State of the Bills Roster: Defensive Ends

by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 1:45 PM EST in Events Comment 95 comments

Can Schobel still contribute in '09? (buffalobills.com)

The "State of the Bills Roster" series trucks on! If you're new around these parts within the past nine months or so, this series is an off-season progression of posts in which we'll break down Buffalo's roster in-depth. From these discussions, we'll put together a "Community Needs List" in priority order, then begin researching potential free agent and draft acquisitions that will satisfy all of the Bills' needs as we perceive them.

Hey - at least this way, we're doing the job right. Right? Unlike a certain front office we're forced to support.

And now, we continue our foray into heavy-duty off-season work at Buffalo Rumblings. It's our "State of the Roster" series, off-season mode, and we'll continue the discussions by breaking down the Bills' situation at defensive end - arguably the team's biggest weakness. This discussion should be fun....
Previous installments: QB :: RB :: TE :: WR :: OT :: G/C
New: Prioritized Offensive Needs List

Opening statement
When was the last time the Buffalo Bills had a consistent, aggressive, athletically gifted pass rush? You'd have to go back to the mid-to-late 1990s, when Hall of Fame nominee Bruce Smith and linebacker Bryce Paup were wreaking havoc on opposing backfields. Since then, Buffalo has statistically had some good pass rushers - Aaron Schobel chief among them - but the lack of a difference-maker at this position is painfully apparent. This, folks, is the weakest point not just of Buffalo's defense, but perhaps of its entire team.

#94 Aaron Schobel (starter)
6'4", 243 pounds
Age: 32 in September 2009
Contract status: 4 years remaining (UFA after 2012); owed $37.525M in base salaries, $9.525M of which is guaranteed.
- Schobel missed three-quarters of Buffalo's 2008 campaign with a Lisfranc foot injury that couldn't heal in time for the season's stretch run. At age 32, Schobel - once a double-digit sack machine despite being a dominant pass rushing force - is thought to be slowing down significantly. He's still a guy who gives maximum effort on every play and can pick up sacks with that approach, and he's improved tremendously against the run during his career. However, he was never, in reality, a guy to build a defense around, and he's definitely not that player now. My take: Schobel can still contribute - and he'd better, considering the money he's owed - but the talent around him needs a complete face lift.

#90 Chris Kelsay (starter)
6'4", 261 pounds
Age: 30 in October 2009
Contract status: 2 years remaining (UFA after 2010); owed $6.7M in base salaries.
- Ah, yes. Everyone's favorite whipping boy. Kelsay is what he is - an effort defensive end and a solid locker room guy that's limited athletically. He'll never be a difference-maker for a defense, particularly now that he's entering the stretch run of his career. His contract is no longer an issue; he only has two years remaining on the deal at relatively modest salaries. If the Bills want to cut a defensive end in order to bring in some talent at the position, Kelsay should - and likely will be - at the top of their list.

#92 Ryan Denney
6'7", 264 pounds
Age: 32 in June 2009
Contract status: 1 year remaining (UFA after 2009); owed $2.4M in base salaries.
- Denney has long been lumped into the Chris Kelsay Category in terms of defensive ends amongst the Bills fan base; that should no longer be the case after Denney's solid 2008 season. Filling in for an injured Schobel, Denney became one of Buffalo's best run defenders, consistently stopping rushers in the backfield, and also tied for the team lead in sacks with four. Clearly, Denney isn't a starter in this league, but as a rotational guy, he has a lot of value. With only one year left on his deal, it's perfectly acceptable to make him a part of the team's plans at the position, particularly because his size gives the team some scheme flexibility as well.

#96 Copeland Bryan
6'4", 240 pounds
Age: 26 in July 2009
Contract status: Undisclosed.
- Bryan was one of just a few surprise additions to Buffalo's opening day roster last fall, and we could have done worse than him, believe me. Still, he's a fringe player with only near-sufficient athleticism, and he's certainly not the pass rush threat we need. He'll stay with the team for training camp competition; if he's counted on for more than that, we're in serious trouble.

#93 Chris Ellis
6'5", 267 pounds
Age: 24 in February 2009
Contract status: 3 years remaining (UFA after 2011); owed $1.41M in base salaries, with another $695K achievable through incentives.
- Ellis was arguably Buffalo's most disappointing rookie in 2008. Buffalo's need at defensive end was dire last off-season too (just ask Kurupt), and Ellis, by default, was the response to that need. He was inactive for much of the season, ineffective when he got onto the field, and ended the season on IR. His work ethic and motivation have been openly questioned as far back as his rookie training camp. One season is far too early to give up on any rookie, but counting on Ellis as a contributor in 2009 is incredibly risky business.

The Breakdown
Keepers: Schobel, Denney, Ellis. Schobel's contract dictates he'll be back; hopefully, he can still contribute. Denney is a solid reserve, and Ellis still has potential, though there are enough question marks to outweigh that potential at this point.

Extendables: Yeah, definitely none here.

Expendables: Kelsay, Bryan. I highly doubt I'm going to get much heat for putting these two guys here.

Questionables: None.

Goners: None.

What we need: I think this one's pretty obvious - we need a pass rusher. Also, less apparently but just as critical, we need <em>youth</em> here. Schobel, Kelsay and Denney will all be at least 30 next season.I like effort defensive ends and hustle guys just as much as Dick Jauron, but now is the time for the Bills to add an actual athlete - or, better yet, two actual athletes - to the mix at this position. Unless the Bills can find a consistent pass rush, we've essentially reached our potential defensively - middle of the pack statistically with few big plays. Everything revolves around the pass rush. Help is swiftly needed here.

That's it. I'm done with the easy stuff. Now it's on you, folks. Should the Bills look to add multiple athletes at this position? Can we count on a rookie to solve our pass rush woes? Have any names of potential additions you'd like to throw into the ring? Have fun with this, and let's get brainstorming.

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Comments

Kelsay is a captain

Something that’s not mentioned a lot about him as a locker room and leader type of guy. Does Poz step up and take that leadership role?

by MattRichWarren on Jan 8, 2009 1:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not saying that should stop the Bills form jetting him loose.

by MattRichWarren on Jan 8, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

JP was once a captain too….

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

true,

but never as great a “locker room guy” as Kelsay supposedly is.

by MattRichWarren on Jan 8, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, I can catch people's jocks just as well as Kelsay, can I have a multi-million dollar contract too?

Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?

by WABillsfan on Jan 9, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

why poz?

why not kyle williams? or stroud? or whitner? or mitchell?

doesn't buy posluzny.

by JPH on Jan 11, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wondered about this one too

I think Jauron is too nice to let Kelsay go. He is a leader in the locker room, and is close to many players and even Bills ex-players. They don’t have the balls to let him go.

Even though Denney is more productive and Ellis has potential upside.

I like a round 1 DE pick. Everette Brown looks like a beast.

by bruuuuce_02 on Jan 8, 2009 2:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

ya see

this is what bugs me about the whole take a TE in the first round jazz. A quick look at the unrestricted free agent DEs who could actually help us:

Julius Peppers – likely to resign in CAR too expensive anyway
Bertrand Berry – likely to test market, would be immediate upgrade
Kevin Carter – he is going to be 35. Way too old
Terrell Suggs- debatable if he can be an effective DE for us

Of this list Bertrand Berry looks like the best call. Well if we don’t get him that means we better get one in the draft. How can people be clamoring for Gresham in round 1 when defensive end and center need to be addressed far more urgently.

If we can somehow trade back into the end of round one, which would only require us to move up around 12 draft spots maybe 15 from our second round pick we can likely nab Mack and take one of these guys with pick 11:

Orakpo – can overpower and finesse his way past blockers. The guy can bench 500+ and squat 600+.
Brown – best pure speed rusher in the draft
Maybin – strong and fast
Johnson – probably the best first step and burst out of the four off the line

Too tell you guys the truth, I think defensive end is going to be the toughest position for us to address with the lack of FAs and quality draftees after round 1 and early 2. The ideal fit for me would be a good veteran center, defensive round 1 (ORAKPO!) and Chase Coffman round 2

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 2:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Who’s bringing up TE in the first? You’re not hearing it from me, anyways. :)

You’re exactly right that DE is going to be the hardest to fill. Why? Because there are 31 other teams that need DE, too.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

really?

I was under the impression that you were hinting at a Gresham in the first round? I guess I was mistaken

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wrong guy

I would take Gresham at #11 as of now….talk to me in 3.5 months tho. The only way tho is if we did sign a guy like berry, a vet center, and then got a DE in round 2. I just love what a guy like Gresham would do to our offense. So many possibilities. We have hardly any playmaking receivers. We desperately need one. But I am well aware and conscientious of our DE/C/LB needs. I won’t be too mad how we go about our needs, as long as a pass-catching TE is addressed no later than round 3.

MARVelous

by MARVelous on Jan 8, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ah should have known it was you Marv...

I actually think a pass catching TE can be made a possibility but I think it all has to start with the resigning of Crowell. I don’t trust our front office to make more then two major free agent signings (and I only think 2 because Ralph promised a splash). To afford to take a TE I think we would have to have DE/C/OLB all taken care of. We have Crowell right here so keep him and then grab Berry and Birk. The only other way I would be for taking a TE at 11 is signing Berry, signing Crow (or Vilma), and then trading back up to get Mack

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

the other thing

is that I know we need a DE, C, LB, etc. But I just am so sick of the trotting out Evans, Reed, Parrish, Royal. It pisses me off quite frankly and that we now have this Edwards guy maybe a franchise QB, and we really don’t have the weapons to help him. I want to give him every opportunity to succeed and that’s why I’m leaning towards Gresham. I would love to see a DE come in and get 7-8 sacks and motivate our other DE’s to get better but it also scares the beejeesus out of me that we have a DE come in and do nothing. I firmly believe we need a 5 DE rotation. We have to do that with an aging Schobel. The inner-circle has to cut one of our dead-beat DE’s. How do they cut Kelsay? DJ won’t do that. So that makes me wish for a big time DE, rest Kelsay/Schobel & Denny more to keep them fresh and maybe that enhances our pass-rush more than we would think?

MARVelous

by MARVelous on Jan 8, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don’t get me wrong, I like Jermaine Gresham. I also like several defensive ends, Alex Mack and a couple of linebackers, too. Oh, and Taylor Mays.

Did I mention there’s a lot of talent at the top of this draft?

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

so lets trade up and get more of the action!!

forget rounds 2 and 3 then. Keep Crowell, bring in Lorenzo Neal or Anderson, sign Birk for center or Berry or Suggs for DE and then just trade up and draft the other two needs.

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's a lot of first and second tier free agents

How’s that look cash to the cap? :-)

by MattRichWarren on Jan 8, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

is it?

Crowell shouldn’t cost too much coming off an injury and a one year deal for Neal or Anderson probably won’t be too bad at their age (plus they are fullbacks).

All that leaves is one major deal to be given to either Birk or Berry (or Suggs). I think we can afford to make one major splash and give a new deal to Peters.

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd be OK with this

resigning Crowell
Singing Neal or Richardson
Then going after Birk or Berry/Suggs then drafting the other spot.

by MattRichWarren on Jan 8, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i just hope we can afford Peters!

he better not try to price his way out of Buffalo!

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You forget

we have been promised a “Big Splash”.

"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"

by Joe P. on Jan 8, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Turds make splashes too!!!!

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You forgot the quote marks :-)

"The Bills have no playoff aspirations"

by Joe P. on Jan 8, 2009 11:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Negative. This is a deep draft all around; I’d rather get more of those guys than less. Trade down, not up.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Amen!

I really feel that depending on which way we go in FA will dictate what we do in the draft. If we get a vet C and DE and even LB in FA, I think the Bills would be HUGE fools to not fall back once, maybe twice in the draft to maximize the amount of picks we get. This draft will be VERY deep due to all the Juniors coming out this year.

Btw, who thinks Beanie Wells is an idiot? He should stick around another year in Ohio State since he can’t stay healthy. He ain’t going higher than round 3, no one is stupid enough to pick him higher (the Bills will now draft him with their 2nd Rounder because I said this, damn!)

Now if only this gopher could play DE, we would be doing better, I mean, who couldn't play better than the corpse brothers Kelsay and Denney?

by WABillsfan on Jan 9, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Who is Anderson?

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

jeez im sorry

I meant Tony Richardson. I don’t know why I kept typing Anderson. Maybe I was thinking about Mike Anderson? Weird. Richardson will be a free agent

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

haha

OK. I just had no idea who you were talking about. Maybe Deon Anderson, the Cowboys FB or Derek Anderson, but I would never have guessed Tony Richardson!!!!

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

haha

I’m still trying to figure out how I could have gotten them confused. Racking my brain to see where the two names in my memory files could have become one. Where they both fullbacks for the Broncos at some point in their careers? There has to be a connection or I’m just insane!

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You’re not a hardcore NASCAR fan, are you? Tony Anderson

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

no no not a NASCAR fan

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 9, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Anderson was a Broncos guy

Richardson was with the Chiefs for years…. same division :-)

by MattRichWarren on Jan 9, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well there ya go

thanks for that

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 9, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: "Did I mention there’s a lot of talent at the top of this draft?

So completely agreed….

by krytime on Jan 9, 2009 12:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

derp

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

In theory 22 other teams, the other 9 are 3-4 defenses that look much bigger DE types like Tyson Jackson or tweener DE’s that could be rusher OLBs

BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13

by keysh67 on Jan 9, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Terrell Suggs- debatable if he can be an effective DE for us

I’m not sure if that is debatable. Suggs plays with a hand on the ground a decent amount of the time and is super effective when they go into nickel or dime and he plays that classic DE spot. He was a superstar DE in college. What is debatable is how likely (or unlikely) it is that he actually makes it to FA.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

can he play the run?

I’m gonna venture that we need an every down kind of guy. Kelsay might get cut and that would leave a Denney/Suggs rotation in that case. Actually…..now that I think about that could work nicely….

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

actually no

we don’t have enough depth because Ellis hasn’t proven anything and Copeland is what he is. Back to original question, can he play the run consistently?

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well if we are looking for a DE who can play the run and pass, then we might as well not even bother taking one in this draft with all the undersized edge rushers. I don’t think Suggs would excel at handling the run. He would probably get pushed around some by tackles and would end up out of position sometimes well trying to pass rush on run plays, but he is a great tackler and is really good in pursuit. I think he would be alright in run support. At least good enough that you can overlook any deficiencies because he is such an elite pass rushing threat.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

another good point you raise

which is the biggest reason why I am hesitant for a DE in round 1 is that all these guys have the size of 3-4 OLB edge rushers. Check this out:

Orakpo: 6-3, 255
Brown: 6’4, 252
Maybin: 6’4, 240
Selvie: 6’4, 245
Hardy: 6’5, 255

The only guys who seem to have true DE size that could go early are Johnson (6’7, 260) and Jackson (6’4, 295)

If we were to grab Suggs, we’d need a hell of an OLB behind him

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Your namesake perhaps?

by MattRichWarren on Jan 8, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought Orakpo was listed at 260 and he should play around there in the pros. So he doesn’t have great size, but I think its adequate.

I bet Hardy weighs at least 260 come combine time and probably plays in the 265 range in the NFL. I think he is a true 4-3 DE.

I think Johnson could end up playing at 270 and will at least get to the 265 range. I like him much more than most do.

Suggs isn’t all that small himself though. He weighs 260 and Kelsay at 261 and Denney at 264 aren’t exactly bigger than he is. He wouldn’t be bad in run support and I think he could physically handle the task, I think it is more of a mindset of those pass rushers who need a good jump off the snap and love to speed rush around the tackle that causes DEs like Suggs or Brown or Selvie or whoever to struggle sometimes.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why do you like Johnson so much? Is it his potential? I see a guy who has a major effort issue and that’s what really scares me away….

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ve seen Gerogia Tech play a few games this year and I havn’t noticed him taking any plays off or any other effort related issues. If he isn’t a hard worker at practice or in the weight room or anything like that, then its a different story. I havn’t ever read anything specific about him not being a high effort guy, just that effort is an issue. He has been a special teams superstar so that should tell you that he does have some hustle in him.

I think a lot of people see him fail to recognize plays which is his biggest problem and they think that he is taking them off. He regularly doesn’t read run play and is so quick off the snap that by the time he realizes its a run he has already taken himself out of position by shooting out wide to get around the tackle.

He is the fastest DE off the snap at his size (or maybe any size) that I have ever seen play college football. His frame is perfect for DE with the height and ridiculous long arms and huge hands. I know he hasn’t been super productive, but his productivity as a pass rusher and run stopper have gone up considerably a few years in a row.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If you see no effort issues with Johnson then I’d change my mind on him. He has only played the position – what two years? Not very long. He has ridiculously long arms and will bat many passes away. He needs some good coaching and playing time.

everything goes better with a BIG MACK

by keuka121 on Jan 8, 2009 7:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I havn’t noticed effort related things, but I’m no scout. If the legit scouts that I trust say that he has effort issues then I will probably change my mind on him.

I just don’t buy into what the “hey I love the draft so I’m gonna start my own website and write my own scouting reports and do my own mock draft” guys say about anything.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m leery of raw players, even if they have the potential to be great. If effort isn’t an issue, shouldn’t we question his production a bit. A guy that athletically gifted and that big should be dominating. Failing to recognize plays is pretty worrisome. Who knows if that would ever come?

If experience is his major hurdle and it looks like he’d really become a good player, just in time, I wouldn’t be opposed to him. I just have a problem getting behind guys who have struggled to put up numbers in college….

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I totally understand why people don’t like him and I can’t really make a major argument for him other than that in the NFL you need a couple incredible players, guys who are one of the best in their position to really be a Super Bowl type team and I think Michael Johnson has the potential to be the best player in this draft and one of the very best players in the entire league. Depending on who is and isn’t there at 11, I would maybe draft him and maybe wouldn’t, but I would pretty excited to role the dice on him.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That’s why I like Everette Brown so much. Lightning first step, ability to add some more strength/weight, has actual pass rush moves, great college production….Plus, how many 6’7"255-260 lb guys ever have much success? I’ll take 6’4", 260 lbs with a lower center of gravity…

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well if you are assuming that Brown is going to add some weight then you have to assume that Johnson can as well. And there are probably about as many 6’6’’, 270 pound guys who are successful as there are 6’4’’, 260 types, so good point K.

by kaisertown on Jan 9, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Schobel weighs 243. I would draft a 175-pound defensive end if it means we could finally pressure opposing quarterbacks.

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by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Schobel weighs 243 now. But he has lost all that weight as he worked his butt off in the weight room and thinned down to keep his quickness. He weighed 263 pounds as a 22 year old kid coming out of college. Someone that young who weighs 243 pounds is going to get thrown around like a rag doll against NFL tackles.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sure, but if we’re drafting a guy, is it smart to count on him as an every-down guy anyways? I have no problem with Schobel and Denney playing run downs next year. We only need an end for passing plays.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No it isn’t smart to draft a guy and count him as an every down guy at DE. I’m the guy who wants to draft Michael Johnson so I’m obviously not thinking that the Bills need to get a guy to come in and start. I do want to draft a guy who will eventually be an every down guy though. I don’t care about winning at all next year (maybe a little) so picking a guy who best fits Buffalo’s short term needs like a one dimensional edge rusher isn’t the best plan in my opinion. Maybe guys like Selvie and Brown can have success against the run as they get stronger and maybe they can get better as pass rusher who can bull rush or make inside moves, but I doubt either of those guys will ever excel at anything other than using their speed and rushing around the tackle and getting after the QB.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

nice

I would draft a 175-pound defensive end if it means we could finally pressure opposing quarterbacks.

by MattRichWarren on Jan 9, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

Suggs would be a huge upgrade for us, no question in my mind. He also would bring leadership & most important of all is that he’d bring a level of aggression that is missing on our Defense.

I agree that the chances of us even making a run for him are probably slim to none!

BEAST MODE, During the week plan on it & on game day thrive on it!
GO BILLS!
Section 336 Row 13

by keysh67 on Jan 9, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Since then, Buffalo has statistically had some good pass rushers

i’m glad you mentioned “statistically” Brian – because as far as Schobel, I think that most of his sacks are “junk” sacks or sacks when games are already out of reach for one team.

I don’t know how they go into this offseason thinking good about this position. It has to be blown up. Keep maybe two – start fresh – this unit is not very good at all.

Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider

by J2 on Jan 8, 2009 2:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

It’s so hard to disagree with DE being our most important need, especially when your debate against that position is TE. I don’t know that drafting a TE is what we need, but I am extremely concerned about Edwards development. In saying that here is my argument; I would rather draft a TE in the first round to give Edwards an opportunity at being our future, than draft a DE to give us double digit sacks and have to find a QB – again.

by Buffalonian on Jan 8, 2009 2:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

either way

I can live. If we draft a top 2 DE, #1 TE, or #1 LB I can live. Its what we do after #11 pick that counts. We always focus so much on the 1st round but we need impact from the first 3 rounds to help our team next year. So let’s hope OBD can do that

MARVelous

by MARVelous on Jan 8, 2009 3:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Scary picture...

They obviously need some help here, but I think trying to bring in one athlete/difference maker is the way to go. Realistically, at such a coveted position I find it hard to believe they could go out in one offseason and get 2 new starters here.

Get one, hope that Ellis blossoms, and maybe more than anything hope that Schobel can at least bounce back to the 8 to 10 sack mark. I’m sure he’ll never be a 12-14 guy again, but they missed him quite a bit when he was out this year.

Whether or not you think Schobel’s sacks come in garbage time…he’s still the closest player on the defense to somebody that has to be game planned for. Also, on a defense that sorely lacks big play ability, Schobel is one of the league’s best at forcing fumbles. He had 5 of them in 2007. Denney has 5 in his CAREER, Kelsay 4 in his CAREER. Just gotta cross our fingers and hope Schobel is somewhere close to the player he was a couple years back.

by Make a play Whitner on Jan 8, 2009 3:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

In an effort to not sound like I am criticizing your point, I must say; even if Schobel does return to a glimmer of what he was a couple of years ago, it still leaves us with a non impact player. In my opinion and I know I will get ridiculed for saying this, Denney is the better all around DE. That’s how truly ineffective I think Schobel is.

by Buffalonian on Jan 8, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

WHAT??????

just because Schobel has been hurt doesn’t mean we can erase all the sacks he got us over the last 5 to 7 years

Kawika Mitchell is a leader. He will help this young team develop.

by poz on Jan 8, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I understand Buff’s point, with Denny being more effective stopping runs, but he goes a tad too far. In a 4-3, a BIG part of a DE’s job description is pressuring the QB. In that huge role, there is a sizeable gap between Schobel and Denny. The tall man does a good job of batting down some passes though. With that said, I’m not sure Schobel of 2009 will return to pre-injury form. Certainly a big DE FA signing will extend his usefulness to the team as the Bills will need someone to game plan against…and it won’t be Aaron and it never was Ryan.

"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban

by NJBill on Jan 8, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Are you kidding me? Did you watch Schobel play before the injury? If you did you were the only one because he wasn’t doing anything to watch. Schobel has been playing 20-25 pounds below his effective weight and has never been the same since he started playing in the 240 lb range. No Denney isn’t as good as Schobel was 4 years ago, but I would argue he is better than him right now. Especially with the injury.

by Buffalonian on Jan 8, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So I am clear...

You’re saying Denney is the best all-around DE on the team.

by MattRichWarren on Jan 8, 2009 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes. I actually think Schobel is that much of a non factor.

by Buffalonian on Jan 8, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Denney?

Schobel is as good against the run as Denney is, and probably better. He’s also a much better pass rusher than Denney, even though he’s still not all that good.

Schobel>>>Denney
Denney>>Kelsay
Kelsay>>No One

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kelsay >> Ellis....

urgh….

by MattRichWarren on Jan 8, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kelsay>>No One

haha

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

no, he is not as good against the run, let alone better.

by Buffalonian on Jan 8, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL well, that’s your opinion, isn’t it? Throw some stats our way to convince us otherwise. Otherwise, merely saying he’s better proves nothing…

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by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

well statistically they are both terrible the last couple of years, and of course it would be difficult to prove with stats. Yes, it is just my opinion. But don’t you agree watching the games that Denney did a bit more than Schobel? And now with the injury, Schobel’s obvious lack of production after the loss of weight, and his age; I believe Denney right now is the better DE. I don’t think you can make an overwhelming argument that Schobel is significantly better, if anything you can rely on his play 3 years ago and say he is more productive.

by Buffalonian on Jan 8, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ll agree to the fact that Denney was more noticeable in run defense; he makes more plays in the backfield than I ever saw Schobel put together.

But run defense is still about consistency. Denney made some bad plays this year in Run D, too. Schobel is probably our most consistent run defender when healthy.

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by Brian Galliford on Jan 9, 2009 6:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know if I've ever mentioned it

but I would really like to upgrade the DE position.

It’s been such a sore spot for so long, and now with aging players, we need an infusion of youth and talent more than ever. Production would be nice too.

In my super long post I mentioned my desire to add Bertrand Berry. I still want that, but by no means is that “solving” our problem. Adding a soon to be 34 year old DE is NOT going to fix the bigger problem. Yes, he will help in the short term and would allow us to cut the dead weight (Kelsay), but we absolutely HAVE to address the problem of the lack of talent and youth at DE. That’s why I want Berry to replace Kelsay AND Everette Brown to add pass rushing talent, youth and a future at the position for us. If we sign Berry and maybe bring in a mid round DE, we’re still going to be looking at the same EXACT problems next offseason.

And for those of you who downplay the need for a DE, read this article comparing the Saints to the past SB winners. How about this:

Quarterback sacks don’t tell the whole story, but it gives you some measure on how much you influence the chemistry of an opponent’s passing game.

Just think about the 2008 season of New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady. After having a record-breaking regular season with 50 touchdown passes and eight interceptions in 578 attempts, Brady was influenced by constant pressure from the front-seven of the Giants. The Giants’ defense sacked Brady five times and had seven additional quarterback pressures in their 17-14 win.

Couldn’t agree more. If we want to improve our D and really give ourselves the chance to be good in the long run, the pass rush needs to be addressed. As for those SB winners:

— 2007 — New York Giants, 21.9 points per game; 52 sacks

— 2006 — Indianapolis Colts, 22.5 points per game; 24 sacks

— 2005 — Pittsburgh Steelers, 16.1 points per game; 47 sacks

— 2004 — New England Patriots, 16.2 points per game; 45 sacks

— 2003 — New England Patriots, 14.9 points per game; 41 sacks

— 2002 — Tampa Bay Buccaneers, 12.2 points per game; 43 sacks

— 2001 — New England Patriots, 17.0 points per game; 39 sacks

— 2000 — Baltimore Ravens, 10.3 points per game; 35 sacks

— 1999 — St. Louis Rams, 15.1 points per game; 57 sacks

—1998 — Denver Broncos, 19.3 points per game; 47 sacks

Other than the Colts, who had the great O, and I suppose the Ravens, who only allowed 10 ppg, getting to the QB is essential to winning. Duh, haha. The Colts also still had top rushers in Freeney and Mathis, so it’s not like they couldn’t get pressure. The Bills on the other hand, can’t do anything to influence the QB, other than making him uncomfortable by giving him TOO MUCH time.

Until the pass rusher problem is solved, I will be pushing for a major overhaul and improvement in talent at the position. Consider yourselves fair warned.

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Jan 8, 2009 4:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

its impossible to deny the effect that pressuring the QB has on the outcome of a game. this is probably the second most important thing a team can possibly do to win in the NFL and maybe even the most important other than QB.

get consistent and effective pressure on the QB and our team vaults into the top 10 or top 5 in the league. its that simple.

good stats on the super bowl winners – your right about the Colts – they might not have the sacks – but boy do they pressure the QB into hurrying their throws and just generally getting them uncomfortable.

Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider

by J2 on Jan 8, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

oh – K – i’m in the “blow that whole position up” camp. maybe keep one guy, maybe. peace out the rest of you

Maybe now you'll never slime a guy with a positron collider

by J2 on Jan 8, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

WHAT?!?!

you want a DE? i kid….

i feel yah, i feel yah. It has to happen if we are going to have a dominant defense. I’m all for it if it shakes out that way. I just hope that they don’t go with a 4-man DE rotation. Get creative and give guys rest so they can be fresh. Giants keep 5 DE’s even witout Osi. Tuck, McDougle, Wynn, Kiwanuka, and Tollefson along with 3 DT’s in Cofield, Robbins and Alford.

I’d like to see: DT’s – Stroud, Williams, S. Johnson DE: Schobel, Bertrand Berry, Denny, Ellis, #11 or 2nd round pick

MARVelous

by MARVelous on Jan 8, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I was looking around for info like that and while I don’t have time to go back and type up the list it is something like every Super Bowl winning team has had a double digit sack guy for like 10 or 12 straight years. Except maybe Freeney missed some games and only had 8 or something like that.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

im partial

to copeland bryan as 2 years ago I stay in a “extended stay american suites” hotel which Bryan stayed at and I chatted with him for a few mins in the hotel lobby. Pretty funny. Great guy, not so great pass rusher

MARVelous

by MARVelous on Jan 8, 2009 4:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Jeremy Maclin

Is the guy we need in the first round. It’s funny when people say we need a veteran receiver. We have a veteran receiver named Lee Evans. We just need another playmaker.

We can’t afford a veteran playmaker like Houshmanzadeh. So, we have a shot at getting one of the best playmakers in college football in Maclin.

This would mean that we either HAVE to sign a free agent DE, or pick up another 1st round pick. The only way we can do that is to trade Peters or trade up. Thoughts?

by bruuuuce_02 on Jan 8, 2009 5:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

We don’t need another rookie receiver, though I get your playmaker argument.

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by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

he's done a good job leading us to 7-9 seasons

doesn't buy posluzny.

by JPH on Jan 11, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Although

Gresham is borderline worthy of that #11 pick. We’ll have to watch that guy closely tonight.

by bruuuuce_02 on Jan 8, 2009 5:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

DE and draft.

I think Orakpo would be a great first round pick followed by Mack or Unger, whoever is still ther in round two and then we have to go back into round two for a TE. We should do this no matter what happens in FA unless we sign Peppers. Fat chance.

Wood

by rwwrodeo on Jan 8, 2009 6:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Keep Kelsay maybe

And just get someone to start in his stead while keeping him as a reserve. That is one avenue. However, with his lack of production, you could get a rookie and a very good vet to do better.

Who are other DEs who make the same $ as Kelsay?

The Bills CAN win every game

by killascript on Jan 8, 2009 6:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I just hope...

That locker room leadership presence doesn’t keep the Bills from cutting Royal and Kelsay. Leadership should be secondary to talent, which both of them have very little of. I guess the cutting of Triplet gives hope to the idea, but a part of me fears that these guys are Dick Jauron guys and he’ll try to keep them around.

Don't forget to pay the troll toll...

by evdawg419 on Jan 8, 2009 7:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Leadership should be secondary to talent

I think talent breeds confidence, toughness and leadership. I agree that keeping a player because the other guys look up to him off the field is a stupid idea.

by kaisertown on Jan 8, 2009 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and it's not like we're the pats

maybe he makes good jokes in the locker room, but he’s the leader of a 7-9 football team. his leadership doesnt seem to translate to wins.

doesn't buy posluzny.

by JPH on Jan 11, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The thing that immediately sticks out to me is the age of our vaunted top three. We may have to address this position for the next couple of years. Mabye more.

everything goes better with a BIG MACK

by keuka121 on Jan 8, 2009 7:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

If There Was One Position The Bills Could Upgrade

that could vault them into a contender, DE is that position. The Front Office has put this team in a financial box by GROSSLY OVERPAYING our current DE’s. The Front Office needs to own up to it’s mistake and get this team some DE’s that can play.

by gjv on Jan 8, 2009 7:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

We only have one grossly overpaid defensive end – Schobel.

None of us may believe that Kelsay and Denney were worth their deals, but really, those deals are pretty modest.

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by Brian Galliford on Jan 8, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Porter

Porter got 5 years 32 mil, 20 guaranteed. That’s 6.4 per year

Kelsay got 4 years 23 mil, 13 guaranteed. That’s 5.7 per year

I’d say Kelsay is overpaid.

by Buffalonian on Jan 8, 2009 9:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ugh

The “Big 3” are really getting over the football hill, if you will.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 9, 2009 7:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

denney made some plays against the run

but how many times did opponents run reverses around his side because he doesnt ever contain the backside of runs…
i remember it quite a few times. anyone else?

doesn't buy posluzny.

by JPH on Jan 11, 2009 6:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs