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The Whitner Statistical Redux: Donte still lacks impact

On Thursday, I put together a (flawed) statistical analysis in which I attempted to prove that third-year Buffalo Bills safety Donte Whitner has been one of the two or three least impactful first-round safety prospects of the past decade.  Since the time that article has aired, response has been either overwhelmingly positive or, more frequently, overwhelmingly negative.  After receiving an onslaught of emails either praising my efforts or questioning my sanity and/or credentials to even be writing such an article in the first place, I digested some of the more salient points made.  The result?  This post.

I've done everything you asked, which on the majority was including a wider variety of significant stats which were (not purposely) omitted from the first iteration of this exercise.  The net results?  Yeah, Donte Whitner is as unproductive as I said he was.  Before we get to the numbers, though, I've got some responding to do...

This list isn't completely random.
I heard a lot of complaints along the lines of "Why did you randomly pick such obscure names?"  They're not obscure, folks.  The sixteen players I listed in this exercise are all sixteen safeties drafted in the first round of the NFL Draft from 1999 through 2008 - i.e. the last decade.

All data is over each players' first three years, where applicable
I heard this argument so many times it made me want to scream...

Some of these safeties have played longer than Whitner!  You shouldn't be comparing entire careers, you should be comparing each player's first three years in the league!

Short answer: I did.  All data here is from each respective player's first three seasons in the league.  I thought I had made that point abundantly clear in the first iteration of this exercise; apparently I assumed incorrectly.  Again, I repeat: THIS IS DATA FROM EACH PLAYER'S FIRST THREE YEARS.  Games played and games started are included for the purpose of fairness.  Any player on the list with an "*" next to their name is a player that has played less than three NFL seasons.

Tackles as a meaningful statistic
Many of you were unhappy with the idea that I didn't include tackles as a meaningful stat in this analysis.  My response to that is simple.  If there was a stat involving “clutch tackles”, such as tackles that prevent a first down or keep a player in-bounds in a clock management situation, then I might have referenced it here. As such, it’s difficult to include tackles because probably 80-90% of them (maybe even more) are of the “routine” variety.  And, at any rate, this article is about "big plays" - and not very many tackles can be categorized as such.

Talent versus Production
Many have written questioning how such an analysis proves Whitner's lack of talent.  I'll say this once: statistics cannot prove (or disprove) talent level.  Busts are busts for a reason - they're highly talented, ultra-unproductive players.  Statistics prove production.  I did not write this post to prove Whitner is a bust.  I did not use this analysis to prove that Whitner lacks talent, because number one, I don't believe that - I think Whitner has a world of talent - and number two, it's impossible to do so.  I used this analysis to prove one thing: Whitner has been terribly unproductive as a playmaker.  That point is made crystal clear, in my opinion.

This doesn't mean I don't think Whitner can play in the NFL.
People are reading this as "Galliford hates Whitner".  I don't.  I like the kid.  I think he can play better.  I like his attitude.  In the off chance that Whitner or any of his teammates stumble across this blog in a drunken reverie or while searching for pornographic materials (or whatever else Bills players do online), however, I'd like to think that this will serve as a public notice to Mr. Whitner: we love you, but we want to love you more.  You need to start making more plays.

The pass rush argument.
Perhaps the most popular argument being made is "Whitner would be great on [insert good team]!" or "Let's see how he'd do with an actual pass rush!".  I could not agree more.  However, those are hypotheticals unrelated to this report.  As our very own Fort Worth repeatedly tells us, "great players make great plays".  Great players also make the players around them better.  Whitner, at least to this point in his career, is decidedly neither.

New statistics!
I heard a lot of complaints about forced fumbles, sacks, passes defended and safeties not being a part of the report.  Ask and you shall receive, Bills fans.  Again, not including tackles (see explanation above), I have compiled statistics from all sixteen players' first three years in eight statistical categories.  I've added up the "big play" categories and ranked the safeties accordingly.  First, the safeties...

1999: Antuan Edwards, GB (25)
2000: Rashard Anderson, CAR (23)
2001: Adam Archuleta, STL (20); Derrick Gibson, OAK (28)
2002: Roy L. Williams, DAL (8); Ed Reed, BAL (24)
2003: Troy Polamalu, PIT (16)
2004: Sean Taylor, WAS (5)
2005: no safeties drafted in Round 1
2006: Michael Huff, OAK (7); Donte Whitner, BUF (8); Jason Allen, MIA (16)
2007: LaRon Landry, WAS (6); Michael Griffin, TEN (19); Reggie Nelson, JAX (21); Brandon Meriweather, NE (24)
2008: Kenny Phillips, NYG (31)

The results?  Prepare to be shocked, folks...

Round 1 Safeties 1999-2008
Name (GS/G) TK SK INT FF FR TD PD S TOT
E. Reed (47/48) 234 4 21 4 4 3 44 0 80
T. Polamalu (32/48) 227 6 7 3 2 2 37 0 57
S. Taylor (44/46) 264 2 7 7 1 1 34 0 52
R. Williams (48/48) 267 4 9 6 4 2 27 0 52
M. Griffin* (25/31) 121 1 10 2 1 1 18 0 33
A. Archuleta (41/42) 251 9.5 2 2 3 1 15 0 32.5
Meriweather* (10/32) 106 2 4 3 0 0 16 0 25
R. Nelson* (28/29) 114 1 7 2 0 0 15 0 25
L. Landry* (32/32) 160 2 2 2 3 0 16 0 25
D. Gibson (25/47) 144 1 3 1 1 0 17 0 23
M. Huff (32/44) 187 1 1 1 1 0 17 1 22
J. Allen (22/45) 104 0 5 1 1 0 9 0 16
R. Anderson* (9/27) 159 0 1 1 3 1 9 0 15
D. Whitner (42/43) 255 1 2 2 0 0 7 0 12
A. Edwards (4/31) 57 0 6 0 1 1 1 0 9
K. Phillips* (0/16) 62 0 1 0 0 0 5 0 6

So, yeah.  There you have it.  With all of the relevant stats and all of the critiques out on the table, Whitner is still statistically the second-worst safety drafted in the first round over the past decade in terms of impactful plays.  (Again, I'm giving the Giants' Kenny Phillips a pass because he's coming off a rookie season in which he didn't start a single contest.)  He still ranks behind guys long labeled busts - guys like Derrick Gibson, Michael Huff and especially Rashard Anderson.

If there's anyone out there who'd like to continue to offer me feedback, positive or negative, on this exercise, I encourage you to do so in the comments section or via email.  But I don't think there are too many more counter-arguments to make.  Whitner is a solid starter at safety and his versatility is an asset to this team, but in three years, he has proven to be highly average overall and very mediocre when it comes to making game-changing plays.  That argument I made on Thursday?  I steadfastly stand by it.

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Brian I thought you made your case in your first post on this subject (for the record)

but this is above and beyond my friend…..well done….and it proves why you’re the right man for this job……(main blogger for the Bills) and this just re-affirms why I come here first and foremost for my daily Bills news……well done sir!

12/19/08 - Thank you KLJ for coming into my life.

by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 31, 2009 12:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

This is great stuff

And I believe he has to make more plays obviously…but our defense as a whole is terrible, and I lean towards coaching as the problem..guys are out of positiion to make plays as I see it, and seem to always be chasing. Whitner makes tackles, but as you said, they are of the everyday variety and he does very little in the special variety. I like, and i want to love him as a player on the Bills. That goes without saying. This teams needs to grow a pair and start kicking ass…

The Bills CAN win every game

by killascript on Jan 31, 2009 12:26 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Agree with NorCali, I thought your first post was spot on, this just cements your arguement

1- Whitner may have all the talent in the world, and I think he does have quite a lot of it in fact. But the issue here is the lack of anything he HAS done with said boatload of talent.
2- While he takes a leadership role and is a vocal person for the D, he has not backed up personally any of that talk with on field production.

This is very simple, he has talent, quite a bit in fact, but he has NOT done anything with that talent. He is being outplayed by people who I think are less talented, are on teams with worse defenses, and he cannot get it done. If he wants me to take him seriously as a football player, he needs to step up, makes several plays a game, and make me notice him for making plays rather than having plays made on him.

I told the witch doctor that I was in love with the Buffalo Bills, and instead of telling me to say "Oh eeh oh oh ah, ting tang walla walla wing bang" in order to make me feel better he told me to buy a gun and end it.

by WABillsfan on Jan 31, 2009 12:27 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

One of my favorite quotes

courtesy of “A Bronx Tale”:

The saddest thing in life is wasted talent….

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 31, 2009 1:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Spot On

I think being vocal and a leader give fans perception that Whitner is a good player. While these are good attributes, but they must translate to production. I’m actually surprised that people on this blog trash Chris Kelsay for just being a clubhouse vocal voice without on-field production, yet there are more supporter for Whitner.

In fact, I think the number of tackles support your point that Whitner let the plays come to him as opposed to proactively making plays. Safeties are always the last line of defense, so I don’t buy into the argument that the players around him are so bad that he had to be last line of defense and so he cannot be agressive enough to make plays. From Brian’s stats above, Reed, Polamalu, Taylor, and Williams all had 200+ tackles but that did not preclude them from making impact plays. If you are a good safety, you do both.

Bills fan half way around the world

by moncheri on Jan 31, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Amen!!

Excellent post and spot on details supporting your case. Whitner isn’t the “Bob Sanders” Levy was looking for in a safety. Whitner is very average and drafted way too high. I would like to see what Whitner, Simpson do with a pass rush and a good linebacking core. This may never come to fruition.

"You must play the game to fully understand what it takes day in and day out."

- I did for 12 years!

by Cutter3636 on Jan 31, 2009 12:40 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

what was the point of this?

Don’t let people like me bother you to a point where you need to show even more evidence about a irrelevant point. he’s average, i hate to say it but most of this team is average.

so what, i’m living in Dallas and i’m still getting season tickets!

by pastj12345 on Jan 31, 2009 1:08 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The point of this, friend, is to dispel the illusion that Whitner is this misunderstood player amongst the Bills’ fan base. You don’t know how much time I spent reading emails with “You’re painting the wrong picture on Whitner, he’s a good player on a bad defense” as the crux of their arguments. That’s a matter of opinion; his lack of playmaking as a matter of fact.

My point was to never get fans to cancel their season tickets, and I’m very glad you haven’t. How the heck are you planning on getting up here for those games?

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Jan 31, 2009 8:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well I plan on making as many games as possible. it will probably end up 3 or 4 games, but i’ll go to some road games like I did last year. the rest of the games i will just give the tixs to the family. If I could afford to go back for every game i would, but i’m just hoping to have the option for a playoff game this year. If you could buy them I think Bills fans need to, I’m an crazy fan like most of you and i’ll do whatever i can to keep them in Buffalo. Besides, Highschool (South Lake H.S) season tickets cost more than Bills Tix and so does the parking at the Cowboys stadium (i hope they go 0-16) this year. We are spoiled at the overall cost to go see the BIlls, and it’s really annoying to see so many fans cry about never watching them again b/c of a draft pick or FA accquisition or a head coaching move. I know it’s tough watching them, but it’s going to be a lot worse when we don’t have them at all.

sorry about the rant. Go Bills!

by pastj12345 on Jan 31, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice retort Brian

I bet you’ll still get hate mail because you didn’t add the tackles into the final numbers, as if tackles are a stat that describes a playmaker….

Does anyone have hope for Whitner? I think it’s hard to imagine a guy like this all of a sudden becoming a playmaker. It’s one thing if he was just inconsistent with big plays, but he’s shown absolutely no ability to even be close to making plays. He hasn’t shown any flashes of big play ability and I think that’s pretty damning when simply basing an opinion on watching the games instead of including stats…

He’s got one more year. If it’s another uneventful, invisible season, I can’t see him returning in 2010….

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 31, 2009 1:51 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I sort of agree with pastj

was the response really that bad that it deserved a second rehashing? I thought the valid points against your conclusion or for it were made in the posts. Did you actually receive that much hate mail that a second post was needed? If so, I never knew Donte had such a strong following. Either way, I thought the comments were made for the purpose of agreeing or disagreeing, instead of email.

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 31, 2009 2:17 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Rehash? I call it embellishment. People wanted me to do more work, so I did more work.

Yeah, Donte’s a popular player with a strong following. And yeah, I wouldn’t call it “hate mail”, because it wasn’t, but the response was strong enough to warrant a response from me. I didn’t mean to bore you, poz. I meant to prove my point.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Jan 31, 2009 8:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I liked the redo

Mythbusters also revisit myths after getting viewer feedback. I love the fact you were willing to try to fix perceived “errors” in the first analysis. Great job….rec’ed.

I am not a big Whitner supporter, but if I were to try it might sound something like this. To be fair to Whitner, you should only compare his stats to safeties who play in a Tampa 2 style 4-3 on teams with a similar win/loss record over those 3 years as the Bills. Another possibility would be to look at the average of how the defenses ranked over those 3 years. Safeties on good defenses have more opportunities to make big plays because they can take more chances. Whitner has to to be sure to make the tackle (just threw up a little) because he is often the last line of defense. He can’t be as aggressive as Ed Reed because he knows he doesn’t have the backup if he goes for the ball and misses.

There you have it. My good deed for the week :-)

Teach your children about the four seasons: preseason, regular season, postseason, and off-season

by Joe P. on Jan 31, 2009 9:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

As always good job Brian.

You prove why you’re the best and this blog is the best.

Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.

by MattRichWarren on Jan 31, 2009 10:01 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

7 Passes defended in 3 years. just pathetic

Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider

by J2 on Jan 31, 2009 10:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Suggs had 9 just last year...

…playing LB. And rushing a heavy percentage of the time. Golly.

by PozDispenser on Jan 31, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Crikey, it feels like I last commented a month ago (its been a week). Thats what you get for working in advertising during Super Bowl Week.

Re: Whitner. I think a big issue with the perception of Whitner is not only his high draft status, but the fact that each of the past two seasons various sports pundits have chosen him to be a ‘breakout’ player for that year. So we watch and hope, and get the same average performance. As easy as it is to dismiss those folks as talking heads, somewhere in the back of our minds maybe we’re still thinking “You know, maybe insert name of SI/ESPN/CBS/etc… writer here is right: This is Donte’s year.”

I think the most baffling thing is (and maybe we’ll get close to agreement here): How can it not already have happened? He seems to have both physical talent and the work ethic. Usually that translates into some high level success in this league. Maybe we’re wrong about one or both?

by PozDispenser on Jan 31, 2009 10:49 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Breakout year

Yes, that’s what they all have continued to tell us. Especially after this last season, when the healthy secondary was going to allow Whitner to roam all over the field and show us his playmaking ability. The scary thing is, he really did have his chance this year to roam all over the field (playing SS, FS, and CB) as well as spending considerable time at FS, and STILL showed us almost no playmaking ability. I think the only things I can remember were the interception in the Pre-season game (against either the Colts or Steelers) and the forced fumble in the Denver game.

by thefourwinds on Jan 31, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The second sentence should read, “Especially before this last season….”

by thefourwinds on Jan 31, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Impact

Every player on the field benefits enormously when one team mate must be accounted for by the offense on every play. If a team has two such players, the benefit increases exponentially. Witness Ray Lewis and Ed Reed. Their extraordinary ability makes it possible for an average player like Justin Bannan to be a force.
The Bills do not have a single such impact player on defense. What offensive coordinator says “where is Poz and how are we going to handle him?”
Whitner is not even close to drawing that kind of attention either. Until we have such a player we will continue our run of 7 and 9 seasons.

by jpheff on Jan 31, 2009 1:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What your stats are really pointed out

is how poor a pool of players the Bills have on defense. I would argue that with the exception of Stroud, a healthy McGee, and the potential of McKelvin Whitner is the best player we have on defense. With all the tackles he’s had to make I’m would not be surprised our front seven give him a part of their paychecks. I’m also impressed he stays as healthy as he does.

by gjv on Jan 31, 2009 1:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You don't count Poz in that list?

I am a little surprised by that I guess.

Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.

by MattRichWarren on Jan 31, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

unfortunately I do. However I consider this past season his rookie year so next season will be more telling. But as far as ‘08 is concerned, Poz was a filled jersey. I’ll say this though, he looks good in local commercials.

by gjv on Jan 31, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he was a filled jersey who was all over the field...

I don’t get why people are down on this guy.

Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.

by MattRichWarren on Jan 31, 2009 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Poz is the future of this deffence and if you ppl can’t see that then you weren’t watching him play

by CanadianBillsFan on Jan 31, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

earlier post on Poz

This guy is the most overrated player on the team. I will never forget the play against Denver when Cutler was scrambling, had a Bills’ lineman hanging on him, was running straight at Poz and Poz missed him! Also, he did not have a single tackle all season in the oppositions backfield.
I say try him at outside linebacker on another team.

by jpheff on Jan 31, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm… I agree that Poz has to step up his game, but to put a “Poz is the most overrated player on the team” comment in THIS THREAD, the Donte Whitner thread, is weird to me.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Jan 31, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry

You are correct; my mistake.

by jpheff on Jan 31, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

went back and looked

and I agree with the comments that Poz is overrated.

by jpheff on Jan 31, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ok. your opinion

Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.

by MattRichWarren on Feb 1, 2009 8:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

our corners and safeties

by gjv on Jan 31, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't find the first exercise flawed...

I was merely remiss in thinking the stats for the other guys were more than 3 years. Turns out I was accustomed to expecting less from the position, because of obvious reasons.

For the record, I like Whitner. Now it’s time for him to play Lynch-like: tight-lipped and angry on the field.

"Buffalo Bills Football 2009 (sponsored by Labatt): A Future as Uncertain as the Beer You’re Drinking"

"It's not delivery, it's DiGiorgio!"

by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 31, 2009 4:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

another thing

When I look at the top performers on the list I note that the vast majority either play on a top 5 rated defense and/or play with a first team all pro player. The 2 on the top 10 who do not are Archuleta (STL) and Nelson (JAX). Of course, Taylor is gone.

by jpheff on Jan 31, 2009 7:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Well that certainly helps each player, but it’s not exactly an end-all to the analysis. Isn’t it possible that there’s a reciprocal effect – that the safeties on the list being so good helped their defenses be so good, or helped the All-Pro players become All-Pro? In the case of Reed and Polamalu, I’m certain that’s the case. Yeah, they’ve had help, but they’re also helping as well.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Feb 1, 2009 8:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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