Buffalo Rumblings: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: The Nova Blog for Villanova Fans!

Identifying the Buffalo Bills' franchise cornerstones

The Buffalo Bills have officially reached their 2009 bye, entering their week off with a not-altogether-unexpected record of 3-5.  We've been down this road before; with 7-9 finishes in each of the past three seasons, the Bills are on pace for yet another similar result.

The bye week can be used as a time of reflection - not just by the Bills themselves, who'll use it for that reason as well to fix a growing pile of errors and perhaps get healthy for the first time since July - but for us fans, as well.  This two-week period without Bills football gives us a chance to boil the team down to its most basic elements as we put on our GM caps and think about not only the second half of the season, but beyond 2009 as well.

There are topics of conversation that we don't need to touch on, or already have.  The Bills need a GM - that's a conversation we've already had.  Buffalo likely getting a new head coach is something that's discussed on a daily basis, so it doesn't really need coverage here.  Those changes have a very strong chance of happening.  From there, we move on to players.  The purpose of this post is to identify the current Bills players that aren't just worth keeping around, but are bona fide stars (or stars-in-the-making) and players around which a perennial playoff contender can be built.

This will be a community exercise.  I'm only throwing one hat into the ring (bet you can't guess who!).  The rest will be up to you in the comments section.

Star-divide

Jairus Byrd, free safety.  I'm not ready to proclaim him a superstar yet, mostly because he still has tackling issues and is much more of a one-dimensional safety than the elite players at his position.  Still, four-game runs such as the one Byrd just wrapped up are virtually unprecedented, even for those aforementioned elite players.  Byrd has registered 7 interceptions in those four games, including two each off of Mark Sanchez, Jake Delhomme and Matt Schaub in the Bills' last three games.  He's not forcing the turnovers, per se, but rarely has a defensive back at this level shown such efficiency in turning bad throws into big plays.  Case in point: Byrd has defended (i.e. gotten his hands on) 9 passes this season.  He's caught 7 of them.  That might give him better mitts than Terrell Owens.

As it stands today, Byrd leads the NFL with those 7 interceptions (and will continue to lead the NFL, unless New Orleans' Darren Sharper picks off two Matt Ryan interceptions on Monday Night Football).  Is this just a random rookie getting superbly hot, or is this run legit? Only time will tell, but two factors lead to optimism: Byrd is doing his damage on one of the worst defenses statistically in the league, and he's doing so without the Bills sporting an elite pass rush.  I think he's legit.  He's certainly going to be in Buffalo for a while based on his tremendous rookie season.

***

Yeah, I took the easy one from you guys.  There are other players that could garner consideration in this discussion; if I may be so bold, I'd like to offer up Lee Evans' name as the next nominee.  Yes, you can name names such as Eric Wood (who has a better shot at becoming a franchise cornerstone as our center, if you ask me) and Aaron Maybin, but neither's play yet warrants such an honor.

Get cracking.  Are there other players on this team that a new regime, without attachments to players young or old, would build around? Discuss.

0 recs  |  Comment 250 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Totally Disagree

This team is not as bad as you are making them out to be (talent wise anyway). On defense, they are one big play linebacker away from being elite. Might have even been there already if they hadn’t lost so many guys to IR already.

Offensively it looks dire at first glance. But the reality is that the team is really only a player or two away from having a good offense. The obvious position that urgently needs upgrade is QB. Fortunately 2010 draft is expected to be super-deep at QB. (and the Bills will most likely have a high pick) The other position of need is Left Tackle. If the Bills can get a QB and a Left Tackle (they could use some of the guys they have now at Right Tackle and be ok and I think with a year under their belt, Wood, Levitre and Hangartner will be pretty solid). Other than that, they have solid runningbacks, quality receivers (You need to only look back at some Losman games to see that if you throw the ball to lee a lot he will make plays), players with potential at Tight End.

The glaring problem to me is the coaching. I’m not convinced that firing the GM is the way to go right now. There have actually been a lot of quality guys drafted the last couple years, its not the GM’s fault that Jauron doesn’t know what to do with them. Also. Jauron was hired by Marv Levy, not Brandon, so blame should be placed in the right place. I personally would be willing to see what kind of coaching hire Brandon would make. You might be surprised, he did go after TO… Which brings me back to the coach. Jauron clearly sucks, however, I have been thoroughly impressed with Perry Fewell’s defenses. Considering the injuries he has had to deal with and the difficult position the offense has put them in, they have been pretty solid. I love Bobby April on special teams too (and so does Wilson). The glaring problem is at offensive coordinator. Is it possible to change head coach and offensive coordinator without changing the other coordinators? I doubt it. Wilson might request that April be kept on as he has done in the past, but I doubt Fewell would be retained. This all makes me wonder if Ralph might go for a big name offensive coordinator instead of firing Jauron…

by Polish Lover on Nov 3, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they need to revamp the LB corps totally, maybe minus Poz, and potentially Harris. God knows when Mitchell will be back to full strength. The DL has more issues than you’re admitting. 3 DEs are getting old and we need AT LEAST another solid, if not elite, DT.

You’re mostly right that the offense is more depth issues than anything else, especially on the line. WR, TE and RB don’t look too bad, though bringing in TE competition might be a smart choice.

Very few people are calling for Brandon to be fired. What people have been saying is that we don’t have a true GM and we need one. Brandon is not bad at what he does, marketing, but he’s not a football guy, which is something that a GM needs to be. Jauron, Modrak, Guy, Overdorf – these are the guys that have combined to do poorly in creating a competitive football team. I’m really disappointed in Jauron and Guy. Modrak, I think is ok but could do with less influence and I wouldn’t be torn apart if he were to lose his job. I’m not actually sure what Overdorf does, but Senior VP of Football Administration seems like something that might be in danger if a new GM gets hired.

Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

by WhyBillsWhy on Nov 3, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Terrance McGee
I’d like Fred Jackson to be considered, too. (I might value him more than Lynch because he provides return-game ability).

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 2, 2009 1:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I’d agree, except he’s coming dangerously close to the line of demarcation for running backs, isn’t he?

Even if he doesn’t crap out at 30 like most do, I think he might be a little too aged to be considered a franchise cornerstone.

by quantumuprising on Nov 2, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Fred Jackson could be a cornerstone like Kevin Faulk has been a cornerstone. If you’re a popular player who plays an important role, even if it isn’t a starting role, is under contract for awhile and somewhat dictates the way the offense/defense is built and schemed around him, then we could maybe consider Jackson to be a cornerstone.

I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute

by kaisertown on Nov 3, 2009 3:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, Fred Jackson is too old to be a cornerstone.

I’ll throw our promising guard-duo into the mix. Eric Wood has higher potential, but Andy Levitre performed better this season. Nonetheless, I think that these two will solidify the O-Line, which, in my opinion, is the most important unit on a nfl-team.

"What in the hell have I gotten myself into?" - Bruce Smith HOF

by Chriz on Nov 2, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

A long shot – but i’d like to see a bit more of nic harris at linebacker.

by quantumuprising on Nov 2, 2009 1:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

They are giving Bryan Scott reps at LB this week because they aren’t sure of Harris. He needs to show me a lot more for me to consider him a cornerstone.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Defense

I think Defensively you need to keep the core together. I do believe the defense is one strong LB away from being close to elite. The D is one or two players away from being effective against the run and pass. Also, a lot of youth in the secondary.

Core: Whinter, Poz, Byrd, Stroud, Schobel, McGee, K. Williams.

Offense: Keep only the players who would fit your new system (and that is assuming we have a new system). Levitre/Wood/Evans/Jackson/Lynch all seem to be the core but are all expendable based on results.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 1:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Cornerstones can’t be 1 player. It has to be a group that allows you to build an identity. Our identity will have to be defensive based. It’s not like we have a QB, RB, WR to build our team around like Kelly, Reed, Thomas.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know it won't be popular but....

I think you have to add Kelsay to that list. I think Reggie Corner needs to be kept as the nickel back. You also failed to mention the the Special Teams where I think you need to keep George Wilson (good not great depth in the secondary as well) as well as the obvious of Moorman.

by Mr. h on Nov 2, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with everything you said. Corner, Kelsay, Wilson and Florence. The upgrades need to be a solid 3rd DT and 2 OLBs.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’d like it to be a starting -quality DT. We need a Pat Williams wide-bodied run-stuffer very badly. Also, remember that Stroud isn’t getting any younger.

by Macktruck on Nov 2, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hahaha

"Well, I’m always hungry and it’s time to eat" - Marshawn Lynch

by bflo on Nov 2, 2009 6:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know

It just had to be said, Kelsay has been big for us this year.

by Mr. h on Nov 2, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

This year, yes, he’s been better. We still need more production and we need it at a lower price.

Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

by WhyBillsWhy on Nov 2, 2009 7:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, if and when we make the playoffs, I doubt any of us are going to point to Kelsay’s play and that’s the reason why.

by Dr. Brackish Okun on Nov 2, 2009 9:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll eat my hat.

Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged

by Dyl on Nov 2, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

5? Try 2.

Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

by WhyBillsWhy on Nov 3, 2009 9:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nah

He’s been decent this year. I’ll let him have his due for now. At least until he’s invisible the second half of the year.

His production still isn’t all that great anyhow….

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 2, 2009 11:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Plus he’s on the wrong side of 30. How can you build around him for the future?

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 1:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can't agree with Evans.

Sure he’s paid like one but he doesn’t play like one. All he needed was someone opposite him to take the pressure off him… that’s only going to lead to his worst season ever. Lee is the Rob Deer of WRs. It’s either a homerun or nothing.

by twoeightnine on Nov 2, 2009 1:17 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

I get that. I consider Evans a borderline elite talent. If I had been him, not only would I be far richer and more handsome, but I wouldn’t have re-signed in Buffalo. He needed a change of scenery. I know he’s highly regarded around the league by talent evaluators, and I consider him a cornerstone because of that.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right. Put Evans opposite Reggie Wayne and watch the production.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 2, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn’t phrase it like that, because Peyton Manning would have a lot more to do with it than Reggie Wayne.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know but I think Evans as a Colt w/Wayne would be as beautiful a thing as Rice and Taylor. Not a Colts fan, obviously, but there’s absolutely nothing to hate about them (as long as you’re not a Baltimore fan).

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 2, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He’s opposite a Hall of Famer now and doing nothing. Brian’s point is correct. The QB is more important.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He still needs a change of scenery. For THIS team I wouldn’t consider him a cornerstone. For another team? That’s a different conversation.

You are blinding beacon of light from heaven.

by Scrumtrulescent on Nov 2, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A change of scenery can happen within the Bills.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 2, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. That’s why I offered up his name. Don’t forget that in Jauron’s first year in Buffalo, which would qualify as something of a change of scenery, he had his best season as a pro.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember being so upset when they announced the Jauron hire. But you’re right, it was his best season as a pro.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 2, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not just his best season, but his best season by far. He put up huge numbers that year and almost all of his reputation is based off his 2006 season. Evans definitely needs a new QB.

I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute

by kaisertown on Nov 3, 2009 3:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rec'd solely for the rob deer reference.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Evans needs a QB

no WR can seem Elite without at least an average qb. Well one that at least throws more than checkdowns. haha

How many years can we go without making the playoffs...eventually the odds go in your favor.........right?!?!?

by Rudy916 on Nov 2, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As much as I LOVE what I’ve seen so far in the Byrd-Man, I also have to agree on the tackling issues as well. But, as for this post, yes, I agree he’s a keeper to build on IMO. He’s very young and inexperienced, especially @ FS after converting over from being a corner @ the college level,

I still love Maybin. I know, he’s NOT done anything to warrant such a statement, but again, he’s VERY young and inexperienced as well. I love his speed as a rusher. I think once he learns how to generate some more counter-moves, he’ll improve w/ time. After-all, it’s not quite a position that one cam immedialtey move into and make an immediate impact at. I think given time, some more muscle, some more coaching, this kid is worth buiding on as well.

I like Leo too! He’s still very young & WAS getting some valuable time in the starting role up until his IR began. I think he can be a threat in the return game and seems as though he’s picking up the corner role too.

Speaking of corner, I think I’m liking Reggie more & more that I see him. He’s around the ball a lot and again is very young like the others. Experience can only enhance him at the position.

Naturally, the two new OL-men we drafted last off-season will be here for years to come. We need the stability on that OL in order for an offense to be effective.

Now just get me a QB – P L E A S E !!!

Season Ticket Holder Sec: 312, Row: 15
"There's NO place like home when it's the Big Tree Inn"

by Pocono Bob on Nov 2, 2009 1:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe it is just me but I don’t think the roster needs to be torn apart. I think we are 3 players away (QB, T, LB), and a coach from being a playoff team. I think we need to keep the current personell as I feel there are a lot of cornerstones. Fro ex: The secondary for the next 4 years Whitner, Byrd, McGee, McKelvin sounds good to me. So does Maybin, Schobel, Stroud and Williams. Also, we have 2 rookie guards who will only get better and same for D. Bell. I like the youth at WR (Hardy, Johnson, Evans) and RB. Get a top tackle, a functional QB, and a solid LB and let our young players continue to grow. This time with someone who can coach.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 1:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, but that’s not how it works. If you want to keep as much of the roster intact as possible, you’d better be going out and finding the closest thing you can to Dick Jauron in your next head coach, because opinions ALWAYS differ on players. Schemes change. Techniques change. The important positions (QB) change.

As an example: Jauron likes his linemen. A surprisingly large amount of Bills fans look at Buffalo’s line and say “hey, there’s potential.” I guarantee you that, in the likely event a new coach comes in, he’ll replace at a bare minimum 60% of that line.

You can’t just plug-and-chug at coach, because it’s impossible to say “hey, new coach, coach these guys or you don’t get the job.”

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I bet Tony Dungy would be great for this group of players.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 2, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I sincerely doubt he coaches again.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

True on Dungy, but……….

I’m not so sure that an astute coaching search couldn’t find an individual who felt he could have the makings of a decent team already on board without wholesale, or even 60% turnover.

Hence my personal frustration. I think there is some talent on this roster, in 3 tiers: older but still productive, coming into prime, and young but promising.

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. I do think he’s the best of the best when looking to retain the core of this roster.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 2, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree. I do think a new coach will make some changes. But a new coach can also look at a team, replace 4 to 6 starters and turn a .500 club into a playoff team. Yes the scheme will change and yes techniquest may change but a new coach with 2 new defensive starters and 3 new offensive starter (which would include the QB) could make this team dangerous.

In today’s day and age, various new coaches come in and don’t overhaul in their first year. The one’s that do generally fail with McDaniels being the exception. Both Superbowl teams from last year had new head coaches with virtually the same roster. Excluding the QB the Jets have virtually the same roster.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Save Jauron until the end of the season.

Don’t make the same mistake most teams make, and sack ’em during the season. Bring in someone new with a clean slate and no baggage.

Head Weatherman/ Injury Specialist of the Phinsider.

Bender: Who wants dolphin? Leela: Dolphin? But dolphins are intelligent. Bender: Not this one. He blew all his money on instant lottery tickets.

by Farorefox on Nov 2, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree Dick Jauron should be the coach until our season ends. I am by no means suggesting getting rid of him today.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree. I do think a new coach will make some changes. But a new coach can also look at a team, replace 4 to 6 starters and turn a .500 club into a playoff team. Yes the scheme will change and yes techniquest may change but a new coach with 2 new defensive starters and 3 new offensive starter (which would include the QB) could make this team dangerous.

Well, I don’t disagree with that. But the new regime wouldn’t turn the entire roster over in one season, either – they couldn’t.

I’m talking about finding the guys that a new regime would look at and say “yeah, this guy is a player. He needs to be here long-term. He is elite.” A new regime could look at Paul Posluszny and be completely satisfied with him as the starting MLB for the 2010 season, but that doesn’t mean he’s in their long-term plans. I want long-term names, not guys who may or may not stick beyond the first couple years of the new regime.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

With that said, I nominate Bell, Byrd, Nelson, and Wood. Many established Bills are conditioned to lose.

Sweet home Orchard Park.
jb

by the Uncommon Denominator on Nov 2, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Many established Bills are conditioned to lose.

I’ll tell you right now that that argument holds very little water with me. NFL players are NFL players. If they’re good enough, they’re good enough. Who cares how their teams have finished if they’re good enough? You’re telling me Schobel wouldn’t bust his ass for a new coach?

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Schobel would “bust his ass” for a new coach, yes. Are you telling me that Schobel is going to be a dominating DE (franchise cornerstone) “beyond the first couple years of the new regime.”


Many established Bills are conditioned to lose.

I will be the first to tell you that there are exceptions to this theory. My H.S. team didn’t win more than 2-4 games/year for decades, until my senior year, when we went to the state championship. We had been conditioned to loose, but beat the odds. Any football team can turn around.

But that is the exception…

Sweet home Orchard Park.
jb

by the Uncommon Denominator on Nov 2, 2009 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He didn’t call Schobel a cornerstone. He said he would work his butt off despite being what you called “conditioned to lose.”

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In today’s NFL I view long term plans being 4-5 years and mid range plans 2-3 years and short term plans 1 year. With injuries and the changing dynamic in the NFL I don’t believe in looking further than a 5 year plan. The NFL landscape is not the same as it was in the 70s, 80s and early 90s.

Based on what I think you are trying to get at who would I want from our current roster on the team in 4-5 years is Nobody. No one has earned it, not Byrd, not Poz, not Lynch, and Schobel, Stroud are too old. Long term is 4+ years: Manning might not even fall into that in INdy due to his age. In fact, any player over 30 should be automatically eliminated from true long term plans.

The core (the guys I want for the next 3 years): Schobel, Williams, Stroud, Maybin, Poz, McKelvin, McGee, Whitner, Byrd, Wood, Levitre, Lynch, Jackson, Evans.

Guys I think are the base we will need to build off of for the next 5 years: Lynch, Maybin, Williams, Poz, McKelvin, Whitner, Byrd, Wood, Levitre, Harris, Nelson, Corner, Florence, Schoman, Hardy, S. Johnson, D. Bell.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not elite

but the guys you named best claim to “elite” status is they have not been around long enough to be demonstrated failures.

by jpheff on Nov 2, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you only want long term

Bell, Byrd, Levitre, Wood, Poz, McKelvin with Lynch, Hardy, Johnson, Nelson, Maybin, Corner and Whitner as maybes.

by Mr. h on Nov 2, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brad Butler isnt exactly young or old...........

but he’s a name I would throw out there as well…………him being out has hurt a ton I think.

Pass the chocolate cake!

by norcaliangelsfan on Nov 2, 2009 1:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It will take 2 years before Butler or any of the other MCL's, ACL's guys get back to 100%

Sure we’ll do everything we can to get Butler, Leo, Hardy, etc. back to playing again, but it won’t happen for 2 years until they will be competent starters.

by dabillsr1 on Nov 2, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he's only 26 right now............

even if what you say is true………..28 for an OL with his talent isnt a bad piece of the puzzle.

Pass the chocolate cake!

by norcaliangelsfan on Nov 2, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FYI, 26 is the median age for nfl players in the league right now.

by Dr. Brackish Okun on Nov 2, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Other Than Byrd, maybe Poz right now...

I don’t see where anyone is playing like a “cornerstone player” or that we can truly say, “that isn’t a position we can improve upon”.

by dabillsr1 on Nov 2, 2009 1:38 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Excuse me Stroud should probably be added to the list too

He is doubled every play and sometimes triple teamed.

by dabillsr1 on Nov 2, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Really gotta disagree there. He bats down balls, which is great, but he gets stood up easily and doesn’t generate much pressure. Plus, he’s getting older and not improving any longer.

Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

by WhyBillsWhy on Nov 2, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

he generated pressure on Schaub, Brees and other QBs this season alone. Stroud has been great.

To me, the sucker is the person who runs when there’s trouble, especially when this situation was so easily foreshadowed….

by poz on Nov 2, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Stroud is leading the lead in tackles from the DT/DE position

Just because he doesn’t get double digit sacks doesn’t mean that he isn’t effective… plus the guy is batting down balls.

He is having a pro-bowl year

by dabillsr1 on Nov 2, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry. I missed a key word in my comment and now feel silly. Should read:

he gets stood up easily and doesn’t generate much pressure consistently

I’m not so hung up on sack totals, though they are nice. It just seems to me that he’s up and down as far as production. I will also say that tackles #‘s don’t mean much either. Look at Ellison. He’s put up some great tackle #‘s too and yet it appears to me that he’s getting mauled out there. I’m not comparing Stroud to Ellison either. Stroud is still a solid starter, I just don’t think he’s someone you can build around.

Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

by WhyBillsWhy on Nov 2, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

"I just don't think he's someone you can build around"

I would say quite the contrary, which is why the Bills gave him another two year extention on his contract earlier this season even though his contract wasn’t up for another two years.

He is exactly who the Bills are building around and would like to get a few more “Stroud’s” to go with him.

He’s the best we’ve had since Pat Williams left.

by dabillsr1 on Nov 2, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As a DT, you don’t want to be the league-leader in tackles. That means that offenses don’t fear you enough not to run the ball at you.

by Dr. Brackish Okun on Nov 2, 2009 9:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

* cough * Ellison * cough *

Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

by WhyBillsWhy on Nov 3, 2009 9:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, he said DT, but Ellison works too, I suppose.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 3, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was referring to his tackle numbers more than anything. He did say DT though. You’re right.

Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

by WhyBillsWhy on Nov 3, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you think we can't improve on poz?

he’s the cornerstone of the worst rushing defense in the league.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not nearly as anti-Poz as you and your dad are, but I don’t consider him a franchise cornerstone, either. I love the guy, but I don’t consider him to be one of the best 15 players at his position.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well said brian

He’d start for other teams, and is a good solid player, but appears to be that his ceiling is rather average.

by sabre74kkn on Nov 2, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't like being all "torch and pitchfork" on poz, but I am what I am.

I understand his appeal. He’s definitely tough, he works hard, he seems like a team guy, but he’s just not that good at football at the moment. I’d like him to succeed, and I dont want to rule out that he could become good, but right now, it seems more like fantasy to consider him a good nfl linebacker.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

please

dabills watch Poz play. He is not even average let alone elite. I get jumped on all the time for not being a Poz fan boy and I will readily admit that his supporting cast is weak and that the scheme is bad. However, please watch the last two touchdown runs up the middle by the Texans yesterday. They are a seminar on why Poz is not even approaching elite.

by jpheff on Nov 2, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Speaking of Hardy

What DATE do we need to declare him either on IR for the season, or activate him by? I know ya get the 1st 6 weeks on the PUP, and then the 3 weeks to evaluate him before making said decision, but does that have to come by this Friday? If not, then when? I’m assuming the BYE week has no bearing on this, but I could be wrong too.

Sorry for going off topic, but I would like to know just the same.

Season Ticket Holder Sec: 312, Row: 15
"There's NO place like home when it's the Big Tree Inn"

by Pocono Bob on Nov 2, 2009 1:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Off the top of my head

i believe its 21 days after coming off the pup.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep. Bob mentioned those three weeks… they have to decide at the end of those 3 weeks.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The AP says they have until next week to activate him, and “barring something unexpected” they expect to activate him.

by Mr. h on Nov 2, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am a really big fan of Stroud and I was very excited when the Bills got him. I know he is getting up there in age but I think he still has a good few years left.
K. Williams, I like his effort, but I would rather see him as a back up – just to think to yourself a really good tackle next to Stroud, that would be a force.
I have always liked Schobel, not because he’s fancy, but he gets stuff done – however if injuries keep cropping up he’s gotta go…
Poz you keep, not because he is amazing, but I think he can do everything well and I love his attitude and tackling.
McGee is a good corner and I think he does a decent job all around – not spetacular; but definitely allows you to look else where.
I have always liked R. Corner – I don’t think hes a corner stone; but I don’t think you need to worry about the nickel CB either.
— Then again I like all of our secondary, once Whitner gets healthy I definitely like Whitner/Byrd for safety and throwing in Scott instead of Byrd on run support would be great.
—The front 7 there are only 3 I like as starters – Poz/Stroud/Schobel

I was born in Buffalo, and NO, it's not a suburb of New York City

by Ghetts on Nov 2, 2009 1:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great post

I like this post and it does give us something new to talk about. I think players that are considered stars or are worth keeping/we should build around are as followed:

Defense

DT- Marcus Stroud-an animal (maybe probowler this year)
MLB-Poz (solid MLB if healthy)
OLB-Nic Harris (bright future, great athlete and a future playmaker)
DB-Mcgee, Florence, Mckelvin (this is probably the last postition the Bills need to address)
FS-Byrd (Wow so far, even though most of the Picks are gift wrapped, he still makes the play)

Offense

HB- both Jackson and Lynch- these guys have no holes to run through, can’t blame them
WR-Evans, Hardy, Steve Johnson- I would try to keep Owens around another year if possible
TE-Nelson- Looks to have bright future
OG-Levitre and Wood (Wood is a stud interior lineman, Levitre is solid, not great)

Every other postition needs serious evaluation or upgrades. I think the most crucial need are Offensive Tackles + a new coach.

by csc06258 on Nov 2, 2009 1:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with all of your selections

and would add Whitner, Corner, Schoebel, Moorman, Lindell, George Wilson (special teams) and Demetrius Bell. Bell has some work to do but I still think he has a lot of potential at tackle. I’m not sure I agree with keeping a bunch of guys around just for special teams ability, but if you’re going to plug in a bunch of inexperienced backups you need a guy like Wilson to lead them on the field and he has some value on defense. TO can go and I’ll help him pack (oops, I guess I didn’t agree with that selection).

I’d like to see a lot more of Steve Johnson, Ashlee Palmer, Nic Harris, Shawn Nelson, Aaron Maybin, Derek Fine, Jonathon Stupar and James Hardy in the second half of the season, in the hopes that they get a fair shake from the new regime that we all assume/desperately hope is coming.

by k8 on Nov 2, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the responses

Yea I am just not a fan of Donte, his contract is up after next year and I would keep him only if he doesn’t want a large contract. The guy is not a playmaker and is simply a pretty solid safety. If we can keep him for a reasonable price than O.K, but if not, then forget it. I forgot Moorman and Lindell, they’re solid. I also think Bell is horrible and he is not a starter, we need starting Offensive tackles, not backups playing the position. These running backs have no holes to run and the Q.B no time to throw. I would love to see T.O here with a new coaching staff, say what you want to about T.O but he is a playmaker and still has some left in the tank.

by csc06258 on Nov 2, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Add Whitner & Corner. Owens is not part of the solution so he has to go.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I want them to keep Owens because I think under a different system, he REALLY produces for this team. I think the system has killed his value, no matter how much he likes Club Jauron.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Nov 2, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but unless no other team wants him, i don’t think he would want to come back here.

by tpsabres on Nov 2, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I am one of the few believers that Hardy will get it together and be effective by next year. Hardy and Steve Johnson are the next Manningham and SMith combo.

by Berg79 on Nov 2, 2009 5:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OLB-Nic Harris (bright future, great athlete and a future playmaker)

Based on…. his multiple penalties on special teams? Preseason? I need to see more of him to even be comfortable with him starting let alone calling him a cornerstone.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

On offense

I like Evans – however I don’t like him with our QBs – you need a QB who will allow Evans to make a great catch ( he was only thrown to 2x yesterday!)
I think Levitre will be a good guard, and I definitely think Wood should be moved to C and I think that would work out well.
I am a fan of Butler at RT, but his injuries make him a liability.
Lynch dances too much for my liking and I hate to say it, but you gotta let him go.
I still don’t know what we got in Hardy, and Stevie is only a #3 WR.
Freddy I am a huge fan of – but he’s getting up there and I don’t think he could handle a full load day in day out

I was born in Buffalo, and NO, it's not a suburb of New York City

by Ghetts on Nov 2, 2009 1:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Lynch is a great back, he dances because there is no hole to run through. He usually pushes the whole O-line for 2-3 yards. He cannot be brought down by one guy. If this guy had a line he would be a top 5 back all day. So if you cut him and go with Jackson, you probably have jackson for 1 year until he is too old to play, so now what? draft another RB. This doesn’t make sense. Lynch is still very young with a TON of potential.

by csc06258 on Nov 2, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But honestly

I think personel really depends on the coach that is brought in. There is no point of having a guy that can burn the opposing secondary (Evans) if you are never going to throw it to him…

I was born in Buffalo, and NO, it's not a suburb of New York City

by Ghetts on Nov 2, 2009 1:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Safeties

One of the biggest things I’m looking forward to the rest of this season (which is not much) is how Whitner and Byrd play together. You can argue that Donte never really had a quality partner lining up with him in the backfield and if the hype is close to warranted on Byrd it’ll be very interesting to see how they feed off one another.

It’s tough not to argue that the latest super bowl caliber teams all relied heavily on their safeties to contribute defensively. Having a presumably top 10 duo is intriguing…if not necessary.

Were these guys important?
Troy Polamalu
Rodney Harrison (ugh)
Brian Dawkins
Adrian Wilson
Bob Sanders
Ed Reed

by killabstingz on Nov 2, 2009 1:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

good points, my one disagreement

I wouldn’t describe the talk about Byrd as hype. He’s leading the league in INT’s and just started getting starts within the last month.

He could be a flash in the pan, but this isn’t just hype.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

MORE MAN

from wikipedia:

Moorman signed with the Buffalo Bills as a free agent during the summer of 2001. As a player for the Bills, Moorman quickly gave the Bills reliable punting skill along with an aptitude of launching long punts when needed. In his second season with the Bills, Moorman booted an 84 yard punt in a game and averaged over 43 yards per kick, despite playing most of his games in one of the most challenging climates in the NFL. Over the past several seasons, Moorman’s stellar play has seen him selected as a two time NFL All-Pro (2005,2006) and garnered a unique and passionate following among some fans who believe he is the best player on the team: Often known as “Moormanators.” Every year near Pro Bowl voting time, these fans take up a cry of “Vote Moorman, Vote Often”. This folk-hero like status has even led to some fans creating joke Madden NFL game covers with Brian on the cover. One also sees the occasional Moorman jersey at Ralph Wilson Stadium, unheard of for a punter. Commentator Chris Berman nicknamed him Brian Moorman “Tabernacle Choir”.

by beelove on Nov 2, 2009 2:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Moorman

Well, he couldn’t have found a better team, assuming that he likes to punt more than to warm the bench. You’d think that with Buffalo he has a shot at becoming the all-time leader in career punting yards.

Last year I started joking that our best play was the forward punt, but not this year. This year I’m not joking.

Also, through the first half of the season, Moorman has about as many TD passes (1) as either starting quarterback. (I know, Edwards might have 3 or 4 — let’s not split hairs.)

by Sixteenthback on Nov 2, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

quick list

offense:
Marshawn Lynch/Fred Jackson – it is much harder for inexperienced lineman to run block, these guys get no holes. Imagine if they had an o-line!

James Hardy – Helloooooooooooooooo!!!!! I can’t believe you guys. Are we already forgeting that most great receivers usually have to develop until between season 3 and 5 in the league to break out?? This guy is tall, can jump and catch. A new coaching staff will love him.

Lee Evans/Stevie J/Josh Reed – These four are our future receiving corp and a new coaching staff would be crazy to worry about WR before fixing more pressing needs. Hardy was drafted to emerge as a legit starting weapon. He should. Stevie and Josh can run around underneath.

Shawn Nelson – I think he has serious super star potential if he could stay healthy

Demetrius Bell – He’ll stick around in some capacity. Hes getting better every game.

Defense:

Kyle Williams

Paul Posluszny

Kawika Mitchell – I bet a coaching staff will love his veteran presence

McKelvin/McGee/Whitner/Byrd – DONT TOUCH THE SECONDARY. ITS AMAZING!!

Then just let Schobel and Stroud finish out their careers keeping holes plugges for the new regime while they address other needs.

Heck, this list would have been shorter drawing up what we don’t have – this team is talented!! A new regime will get a new QB, a FB, a RG or RT, OLB, DE

To me, the sucker is the person who runs when there’s trouble, especially when this situation was so easily foreshadowed….

by poz on Nov 2, 2009 2:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I’ve seen Lynch and Jackson come up a couple of times now. Here’s why I don’t consider them franchise cornerstones. RB is by far the easiest position in the league to plug-and-play somebody. Just ask Ryan Moats. That doesn’t mean RBs can’t be franchise cornerstones – Adrian Peterson, anyone? To me, Lynch and Jackson are just good players. They are not players that I MUST HAVE if I’m building a team, though.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this point 10 times over.

To a further extent, when I saw the article was "Identifying the Buffalo Bills’ franchise cornerstones ", I was thinking of what 4 or so players are the most important ones currently on our team that we can’t let go and can build our team around. These lists of 14 players that are not expendable, including Kyle Williams, Stroud, Poz, Lynch, Reed, etc… don’t make sense to me. There are very few players that any new GM or coach would come in and say “we absolutely have to hold onto that guy”. If Brad Butler and Paul Poszluzny are cornerstones for our franchise, then we have serious problems.

p.s. first post :)

"Who is Beethoven?" - Marshawn Lynch

by Brainwave on Nov 2, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice first post, and welcome.

You have the general idea of what I was going for down pat in this sentence:

There are very few players that any new GM or coach would come in and say "we absolutely have to hold onto that guy".

These are the guys I’m trying to get y’all to identify, folks. :)

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well alright,

I’d boil my list down to Byrd, Wood, Levitre, McGee, Schoebel, Stroud, and Moorman. However, the first three are rookies so we can’t know for sure that they can keep this up and the other four are on the downside of their careers. Franchise cornerstones? If you’re a GM this kind of exercise really forces you to take a long hard look in the mirror doesn’t it?

by k8 on Nov 2, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you’re a GM this kind of exercise really forces you to take a long hard look in the mirror doesn’t it?

You bet it does. Easiest way to say “this is what we have that’s elite, let’s go get the positions we need to be elite”

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sooo you have the braintrust’s email right? ;)

by k8 on Nov 2, 2009 3:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Is there a difference between having elite players and being an elite team?

I mean, really. How many “elite” players does Indy have? One.
How many “elite” players does NE have? One.
How many “elite” players does NO have? One.

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Randy Moss isn’t elite?
Dwight Freeney?
I would even say Colston is elite.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok – Moss is probably “elite” again in NE – but it somewhat dovetails the point I was trying to make. With the Raiders, in a crap, dysfunctional system – he was largely written off as washed up.

Freeney pre-micro fracture, yes. Now, in my opinion. No, no longer a consistent game changer.
Colston? Eh………..very good because of Drew Brees. Put him on the Bills, not so good.

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

freeney has 8 sacks in 7 games this year

good for 3rd in the league. if he’s not elite, then is Jared Allen the only elite De in the league?

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i would respectfully point out that Indy is very often playing with a lead.

doesn’t diminish freeney’s talent – he’s a great player – but if Buffalo was playing with a decent lead most of the time – I don’t think its a stretch to see Schobel and Kelsey approaching, or combining for, those numbers.

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

but your point is well taken

if you have the elite guys at the right position, it doesn’t take many.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 3:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In many cases, it is, indeed, that simple.

Indy has more than one elite player, though. Reggie Wayne. Dallas Clark. Dwight Freeney. Bob Sanders.

So, too, does New England. Randy Moss. Dan Koppen. Vince Wilfork.

New Orleans might be the exception – Marques Colston is certainly excellent, and Darren Sharper’s had an outstanding career.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And two of them from the U of I – but I’m still not gonna be a homer and call them “elite.”
Sanders can’t stay on the field, but is very, very good when he has a helmet on.
Dallas Clark, much like Dwight Clark, is predominantly a beneficiary of the system.

I’ll give you Wilfork. I over looked him. Which, considering his girth, is difficult. :)

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Without a doubt Reggie Wayne, because he can hurt you at any level of the field.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would argue that it depends on the system, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Personally, if I were Buffalo’s GM, I’d trade Lee Evans for Dewayne Bowe straight up.
If I’m building a team, I want big, bruising WR’s in Buffalo. Not speed merchants.

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Logan Mankins is one of the best guards in the league too.

I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute

by kaisertown on Nov 3, 2009 3:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Randy Moss isn’t elite?

by Bills Prof on Nov 2, 2009 3:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry if it sounds like we are piling on, JPH and I posted at the same time.

by Bills Prof on Nov 2, 2009 4:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree Brian, but you would have to count Lynch as a cornerstone simply because you invested a 1st round pick on him and hes still very young with a lot of potential. If this guy had a good O-line to plow some holes he would be very dangerous trust me. My seats are corner endzone and I can see the holes these guys have to run through. There are no holes for these guys, but when there are, they make great cuts. Lynch had some great cuts in yesterdays loss and looked solid despite his one drop screen pass that still was a tough catch to make.

by csc06258 on Nov 2, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Here We Go:

OL: Wood/Levitre/Butler/Bell & Meredith as swings. I think they first three get better, the other two are two raw…we need a good OT, on either side. But I think the latter two were put on the list thanks to either a) injuries, or b) the no-huddle (athleticism). I don’t know if in a traditional offense, either of them stays.

WR: Johnson/Hardy/Reed. Evans in my mind has to have a mid-range WR to make him legit. And he’s getting older, so age will take away his speed and he is not a possession receiver. He can go. I like Reed for leadership ability if nothing else. Need one guy a side who has been through the hard times.

TE: Nelson/Schouman

RB: Not sure. Lynch, I guess, but he just does not seem elusive to me, and he’s not big enough to be Brandon Jacobs. I was hoping he’d be Michael Turner, but he just doesn’t have the extra gear.

DL: Williams/Maybin/Ellis. Makings of a good rotation if they can bulk up Maybin and move him around. People thought Dumervil (Broncos) was a bust his first couple years in the league, but in the right system, he’s thriving. Maybe we find that system for Maybin. The others are either too old, too mediocre, or too injury prone to keep.

LB: Poz. That’s it.

DB: Whitner/McGee/Byrd. Maybe McKelvin. Maybe Nic Harris (too small to be a LB). McGee is my one guy who has been through the hard times on D. Gutsy.

ST: Lindell/Morman. Both solid. Unit as a whole having an off year.

What we need: Speed Rush off the edge (DE/OLB);

Big DT;

OT (either side acceptable).

Speed WR with size.

Run stopping DE.

Third-down RB.

New training staff/MASH unit.

Oh, and a QB. Doesn’t have to have a cannon arm, doesn’t have to be Michael Vick. Just has to have the right mentality. Accurate. Read a D BEFORE the snap, not afraid of a slant or an INT, willing to just try and gun it in there or go deep, someone the team can rally around, not vice versa.

I gotta think with that line up, your cap number is WAY down. No TO, no Evans, no Schobel or Stroud. Rebuilding? Hell yeah. No more half-rebuilding on one side of the ball or the other. No ‘plugging-in’ decent vets to make it seem like there are only minor holes to fill to have an elite unit. Start from scratch. We have some pieces. Let’s see if they amount to anything.

by T McGee on Nov 2, 2009 2:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Boil it down further. I mean seriously – you dropped Chris Ellis’ name. He’s been active exactly once this season – his name doesn’t belong in a “franchise cornerstone” discussion. Think bigger – think ELITE. :)

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh. Well, if you’re talking ELITE…like Aaron Rodgers, Andre Johnson, Steve Hutchison, Albert Haynesworth, Asomugha ELITE?

Then, I’ve got nothing.

I was just going for who we should keep to build a team around. And to quote my father (before a game, at least): “Chris Ellis! He could be the next Derrick Thomas! Just needs a little coaching!” Of course, I won’t say what’s after the game. This is a family website, after all.

by T McGee on Nov 2, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh…I forgot Reggie Corner. He can stay too. :)

Brian – maybe you should have a ‘Who Do We Get Rid Of in the Off Season?’ thread? That might be more entertaining/cathartic, if nothing else.

by T McGee on Nov 2, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?
Maybe Nic Harris (too small to be a LB)


Sorry, but he is the biggest LB on our team…and he is bigger than Poz who you listed

by NorCal BillsFan on Nov 2, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Is he really? He doesn’t look it. Maybe Pox is just stockier, while Harris looks lean.

And the fact that a just-converted safety is the biggest LB on our team speaks volumes, don’t you think?

by T McGee on Nov 2, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wood/Levitre

We have to build around these two guys. They have the physical skills, work ethic and killer attitude that we need to ‘define’ ourselves as an offense. We’ve had way too many ‘soft’ players on our offense (especially the o-line) for years now. We need to develop an attitude and these guys both have it. I have no doubts that these two guys can and will be cornerstones of our o-line no matter what system we decide to run. And if we can compliment them with other players with similar attitudes, then we’ll start scoring some points.

by CBATL32 on Nov 2, 2009 2:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It's utterly depressing

That we’ve done this type of thread long before the next season the last couple years … :*(

by sabre74kkn on Nov 2, 2009 2:42 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I always do it during the bye week. Even if the Bills were 8-0 right now, I think this type of post would have value (though it would be more entertaining, obviously).

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

more depressing

is going through this exercise and determining there may be 2-3 people that fit Brian’s definition. That’s a sad comentary on the “rebuilding efforts” we’ve undertaken.

by fansince60 on Nov 2, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you look at every team in the NFL you probably only come up with a few names. The rest are important role players. The word ELITE is used for a reason.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I also find it interesting

That Beast Mode’s name hasn’t been brought up, which really leads me to believe that you don’t need a blue – chip RB to have success in this league, but 2-3 really good ones like Denver and New England have had over the years and NO andBaltimore seems to have this year.

by sabre74kkn on Nov 2, 2009 2:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It has been…. often.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great topic!

I guess the challenge is to identify a cornerstone, elite player – which is very hard when the evidence you have to go on is their performance within a predominantly screwed up, dysfunctional organization.
So, I’ll throw this out : what Bills players would it be reasonable to think other teams would love to have, like to have, and wish they’d have drafted, or an interviewing Head Coach would like to develop?

Again – I’m a believer that the talent level in the NFL is pretty equal, but its a system and coaching that rises above.

Love to have:
Lee Evans, Marshawn Lynch

Like to have:
Stroud, Schobel, Pos, McGee, McKelvin

Wish we’d drafted them:
Wood, Levitre, Byrd (already mentioned, but bears mentioning again)

Too early to tell, but if I were an interviewing Coach, I’d be intrigued:
Nelson, Hardy, Maybin

Quick – name me a star on Devner’s defense….
Or Nawlins D. (and Gregg Williams coordinating that unit really upsets my stomach.)

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 3:05 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

What it boils down to is the fact that we have good players and no great, or elite, players. Would Lee Evans have 80 catches, 1,200 yards and 9 TD’s if he played with Peyton Manning? Probably, but that’s because Peyton is great, not Lee. He is a good player. Could Poz be a good player on an elite defense? Probably. But when he is counted on to be one of, if not the, elite player on our defense, he doesn’t look so good.

Because in the past 9 years we have failed over and over to get elite players early in the draft we are suffering. Yes, we have gotten some late round guys that are good, but that is not going to get you a Super Bowl.

If this team were a puzzle, we have a whole ton of middle pieces, and few if any corner pieces. Or…cornerstones :)

"Who is Beethoven?" - Marshawn Lynch

by Brainwave on Nov 2, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this is exactly right.

Brainwave, let’s be friends.

I wrote this in a fan post a while back: I think our defense (especially the linebacker unit) is comprised of guys who can be NFL starters, but have to be the weakest guy or second weakest guy in their unit (read: DB’s LB’s DL’s)

For instance, Mitchell can definitely be a starter on a really good football team (ask the giants), but if he’s your best linebacker, and he is ours, then your LB’s are in a lot of trouble. Schobel can be on a good team, but he needs to be your Phil Hansen, not your Bruce Smith. the list goes on and on.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think we agree. Its a team sport. How many “early in the draft” picks were on the Bills 90-94 SB teams? Kelly dropped into the Bills lap after the USFL folded. Thurman was a neglected pick due to a college hoops knee injury. On and on. Andre Reed 4th round. Where did Kent Hull go to college? Was he even picked in the NFL draft?
Team game.

The coin has two sides. As mentioned above – Albert Haynesworth is considered “elite.” Skins are worse than the Bills. Nmandi Ashomunga is considered “elite.” Raiders may never see the light of day as long as Al Davis breathes.

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jimbo did fall into our lap, but he also was picked by the Bills in the first round. Bruce was the cornerstone of our defense for a decade and a half and he was the first overall pick. Thurman was a first round talent that fell to the second round and he was also our first pick that year. I digress…

I know you can’t judge a team on whether or not they cashed in on their first round pick every year. But if you can’t find a cornerstone for your team in the first round the past 9 years, it is a telling sign that the guys upstairs are not doing a good enough job to build a contender. Finding good players in the first round is not difficult. Especially when you’re usually picking in the top 10-15. Finding elite players IS difficult, and that is why the teams that draft well usually end up not stringing together 7-9 seasons.

"Who is Beethoven?" - Marshawn Lynch

by Brainwave on Nov 2, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

All I’m trying to get across is that “elite” players – HOF players coincidentally – come along very very infrequently. For any team. We, as Bills fans, were spoiled by 88-94. Kelly, Smith, Thomas, Talley, Reed, et. al.

I would argue that there probably are not 30 “elite” players – as this discussion seems to be going – in the entire NFL. And half of them would be QB’s. Is a QB driven league, and what we have is not enough.

Its off topic – but just for once I’d love to see the Bills maligned D healthy and playing with a 10 point lead.

by LeClaireBill on Nov 2, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A good point

This is a QB and coach driven league. And we have one of the worst tandems out there.

"Who is Beethoven?" - Marshawn Lynch

by Brainwave on Nov 2, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It could be worse. We could have Mangini/Anderson. Or, * shudder * Russel/Cable.

Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

by WhyBillsWhy on Nov 2, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You guys are all spot on.

What I think the Bills are lacking is an ‘impact’ player on D. Back in the day, we had Bruce, and Bennett. That made things easier for Hansen, Conlon, Odomes, Kelso, Wright…the list goes on. And by having those two guys, and opponents having to account for them, the others became All-Pros.

OK, maybe not Kelso.

What the Bills seem to have plenty of are the Odomes/Conlon types, but they are required to be ‘impact’ players because they are the best we have. And that is not a good fit for them, because it exposes their weaknesses, which in turn weakens the rest of the unit.

If Maybin can be a Terrell Suggs or Merriman or another hybrid DE/OLB type, then it allows the opposite side DE or OLB to make more plays, and lets the DBs cheat a bit as a result, helping the unit out. If Shawn Nelson becomes Antonio Gates-like, the underneath routes are open for the RBs, the outs and curls and gos are more open for the WR because the safety is coming up to handle Nelson…impact players make things easier on everyone.

We don’t seem to have any, to my eye.

by T McGee on Nov 2, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 2, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

DJ Williams is a stud too. If nothing else, Elvis Dumervil is playing like a superstar.

I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute

by kaisertown on Nov 3, 2009 4:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

uhhh

darren sharper?

Buffalo, that's where it's at baby. - Adam 'Pacman' Jones

by silverstreak3k on Nov 3, 2009 1:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To add to Sharper:

First, New Orleans’ D is giving up more points per game than Buffalo is, so let’s not pretend for a second that they’re a top notch D. And Jon Vilma may not qualify as a superstar, but he’s pretty close.

I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute

by kaisertown on Nov 3, 2009 4:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Moorman

Definitely need a good punter, considering how dreadful this offense is and how they stuggle to put a drive together. Yeah, Moorman and keep the guy selling beer’s by section B-4.

by BuffaloWhiner on Nov 2, 2009 3:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wish they’d bring the earl of bud out of retirement and bring him to bills games. Sells beer and dances to pee wee herman? Now there’s a cornerstone we can build around.

by quantumuprising on Nov 2, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with Brian on this.

By the premise put forward, Byrd is the only guy and he could fall out by the end of the season because of his sketchy tackling. Based on his body of work to date: elite ball hawk. One of the problems with this exercise on both sides of the ball is so many players are part of a “unit” that must play well together. No where is this more true than the O line. Any of the top 3 young guys may very well develope into a first rate player but the current circumstances really hurt them. To a lesser extent, the front 7 on Dee are a “unit” and they are horrible as evidenced by the fact that the rushing defense is dead last in the NFL, worse than the Rams, Browns, Bucs and Raiders. The offensive skill positions are all highly dependent on the play of the QB. Not a lot to be said there. Finally, on the CBs, I can not really form an opinion because the scheme that is played is so soft that you just can’t get a real sense of coverage strength (read McGee.)

by jpheff on Nov 2, 2009 3:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

off the top of my head.

Guys who i think are elite right now:
Stroud
Moorman

Guys who could be elite:
Byrd
McKelvin
Maybin
D-Bell
(Maybe levitre, wood)

Second Tier: Guys who are good
Mcgee
Whitner
Williams
Schobel
Lynch
Jackson
Schouman
Wood
Levitre
Evans
Butler
Lindell
Mitchell
Reed

There are plenty of guys on this team who are good. Part of the problem is that of the guys who i think have elite talent, only 2 (Stroud and Moorman) are playing at that level (and byrd i guess). The others are still leaps and bounds from what they can be.

Another part of the problem is that our QB’s are nowhere to be found on this list.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 3:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Wow.

If Brian’s looking for guys that the next GM will look at and say “we HAVE to keep that guy,” That really narrows it down. I would say Byrd, McGee (even decent corners are so hard to come by), Evans (elite in the right system), Moorman….that might be it.

Lots of other guys are good and will probably be around next year, but this roster might get blown up and then it will depend on what the new coach/GM wants.

by BigStu on Nov 2, 2009 3:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Any rumors buzzing on pursuing the recently-released Chris Chambers?

I’ve heard some Miami/Buffalo interest.

Head Weatherman/ Injury Specialist of the Phinsider.

Bender: Who wants dolphin? Leela: Dolphin? But dolphins are intelligent. Bender: Not this one. He blew all his money on instant lottery tickets.

by Farorefox on Nov 2, 2009 4:07 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea why Buffalo would be interested, and doubt it’s legitimate. We have too many receivers as it is.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Eh, just curious. I'm not particularly familiar with your team.

Head Weatherman/ Injury Specialist of the Phinsider.

Bender: Who wants dolphin? Leela: Dolphin? But dolphins are intelligent. Bender: Not this one. He blew all his money on instant lottery tickets.

by Farorefox on Nov 2, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So did you hear that Buffalo was interested, or did you make it up? :)

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Some other blogger mentioned Buffalo should be interested. Nothing from an expert, just seeing if you guys had heard something.

Head Weatherman/ Injury Specialist of the Phinsider.

Bender: Who wants dolphin? Leela: Dolphin? But dolphins are intelligent. Bender: Not this one. He blew all his money on instant lottery tickets.

by Farorefox on Nov 2, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, if Chambers wants to play right tackle…

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

better than the current chambers we have there

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 3, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No way

If they claim him on waivers, they have to eat his whole salary, and odds are, if he clears waivers, he’s going to be more selective than a Bills team that might get “blown up” in the offseason…..at least I think that’s how the NFL waivers system works.

by bluecollarbuffalo on Nov 2, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Better upside than T.O.

Could we cut T.O. or is he guaranteed? Chambers used to kill us when he was with Mia.

by o.c.blazerfan on Nov 2, 2009 4:16 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Guys to build upon...

D: Byrd, Whitner, Corner, McGee, Schobel, Poz
O: Evans, S Johnson, Nelson, Hardy, Bell, Wood, Levitre

The guys listed above would play with a broken leg if you’d let them! Everyone else is expendable!

Key players not on my list:
F Jax – Mediocre RB/old/only excels at checkdowns
Lynch – Mediocre RB/will probably get in offseason trouble, etc.
McKelvin – Overhyped/good returner, but is not a starting corner
TO – I don’t want to get bashed for putting him on my list, even though I’d like to see him retire a Bill after tearing it up with a decent QB.

They are hard to play but not hard to beat.
- Mike Lombardi on the Buffalo Bills

by Sluss88 on Nov 2, 2009 4:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't know about freddy being a mediocre running back who only excels at checkdowns

I dont know how you put Poz as a guy to build on and say McKelvin isn’t a starting corner. Leodis was getting beaten sometimes, but he has also made more plays in 9 starts than poz has made in 23. And don’t pretend Poz “doesn’t make mistakes.”

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

sick to my stomach....

I almost through my shoe at my computer when reading that someone thinks Reggie Corner is a key player? hahahha

He is not good, even when he does make a good play its against the other teams 4th or 5th option. And, he gives up contain on special teams about once per game, and is a below average tackler

by rcrumpley44 on Nov 2, 2009 4:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I’m surprised by the random infatuation by Corner myself. Useful reserve. But why is he suddenly more than that?

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought you said ’Corner’stones…

Sorry. That was terrible.

by T McGee on Nov 2, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was not terrible. It was hilarious.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Personally, I like guys who are named after their positions. It makes watching less complicated. So….if we could find players named Pete Linebacker and Samuel Receiver, I’ll be content.

But seriously guys, do you really think guys like Reggie Corner survive year 1 of a new regime?

by bluecollarbuffalo on Nov 2, 2009 10:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yea

as a useful reserve.

Buffalo, that's where it's at baby. - Adam 'Pacman' Jones

by silverstreak3k on Nov 3, 2009 1:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

None that I see

When I hear someone talk about a cornerstone it makes me think of an elite player. So far it sounds like everyone has agreed that there is some strong talent that any new GM may want to work with. To me, every player on this team is replaceable.

How many players are above average in league comparison on this team? 5 maybe
Schobel, Stroud, McGee, Byrd, Moorman, Evans

How many are elite players? Byrd is the closest right now, but it has only been 4 games and his tackling is only average. I truly hope he is this good, but it is to early for me to say he is an elite player.

I have to agree with Brian… their are lots of blocks to build with, but definatly not any cornerstones,

by Northern Bills on Nov 2, 2009 4:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree with Brian… their are lots of blocks to build with, but definatly not any cornerstones

Well then you’re not really agreeing with me, because I wrote about Byrd being a cornerstone in the original article. :)

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 9:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jairus Byrd, free safety. I’m not ready to proclaim him a superstar yet, mostly because he still has tackling issues and is much more of a one-dimensional safety than the elite players at his positioon.

Maybe not completly… but close I would say

How many are elite players? Byrd is the closest right now, but it has only been 4 games and his tackling is only average. I truly hope he is this good, but it is to early for me to say he is an elite player.

by Northern Bills on Nov 2, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Schobel, Stroud...?

How old are they? No way they are the core players on the team in 2-3 years.

Potential Core players: Wood, Levitre, Nelson, Byrd, McKelvin, Whitner, Maybin but all of these guys have a lot to learn and develop. None are playing at the elite level or are sure things. Byrd is making the best case right now and he needs to work on tackling.

by Bills Prof on Nov 2, 2009 5:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Probably Byrd is as close to an “elite” player as we have. Obviously a cornerstone. He might not be a hard hitter but he directly saved a Steve Smith Touchdown when we played Carolina. And I’m not going to sweat that he got rammed by Andre Johnson probably the best and most physical WR playing the game right now.

Donte Whitner is solid player who still could turn out great. He’s played much better this season than last and has shown alot of growth. Keep in mind he was drafted very young.

Poz is another building block who may just end up being an above average linebacker but our LB core is shattered so he’s obviously important. Linebackers are the type like RBs who can be replaced.

Haven’t seen alot about Kyle Williams but he’s one of Buffalo’s most improved players, he has had games when he was fairly dominant, he’s still pretty young, and he is willing to play hurt.

Aaron Maybin too early to tell but he either needs to bulk up or he needs to be converted to Linebacker. He isn’t strong enough to be a DE. If a new coach came in and converted to a 3-4 he’d be a linebacker for sure.

There are others too like Leodis, overall this is a fairly young team, but just because they have youth on their side doesn’t mean these players are cornerstones or can ever grow into cornerstones. Look at Ray Lewis he is the cornerstone of the Ravens defense but is old.

This space held in honor of Robert Royal known to his friends as "Sweet Cream Style Corn" March 11 2006- February 26, 2009

by pasaluki on Nov 2, 2009 5:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That’s not to say Poz/ Whitner/Maybin aren’t worth having around. Notice I didn’t bring up anyone on offense….yeah

This space held in honor of Robert Royal known to his friends as "Sweet Cream Style Corn" March 11 2006- February 26, 2009

by pasaluki on Nov 2, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

how do you call Byrd an elite player after 5 games? I agree we should build around him, but seriously an elite player in this league after 5 games? I mean most of his picks have been gift wrapped. I mean they are still picks and I am not complaining, but I would call him elite at this moment.. He def has all the tools to be considered elite in a year or two.

by csc06258 on Nov 2, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

EVery single time you post I get more and more convinced you’ve never even watched a game.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 2, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

c'mon man

no need ad hominem attacks…

But yeah, some of the moves Byrd has made on the ball have been unbelievable.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Harsh

csc has a point here. I find myself disagreeing with him/her sometimes, but you make yourself look bad with comments like that.

Sweet home Orchard Park.
jb

by the Uncommon Denominator on Nov 2, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sentiments echoed. Crap comments like this add nothing to the discussion.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

way to get your panties in a bunch!! I said they guy has every possibility of becoming elite. But to call him elite right “NOW” is a stretch. That means you are putting him in the class of Bob sanders and Ed Reed in company right NOW. No he is not those guys right now, he could become those guys. I also said I am NOT complaining about the plays he has made on the balls, he obviously has great ball skills. I don’t see how I said anything that bad to make myself look bad. You probably got your panties in a bunch cuz i said he has had some of his picks gift wrapped. Well, he has, and so does a lot of other great players. He is obviously putting himself in the right positions all the time to make a play. I am just not jumping the gun and calling him elite right “NOW.” jeeze people. o by the way I am a dude.

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He was defending you

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 3, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

not brian and UZ

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 12:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

or maybe brian was, I am confused on who is attacking me once again lol

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 1:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I actually have season tix buddy and have watched the games, read deeper into my post and realize I said nothing negative about byrd. He has potential to be great, I am just not jumping the gun to call him elite as of NOW. Sure he is leading the league in picks, but Ellison is leading the league in tackles, does that make him ray lewis? NO. Byrd has all the capabilities to be an elite player, but to put him into the class of Ed Reed right NOW is dumb because its one season. Ed Reed has been doing it for years.

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 12:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

byrd = reed

obviously im joking. but i think it def COULD happen. now if we can teach him to tackle…..

Buffalo, that's where it's at baby. - Adam 'Pacman' Jones

by silverstreak3k on Nov 3, 2009 1:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve watched enough tipped balls and overthrown balls fall to the turf in the last 5 years to know he has great instincts. Now if he could just get some great coaching and learn to tackle, he could be elite. I don’t think it is a “flash in the pan”, but I also said that about crystal pepsi.

by bluecollarbuffalo on Nov 2, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If we don't don't have an elite player...

then how do we get one? Through the draft? But, seeing as the Bills will probably draft around number 10 again, we’re probably not going to get a real game changer from the start. If this is the case, and a team needs an elite player to be good, then how long until the Bills are a playoff team?

by tpsabres on Nov 2, 2009 5:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It hurts to say it, but follow the Patriots

I think they are the team to model yourself after. They draft well, sign situational free agents, and aren’t afraid to let someone go. They always find away to turn an aging asset into a nice young draft pick.

Draft:
Their starting OL, there starting DL, Maroney, Brady, Mayo, Sanders….

Veteran FA:
Fred Jackson, Juniour Seau, Thomas

Trades
Seymour = 1st round pick
Cassell & Vrabel = 1st round pick

Lots of sound front office moves from various angles.

by Northern Bills on Nov 2, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

but the Bills don’t really have many of those aging assets, and the ones they do have probably wouldn’t garner much trade value or are considered essential to the team (like many comments above refer to Schobel). I hate to say it, but I think the Bills might just have to suck it up and prepare themselves for a rebuilding year, or two. I’d rather have a season filled with lots of promise and potential, but not too many wins, than the backwards spiral we’re experiencing right now.

by tpsabres on Nov 2, 2009 5:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

thought they got a 2nd for the cassell and vrabel trade?

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 1:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think they did

Buffalo, that's where it's at baby. - Adam 'Pacman' Jones

by silverstreak3k on Nov 3, 2009 1:41 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Damn. We should draft Tom Brady! Why didn’t I think of that? :-)

Trust me, the Bills have been trying to get the QB position right for a while now.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

@Brian

I understand the post and it definitely garnered some responses…but I can’t help but think that it is completely useless to do this without knowing who the coach is going to be. I know, I know…we do this all year in the off-season with the mock drafts and such, but there is a huge difference. We KNOW who the coach is going to be and we have a good idea of what type of system they run, therefore making it possible to place guys in their proper positions and guage their potential better.

I started to make a list if players who could be elite, then I got to thinking about a 4-3 or 3-4…we are actually better suited to run a 3-4 RIGHT NOW, except we dont have the NT or the coach. But how do you classify Maybin? Is he going to be good as a DE or could he even be elite? What if you played him as a pass-rushing OLB? Would he have a higher ceiling playing that position than he does as an end? Poz and Mitchell are not my favorite MLBs in the league, but I think they would be a fine tandem in the middle of a 3-4. Our O-line is better suited to a pass-orientated attack, but our QB and our coach are not.

You know what I mean right, a west coast offensive coach might look at Evans and say that he isn’t big enough to run all the inside routes, while a coach with a more-down-the-field approach might see Evans as the go-to-guy in his offense. I read all the posts and their are some good (and some completely whack) opinions shown here, but it doesn’t really matter unless the coach uses the same evaluating process as we do.

I am sorry to hate on the topic for today, I guess I am just a little down and all this talk about next year, honestly, can’t come soon enough. The big thing I took from this post was

The purpose of this post is to identify the current Bills players that aren’t just worth keeping around, but are bona fide stars (or stars-in-the-making) and players around which a perennial playoff contender can be built.

A perennial playoff contender, and I don’t have to tell you, doesn’t begin with the players.

by NorCal BillsFan on Nov 2, 2009 5:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I can’t help but think that it is completely useless to do this without knowing who the coach is going to be.

Then you’re missing the point of the article. We’re looking for guys that could play for any team, and any coach. Those are franchise cornerstones – guys that any other team in the league would be thrilled to have.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I want long-term names, not guys who may or may not stick beyond the first couple years of the new regime.

Wow. That makes for a short list in my book. I’d say:

Levitre, Wood, Byrd, Maybin, McKelvin, Williams, and maybe Butler.

by krytime on Nov 2, 2009 5:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Even shorter

Levitre, Wood, Byrd, and Maybin…….and that is being kind.

"Are the Bills better than we think, or do they just suck the life out of most teams they play and drag them down to their level? - oompaloompa

by Joe P. on Nov 2, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cornerstone Players
The purpose of this post is to identify the current Bills players that aren’t just worth keeping around, but are bona fide stars (or stars-in-the-making) and players around which a perennial playoff contender can be built.

Lee Evans. I read the logic for and against Evans, and here’s my logic for: there are few receivers who can stretch a defense like Evans. Lots of receivers are fast; lots of receivers have talent; few receivers have both. With an upright QB that has time and the arm to get him the ball, Evans is a player that every defense in the league has to account for on every play. Steve Smith was the difference getting the Panthers to their Super Bowl. He was the explosiveness added to a run-first, defensive team. Evans could be that guy for us.

Eric Wood. Offensive line anchor. I think Wood will eventually have the same impact that Chris Snee has in New York: a physical, tone setter that makes the run game go. He also has the ability to add stability to a position that needs some. In a season or two, Wood could be the kind of guy who makes other around him better, not just taking care of his assignments. And Wood has the added versatility in that he can play center.

Andy Levitre.

Aaron Maybin. Joe Gibbs, when asked if he could have one great aspect of his team, which would it be, responded with a great pass rush. Maybin clearly has the talent and shows the effort on the field. If he can put it together, he’s the player that defenses have to account for on every play. If Maybin becomes that guy, the offenses that we play have to start shifting their pass protection to him, opening up opportunities for others. No other player really forces offenses to do that right now, with Schobel being the closest when healthy.

Jarius Byrd. Reasons above.

by Der Jaeger on Nov 2, 2009 6:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I hit post by mistake. I was still debating on Levitre…

by Der Jaeger on Nov 2, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

your calling Maybin a bona fide star? haha maybe in 5 years you hope, but I wouldn’t start him over chris ellis right now if I had an option.

by csc06258 on Nov 2, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting, I didn’t see him call Maybin a bona-fide star anywhere in that post.

Trash the Bills all you want, but at least read the post you’re responding to first.

Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.

by UZ on Nov 2, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I ripped you a little above, but now I’m siding with you. csc – don’t put words in people’s mouths.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I even highlighted Brian’s criteria at the top of my post.

Bonafide Star: Evans
Stars-in-the-making: Wood, Maybin, Byrd.

I thought it was pretty clear.

by Der Jaeger on Nov 2, 2009 9:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

OK. But what has Maybin shown you for you to think he is a star in the making? If you came upon this defense not knowing where he was drafted how could you defend calling Maybin a star in the making?

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would say

Evans on offense

Poz, Byrd, McGee, McKelvin (KR and CB) on defense

Other than that I love the potential of the following: Levitre, Wood, and Shawn Nelson

I guess I’m really at a lost for words right now as a Bills fan. I really thought a win yesterday would at least give me something to watch and be entertained by and an outside shot at 10 wins. Now, I just feel so depressed. But, if this OL can at least show that it progresses from Week 1 to Week 17, that is the sole biggest thing I’m looking at the rest of the way cuz neither QB are going to be around next year playing I HOPE!

MARVelous - "I went from America's team to North America's Team" Terrell Owens

by MARVelous on Nov 2, 2009 6:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Help is on the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

your chocolate cake is in the mail……….

Pass the chocolate cake!

by norcaliangelsfan on Nov 2, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybin? How can you include Maybi?

I know, I know, I know. It takes time for a DE and he’s very young, etc., etc. His performance yesterday was pathetic. His reads and reactions are so bad they neutralize his natural speed. This guy has a long way to go to be average let alone elite.

by jpheff on Nov 2, 2009 6:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

On Maybin

I’d say he’s the functional equivalent of a building block on the roster because he’s a first round pick and a rookie. AKA you’re not going to get rid of him, and you have to make the assumption he can play, or else you need to spend another first round pick on that position immediately

Even if he isn’t playing like an elite player, the next coach will probably have to treat that position as if he is, at least for the next 2 or 3 years.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and of course, he's not close to playing like an elite player

sorry, i didn’t mean to make it sound like i thought he was “maybe” playing like one. He’s barely on the field, and stinks when he is.

Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!

by JPH on Nov 2, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

totally agree jpheff on your points about Maybin, the guy is very very raw for the 11th pick in the NFL draft

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 1:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Franchise Players

None. They are all expendable. Jason Peters is already gone. From the posts above it seems the punter is the best player on the team. Pathetic!

by Greg in UT on Nov 2, 2009 6:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Just to bring something different to the table

I decided to take a different approach and look at how we compare to the teams in our division in terms of currently elite players (top 10ish at their position this year) and potentially elite players – as honestly and with as few qualifiers as possible. Feel free to debate this list as I did about an hour of research but obviously can’t know the ins and outs of all 4 teams, though I did throw everyone’s first round picks from ’08 and ’09 on here.

Buffalo
Elite: McGee, Moorman, Stroud
Potential: Byrd, Levitre, Maybin, McKelvin, Nelson, Whitner, Wood

Miami
Elite: R. Brown, Long, Porter
Potential: Henne, V. Davis

NE
Elite: Brady, Gostkowski, Light, Mankins, Merriweather, Mayo, Moss, Welker, Wilfork
Potential: Brace, Edelman

NYJ
Elite: Revis, Faneca, Jenkins, Mangold, Rhodes, Washington (KR)
Potential: Ferguson, Keller, Sanchez

I’m sure there are some other “potential” guys for the other teams, but this list to me is a pretty obvious reason why our playoff drought continues.

by Andy Boron on Nov 2, 2009 6:52 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

He was 36/40 in ‘08 for a 90% conversion rate. If that’s not top 10 production from a kicker, I don’t know what is.

by Andy Boron on Nov 2, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Brown isn’t elite. He has great games and then games where he disappears.

by Mr. h on Nov 2, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What he does give them is the most versatile back in the league. He’s given the responsibility on each Wildcat snap of deciding whether to run himself, pitch to Williams, hand off to a receiver on a reverse, or pass. So far this year, they have 12 TD’s between them based on his decision making and skills. Even if it doesn’t dominate every game, that’s very good production.

by Andy Boron on Nov 2, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I feel like you’re underselling out opponents a little bit in the “potential” category, as you mentioned.

Miami: Ginn, Donald Thomas, Sean Smith, Chris Clemons
New England: Vollmer, Ohrnberger, Pryor, Guyton, Butler, Wilhite
NY Jets: Harris, Gholston, Lowery

Looking at it from that angle is interesting though. Buffalo has as much young talent as any team in the division. But they definitely lack in “elite” players, which, as you correctly say, directly correlates to their playoff drought.

Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott

by Brian Galliford on Nov 2, 2009 9:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you look back at the list one thing jumps out to me

That everyone else has that we do not. I was a big supporter of Trent Edwards, but I have now come to the conclusion that he is not the answer. The Patriots obviously have Brady, Miami has Henne ( a Parcells pick I trust will at least be above average), and NY has Sanchez. I feel in this league you need to win with both lines and a QB. I would trust a new staff to fix the D, I think time is all the O-line needs, the only thing we are missing is a QB. Look at how quick Atl turned it around with a new coaching staff and an Elite QB. That is a franchise we should try to follow right now. I would say NE but they got lucky in a 6th round pick in Brady. I think there D is more scheme that talent (other than Mayo, he is a stud!!!)

by The Irishman on Nov 2, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Stroud isn't elite

He’s above average, but no longer elite.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 2, 2009 11:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I still think you can consider stroud elite. I also think he has a strong chance to make the pro bowl this year

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 1:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

He’s part of our run defense issues….

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 3, 2009 2:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he’s talking about pure numbers.

Delightfully Ignoring The Truth since 1995.

by NeverendingOptimism on Nov 3, 2009 8:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yea, if you look at his numbers they’re pretty good. I am not a numbers guys but i am just saying he has one of the best chances on our team of making the pro bowl, thats not saying a lot tho

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What about Thomas Jones? Has been at the top of the league last couple years in TDs and yards…

Delightfully Ignoring The Truth since 1995.

by NeverendingOptimism on Nov 3, 2009 8:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My guys

I like what we have in Wood, Levitre. I feel we could upgrade at center and tackle. Id like to bring in a Franchise LT and put Bell at RT. I just have questions on Bell at LT for the long run. It be interesting to see how he handled that switch.

I like all of our skill positions but QB on offense. I feel the O-lines growing pains and the QBs ineptude has been holding the WRs and RBs back. Maybe some help at TE cuz the injuries have shown a weakness there. We need a change at QB obviously.
Under a new coach let the O-line grow and improve and get a QB who can get the job done and I feel the offense could make some large strides.

Our defense is sad. Besides our DB we have no one. The D-Line is just too old across the board to look forward to the future and our linebackers lack talent(and personally the physical build) to play in the NFL. The Linebacker corps will get gutted under a new coach. Our linebackers are undersized(beside Mitchell and Poz) to fit Jaurons style. A lot of them should see the door if a new coach runs a different defense.

End on a positive note: I think our DBs are the strongest unit on the team. Ironic considering we draft 5 DB each year

My proudest moment as a bills fan was watching Don Beebe chase someone down in a blowout. Is that sad?
Buffalo Rumblings

by partyboybackformore on Nov 2, 2009 7:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

*ineptitude

My proudest moment as a bills fan was watching Don Beebe chase someone down in a blowout. Is that sad?
Buffalo Rumblings

by partyboybackformore on Nov 2, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Been following this post all day

and have two conclusions: Great post by Brian as well as great response by the community and, substantively, the Bills do not have a single consensus franchise cornerstone player. Unfortunately, that is probably an accurate assessment of the talent on this team.

by jpheff on Nov 2, 2009 10:12 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Jabarie Greer is having a GREAT game for the Saints..

I guess our talent was sooo great that he could not stay on our team anymore.
Another example.
Get a real GM Ralph.

"A failure becomes just one time at bat if you refuse to let it defeat you." Marv Levy.

by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Nov 2, 2009 10:41 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

money

unwilling to pay Greer

by jpheff on Nov 2, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Our DB situation is such that it was wise to get ride of him for the price he was asking.

McKelvin is an adequte substitution and Corner and Florence are some of the best subs in the NFL.

Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged

by Dyl on Nov 2, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yea Hargrove looked solid too, and he makes plays, something we are apparently going to have to wait for Maybin to do. Well at least Maybin hasn’t punched a Rochester police officer yet lol

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There was no way we could keep Hargrove. As you mention he was charged in Rochester and he was suspended for four games.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You’re gonna kill them for signing Drayton Florence to a cheaper contract (who has also been playing very very well)? They made the right move not resigning good Greer to a better-than-good contract.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

F Jackson, J Reed, K Williams, T McGee, L McKelvin, J Byrd, B Moorman.

I submit that you can basically subtract two or three years from Fred Jackson’s age. Jackson could easily be a Curtis Martin, because he’s a guy, having spent time on the practice squad, that doesn’t have nearly as much wear on his tires as other RBs his age. Jackson may be a cornerstone, but we can’t count on it because RB is a young man’s position in this league, no bones about it. I think Josh Reed has to be in the discussion, despite his age, because WR is a little different than RB. Josh Reed is the most consistent player on our offense for the last 10 years. There’s no reason to think he couldn’t continue to be our No. 3 possession receiver for another six or seven years, ala Ricky Proehl or Wayne Chrebet (though he may never be as productive as them).

The jury is still out on Wood and Levitre, and it will continue to be for sometime, barring a catastrophic decline in their play. These two aren’t cornerstone status, because they aren’t known commodities. After their second year it will be easier to tell which direction they are headed: a capable starter, an underachieving bust, or an outstanding player. Our defensive line sports Schobel, Williams, and Stroud as consistent talents, but only Williams can be counted on to be a cornerstone at this point. Schobel and Stroud could likely be in Buffalo for another five years, but if the right circumstances happen, it would not be shocking to see them go.

Only one linebacker who comes into discussion. Poz is probably not a cornerstone due to his nagging injuries. But he does play just as fierce with a cast and through injuries. I still need the rest of this year and maybe longer to tell for sure. Terrence McGee, Leodis McKelvin and Jairus Byrd are cornerstones. These are outstanding cover corners and an elite free safety. What’s more, these three players make plays. Future coaching staffs will have no choice but to play them every game. Whitner and Scott are merely solid players who aren’t indispensable.

Lindell and Moorman constantly get the job done, both at borderline Pro Bowl levels. Moorman makes cornerstone status because at this rate, he could punt for us until he’s 45. Lindell probably won’t have as long of a career, but he could reasonably spend almost another 10 years here.

Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged

by Dyl on Nov 2, 2009 11:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't like this argument.
Jackson could easily be a Curtis Martin, because he’s a guy, having spent time on the practice squad, that doesn’t have nearly as much wear on his tires as other RBs his age.

Don’t you take more hits and run for most of your yards and wear and tear in practice? Plus he played NFL Europe and arena football, too. He has been taking just as many hits as other RBs.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
"Matt’s pretty valuable to y’all. Cherish him." - BG

by MattRichWarren on Nov 5, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I kind of look at this as a question of who will be our main contributors in 3 years. Of course we could hire a coach who turns things around quicker, but that’s rare. A cornerstone is someone who will be productive for many years.

Byrd is obvious. He’s been our best player on either side of the ball. Last game, I found myself rooting for/expecting Jairus to make a play more than I was on the rest of the entire defense.
Lynch – He’s the only current player an offense could be built around
Levitre/Wood – Lots of potential and they should mature together
Nelson – His athleticism is the best of any Bills TE I’ve ever seen
Whitner – I’m surprising myself with this pick, but I think his skills complement Byrd’s very well. He’s also very young still.

Beyond that, there are players who are solid, but who are not or do not have the potential to be top 10 players at their position. For example, Kyle Williams is a solid DT, but he’s not in the top 25 in the league and he probably never will. He’s played well, but if he were to go to another team, I doubt any of us would be clamoring for his return. As for Evans, Schobel, and Stroud, they’re getting on in years and won’t be around if/when the Bills become a consistent contender.

by Dr. Brackish Okun on Nov 2, 2009 11:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I think you can still count evans in there, he is not “old” by any means, and he has an additional 3 years on this team after this year, so I think he could be considered a player you can build around

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Franchise Cornerstones....

It all depends on what is considered a franchise cornerstone. You say it’s a player that is worth bringing back next year, is a (potential) star and is someone the team needs to build around. I tend to agree, especially with the last two criteria.

Let’s see if we can use a bit of deductive reasoning to determine who might actually be a franchise cornerstone. Remember, this is just my opinion!

There are a number of players who should and will return next season. I’m not going to include the players who might be back (Kelsay, TO, etc), but instead guys who are more than likely going to return unless something surprising happens. These don’t have to be starters either. There are some guys that are worth bringing back, but if it’s a question, then they aren’t franchise cornerstones anyhow. I’ll include the following in this category:

Bell, Byrd, Corner, Evans, Florence, Hangartner, N. Harris, Jackson, Sp. Johnson, St. Johnson, Lankster, Levitre, Lindell, Lynch, Maybin, McGee, Moorman, Nelson, Posluszny, Schobel, B. Scott, Stroud, Whitner, Williams, Wilson, Wood, Butler, McKelvin, Mitchell, Schouman, Hardy

There aren’t too many players that are also stars or potential stars. I’m not going to use this term too loosely and include any young guy I think might still have a chance at becoming a star. I’m going to use players who I think actually have the talent, skill and mindset to become one. I could be wrong about including some of these guys and excluding others. I’d include:

Byrd, Evans, Levitre, Lynch, Maybin, McGee, Moorman, Nelson, Schobel, Stroud, Wood, McKelvin

Finally, what players, based on age, ability and potential are guys the team needs to build an offense or defense around? Or at the very least, with them as one of the major components. This will be very subjective, but I will try to explain…I will bold the players I think are players to build around.


Byrd – Showing big play capability, something this team hasn’t had in years (decades?). He might not be the most athletic safety in the league or develop into a great run defender, but he can become the leader of our secondary with his play.

Evans – He has the skill, but never seems to put it together. I don’t think he’s a top WR in the NFL, or even a #1, but he has the ability (and now the contract) that you build around. With a much better QB, Evans would be posting much better numbers.

Levitre – I say no because his ceiling is limited. He doesn’t have the greatest physical gifts and isn’t that big for an interior lineman. He’ll be a good player for us, but not one you build a line around.

Lynch – He’s a good RB, but not great. We’ve seen how replaceable he can be and if you aren’t an absolute stud RB (Peterson, Jones-Drew, S. Jackson, etc), you aren’t someone a team builds around.

Maybin – I’d like to believe Maybin would be one, but my gut says he isn’t. Watching him play doesn’t lead me to believe he’ll ever turn into a star. He doesn’t look smooth trying to get to the QB (at least so far) and doesn’t look like a guy who will ever be much help against the run, due to size limitations. I think he’ll become a very good player, but not a star/building block. I’m hoping he can become a poor man’s John Abraham with a little more run stopping ability…

McGee – I really like McGee, but I don’t think he’s quite good enough to be considered a building block. He’s not going to get any better, so he is what he is. A good, solid #1 CB.

Moorman – I say yes only because he’s the ST captain and routinely one of the best at his position in the league. You can build a good punt unit around a top punter.

Nelson – He has a high ceiling and all the athleticism in the world. The question is whether he develops fully, and actually can stay on the field. He’s too much a work in progress to consider him a building block. You also don’t see too many offenses built around a TE.

Schobel/Stroud – No, simply because of age. Five years ago, yes. They are both in decline and are better suited to be secondary stars at this stage of their careers. You don’t build around players like this.

Wood – I say yes to Wood because his upside is greater than Levitre’s, IMO. He hasn’t had a great rookie season, but has shown flashes of dominance. His potential to anchor the OL at the center position in the future make him a guy that you could build an OL around.

McKelvin - He’s been pretty bad at CB so far in his career, but his talent is undeniable. He has a long way to go before he’s considered a great CB, but the potential is definitely there. Like Wood, he has the ability to become a star at his position. I wish it was a guarantee though.

Therefore, upon further review, I’d say the true franchise cornerstones of this team are Jairus Byrd, Lee Evans, Brian Moorman, Eric Wood and Leodis McKelvin. I wish I could say I saw more cornerstones on this roster, but I don’t. This team lacks top end talent so badly.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 3, 2009 12:50 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

This team lacks top end talent so badly.

Just imagine what we would be looking at if this draft class was more similar to 2 and three years ago.

Sweet home Orchard Park.
jb

by the Uncommon Denominator on Nov 3, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Great response/reaction

I agree with almost all your points. I like to think Wood has had a pretty solid rookie season. Every time I spend watching a full play just on him he dominates his guy. I like to hope Maybin becomes good too but I don’t see it happening as well. Your final picks are spot on and would like to add Lynch to the mix. I agree about what you said about RB and how they’re replaceable; but since we spent a 1st rounder on Lynch and he is young with a lot of talent, he strikes me as one of the few bright spots for this offense now and for the future

by csc06258 on Nov 3, 2009 1:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

nice post.

agree with it. but i think people might be selling lynch short a lil bit. is he elite right now? maybe not, but is he def above avg? i would say yes. i say this with the thoughts and memories and last year and the year before when he was the ONLY offensive option. (except for those few days when losman started and every ball went to evans). and knowing they stacked the box, and knowing we had a horrible line, he still made respectable numbers. i think with a good line, and receiving threats, lynch is elite. so i put him in the same category as evans.

i wish i could put poz on this list. but truth be told, he hasnt done anything to warrant it. again hes an above-avg player that can do alot of things well. but does he do them on an elite level, no, i really dont think so. but i think hes the best lb on this team (and honestly i could see a new regime dropping kawika) and that deserves something i guess.

Buffalo, that's where it's at baby. - Adam 'Pacman' Jones

by silverstreak3k on Nov 3, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

oh

i also think mcgee is a conerstone. hes always been solid in coverage and good against the run. hes a consistent corner. and cb is maybe one of the hardest positions to play. i think you can really build a top-flight defense around byrd, leo and mcgee. there is something to be said about bringing some veteran leadership to the defense, and i dont know another stand up guy and hard worker id rather have byrd and leo learn from (not to mention a high character guy).

Buffalo, that's where it's at baby. - Adam 'Pacman' Jones

by silverstreak3k on Nov 3, 2009 1:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In these posts there seems to be a lot of different interpretations of what a cornerstone is. In my opinion, we are getting true franchise cornerstones confused with:
A.) someone who is paid like one
B.) someone who might become one

If a new coach came in they would obviously have to deal with contracts as they stand. That includes paying a lot for the limited production that some players have been showing. It also means utilizing young, cheap talent. There are players that are too good value for money to be realistically let go. However, these guys are not cornerstones.

As an excercise, imagine if every player in the NFL went into a draft, but each team was allowed to withhold 3-5 players. The catch is that they would have to pay these players the average of the top 5 wages for their position (say for a 5 year contract). Presumably you would want to keep the players that are so good you don’t want anyone else to get them. Who would we keep?

Moorman? – Probably, he has proved his worth and as Kurupt mentioned above is the sort of player you could build a special teams unit around.

Anybody else? – You might as a head coach take a gamble that some combination of Wood, Levitre, Maybin, McKelvin and Byrd are going to live up to their potential. But would it be worth it compared with the potential to draft?

I would argue that we have a number of solid, dependable players and a number with high potential, but few cornerstones. Whether those with potential are really cornerstone players will probably have to wait until the end of the season (or beyond!).

by AussieBill on Nov 3, 2009 2:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I like this take on the situation

Going by these rules, Moorman and Stoud would probably be the only guys that I would keep, and only because their franchise tags are so low – $2.483 million for P and $6.058 million for DT. I’d love to keep McGee as well, but the franchise tag for CBs in ‘09 was $9.957 million – a bit too much for someone who doesn’t produce many turnovers.

by Andy Boron on Nov 3, 2009 7:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He's been mentioned a few times, but..

I think Dreyton Florence has played extremely well (even before Leo went down). I would like to see him as a cornerstone for this team for some years to come. Problem is, our only cornerstones on this team seem to be coming from the defensive backfield.

by Slick Shifty on Nov 3, 2009 9:32 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Florence

He turns 29 next month and is under contract for next season only. He’s played very well for us so far, and been the only CB that is looking to be physical out there. However, I don’t think he’s exactly the kind of player you build around. He’s the kind of player that is one of the bricks being laid on top of that foundation. Good player, does some things very well, but has limitations (age, playmaking, role) that keep him from elevating.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Nov 3, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

SB Nation's home for daily Buffalo Bills coverage.

Community Guidelines

Start posting about the Bills »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Sucks_small
2nd Annual Buffalo Rumblings NCAA Tournament Challenge
Picture_2_small
OBD - So far so good, I am quite impressed.
Sisters1_hthumb_small
MMQB - Yes - Peter King

Recent FanPosts

Gbbongiovanni_small
Eagles to Move QB, Mcnabb to Buffalo?
Small
The Lines
3516834896_efb46f58b7_small
Remember what we have NOW.
F58_small
?s for former NFL Scout Russ Lande
Small
Why So Many QBs Bust
33_small
Foote signs with Steelers
Small
my newest mockish draft with trades
Duncan_small
Quinn and LT
Small
Schobel to Saints?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Photo link

Lions Bringing In LT Okung, DT McCoy In For Visits

Photo link

Giants Win Coin Toss, Will Open New York Stadium

Washington Redskins quarterback Jason Campbell (17) is sacked by Atlanta Falcons' Kroy Biermann during the first quarter of an NFL football game Sunday, Nov. 8, 2009, in Atlanta. (AP Photo/John Bazemore) link

The Falcoholic Interviews Falcons DE Kroy Biermann

More from SBNation.com >

Latest NFL Headlines from SB Nation

Hogs Haven
Draftix Season Ticket Sharing (Sponsored Post)
Mocking The Draft
Intersite Mock Draft: MTD represented at pick #26
Mocking The Draft
Lions looking into top players Okung, McCoy

Editor-in-Chief

Ronswanson_small Brian Galliford

Editors

Sucks_small Kurupt

Mrsinister03_small sireric

Billshomer_small MattRichWarren

Authors

Dynamics_small Ron From NM

Slide1_small Der Jaeger

Nfl-toronto_small kaisertown