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Identifying the core of the Buffalo Bills' roster

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Welcome, Buffalo Bills fans, to yet another "coping with disastrous football" post. The Bills, as I'm sure you're aware, lost 41-17 on the road to the Tennessee Titans yesterday; the loss puts the Bills at 3-6 under Dick Jauron for the first time since 2006, Jauron's first season in Buffalo. The players have been awful, the coaching staff is officially in "play out the string" territory, and that broad, sweeping change that fans have called for since December of 2008 is probably coming after seven weeks are up.

As brutal as it may be to watch the Bills during that two-month stretch, there's still plenty we can learn. The front office and the coaching staff will probably have new faces come next February. (Read that as me being hopeful on the former, and realistic on the latter.) But in all likelihood, many of the faces you currently see on game days will still be donning red, white and blue in 2010 and beyond.

This post is the first of a three-part series in which we'll attempt to segment the Bills' roster up to accurately pinpoint where change is not only most-needed, but most likely. Up first for discussion: those Bills players who are likely to be in Buffalo far longer than many of their teammates. After the jump, you'll find three groups of these players, as well as your task for the comments section. Here's hoping you find the discussion therapeutic.

Star-divide

Criteria
In order to qualify for this first group of players, one must have a contract that has at least three years remaining on it at the start of the 2010 season; in other words, all of these players are locked up in Buffalo through either 2013 or 2014. That qualifies 19 players for this list, but we'll only discuss 17. Sorry, fans of Nic Harris and Ellis Lankster, but your guys are fringe prospects and all too easy to release at any point, particularly under the employ of a new decision-making hierarchy.

The unknown status of the Collective Bargaining Agreement and the possible free agency rules changes has little to no effect on this list. All veterans that have been in the league for a number of years remain unchanged, while the young players on the list (four years or less of experience) will only see the status of their free agency change (from unrestricted to restricted), likely increasing their time in Buffalo, in most cases.

We've split these 17 players into three groups: the veteran core, the youth core, and the vets whose roles would be dependent on how a new decision-making hierarchy attempted to address the team's bigger issues.

The veteran core (7 players)
These are players whose contracts meet the above criteria and who are veterans, either age-wise or experience-wise, with established reputations across the league. They are all players that have significant roles with the team, as well, and would likely hold onto significant roles, at least initially, in a regime change. These players will likely be the heart and soul of Bills football for the next few years.

  • Fred Jackson, RB - Signed through 2013. Cheap, versatile player who leaves everything on the field and makes plays.
  • Lee Evans, WR - Signed through 2013. Is proving this season that he can make big plays when he has help.
  • Aaron Schobel, DE - Signed through 2014. On the down side of his career, but can still produce, and is very consistent.
  • Marcus Stroud, DT - Signed through 2013. Again, on the down side, but still a more-than-capable starter in a 4-3.
  • Kawika Mitchell, LB - Signed through 2013. If he can start at LB on a Super Bowl champion, he can do it in Buffalo, too.
  • Terrence McGee, CB - Signed through 2014. Has enjoyed a consistent, successful career at a premium position.
  • Brian Moorman, P - Signed through 2013. Still an excellent punter and a fantastic teammate/community member.

The youth core (6 players)
These players meet the above criteria contract-wise, but carry far less established professional resumes. These six players' development - or lack thereof - will have a critical effect on how a new regime will address future iterations of the Buffalo Bills, but for now, their status as Bills players worth building around remains intact.

  • Shawn Nelson, TE - Signed through 2013. Great physical talent in need of playing time. Minor injuries are concerning.
  • Andy Levitre, OG - Signed through 2013. Versatile, plays the game the right way. Inconsistent, makes too many errors.
  • Eric Wood, C - Signed through 2014. Listed as a center because that's where he belongs. Also inconsistent.
  • Aaron Maybin, DE - Signed through 2014. Like the pick or not, his potential still remains through the roof. Needs PT.
  • Leodis McKelvin, CB - Signed through 2013. Elite talent at premium position, but has had two disappointing seasons.
  • Jairus Byrd, S - Signed through 2013. Ceiling may be somewhat limited, but has proven he's an elite ball hawk.

Veterans awaiting roles (4 players)
Again, these players meet contractual criteria and should be in Buffalo for the foreseeable future. These players might not be guaranteed much in the way of starting positions or playing time, however, under a new regime.

  • Brad Butler, OT - Signed through 2013. Has been dependable as a starter, but is a major risk for injury every season.
  • Geoff Hangartner, G/C - Signed through 2013. Disappointing as a center, but hard to ignore versatility and experience.
  • Kyle Williams, DT - Signed through 2013. Again, dependable, but new staff might view him as only rotation-worthy.
  • Spencer Johnson, DT - Signed through 2013. See Williams. Probably sees PT, but DT might be an upgrade area.

Your task
That's it. 17 players who are probably going to be Bills for a while, split into three pretty-easy-to-define areas in terms of how new regimes will view them. Your task for the comments section: split all 17 of these names into starters and non-starters. That's it. Only list a name as a starter if you think they could start for a playoff-caliber football team. My guess is that, at least for this part of the series, opinions will be pretty universal. Have at it, folks.

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Here goes......

Im only gonna name folks who should be (non-starters) on this list.

Maybin, McKelvin, Hang, Spencer Johnson,

All the other folks should be starters IMO

Pass the chocolate cake!

by norcaliangelsfan on Nov 16, 2009 1:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

For me all except for Maybin, Hangman and Johnson could easily be starting on the Bills next year and I would have no problem with it.

I’d feel better about Hangartner if he was moved to Guard and Wood to Center.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 1:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

agree on the line switch,

this seems like a no-brainer , imo

The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ

by NYTXFAN on Nov 16, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I think some people are being a bit too hard on the Hangman. He was supposed to be a guard and with Wood/Levitre/Bell anchoring the rest I think he could be even a starting guard if they find a great Tackle in the draft.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For me all except for Maybin,

This kid has made a bad start on his career, he is not at the right position to most use his talent and suffers to comparison of who was out there when he was picked.Other than him (and if he is switched to LB even him we did not have such a bad draft. It all comes down to management and QB, they are like management as they have such a impact on where a team goes. great article , look forward to the rest. This is what we who have more exuberance than knowledge need.

by crazyoldman on Nov 17, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great idea for a post...

…the new GM is going to need this as a starting point.

Since I notice no QB on this list, I assume that is the number 1 need for this team.

by Buffalo66 on Nov 16, 2009 1:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Actually, it only means that no QB is signed through 2013 or 2014.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thank God.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Universal statement!?!?

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Nov 17, 2009 1:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and it means

that the Bills #1 need is QB. No doubt. I just don’t see any of the 2010 QB’s besides Locker being a Freeman, Ryan, Sanchez, Rodgers type player that the NFL has been infused with in the last 4 years.

MARVelous - "I went from America's team to North America's Team" Terrell Owens

by MARVelous on Nov 16, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Freeman and Sanchez are in the same class as Ryan or Rodgers? Quite frankly Rodgers, who is #4 in QB rating is superior to all of them. Nevertheless, the big problem with Locker is he isn’t very accurate. That can be blamed on bad receivers at UW and a bad offensive line, but generally quarterbacks that were rather inaccurate in college don’t get much better as a professional.

It'll be just you, me, and Peter Nincompoop.

by BeastMode on Nov 17, 2009 1:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

the big problem with Locker is he isn’t very accurate. That can be blamed on bad receivers at UW…

…minus Jermaine Kearse, IMO. That guy has mad skills.

mayhem project!
mb

by the Uncommon Denominator on Nov 17, 2009 1:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hang/Mitchell/Johnson/McKelvin: No

Maybin: Not at that position

Jackson: Won’t last long as a starter. He’s pretty dang old for a RB.

All others, good.

by quantumuprising on Nov 16, 2009 1:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He’s pretty dang old for a RB.

Old is subjective. Yeah, he’s going to be 29 at the start of the ‘10 season, but he’ll also have less than 500 career touches. He’s got plenty left in the tank.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

500 career touches…..in the nfl.

All told, he’s got a bunch more than that, he was a workhorse in the indoor leagues.

I’m not denying that he’s got a lot in the tank, but if you look across the board, its rare that the tank survives the beating it takes by age 30. father time is undefeated, especially for running backs.

by quantumuprising on Nov 16, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At a minimum, barring injury, he should be the same player he is now through the remainder of his contract. That’s another three years beyond this one. I don’t think that changes much if he sees more carries as a “starter,” because no matter what, NFL teams everywhere are using multiple backs now.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I see his career unfolding like that of Warrick Dunn

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 17, 2009 7:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Better yet, he could have the longevity and impact of someone like Kevin Faulk.

by jj24 on Nov 17, 2009 8:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love that. Faulk is the most annoying and threatening 3rd down back in the NFL, IMHO. Fred Ex would work wonderfully in that role.

Delightfully Ignoring The Truth since 1995.

by NeverendingOptimism on Nov 17, 2009 8:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Jackson was a young guy

Current Phinsider Feud Points: 23

Sparano: Joey Porter, What is best in life?

Porter: To crush The Jets, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of Mark Sanchez

by Patssuck456 on Nov 16, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, he’s definitely been around.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Vets, first group
All but Mitchell are starters in my opinion…
Mitchell is good as the 3rd best guy in the LB corps, and I also think he will be weak coming off injury, or at least could be.
Jackson, is an “on the fence guy” because he is deceivingly good. But as I think about it, he is a more durable and tough version of Brian Westbrook with less speed and quickness. I think we have him locked up for his prime years, and the next regime will be good for it.
Schoebel’s play has been a surprise, but he will be waning soon. Evans has to be getting open right? (he needs a vet QB) Stroud could be interesting as a 3-4 DE.

2nd group…
The whole group are starters, but I think McKelvin might have to get worked back in at a nickel role… his game needs to be more polished, and because of this season’s injury, he’ll have to ease back into the mental part of the game. AS Brian said, this year was a huge set back for his game.
I can see Maybin getting put at OLB in a 3-4 if that happens… the rest of the players are safe…. here’s hoping the OL gains some strength and watches a lot tape, and Nelson loses the headaches

3rd group —

None of these guys are guaranteed starters. Geoff and Brad give us some good OL depth if they don’t start, but with the line playing so bad as a whole, I wonder what is going on with the coaching in that area? I hope Butler comes back from injury…. he could go back to guard, Wood at center and draft a LT high, gettting Bell on the right and have Hangartner as a reserve in the middle… just one option.
Johnson might be a backup 3-4 DE, if we go that route, and Williams might be trade bait for a team in need of a 4-3 DT, or he could be our rotation DT/3-4 DE as well giving is some more versatility in terms of playcalling for whatever defense we go for. Whether my thoughts are miscalculated or not, I don’t see Williams as a starting DT for a team playing meaningful football in January

Good Luck With Your Firings Mr. Wilson….Go Bills!

by killascript on Nov 16, 2009 1:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree totally with your o-line analysis

I think the ideal situation would be:
Rookie LT-Levitre-Wood-Butler-Bell/Scott/Rookie RT (whoever wins the battle)

B-B-B-Byrd Byrd Byrd, Byrd is the Wyrd!"

by willgarr15 on Nov 16, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i thought naming mitchell to the core was generous as well.

by dav630 on Nov 16, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I could see williams as a 3-4 DE… might not be tall enough though. I just like his burst and motor.

Delightfully Ignoring The Truth since 1995.

by NeverendingOptimism on Nov 17, 2009 8:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What was Mitchell’s contract? I thought it was only three years. Did he have it extended, or was I just flat out wrong on the initial assumption?

by krytime on Nov 16, 2009 1:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He signed a 5-year, $17 million deal in March of 2008.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And to that, I should clarify this:

Above, “Signed through 2014” means that their last under-contract season is 2013, and “Signed through 2013” means that their last under-contract season is 2012.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Though i like Mitchell I think he would be great in a rotation or was the 3rd LB. So probably not a starter for me.
I like McKelvin’s athletic ability and would start on another team and will most likely start next year, but if he was traded for a decent pick, I wouldn’t be hurt.
I would really like to see Maybin just get thrown into the fire and start.
Williams and Johnson are both back ups.
Butler though he did okay at RT I think should be moved back to RG and Wood should move to C – and following that Hang is a career back up and thats where he should go…

I was born in Buffalo, and NO, it's not a suburb of New York City

by Ghetts on Nov 16, 2009 1:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

for me

Mitchell wasn’t performing at the level he exhibited with the Giants. After the serious injury, I don’t think he can regain that form.

Maybin needs some real coaching. Maybe we’ll see more of him through the remaining “string”. We should therefore we won’t.

Johnson is a reserve, as is Hang

by fansince60 on Nov 16, 2009 1:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think the issue with Mitchell here vs. the Giants

Is the lack of talent around him LBer wise and Dline wise. The Giants have some true horses up front to help keep him clean and he had other LBers who could cover for him when he made a mistake. He doesn’t have those advantages here.

As my mother once said, common sense isn't as common as it should be, I'm looking at you Fewell, common sense says to play UP on the line against the slant.

by WABillsfan on Nov 17, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jackson, Evans, Schobel, McGee, Moorman, Mitchell, and Byrd starting.

I think Nelson—and Maybin too, for that matter—could be starters in the league if they were used/coached correctly.

McKelvin pretty obviously has the talent, and I wouldn’t be shocked if he came out next year and really established himself as a top-tier NFL corner. However, it’s troubling when the most substantial praise you can muster about somebody entering his third NFL season is “he’s got lots of talent,” while the most noteworthy moment of his career thus far is fumbling away a game against a division rival. The undying cynic in me will predict that he’ll follow the lead of so many others and flower into an all-pro talent immediately after being traded or signed away from Buffalo.

I look at the rest of this list and cry softly into my keyboard. Then I think about how many of the guys I just mentioned would start for any of the playoff-bound teams this year, and I begin bawling. I have a very soggy keyboard.

by entelechy3 on Nov 16, 2009 1:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That’s only the most noteworthy moment of his career because you’re saying it is. I’ll still consider his great kickoff returns of last season to be his most noteworthy moments.

He only fumbled once and then was ruined by an injury for the rest of the season.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jackson – starter
Evans – starter
Schobel – starter
Stroud – starter
Mitchell – backup
McGee – starter
Moorman – always starting – QB,RB – whatever – the man gets it done

Butler, Williams, Hangartner are all backups – but good dependable backups.

Johnson – backup

Nelson, Maybin, McKelvin, Byrd, Levitre, Wood are all in need of good coaching and a years worth of playing in a system with good coaches. however – future looks bright

I use to root for a terrible team - now I just watch other football games and enjoy football again.

by J2 on Nov 16, 2009 1:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: article

I tried to come up with something like this too, but I gave up because the front 7 on D is too hard to predict since the identity of the coaching staff going forward isn’t known yet. I’m not sure that Schobel, Williams, Johnson, or Stroud fit into all defenses and they might have to be spun for late round draft picks this offseason if the scheme is radically different. I know this though: current personnel should not in anyway dictate the reconstruction effort. The new regime will get a grace period to do it right and the new GM (HAS to happen, Wilson) should choose his coach and scheme first and worry about the existing players under contract later. BLOW THIS THING UP.

Some thoughts:

Hangartner: I’d give him a shot at filling the 6th man role he was effective at in Carolina since his contract is reasonable. Wood needs to start at C.

Maybin: Give him a shot in camp, but don’t count on him even remotely. He hasn’t shown anything at all and if he is a bust like I’m guessing he is, he was somebody else’s mistake anyway.

McKelvin: He’s shown more than Maybin, but he didn’t look like a starting CB before he got hurt. I’d approach him like Maybin where you hope for the best, but expect little.

Mitchell: Like Posluszny, I’d expect him to get a shot in camp next year, but his days of being handed a starting job in the offseason have to be over. True competition (not a collection of 5th round picks and undrafted free agents) is needed at LB and long term, my guess is Buffalo needs 3-4 new starters depending on the scheme they run.

This roster is a mess. Aside from a few players in the secondary and likely improved play from Wood and Levitre going forward, the cupboard is bare. Blow it up. My guess is that by the start of the 2011 season, no more than 4-5 players from this roster will be suiting up in Buffalo. Press the fast forward button and thanks for the memories, Jauron, Modrak, Guy, etc.

by Port Royal on Nov 16, 2009 1:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I know this though: current personnel should not in anyway dictate the reconstruction effort.

That is, and never will be, completely true. You can make some changes based on scheme or player type preference, which is why a list like this is never completely set in stone, but for the vast majority of these players, they WILL be Bills for a while, and therefore necessarily effect the reconstruction effort.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/lineups.htm

Take a look at how quickly the 2005 Bills lineup morphed into the 2007 Bills lineup. If the best coaching staff available doesn’t want 228 pound linebackers and 240 pound defensive ends, the presence of the current personnel shouldn’t factor into hiring the guy. Do this thing right and don’t handcuff yourself in anyway in gettinmgb the right people in here to turn it around. Treat this team as an expansion team with a competitive adavantage of some real game day film to look at. Maybe you get lucky and a Marcus Stroud fits into what the new coach wants to do and that’s one less hole, but if not, it’s no big deal long term.

by Port Royal on Nov 16, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All of that: yes. Philosophically, I agree. But Ralph Wilson runs a tight ship, and particularly in the case of bigger, newer deals (Stroud specifically), that’s a tough deal to move given his age and his salary. For that reason, I think Stroud is a Bill for at least 1-2 more years, given that the team won’t eat all of that cap space.

Trades can always happen, obviously, but not when deals are prohibitive. So no matter which way you slice it, personnel and the deals they’ve signed will always be of critical importance in a reconstruction effort.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do this thing right and don’t handcuff yourself in anyway

these players are signed already – so we are handcuffed. Sure we can cut some of them or trade them – but we’ll take cap hits.

plus it’s not like the guys in this article are terrible – they are a good “core” as the article states. Not guys that will take you to the promise land (QB) – but guys, with the right coaches and a good QB, that would really work on just about any team.

Never put salt in your eyes

by J2 on Nov 16, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agreed with your earlier post J2...

but I also agree with Port Royal when he said:

“I know this though: current personnel should not in anyway dictate the reconstruction effort.”

I believe he was not concerned with the player contracts when making his point regarding the new GM/HC…he was simply saying (if I may Port Royal) that Ralph shouldn’t choose a new GM or HC based on their preference for a specific scheme just because we have some players that may fit their scheme already locked up…Ralph should choose the coach that gives the team the best chances of winning a superbowl over the long-term regardless of scheme.

by NorCal BillsFan on Nov 17, 2009 3:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ralph should choose the coach that gives the team the best chances of winning a superbowl over the long-term regardless of scheme.

couldn’t agree more

Never put salt in your eyes

by J2 on Nov 17, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

a mess yes

to underscore the importance of FO and coaching talent, look at Miami. Their roster was a bigger mess pre-Parcels. They are not SB material, but, have made huge strides in a short time. The core we have is better I believe. We need someone to get the most out of it plus supplement it with educated draft decisions.

by fansince60 on Nov 16, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miami's turnaround

I’m not so sure their roster was worse than ours is now. In that 1-15 year, Miami actually had a decent D. Their O line was their weakest point and, oh yeah, so was their qb. So their O put their D into ridiculous positions. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? But yes, bring us a Parcels if there is one to be hired, and we too will soon have one of the best O lines and a solid D.

by Sixteenthback on Nov 16, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Um, where's Marshawn Lynch?

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Nov 16, 2009 1:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Only signed through 2012. His final year is 2013, but he has a voidable final season. Same for McKelvin, who is signed through 2014, but has a voidable final season.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

based on what? player/team option?

by quantumuprising on Nov 16, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If I’m not mistaken, they are player options.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Both can leave anytime

if they want. I’m not sold on either. I think Lynch is a very good second punch and step in starter. That said, they both could develop into very, very good players, especially McKelvin.

by Ono on Nov 16, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How many more 1000 yard seasons does he need before you’re “sold” on him?

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

how many more arrests before you’re “sold” on him?

by MLZNW02 on Nov 17, 2009 12:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Keep Fred Jackson

Aside from his running ability, his ability to QB the “WildBill” formation is a big plus. And…can he be any worse than the guys taking snaps at QB now? O.K., maybe that’s a little unfair given the state of the offensive line (and they are offensive, believe me). But still, this team needs a huge boost in QB play to have any hopes of making the playoffs next year. And better QB play will make the rest of the core better as well.

Get the Bills back to the big game!

by Blitz on Nov 16, 2009 2:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I dunno, he threw a pretty decent spiral….

by quantumuprising on Nov 16, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It was a nice throw he had, looked better than most of Fitz's and Trent's passes....

As my mother once said, common sense isn't as common as it should be, I'm looking at you Fewell, common sense says to play UP on the line against the slant.

by WABillsfan on Nov 17, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I heart these threads ...

… only because they make me feel like something positive could happen one day. :)

by sabre74kkn on Nov 16, 2009 2:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Being that we are in play out the string mode, what’s the harm in trying to get Maybin some additional PT and getting an idea what we have there? I feel like he could make it into the starter category in that situation, but as currently deployed, it’s hard to say he could start next year with any confidence.

by TheK-GunNeedsReloaded on Nov 16, 2009 2:40 PM EST via mobile reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

Only list a name as a starter if you think they could start for a playoff-caliber football team.


Evans and Moorman. Other guys may very well prove to be valuable role players or very quickly become starters, but these are my only two.

by jpheff on Nov 16, 2009 2:47 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

You don’t think Eric Wood could start on the Steelers OL?

"Play like hell and win." - Perry Fewell
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 18, 2009 6:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Marshawn is a long-term player for us, at least he should be, and is a Pro Bowl RB, when the slobs up front give him just some lanes to run through. I still think Donte has a place on this list, though he certainly has a ton of things he needs to prove for him to receive a contract extension from the new regime.

by BillsfanfromDenmark on Nov 16, 2009 2:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I still don’t understand people screaming about GET RID OF MARSHAWN when he’s playing behind the worst O-Line in football after back to back 1000 yard seasons…

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well I don’t understand the get rid of marshawn sentiment if there is one. however, one cannot deny that Jackson gets more yardage behind the same line

Never put salt in your eyes

by J2 on Nov 16, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

which brings me to another point – don’t waste 1st round draft picks on RB’s unless they are of the Adrian Peterson mold.

good RBs can be found in other rounds or go undrafted. use those picks on building a foundation – not a on a RB. Build a solid O line and you can put anyone back there

Never put salt in your eyes

by J2 on Nov 16, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

yea people who wanted lynch gone drove me nuts. this guy usually carries 4-5 guys for 2-3 yards each play. Just think if he had a line

by csc06258 on Nov 16, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Starters

Evans, McGee, Moorman, Stroud could start for anyone, anytime.

Schobel is a pass rush specialist, he’s never been good against the run. I’ve seen him pancaked by tight ends on running plays, yikes! That would keep him playing strong in the fourth quarter too.

Jackson plays the Kevin Faulk role, he’ll play it well into his thirties.

Mitchell is a better than average back up, would be a starter only if the end in front of him is strong against the run.

Most of the rest could be starters if there were a strong cast around them. For example, take Wood, Levitre, Hang, Butler. Put one or two of them on an otherwise strong line, you’ll do well. Put them all together at once at this stage in their career, not so good.

Johnson is strictly a depth player. Maybin is a total bust until he proves otherwise.

by Rick A on Nov 16, 2009 3:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Maybin is a total bust until he proves otherwise.

It’s been a numbers game, he’s a, um, rookie DE and seriously, give the kid a break and two more years. Total is a strong adjective.

Delightfully Ignoring The Truth since 1995.

by NeverendingOptimism on Nov 17, 2009 8:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rec'd

Maybin has played very little…he does not determine his PT…WAY too early to call him a bust…by the same timeline, Mario Williams was a bust too…

by NorCal BillsFan on Nov 17, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I will go alone here,

because I think Kyle Williams has the tools to start on a playoff team, assuming the said playoff team has a solid DL around him, and would likely need an All-Pro in the mix.

When he is healthy, he might be the most under-the-radar Bill.

i NeED me SoME mArshAWn LynCH!

by the Uncommon Denominator on Nov 16, 2009 3:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

agree.

I still miss Pat Williams though…

Delightfully Ignoring The Truth since 1995.

by NeverendingOptimism on Nov 17, 2009 8:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hmmmm

I think a lot of these guys could possibly start on a playoff calibre team . . . if that meant air-dropping them into a situation where they were surrounded by playoff-calibre teammates with a playoff-calibre coach. But completing the mission:

First group: I could see each of these guys starting on a playoff team (if the above condition were met).

Second group: All of these guys still have something to prove. Though Byrd would be OK just because he’s shown himself to be a playmaker whatever his weaknesses.

Third group: A bunch of back-ups on a playoff team. No starters.

by Applsoss on Nov 16, 2009 4:06 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I agree. All of the first group. Among the youth, at this time only Byrd. Any playoff team would find a way to get him onto the field in passing situations, if not as a starter, especially for the playoffs. But I also think that Butler and Williams (if their knees mend) might thrive under the conditions that you set.

by Sixteenthback on Nov 16, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Bills may have gotten blown out,

but at least they were able to spoil someone’s marriage proposal (photo)

by Frank Reich Revolution on Nov 16, 2009 4:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ha – didn’t even notice that

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 16, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hahahaha, that’s awesome.

I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute

by kaisertown on Nov 16, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nice catch there.....

by Evans and you!

Kudos!

Pass the chocolate cake!

by norcaliangelsfan on Nov 16, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Its Funny Marshawn Lynch didn't make the list

After traveling to the probowl last year and regarded as one of the toughest runners in the league you would have thought he would make our “core” player list, which is not much of a list may I have you. Maybe you forgot him but he will be with us for at least 2 more years I believe and his ceiling is through the roof. If you give this guy a good line, watch out! He is probably only averaging 8 carries a game which is not going to get it done on sundays. One key aspect this team has forgotten from last year is running the ball. Since the signing of T.O this team thinks they are the New England Patriots and tries to throw the ball way too much. Our line is not good enough and neither is our Q.B. It was comical to watch the no huddle offense at work with Dick Jauron thinking we had the line and Q.B to make it work. This team needs to get to basics and run run run run the ball. If someone looks up our rushing attempts per game I would say on average they are probably 8-10 carries lower per game lower than last year.

by csc06258 on Nov 16, 2009 5:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

brian addresses why marshawn doesn’t make the list

his contract doesn’t fit the criteria, that’s all.

not a judgement on him as a player, he just didn’t fit into the parameters of this discussion, and Brian had to draw the line on contract length somewhere.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 16, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

just read it, gotcha.

by csc06258 on Nov 16, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Now, to answer the Question

I’ll go with Non-Starters cuz there are probably less:

McKelvin- He is not as good as Florence to this point.

Maybin- haha i won’t go there, by the way Orakpo had 1.5 sacks vs Dever- he now has 7.0 Total on the season.

Jackson- Lynch is simply a better back and only is 23. To keep Jackson going for longer (since he is 29) use him as a change of pace/screen passes cuz he can still provide big plays for us off the bench, but I want Lynch carrying the load (I would like to see 20-25) carries per game from Lynch. You do need two backs in this league and i am glad we have Jackson.

Spencer Johnson- I like the combo of Stroud and Williams

Geoff- Is horrible, and needs to be what he is, a back-up. Most of the pressure I have seen Trent take is from straight up the middle. This guy gets blown backwards 2-3 yards off each snap.

Brad Butler- Really undecided. He looked good the first game and a half, but he is injury prone. I would like to upgrade both the tackle positions via free agency/draft.

by csc06258 on Nov 16, 2009 5:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lynch v. Jackson

all the talent in the world doesn’t help if you dance behind the line. for as talented as he is lynch is dancing too much instead of plowing forward for 3 yards. he needs to stop looking for the big play every time.

by neverbeentobuffalo on Nov 16, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He didn’t used to dance when he had a line. And he’s not getting any runs up the middle anymore for his signature plowing through the line.

Seriously, did any of the Lynch vs. Jackson people actually watch a game before this year?

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good point UZ, i dont know why so many people are hating on Lynch

by csc06258 on Nov 16, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

seriously? there is no holes to run through. thats why he is dancing looking for a hole.

by csc06258 on Nov 16, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Florence is probably the most useless player on the Bills. Can’t cover, makes dumb mistakes, can’t figure out how zones work…

Don’t say McKelvin is worse than him, because that’s just not true.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 16, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Florence can't cover

What games have you been watching this year? He’s been as good a CB we’ve had the past 3-4 years. He’s physical, tough and is a pretty good tackler.

McKelvin is FAR worse than Florence at this point. Really, what have you been watching that leads you to believe McKelvin played better when healthy?

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 16, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think florence has looked really good

by csc06258 on Nov 16, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

also, I do not know how you call him useless when he starts and does well. We don’t allow big passes and our D plays well. Its our offense that blows the games. If you want to call anyone useless on Defense it Maybin. The guy is a complete ghost on the field. Plays about 30% of the time and does absolutely nothing.

by csc06258 on Nov 16, 2009 10:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

true!!

Only thing thats funny is Jackson makes someone miss to pick up 2-3 yards while Lynch runs over someone for 2-3 extra yards. Difference in style is what makes a good debate but there are so many more problems on this team. Either guy would work for me in this offense

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Nov 17, 2009 2:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ROFLMAO!!!!!

Good idea for something to talk about Brian… Something besides the “agony of (another) defeat”….
But the comments I’ve read, I wish I had the time to go back and read, and post comments made contrary to what I’m reading… Schobel is now a starter, huh?? And Stroud is good for a few more years, but Butler and McKelvin are back-ups? Ready to right off a DE we drafted knowing he was a development project?
I’m not knocking anyone’s comments in particular, only trying to point out the misconceptions we may all have over our players, depending on the here, and now… The QB comments alone should show us one major problem, soon to be rectified. That of the coaching staff, and right now, that is all I’m concerned with. As I’ve said in other posts, I chalk up even the “injury bug” to those buffoons since the amount of injury, and the perpetual 7-9 (which we will miss this year) are the only constants in this current Bills era…
And again, to repeat other posts I’ve made, player wise, I think the Bills are of the cusp of great things… Yeah, a bit of tweaking here or there will be done by the next staff, but though my optimism under the current regime is non-existent, good things are ahead, and quicker than we might expect…

by Cinga on Nov 16, 2009 8:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ready to right off a DE we drafted knowing he was a development project?

I am not writing anyone off. If I look at a playoff roster, he’s not on it now. Neither is McKelvin and neither are a particular stretch.

"Play like hell and win." - Perry Fewell
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 18, 2009 6:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Starters on a playoff caliber team?

Fred Jackson, RB – No, reliable backup depth
Lee Evans, WR – Yes.
Aaron Schobel, DE – Maybe. Could be a low starter or a high backup.
Marcus Stroud, DT – Yes.
Kawika Mitchell, LB – Maybe. Could be a low starter or a high backup.
Terrence McGee, CB – Yes.
Brian Moorman, P – Yes.

Shawn Nelson, TE – No
Andy Levitre, OG – No
Eric Wood, C – No
Aaron Maybin, DE – No
Leodis McKelvin, CB – No
Jairus Byrd, S – No

Brad Butler, OT – No
Geoff Hangartner, G/C – No
Kyle Williams, DT – No
Spencer Johnson, DT – No

by AussieBill on Nov 16, 2009 8:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

pretty harsh

but, then again, they are all but a few starters for this non-playoff team, so you could be right

Good Luck With Your Firings Mr. Wilson….Go Bills!

by killascript on Nov 16, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to say that there is not talent there...

I was just answering the question as it was posed. I think that the young guys could have a lot of potential. They have been thrown into the fire and all bar Byrd have not come out well. And presumably a playoff caliber team would have a safety that can tackle as well as ball hawk. However, these younger guys would give great depth and future potential to a playoff caliber team.

by AussieBill on Nov 16, 2009 9:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not saying?

The no’s look like all our future talent. Are you really ready to give up on all these 1st to 2nd year guys? All our future really!! Give some of these guys some time before you judge them.

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Nov 17, 2009 2:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Again...

Just answering the question, which was “Which players would be starters on a playoff caliber team”. The young guys have lots of potential, but on a playoff caliber team there would be people that are currently better then them. I agree that these young guys are probably are future, and there could be some great players there. .

by AussieBill on Nov 17, 2009 3:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Monday night football.......... Cleveland is 1-7...

…. and guess who their one win was against, in our house!!!!
ACK! ACK! PUKE! BARF!
If Ralph is still awake tonight, watching this, then between Cleveland beating us and Bud Adams flipping him the bird Sunday (he’s not in the HOF, Ralph is), Ralph should come out tomorrow…………….. whith all guns blazing……. fire everyone.

"A failure becomes just one time at bat if you refuse to let it defeat you." Marv Levy.

by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Nov 16, 2009 10:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good Luck With Your Firings Mr. Wilson….Go Bills!

by killascript on Nov 16, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s still unbelievable we lost to this Cleveland team. They are terrible, as bad and maybe worse than last year’s Lions.

What an embarrassment.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 16, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well unfortunately for the Lions

the Bills played them in the preseason…..yes, they beat us.

"Are the Bills better than we think, or do they just suck the life out of most teams they play and drag them down to their level? - oompaloompa

by Joe P. on Nov 17, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so true

SAD!!!!

Rookies are like teabags...you don't know what you're gonna get until you put them in hot water. -Harry Neale

by weswed51 on Nov 17, 2009 2:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The Browns are definitely worse than last year’s Lions team. Where is the talent?

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 17, 2009 7:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Byrd can tackle he is just out of position or doesn’t attack enough… yet, he is a rookie. I also see your point in terms of yes, these players have potential, but as is they are not playoff starters

Good Luck With Your Firings Mr. Wilson….Go Bills!

by killascript on Nov 16, 2009 10:18 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

As I understand the assignment

Veteran Core

  • Fred Jackson………Starter (short-term, long-term Kenneth Davis type role)
  • Lee Evans………….Starter (#2 wideout)
  • Aaron Schobel…….Non-starter (pass rushing specialist)
  • Marcus Stroud…….Starter
  • Kawika Mitchell……Non-starter
  • Terrence McGee…..Starter
  • Brian Moorman…….Starter

Young-Core

  • Shawn Nelson………Non-starter (future starter)
  • Andy Levitre…………Non-Starter (could start on playoff team with much more experienced linemates)
  • Eric Wood…………..Non-Starter (could start on playoff team with much more experienced linemates)
  • Aaron Maybin……….Non-Starter (not enough data, but currently too green and undersized)
  • Leodis McKelvin…….Starter (on team with somewhat respectable pass rush)
  • Jairus Byrd…………..Starter (if paired with outstanding SS)

Wandering Veterans

  • Brad Butler……………Starter until inevitable injury_(at guard, not sure about tackle)_
  • Geoff Hangartner…….Non-starter
  • Kyle Williams………..Starter (short-term within rotational scheme)
  • Spencer Johnson……Non-starter

"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban

by NJBill on Nov 17, 2009 2:21 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

The only other playoff caliber starters currently on the roster are:

  • Marshawn Lynch (imagine what he could do with some run blocking and a legitimate passing game)
  • Terrell Owens
  • Rian Lindell

Add these to 4 unconditional starters from the previous list and you have 7 current Bills that could definitely start for a playoff caliber team, 29% from special teams…yikes! This team will need veteran FA’s to fill the gaps and the right Guy finding them..

"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban

by NJBill on Nov 17, 2009 2:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brian your list is right on and I think NJBill hit the nail on the head with his listing of who could be where

This team is gonna need a real GM to right the ship, patch the holes in the hull and get it sailing straight again.

As my mother once said, common sense isn't as common as it should be, I'm looking at you Fewell, common sense says to play UP on the line against the slant.

by WABillsfan on Nov 17, 2009 12:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

GUys who should be starters on a playoff team:

Finally getting around to this.
    * Fred Jackson, RB
    * Lee Evans, WR
    * Aaron Schobel, DE (but that time frame is rapidly declining)
    * Marcus Stroud, DT
    * Kawika Mitchell, LB (Big question mark is the response to the injury)
    * Terrence McGee, CB
    * Brian Moorman, P
    * Shawn Nelson, TE
    * Eric Wood, C
    * Jairus Byrd, S
    * Brad Butler, OT/OG (Willing to let him start but needs competent backup plan)

Guys I’m not ready to commit to yet:
    * Andy Levitre, OG
    * Leodis McKelvin, CB

"Play like hell and win." - Perry Fewell
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 18, 2009 6:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

With that being said I really like Kyle Williams and think he is one of those “first guy off the bench” or avg. starter.

"Play like hell and win." - Perry Fewell
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 18, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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