tagged on the intertubes. Once I get a chance to peruse the BB.com photo archives or take a still from one of the videos, I should have a more appropriate avatar!
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
He's still young
Maybe his best football is ahead of him. Also, maybe he could use a little help from the other safety position. His best year was his rookie season when Ko Simpson actually played like he was worth millions. Maybe he is still learning how to be an NFL safety. Maybe I am running out of maybe’s.
Blogger Approved Avatar(hopefully)
Lack pass rush
I hate when people use that argument to defend Whitner’s bland performance. Check out the big play numbers posted by safeties on teams with an even worse pass rush than Buffalo like the Browns and Chiefs. Their guys still are capable of picking off a pass here and there.
You don’t draft a player at #8 overall and expect him to be carried by his supporting cast. You draft a player there to make the players around him better. Whitner doesn’t even come close to doing it.
There are worse starting safeties out there than Whitner…he’s not the biggest problem on the team, but he’s part of the problem when it comes to forcing turnovers just as much as Kelsay and Denney are.
by Make a play Whitner on Jan 29, 2009 1:40 PM EST reply actions
You cannot deny that a pass rush makes the D-backfield look gloriously better. Sure, without it, the QB’s throwing the ball more, but you can’t demand that a safety should be making the play when his D-linemen aren’t helping out.
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"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 29, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
You don’t draft a player at #8 overall and expect him to be carried by his supporting cast. You draft a player there to make the players around him better.
Good point, although I doubt the Bills drafted him because they thought he’d be dynamite once they got the team built around him.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Bills drafted him because he's a leader
which in my opinion does really warant the pick. He’s just not that good.
by buffaloboy90 on Jan 29, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
“Hey guys, I know that I don’t produce on the field, but just follow my lead anyway!”
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
yea being picked 8 really should imply that hes a playmaker
You are right. But I still think the Bills over valued him
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
I was going to say it, but you beat me to it.
Truely great players (as expected when they are selected at #8 overall), will make the players around them better, not the other way around (i.e. Whitner needs help from his teammates, etc.).
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Something i'd like to see...
Compare these 16 players (when applicable) over their first 3 years. How did Ed Reed fair his 1st 3 years? If you divide the INTs out over his career, it averages around 3 a season. I just think this might help to better judge Donte’s impact.
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 29, 2009 1:42 PM EST reply actions
All of these numbers ARE over the first three years. Reed had 5, 7 and 9 picks in his first three years.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
And to follow up, Reed has 22 more picks over his past four seasons, for a total of 43 in just seven seasons. He’s recorded at least 5 interceptions in six of his seven seasons (five twice, seven twice and nine twice, including 2008). The only aberration was a one-pick performance in 2004. He’s scored 5 touchdowns in his career on interception returns alone.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
Im still trying to wrap that around my brain
that is honestly amazing. Just as many tackles and so many big plays, he really puts Donte to shame
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Just for the heck of it…
Reed has 91 career PD (passes defended) in 7 years. That’s an average of exactly 13 per season.
Whitner has 7 career PD in 3 years. That’s just over 2 per season.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
wow
wow wow wow. I am speechless. So what does Donte do exactly. Based on this information it would seem he lets receivers catch the ball and then tackles them after they convert a critical third down.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Wait a minute! There are a few silver linings!
1. Whitner provides housing services for rookie teammates.
2. Whitner participates and appears in United Way commercials.
3. Whitner writes checks that he can’t cash (whoops, is that really a good thing?)
Who cares what he does on the field, right?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
ha!
Why does that feel like a theme here in Buffalo? DJ, nice guy doesn’t produce, Kelsay, nice guy doesn’t produce, Preston, nice guy doesn’t produce, Whitner, nice guy doesn’t produce. Yikes, any more to add to the list
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Robert Royal seems like a nice guy.
Does he not make enough plays to qualify?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Oh he does, just for the other team!
I told the witch doctor that I was in love with the Buffalo Bills, and instead of telling me to say "Oh eeh oh oh ah, ting tang walla walla wing bang" in order to make me feel better he told me to buy a gun and end it.
Ummm, yeah, exactly
He is more of a read, think about it, have a sandwhich, THEN react type of player. He does nothing to dicatate the flow of the passing game against our opponents, and he can’t tackle like a real football player does. I’ve seen better tackling form by rookie pee-wee players for cripes sake!
I told the witch doctor that I was in love with the Buffalo Bills, and instead of telling me to say "Oh eeh oh oh ah, ting tang walla walla wing bang" in order to make me feel better he told me to buy a gun and end it.
insert jaw-dropping emoticon here.
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"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 29, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
That says anything I could ever hope to. Just wow.
And is it just me, or does that look like the one kid from Kids Next Door…wow, I need a hobby.
John Madden told me 90% of the game was half-mental...
by TheK-GunNeedsReloaded on Jan 29, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 29, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions
It’s really weird to see Kevin with his eyes open…
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
What they said about Whitner
Anyone care to re-live the moment (I think you will need Real Player; let me know if this works):
http://play.rbn.com/?url=nfl/nfl/open/bills/demand/05billsvision/042906firstrd.rm
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
i remember Berman saying something like “we have our first twist of the draft” or something to that extent. stupid stupid pick
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 29, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
After the first round or after the first day,
Kiper criticized the McCargo trade/pick more than the Whitner pick.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
It felt like socks at Christmas that first day.
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 29, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Ha, more like getting beaten with oranges in those socks to me...
I told the witch doctor that I was in love with the Buffalo Bills, and instead of telling me to say "Oh eeh oh oh ah, ting tang walla walla wing bang" in order to make me feel better he told me to buy a gun and end it.
well
this is impressive. Finally puts some closure to this issue. Which is why I don’t care if whitner plays SS, FS or any other position. He isn’t instinctual. He isn’t a play maker. He isn’t anything other than a guy who runs his mouth and lives off the laurels of being picked #8. As far as I’m concerned getting rid of “high character” Whitner and Kelsay and replacing them with some talented players would do this organization some good. We can’t continue to have Captains that don’t produce on the FIELD where it counts.
I love Whitner because of what he says. Not because he ever makes plays. He can’t cover as well as Scott, and he can’t tackle as well as him either. IMO, Scott at SS and brining in a new FS, and putting Whitner in sub packages is the way to go with this unproductive kid from THE Ohiot St. The first out of Winfield, Clements and Youboty to truly disappoint
MARVelous
I said it in another thread, but what about former Packer KGB to replace Kelsay?
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 29, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
We can do way better than KGB. Bertrand Berry is light years ahead of KGB at this point.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Not the thread to take up the space anymore with but, he’s younger and his stats are more consistent/productive, at least from what I saw. We should consider looking at him, this site that is. I have nothing to do with the team, as you know.
"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"
"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 29, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
More stats!
In two years as a starting safety at tOSU, Whitner combined for 142 tackles (we’ve seen that), 3 picks (we’ve almost seen that) and a 26-yard INT return for a TD.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
I will always remember the look on Mel Kiper’s face when the Whitner pick was announced. Kiper, and the others on ESPN, just sat there in stunned silence for a few seconds before any words came out of his mouth. Dead air and a dropped jaw. This was the reaction from one of the biggest mouths in sports. I think Whitner was projected to go in the 20’s that year. Then they fumbled with their papers and tried to defend the pick. It was strange.
I don’t think our vaunted coaching staff sets ANY goals for the players or any measuring stick for improvement. It is boggling to me that with his experience Whitner still does not know basic tackling fundamentals. He looks clearly afraid to hit people sometimes. He is almost always late to the ball and does take bad angles too often. If we see ANY improvement from him this year it will show in his tackling ability. Does he want to improve his game? Learn how to tackle.
everything goes better with a BIG MACK
again
What the hell is Perry Fewel doing with this guy and everybody else for that matter? You’d think that a good defensive coordinator could fix tackling issues rather quickly
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
i dislike Fewell
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 29, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
i like the bluntness
I do too. Sometimes I feel like his scheme, like every other I suppose, needs a pass rush to work effectively. Still doesn’t address bigger issues like why our guys under perform and why, if he knows he needs a pass rush, Fewell’s voice in the organization to get one has been ignored.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
You’d think that a good defensive coordinator could fix tackling issues rather quickly
Call me crazy, but I’d implicate a position coach there, too.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
true enough
so what the hell is wrong with our coaching staff??? Arghhhhh. Deep breaths…deep breaths….and you all wonder why we love mock drafts so much. You can’t be frustrated with something that hasn’t happened yet.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
The whole defensive staff to be honest needs to be chucked
Also, lets be honest here, the club med routine in TC does NOT help our team with the fundamentals of playing tough football. Yeah, your team starts the season a little fresher, but when you have players showing they cannot execute the simple things correctly, you do what Whisenhut did in Az this year, put them back in pads and MAKE them play like they mean it. I guys seem way to content to cash a check and go home, all talk and NO walk by many of them.
I told the witch doctor that I was in love with the Buffalo Bills, and instead of telling me to say "Oh eeh oh oh ah, ting tang walla walla wing bang" in order to make me feel better he told me to buy a gun and end it.
Kiper and other had the same stunned look when we selected John Fina as a first round LT. I recall Fina was heavily criticized his entire tenure, but looking back he was a fairly stable player, just like we look back at Kelso, Reimersma, Talley, etc.
I think Whitner represents the Levy type pick which is smart, versatile, solid, etc. I’m not as down on Whitner or this defense. Everything depends on they players are used. It says something to me that this guy can be switched back and forth between two positions. i think Levy and Jauron got what they wanted.
I think we have a very good defense, especially with guys maturing. We really are at a place that one good FA and draft depth will propel us to the next level. We beat the teams we were supposed and faltered against good teams. I’m not advocating for Whitner or if he was a valid 8th pick. I think at the end of the day we will get value from him for a long time.
Bash on Whitner Day
One of Kurupt’s favorite topics…
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
me too – K’s not alone in that dept
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 29, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
whitner/Kelsay
seriously what have they done to deserve to be captains? That is a major issue. They are the leaders of the defense and they don’t perform. I hope Stroud and Poz get the captain tags this year.
MARVelous
Yeah
If you don’t perform on the field, nobody is going to listen to what you have to say.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
um
so does that mean nobody listens to DJ?
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
I suppose
that if what the players are being coached to do is not rewarded with a victory on Sunday, the players may eventually tune DJ out, if they have not already. Of course, Trent will continue to text his love messages. LOL.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
It never ceases to amaze me the variety of ways in which any post, positive or negative, always works its way back to Dick Jauron.
You guys have a one-track mind. :)
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
ha!
Its just so frustrating when you know in your heart, like I do, that the Bills have the best young nucleus in the league at key positions (QB, RBs, MLB, CB) but you still get this nagging feeling that the guy in charge may not be capable of helping them realize their potential. Of course, I also don’t want Trent to be damaged like JP, so I’m not getting too riled up about one more chance for the old skipper.
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Its just so frustrating when you know in your heart, like I do, that the Bills have the best young nucleus in the league at key positions (QB, RBs, MLB, CB) but you still get this nagging feeling that the guy in charge may not be capable of helping them realize their potential.
Wow. Wow, sir. Wow.
It’s WAY less frustrating when you think with your mind instead of your heart and realize that the Bills DON’T COME CLOSE to having “the best young nucleus in the league at key positions”. :)
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
I think we're better talent wise on offense, honestly I do. Coaching.....
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
Really?
Ryan>>Trent
Turner=Lynch
White>>>>>Evans
Jenkins>=Reed
ATL OL>BUF OL
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
again, coaching......
I think Trent can be better or just as productive as Ryan, I think has been sadly misused in Buffalo, Jenkins is nothing special. Coaching makes them look better
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
I think has been sadly misused in Buffalo
I meant Evans
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
One Common Denominator
the top Safeties on your list have is that they play on a defense that has a real front seven. Their teams have pass rushes from their D-Line. I’m going to give Witner some slack and say he’s a good safety and if he played for Baltimore or Pittsburg he be All-Pro.
As discussed above,
Truely great players (as expected when they are selected at #8 overall), will make the players around them better, not the other way around (i.e. Whitner needs help from his teammates, etc.).
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Can you name a Truely Great Safety that plays on a team with a horrible front seven and no pass rush from the D-Line?
Off the top of my head
I know that Reggie Nelson has made a lot more plays than Whitner in half the amount of playing time. The Jags have John Henderson and Mike Peterson in their front seven; the Bills have Marcus Stroud and Paul Posluszny. I’d call the front seven a draw, but why is there such a difference in the number of plays being made from the safety position?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Cleveland’s Sean Jones had 4 picks and 5 PD last year while the Browns picked up 17 sacks. He might hit “truly great safety” level on a competent defense.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
You beat me to it
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
by MonStarr_716 on Jan 29, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
I bet we can find more examples...
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Chinedum Ndukwe
108 Tackles
5 sacks
10 pass def.
4 int’s
in 25 total games
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
by MonStarr_716 on Jan 29, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
oh yeah...he plays for the bengals....
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
by MonStarr_716 on Jan 29, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions
Before the Jets went on their spending spree
and beefed up their front seven, Kerry Rhodes was making more plays than Whitner. I would trade Whitner for Rhodes.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Trade Whitner for Rhodes? I know your kidding. Or you have been going to the Modrak school of talent evaluation.
Trade Whitner for Rhodes? I know your kidding.
Well, I know you’re kidding about being kidding. :)
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
Their talent may be a wash, but their production is not even close!
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Would you trade Whitner for Jones? Buy the way didn’t Jones have three of his picks against the Bills?
No, I wouldn’t trade Whitner for Jones, because Jones is a free agent. Why trade when you can have both?
And no, Jones didn’t have three of his picks against the Bills. In fact, he had zero of his picks against the Bills.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Look It,
If Whitner didn’t have to to play the run every play because the front seven can’t make a tackle to save their life he would certainly have more INT’s.
True !!! True !!!!
I agree totally !!!!! The Jills could tackle better than the Bills front seven!!!!
Two Things
1. Whitner played FS in deep coverage more in 2008. Bryan Scott usually played SS and was closer to the line of scrimmage. I think Scott did more of the dirty work, taking on blocks and defending the run than Whitner. Whitner had opportunities to make plays in pass defense, and he didn’t get it done.
2. In 2007, Cleveland was 27th in run defense. In 2008, Cleveland was 28th in run defense. Just as bad, if not a worse run defense than Buffalo. Yet, Sean Jones still found a way to make more plays, such as INT’s, than Whitner.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Can’t the same argument be made about Jones, though?
Yes, it can.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
He needs help !!!
If the Bills had any sort of decent defensive front playing in front of him, then he would be able to do what a true safety is suppose to do, instead of covering for other players.
Excuses, excuses…
I mean, I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that Whitner is statistically one of the worst first-round safeties of the past decade.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
we all need help
12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 29, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
As Brian has said,
Buffalo Rumblings is like an online sports bar where we can lash out our frustrations regarding a team that we unconditionally and irrationally support!
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
agreed
its these kinds of discussions that make me wanna walk over to the super america and buy a nice pack of smokes and feel alive again……
we do need therapy though. All of us. We are delusional. We need to realize what 3 straight 7-9 campaigns mean. And last year against the easiest schedule we’ll see in 5 years. It is what it is. We just ain’t that good folks and the talent is a lot further away than I even thought. I thought you add Stroud & Mitchell, a healthy Poz and I thought our defense would be WAY better than it was. The offense always scared me with Turk & Trent and still does. We are average, middle of the road football team
MARVelous
yea but...
we are only going to get better. We are so young! Our QB, RB, and MLB are all younger than me and I ain’t that old! Leodis McKelvin will be a superstar this year and recent comments by Fewel that he expects him to be means he’ll be starting which means Greer or McGee are gone. We are really not that bad. In fact, I would wager we are a great coach away from being a playoff team…..
Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.
If by some kind of dumb luck
we pick up a couple of good front seven players, the Bills would have a very good secondary. Not only that, we would make the playoffs.
Crazy!!
You are right !!! We are all crazy for being Bills fans !!! That reminds me I have to take my meds !!!!
I think MARVelous is from Minneapolis, MN
so maybe it is the Mall of America?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Super America = 7 Eleven
Teach your children about the four seasons: preseason, regular season, postseason, and off-season
I just want to know...
How many more years and how many more excuses are we going to give Whitner?
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
when you take someone eigth overall...
You expect them to make a substantial difference. Aside from the overwhelming stats that support his lack of production, he has missed tackles in crucial situations. I don’t care if he has had injuries or the defense has been unable to get pressure on the QB, when you take a safety 8th overall, you expect to notice him on the field. Hopefully he’ll show some major progress in his contract year this year, or else it’s time to move on and I don’t care how much of a leader he is…If he really wants to be a good leader its starts with performing.
BUT…I still don’t think the Bills are ready to move on from him yet after being drafted so high and this offseason, we have way too many needs to go out and get a major FA acquisition.
Don't forget to pay the troll toll...
The Bills Secondary is not the Problem
Look at what Jim Leonard did with Baltimore’s front seven. Anytime a NFL QB has 15 seconds to find a reciever the secondary is going to look bad.
NICE !!!!!!
Good comment !!! Leonard stunk when he played for the Bills and everytime I watched a Ravens game he looked like a all pro !!!!!
Last time I checked, Leonhard had more interceptions in 2007 (2) with Buffalo than he did last year in Baltimore (1).
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Would you trade Whitner for Rhodes?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Would you trade Whitner for Nelson?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
You’re asking that question a lot, and I don’t understand its relevance.
My point here was that Leonhard did just as much in Buffalo as a part-time safety as he did in Baltimore as a part-time safety. Which debunks the whole “he was WAY better in Baltimore” argument. He was only better in Baltimore because he was in Baltimore.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
The Bills' secondary is not the problem,
but Whitner may not be part of the solution either. The 2008 Kansas City Chiefs had the worst past rush in NFL history. They only had 10 sacks for the entire season! Opposing quarterbacks had 30 seconds to find a receiver (okay, not quite). Yet, their starting FS Jarrad Page made more plays than Donte Whitner.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Game-changing plays
such as interceptions and forced fumbles.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
It is not Whitners fault he was chosen #8, it was the Bills brilliant front office who picked him !!!! Year in and year out ,with the exception of a few players, the brains of our wonderful team fail in the draft !!!!
If that’s an argument you’re making in defense of Whitner, it’s a very feeble one.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Bills will let him walk if he stinks again this year
We could play almost any FA safety in his spot and not notice anything at this point. The only way he comes back after this year, is if the Bills don’t want to admit he WASN’T worth a #8 pick. IF Modrak has more power now than before, we’ll see Donte gone when his contract is up since he wanted Ngata and he got overruled.
I told the witch doctor that I was in love with the Buffalo Bills, and instead of telling me to say "Oh eeh oh oh ah, ting tang walla walla wing bang" in order to make me feel better he told me to buy a gun and end it.
no they won't
They just can’t let their precious captain leave in FA! If Chris Kelsay can get a big contract, Whitner can probably expect the same. Barf
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
What about Sacks and Tackle for Loss
Strong safety, where he played most of the time, is frequently used up in the box for run support. How does Whitner stack up on those measures? Now that he is a full time free safety, maybe his INT’s will increase. Maybe Royal will end up on a team in our division, and Whitner can scoop up a few fumbles next year.
?????
Instead of picking on Whitner, we should be commenting on our wonderful ALL WORLD DE that we paid too much money for !!!!! Mr. Coverage Sack !!!!!
We’ve already done it.
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on Jan 29, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Somebody loves them some exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
LOL
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Sign me up!
I love talking about our DE’s. Defensive Ends, that is a pretty appropriate description for these guys actually….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
not as bad as you guys like to think
Here are some arbitrary numbers I created using the stats Brian showed us. I think it validates Whitner is not worth his #8 pick, but it does show he’s a lot better than most of you think. how I scored it, 1 point for tackles, 3pts for INTs, 2 for FR and 6 for TDs. Ed Reed is a freak and shouldn’t be on the list because almost no one in other positions are doing what he has done in his short span (HOF already). I don’t want to say Whitner is amazing or even great, but he is above average i think and this should show somewhat that he does a respectable job, no he’s not a game changer, but he is not a weak point on our team.
Players Total
Reed, BAL 323
Williams, DAL 314
Taylor, WAS 293
Archuleta, STL 269
Polamalu, PIT 264
Whitner, BUF 261
Huff, OAK 192
Landry, WAS 172
Griffin, TEN 159
Gibson, OAK 155
Nelson, JAX 135
Allen, MIA 121
Meriweather, NE 118
Edwards, GB 83
Anderson, CAR 74
Phillips, NYG 65
I would like to get some feed back, I know you guys love looking at numbers, and so let me have it good or bad. GO BILLS.
Just shows how you can use statistics to support any argument. Whitner is not a problem for the Bills. To the contrary ,he is an asset.
An asset...
off the field! LOL…
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Award winning !!!!!!
I even wanted to get off the couch and walk to the fridge!!!! Didn’t do it !!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A huge asset !!!! Only guy on the defense with any swagger !!!
Swagger + Production > Swagger
See McKelvin, Leodis.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Swagger?
How can a guy that does nothing impactful have any swagger?
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Whitner is impactful...
off the field?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Whitner couldn't make an impact
if he was dropped out of a airplane without a parachute!
Teach your children about the four seasons: preseason, regular season, postseason, and off-season
THe fact that WHitner and Huff are so high on your list shows the system is flawed.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 29, 2009 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
no it shows they are more active they what you say.
becasue they arent on highlight reals doesnt mean they are bad. i agree the system is flawed, but so is trying to say how good a player is by 40 times and bench press. i’m just showing that if you put the stats against a point system and look at it, he’s not as bad as you want to make him look. it’s not the player as much as it’s the defense he plays on. why does Bannan and Jim lenoard look better on the Ravens? they didnt get that much better, they play on a better deffense that allows them to make more plays.
OK... so the points system you used
It gives one point for a tackle and 3 for an INT, 2 for a Fumble Recovery….
Guys get ten tackles in a game routinely but most don’t get an INT routinely….
Your system could work but you need to adjust your scoring for the bigger impact plays and less likely plays. Whitner has a lot of tackles but at the safety position we expect more than that like interceptions and passes defended. If he was a linebacker the tackles argument would be better.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 29, 2009 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
i agree, but i posted it before i played around with the numbers
but, i’m just showing he’s not a major problem on the team. we dont draft a player to take his spot right now, there are larger problems right now. DT and OLB are much bigger priorities.
How is a third DT a priority over a starting position like safety?
We have two very good DTs and a good rotational guy in Johnson. Could we use a gamechanger there? Yeah but we could use a gamechanger at safety first.
I think Whitner is not as bad as other people but he surely isn’t good.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 30, 2009 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
how about our 2nd DT
we have Stroud, that’s it, we have average DT after that. Williams is no more than a 2nd b guy. i love having williams on the team, but i would rather have the other one, Pat.
well duh but for the pricde he is a very reliable starter.
Our Williams had some really good games this year. When you have a srviceable starter I think we need to add serviceable starters at some other spots.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 30, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think people are always down on Roy (The shorter one) Williams too
If the national media and Dallas fans are always down on Roy, just what the heck would Whitner have to do to get some cred?
Roy is terrible in coverage
absolutely awful. That’s where he gets the bad rap…
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Thats what I hear
But if that’s the case it calls Brian’s list into question. If Roy (The one with his mouth shut) Williams is “terrible in coverage” despite the Impact stats above, then no matter how good your safety is, you’d rather they weren’t putiing up numbers, you want your front 7 making those plays. The more I look at these safety stats, the more I think our defense is only a couple of pieces away from being really good. We are a linebacker and DE away from the promised land. I think if the right moves are made, Whitner’s production will increase (hopefully not in tackles) but his interceptions anyway. PRESSURE is the key whether or not there is a sack. Even though Whitner had more tackles in his first year by a large margin, you would say the team defense as a whole was much worse than today, especially in points allowed. And just to help you out K, I think this is a good time for KELSAY MUST GO
it's not the players it's the D system
I really believe it’s the Defensive game plan and system we use that causes our players to look like “busts.” no one on our team have good stats because we aren’t an aggressive, fast team. we keep everything in front us and make the tackle, that’s it. We had 3 players that could score TDs anytime they touched the ball, Geer, McLovin, and McGee. But we play so far off the ball what do you expect.
I’d love to hear just one of the front seven take some personel accountability and predict the Bill’s will make the Playoffs.
Accountability
Everyone (front office, players, coaches, and fans) knows that the Bills’ front seven needs improvement. However, other teams’ front seven’s also need improvement, but somehow…
THEIR SAFETIES MAKE MORE PLAYS THAN WHITNER!
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Playing with a separated shoulder is admirable, indeed. However, playing with pain and performing with pain are two different things. Anybody can be signed off the street to make tackles. It wasn’t like he was making big plays before he separated his shoulder, either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmRszdeJs5s
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
you are missing my point. I would like to see one of the front seven take personel ownership of the teams performance. Instead of the usual " We need to look at the tapes and improve on our mistakes". Only Whitner had the swagger to do it. Thats why he is a better player and teammate than any of the front seven players.
"We didn’t play up to our potential," said Chris Kelsay. "We made mistakes at critical points in games. We need to play with intensity and emotion from the first kickoff to the last buzzer. That’s one thing we didn’t do very well."
"I think there were too many times there where we didn’t play our best football and other teams were able to make plays and we didn’t," said Paul Posluszny. "We didn’t make the big plays that we need to win games. We didn’t take the victories from other teams. We played solid but we didn’t make anything great happen. That is what you have to do, to win and to make the playoffs you have to make big plays and play solid throughout the game and when it comes down to crunch time you have to be the team to make the big play to win."
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Fair enough.
Can you find a quote from Donte Whitner in which he took personal accountability (“I” or "me")?
The bottom line is it doesn’t matter what you say if you don’t perform on the field. Nobody is going to listen unless you have credibility or you prove yourself.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Whitner went out on a limb and predicted the Bills would make the playoffs. I consider that a personel committment to the team and the fans. It was refreshing to hear someone on the defense show some accountability and swagger.
I understand your point.
But don’t you agree that on-field production is more valuable?
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Of course I do. I would love to see the Bills defensive players ( especially the front seven) have an identity. To me when each team member takes personel accountability for his performance you have the making of a team. Thats when on the field performance improves. Thats when you start to have a real team. Thats when we , as fans, can start to believe we have something special to support.
117 comments before I post???
What’s going on….
Michael Huff has been awful…
That’s all I got.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by the way, on the post showing Whitner getting blowed up by Morris, where was the DT or DE or LB on the play.
Whitner was in position to make the play,
but he didn’t. That’s what stands out. I don’t think anyone here is disputing the fact that the front seven needs work.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
let’s be honest here folks, Whitner didn’t miss a lot of takles, do BS over he missing a few takles. he is one of the better safeties in that regard
Pile-Jumping?
Whitner usually does make the routine tackling plays, more often than not. However, he needs to make more big plays (interceptions, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries, sacks, etc.).
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
it won’t matter what player we put there, the deffense of scheme doesnt allow our players to make plays. if we played to our players strengths then he would produce numbers everyone would like. he has the speed and size, but do you ever see him blitz, maybe once every 3 game? our blitz packages are a joke, my little league team i coached were better than the Bills (not really). put our CBs on islands and let friggen get after the QB that’s what i want to see.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
Dick Jauron and Perry Fewell ran the same defensive scheme when they were in Chicago. One of their starting safeties at the time, Mike Brown, made the routine plays and the big, impact plays. What is the difference? Same scheme, different players. We’ve all acknowledged that the Bills need better players, particularly up front.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
didn’t we have atleast 3 tds returned for TDs by our corner backs this year? we still need better players, yes our safety isnt making the big play, but he also was moving back and forth from FS to SS, was Brown doing that?
Actually
I think Mike Brown started his career as a FS and then switched to SS (Mike Green moved to FS). Then, to help avoid all the injuries he had been suffering, Brown moved back to FS.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
i can’t really argue this point, i didnt watch the bears so i dont know how aggressive they played, but i’m guessing we had better cb’s and they had better everything else, ha. in either case, i hope Fewell and the team really step up this year. i’m hoping top 10 D with the additions we are about to make in this offseason
Weren’t you the leader of this idea last offseason?
Every Bills offseason is like deja vu!!!! UGH
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Yes.
Fundamentals apply to so many of our discussions.
Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.
probably
look at N.E and other teams, that keep adding better coaches or GMs to made up positions on there coaching staff. it doesnt hurt to have smarter coaches, Scouts, VPs, ect. it’s not a players fault when the system they are in does not favor their strengths, you hope the guys who draft them knows the strengths and weakness to the individual. I can’t stand hearing take the best player available, it doesnt make sense when the guy doesnt fit your scheme, how will he ever perform. i’m not saying Whitner doesnt fit, but having smarter managment will help reduce the errors on the field.
Whitner didn't miss a lot of tackles
ha!
How did he hurt his shoulder in the first place?
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
technique brother
technique…
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
by MonStarr_716 on Jan 30, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Marv Levy may be of the highest character, but...
…he didn’t do us any great favors with that rookie draft. The Whitner and McCargo picks have set us back, no question. You cannot afford to have two first round picks be inconsequential. Plus, we traded up to grab McCargo. I wanted to believe for the longest time that Levy and the braintrust knew more than the draft pundits did. Sadly, they did not.
Sure, we have been fortunate with a few later round picks such as Butler and Williams, but the impact players must come from the first day picks. This is where we have struck out, for the most part. Yet, we continue on with the same scouting department year after year.
Perry Fewell? I’ve been saying for some time that he has gotten a free pass, more or less, in the midst of the ineptitude of our offensive coordinators in recent years.
Fewell has not done the job either. He coaches as passively as his boss.
I've been feeling Buffalo ill.
Chris Kelsay is stealing my tax dollars
OK, it took me a good half hour or so to peruse the comments in this wonderfully written post by Brian, and I’ve come to one conclusion: Donte Whitner hates puppies.
Brian, any reason you didn’t include FF’s and sacks? Did you not want to make Whitner look even worse?
I really don’t even know what to say about Whitner that hasn’t already been said. He has flat out been a disappointment in his 3 years here, and I really don’t think that’s debatable.
Looking back on it, why are we even surprised Whitner has done nothing in the big play department? He had a whopping 3 INT’s and 1 FF in college. That’s pretty pathetic for a guy who ended up a top 10 pick. What exactly was Marv thinking? Why couldn’t we have hired a real GM back in ’06?? ARgh.
Whitner just doesn’t even look capable of turning in big plays. His instincts are pretty awful, he has terrible tackling form, he can’t cover anyone and he is a step late in every facet of the game. I’m sick of watching the guy trying to cover a TE and having absolutely no success. He is always trailing the guy he’s covering, which is one reason he has those 7 PD’s in 3 years. And he runs funny, weirdo.
The thing that has really irked me most about Whitner is his mouth. If you are going to make a statement that your team is going to make the playoffs, you better back it up on the field. He did absolutely nothing to help his team take their game to the next level. Nothing makes you look more foolish than making a guarantee and then doing nothing to back it up. I just hope Chris Kelsay never makes a prediction.
I have a feeling that on January 30, 2010, I am going to be hoping the Bills release Whitner during the offseason. I hope not though. He can’t be as bad as he’s been these last 3 years, right?
Oh how I wish we had the 2007 safety class available to us in 2006….I’d take any of those guys over Whitner….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Brian, any reason you didn’t include FF’s and sacks? Did you not want to make Whitner look even worse?
My business is truth-telling, Kurupt. NOT public humiliation. :)
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 30, 2009 6:40 AM EST up reply actions
Brian knew...
…that Kurupt would do the public humiliating for him. :)
Hey, let’s look on the bright side. Whitner doesn’t have to do a whole lot in 2009 to eclipse his career totals.
A pickup off the streets last year, Bryan Scott, has arguably been our best safety for two years.
I've been feeling Buffalo ill.
A pickup off the streets last year, Bryan Scott, has arguably been our best safety for two years.
That really does say a lot. It says Whitner has been a bust for the most part. It says the draft talent evaluators have failed miserably at getting safeties. And it says that Bryan Scott probably shouldn’t have been sitting around with no job….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Honestly...
I’m really surprised you said Donte Whitner was the 2nd worst safety drafted in the 1st round over the past ten years. It’s really… really… really… provincial to conclude that from THAT analysis. And you omitted tackles and pass deflections from the analysis, which is strange… because tackles and PDs are “plays.”
Something you should consider with Whitner is that he has been playing out of position for the Bills and NONE of our safeties have been in playmaking positions in the current defensive scheme.
Another point to consider: EVERY one of the Top 5 safeties on the list are a part of Top 10 defenses their entire careers. I think its safe to say that if Whitner were on a team that rushed the passer and varied its scheme a little more, Whitner would have more opportunities to make plays.
Think that was in any way a legitimate analysis of a player’s talent level, think again.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
How many times have you heard me say “Buffalo’s coaches need to pick a position for Whitner and keep him there?” I thought I’d reached broken record levels on that one.
Think that was in any way a legitimate analysis of a player’s talent level, think again.
I love it when y’all get cute with my own words. Where in this entire project did I mention ANYTHING about talent level? I think Whitner is one of THE MOST TALENTED safeties in the game. This article was about production. There is a gigantic, monumental, Everest-sized difference between talent level and production.
How is tackling a receiver 15 yards down the field past the first-down marker a “play”? If there was a stat involving “clutch tackles”, such as tackles that prevent a first down or keep a player in-bounds in a clock management situation, then I might have referenced it here. As such, it’s difficult to include tackles because probably 75-85% of them (maybe even more) are of the “routine” variety.
I think its safe to say that if Whitner were on a team that rushed the passer and varied its scheme a little more, Whitner would have more opportunities to make plays.
I’ll reference what other people have referenced here: this article was about Whitner’s production RELATIVE TO HIS DRAFT POSITION. I think he’s a solid NFL starter, but he has produced nowhere near an eighth overall selection. Plus, as has also been repeated ad nauseam, good players make the players around them better. Whitner is decidedly not that type of player.
You wanted defended passes data? Got it right here for you, buddy… and Whitner comes off even worse.
Rank – Safety – Passes Defended, First 3 Years – New Total
1 – Ed Reed – 44 – 72
2 – Sean Taylor – 34 – 43
3 – Roy Williams – 27 – 42
4 – Troy Polamalu – 26 – 37
5 – Michael Griffin – 18 – 30
6 – Reggie Nelson – 15 – 22
7 – LaRon Landry – 16 – 21
8 – Adam Archuleta – 15 – 21
9 – Michael Huff – 17 – 19
10 – Derrick Gibson – 13 – 17
11 – Brandon Meriweather – 12 – 16
12 – Jason Allen – 9 – 15
13 – Rashard Anderson – 9 – 10
14 – Donte Whitner – 7 – 9
15 – Antuan Edwards – 1 – 9
16 – Kenny Phillips – 5 – 6
Um, woo hoo? He’s ahead of a first-year guy who hasn’t logged a start and, um, Antuan Edwards? He’s made a whopping 9 plays in 3 years? Yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and stand by my argument.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 30, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
well played
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 30, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
I swear, I’ve never, EVER had this much venom over one post. I’ve gotten about 30 emails from random people telling me I’m a moron for including the stats I did. It’s essentially hate mail. Why can’t people ever just disagree with someone when faced with an argument? Why must one resort to name-calling and general ill-intentioned vitriol? Is it just about making yourself feel better?
At any rate, I appreciate the feedback from everybody, and I’m working on a lengthy retort which I hope to post tomorrow. I’ll address everyone’s issues. In the meantime, let’s try and relax folks, eh? We’re all fans of the same team, for the love of Pete.
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on Jan 30, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve gotten about 30 emails from random people telling me I’m a moron for including the stats I did
really? wow – thats why I faked my email address. people are dumb on the interwebs.
i didnt’ find thing 1 wrong with this article – and instead of sending hate mail they should have just included the stats they thought were more pertinent.
sorry for their lameness dude
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 30, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
No, they did include the stats they thought were pertinent. Which is why I said I appreciated the feedback.
Long story short – and you can read the short story long tomorrow morning – I included every relevant stat, and Whitner didn’t budge an inch on this list.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 30, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Whitner didn’t budge an inch on this list.
doesn’t surprise me
I just don’t like people that attack your persons. no need for it.
Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider
by J2 on Jan 30, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Ha, well, it’s not the first time it’s happened, believe me. One gets used to it. It’s really not that big of a deal.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 30, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
Name-calling on the internet is such a funny phenomenon. What is the point?!?!
I love when people disagree with what I say. But I love it more when they come back with something of substance. That’s why this place is so great. I can post something stupid and have someone reply with a well thought out response backing up their opinion. Whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant, but being able to have quality discussions are what it’s really all about. Calling someone an idiot or something else ridiculous does nothing, and it’s pointless IMO.
But wasn’t the point of this article to point out “big plays” and how Whitner doesn’t make them? Sure, you probably should have included Passes defended and FF’s, but other than that, nothing else really constitutes a big play for a DB. I don’t understand how anyone can be so mad about what you included when the whole POINT of the post was surrounding big plays!!
And who’s Pete? Pete and Pete?
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
Haaaaaaaa, that show was great.
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on Jan 30, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions
I love when people disagree with what I say.
That explains a lot. ;)
The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.
ha
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 30, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions
Ok...stats aside...
When you watch the Ravens, Steelers, Cardinal, Eagles, , ‘Skins, Titans, etc…you KNOW when thier safeties are on the field. They have a presence. An aura about them. They might not grab a ughhh “pick six” (i hate the term) every time, but you know that they are there. It’s like the D-Lineman that doesn’t get a ton of sacks, but constantly gets pressure….they are a factor.
Now can we honestly say the same applies with lil Donte? I dont necessarily need him to put up Ed Reed #’s (although that would be nice =) but I just want him to be a factor when it comes Sunday….not Friday or during the off season….
Dud is like me on my couch…just…there
There is only one NFL football team that plays in New York state...and Canada?
Well said, thats about how I feel about Whitner
Hes there, like an end table to put your booze on while watching the tv. Useful, but not a difference maker, if I didn’t have an end table, I would just hold the drink. The best safeties, you KNOW where they are, the other teams players KNOW where they are, and the other teams coaches are doing their best to make sure they keep things away from them.
I told the witch doctor that I was in love with the Buffalo Bills, and instead of telling me to say "Oh eeh oh oh ah, ting tang walla walla wing bang" in order to make me feel better he told me to buy a gun and end it.
Name-calling and hate mail
Is it just about making yourself feel better?
Some Bills fans resort to name-calling to feel better, Brian. It happens at every home game,. and not every offender has spent their weekly check on stadium beer either.
Speaking for myself, but I presume others share my position, I was hoping like all hell that Whitner would be worthy of the #8 pick in the draft. He has not, and he never will. Not the #8 pick overall. Imagine were we might be if we had drafted with any brains in 2006? Just peruse the first two rounds that year and see who we could have had in place of Whitner and McCargo.
On second thought, don’t. It’s too painful.
I've been feeling Buffalo ill.
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