A closer look at Tim Tebow
Editor's Note, by Brian Galliford: This was too good to not end up on the front page. Der Jaeger is part of Rumblings' small scouting team - yes, we're currently working behind the scenes, grading prospects - so expect to see more work like this in the coming months. End Note
This is bound to be replied to with lots of angst, but I've wanted to write about Tim Tebow for a while. First, I'm admittedly a Gators fan who has followed and cheered for the Gators and Tebow. Here's my best, and hopefully, most objective shot at reviewing Tebow's footwork and throwing motion. I've mentioned in my college reports a couple of times that I think Tebow can make the transition to NFL QB. Here's why I think that. (Some of this is reiterated from the Sam Bradford thread).
Footwork
Living in the Southeast, I've watched Tebow play almost every game, and have really focused on his footwork. When you focus just on Tebow, and not the game around him, you’ll notice that when everything is right regarding his footwork, his ball comes out on target, with proper velocity, and with a good spiral.
But that doesn’t happen often.
Tebow does not transfer his weight properly from his back foot to his lead foot, and then follow through with his back foot in front of his lead foot. His back foot often kicks to the side. This greatly affects velocity and accuracy. It also makes his ball float at times, and effects his arm follow through, leading to a wobbly ball.
Tebow is inconsistent pointing his lead foot at his receiver. This affects accuracy. He over-steps with his lead foot, particularly when he tries to fit the ball into a tight window. This affects his velocity, and the ball either sails or he drills it into the ground in front of the receiver. All of this is able to be fixed. [Norm Chow was working on this with Jay Cutler at the 2006 Senior Bowl]
Throwing motion
A lot is going to be made about Tebow’s elongated throwing motion. Here are some references to other NFL quarterbacks with awkward throwing motions or dips in their throwing motion. I apologize up front about the music with Rivers and Leftwich.
Philip Rivers 2008
Rivers holds the ball lower than most NFL QBs, though it's not as dramatic as when he was at NC State. His low hold point puts the ball into a dip on some of his throws, particularly when he's running or pressured. He snaps through his throwing motion so fast that it's not as noticable and not detrimental, but you can tell especially in this video when he's rolling left and throwing to the left.
Something to keep in mind as well: when Rivers entered the draft process, he was a second-round prospect that many disliked due to where he held the ball and throwing mechanics. After working through those issues to some degree at the Senior Bowl, he quieted enough doubters to get drafted No. 4 overall. He's worked on them enough that they are irrelevant today.
Byron Leftwich 2008
Tebow brings the ball down just as low as Leftwich does. Leftwich is more elongated from the dip point to release point. He has a classic overhead throwing motion, similar to Jim Kelly's. From that low dip point to the overhead release, it's like watching a clock hand wind. He does snap through it quick, but the motion itself hinders how fast he can cycle through.
Tebow
Like his footwork, Tebow is extremely inconsistent with his throwing motion. When we talk about his elongated throwing motion, it refers to him dropping the football like a baseball pitcher, similar to Leftwich. Tebow doesn't do this for every throw. Interestingly, he throws just as well when he doesn't dip the ball as when he dips the ball.
Tebow highlights
More highlights
Good throwing motion with no dip:
Deep pass on the post vs. Vanderbilt; Throw back pass vs. FSU; Slant pass for TD vs. Alabama; Corner route to TE vs. MSU; Sideline throw to 84
Bad throwing motion with dip:
Post to Murphy in BCS Championship game; TD to Nelson in SEC Championship game; and most of his other throws.
Some practice work:
Tebow throwing motion1
Tebow throwing motion 2
In the first video, Tebow's dipping motion isn't as pronounced, and he's getting through the motion in a more compact manner than in his highlight videos. The second video is similar, though he doesn't get through the motion as fast, but it's much more compact in terms of his motion.
What does this all mean?
We need to be talking about throwing consistency with Tebow, not flaws. He can throw the ball well with proper footwork and without a dip.
Regarding his footwork, I'm not concerned. It's fixable. QBs practice getting better all the time at their footwork. Tebow has proven that he can throw a good ball when his footwork is on.
The ball dip is more of a concern. I'd be super concerned if he only threw a good ball when the ball dipped. But when he keeps the ball up, he's throwing with similar accuracy. It's not like messing with a natural throwing motion, like the concerns with Vince Young's motion. Tebow can throw the ball correctly; he just doesn't do so with any sort of consistency.
What Tebow has is an extremely powerful arm and torso. He can generate a great deal of torque. He doesn’t have a Stafford-type arm, but it’s very strong.
His leadership is off the charts, and his motivation to win and to improve is top shelf.
That last part is the real key. Tebow's wired a bit differently than most college players; I speak specifically to his will to win relating to the improvement in consistency that he needs to make. Tebow is a team player, and has worked to run Urban Meyer's spread to perfection. Perfect throwing motion was not one of the requirements.
In a month, Tebow won't be worried about the spread option, and I'd be willing to bet that he starts working exclusively with Scot Loeffler (Michigan QB coach for Brady, etc.) on his footwork and throwing motion. Anyone here willing to bet against him that he won't improve?
If he fares well at the Combine in QB position drills, he's a high second round pick, in my opinion. The same thing happened to Pat White last year, and Tebow is a more talented player.
Please feel free to disagree with me on this... I'd like to pass on the Tebow haterade though.
Just another great fan opinion shared on the pages of BuffaloRumblings.com.
15 recs |
106 comments
Comments
Well, I’m ready to drink the Tebow Gatorade, as long as an offensive mind with a supporting cast of coaches can develop him. Everything you’ve said is spot on. His throwing is inconsistent, but his drive and love for the game are right there. If he’s got the brains to break down defenses is something else though… if you have any thoughts on that let me know. To me, its the last, and most important piece to the puzzle coupled with the leadership
It's not all that bad.... Go Bills 2010 !!!!
by killascript on Dec 17, 2009 12:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tebow is pretty intelligent, he just hasn't had reps reading complex defenses
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right
That’s what I mean… he could be a steal in the 2nd round if all the cards land right… he might also find some hype to propel him up draft boards. However, I see a “down” season for him leading the former at best, and I would love to see him in Buffalo
It's not all that bad.... Go Bills 2010 !!!!
by killascript on Dec 17, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tebow's Draft Spot
Going out on a limb, I see Tebow making quality improvements in January. If he plays in the Senior Bowl, he could showcase those changes; otherwise he’d wait until the Combine. I think he makes a great deal of money (eg: draft position) during those drills, similar to Pat White. He rises in the draft as some QB needy team selects him middle 1st round.
And then he dons his hat and clipboard, and spends a year of quality, focused NFL practice reps working on his mechanics.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t see him with the QB too long. Think about how we’d be clamoring for him to play if we draft him
It's not all that bad.... Go Bills 2010 !!!!
by killascript on Dec 18, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you can say that about every spread qb, and thats why people are so weary of them.
by quantumuprising on Dec 18, 2009 8:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is great stuff....well done Der Jeager....rec'd
I am looking forward to the Senior Bowl more than the Super Bowl.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations" – Dan Dierdorf
by Joe P. on Dec 17, 2009 12:35 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
third round, wild cat options for a couple years.
Do you think he will last till round three?
Excuses are a sign of weakness!!!!!!
by VanScottM on Dec 17, 2009 12:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Tebow lasts past the first half of the second round
I also could see him going in the first round. IF he improves the way Rivers did in the draft process, he could go higher in the first round.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think Indy’ll take him at 31, or 32. If they make it to the SB, that is.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Dec 17, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't be surprised if he goes mid first round, if he shows improvement at the Combine.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Bills took him in the 2nd, if he’s there. The team definitely wants fans to come to games. Tebow is the one player everyone in the country knows. No one should say it’s not a possibility until he’s drafted by someone else.
I think a huge mistake for any team would be trying to turn him into a Matt Jones. The kid’s a QB, and he finds ways to win. Don’t mess with him just because he doesn’t fit the mold. Break the mold.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Dec 17, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Indy’s offense is a good fit for Tebow. They’re polar opposites as QBs with Manning being the guy you want chucking the ball 40 times a game and Tebow being more of a grind it out on the ground and then hit the big play over the top type. I don’t think Tebow will ever be a great shotgun QB, spread the field and make consistent good decisions and accurate throws to slowly move the ball type. I think Tebow is best suited for an offense centered around the power running game or an offense with a speed back and OL that blocks east west and open up seems for the QB to cut upfield. I think that allows Tebow to more effectively use his own running ability on bootlegs and playaction and I think it opens up the deep ball better. As a college passer, Tebow survives on the deep ball and I think he throws the best deep pass of every QB in the draft and maybe by a lot. Doesn’t mean that Indy can’t instill that type of offense, but I think Tebow isn’t the type of QB who will best take advantage of the dome field advantage.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Dec 17, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Tebow in a John Fox-style offense or a Cowher-style offensive philosophy would work. But that’s kind of the case for most college QB’s. Roethlisberger threw 20 times a game and was successful as a rookie.
Addressing your comment below, time will tell if Tebow can transition. His field progression has improved, though it’s not good. But he has improved.
I think his drive to be great plus practice reps will lead to a functional NFL QB at some point. That point may be two years from now. The team that takes him needs to be patient and have a starter in place already.
That said, he could come to the Combine and either throw exactly the same as he does now, or fix some things and progress. And then this conversation along with draft grade and projection, will need to be rehashed.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Peyton Manning isn’t going to play forever and if they tailored an offense around his abilities once, I think no other team would be better equipped to do the same thing with a new quarterback.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Dec 17, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, Manning isn’t playing forever, but he is only 33 with at least a few good years left in him and I’d bet he’s still starting for them in five or six years. It’s my belief that when you’re grooming a QB, you want him to be learning in the system that you’re grooming him to play in. And I just don’t think Tebow is a great fit for a team with a dome. You want to use that dome to your advantage with QBs who are very accurate and can zip through progressions so that you can put all the speed on the field possible. I think Tebow is best suited to play with big possesion types and TEs. I think his skillset and personality fit in a smash mouth offense.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Dec 17, 2009 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great post
"A failure becomes just one time at bat if you refuse to let it defeat you." Marv Levy.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Dec 17, 2009 12:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm never going to be sold on Tebow
simply because I don’t think it’ll be easy at all for him to fix his throwing mechanics and footwork. Sure, it can be done, but it’s going to take a ton of work and that still might not pay off. IMO, he has to completely reinvent his throwing motion.
Now if there were some way to predict that Tebow would be able to fix all his issues and become a true NFL passer sometime in the next year, two years, three years, whatever, I’d be on board. I just think there’s too many questions and the Bills might not have the time or aptitude to fix him.
Personally, I think a team with a QB entering the final couple years of their career or time with the team would make much more sense than a team that definitely needs a starter. Teams like Arizona, Jacksonville, Kansas City, San Francisco, Seattle, Minnesota, or maybe even Indianapolis make more sense to me. Also, teams with very mediocre QB’s should also have interest, like Jax, SF, Seattle, Cincinnati, Chicago, etc….
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Dec 17, 2009 1:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
And you definitely earned yourself a rec for sure!!
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Dec 17, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Carson Palmer is a mediocre QB.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Dec 17, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or Culter, even the QB that Jacksonville has right now is pretty good.
by Brennan McCoy on Dec 17, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Carson Palmer has an inflated rep
He had two nice seasons, but hasn’t done much to prove he’s a top QB since. Since the end of the 2006 season, Palmer has a QB rating of 83.9, averages 6.8 yards per attempt and has 34 interceptions in 33 games. Those are mediocre numbers and Palmer has never seemed like the type of QB who rises to the challenge either.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Dec 17, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i say let Arizona take Tim and we get Matt
"Hold ya chin up...nuh nuh nuh...gone" -Marshawn Lynch-
by billsoferie on Dec 17, 2009 9:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the drafting methodology
Any team with a starting QB could take Tebow and a flyer on him for the first year or two while he works himself into a functioning NFL QB.
He’s too motivated and determined to fail IMO. I see him fixing most of this.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that it’s going to be very difficult and take a long time for Tebow to ever improve the techincal part of his game to starting in the NFL caliber. QBs come into the league with far less to work on and still fail all the time.
I also think we’re giving his abilitty to learn a little too much credit. I know he’s a great leader and a hard worker, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s good at improving his game. I don’t think his footwork has improved at all in college and he looks like a sophomore out there sidestepping before he throws, going through progressions at a snails pace and rarely completing passes when he actually does get past his 2nd read. He’s a very raw player and somebody who has been a three year starter should have improved more by now, so I’m not sure why people lump intangibles together and assume that great leader means he can change or that hard work will pay off for him.
I’ve got Tebow as a late 2nd – early 3rd rounder who will go much higher because some team will fall in love with the way he handles himself and his natural arm strength. Sadly, that might actually be enough for him to end up being 3rd on my QB board if Mallett goes back to school. I really dislike the QB prospects after Clausen and Bradford this year.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Dec 17, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me know when he’s willing to fix any of these problems and doesn’t think of himself as God’s (literal!) gift to football.
Bills fan? In Colorado? It's more likely than you think.
by UZ on Dec 17, 2009 1:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
not sure what you’re trying to say there. He’s never said he wasn’t open to fixing those problems he has just never had to fix them in the offensive system Florida employs. He wants to remain a QB at the next level so knowing the committment he has made to football he will seek professional assistance with regards to footwork, throwing motion, reading defenses, etc. It will be a work in progress but if there is one QB in college that will give his all it’s Tebow.
People complain that our past and present QB failures lacked fire and drive to be great but now that there is one you look to tag him with a “god complex”?
by gatornation on Dec 17, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
when has tebow said he was gods gift to football?
either way i believe tebow will do whatever is necessary to make himself a better football player. i think he has tremendous promise, but needs a considerable amount of work. its unfortunate that meyer apperently doesnt give a crap about tebow’s nfl future and refuses to help him on mechanics.
the comment by UZ is a classic “i hate tebow because espn talks about him 24/7” comment. i hate brady too, because of the same reason, but ill be damned if i wouldnt want brady on this team.
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by silverstreak3k on Dec 17, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you’re not finding a more humble and team oriented QB than Tebow. It’s not his fault that the media thinks he’s maybe one of the best college players ever. And it’s not the media’s fault for saying that either because it might be true. People need to understand that the credit players get for their accomplishments in college doesn’t equate to everybody in the world thinking they’re the best pro prospects ever. If anything, guys like Tebow get overanalyzed and overcriticized as pro prospects because of the accolades they receive as college players.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Dec 17, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any way to find out
how many former Heisman winner who played QB went to the Pro-Bowl?
Wouldn’t that stat help us put into perspective how celebrated college QBs (similar w/ all the accolades associated with Tebow right now) translate to the pro game?
Bills fan half way around the world
by moncheri on Dec 19, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Silly Comment
Tebow, by accounts of his coaching staff and fellow players, is the hardest working guy on the team. He’s also said to be the most unselfish player on the team. From guys like Spikes, Caldwell, Harvin, etc., that’s great insight into Tebow’s personality.
I argue that he’ll improve exactly because he doesn’t think of himself selfishly. My bet is that after Christmas, Tebow will be working hard to fix these issues.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Breakdown Der Jaeger
But it is all moot.
I think Tebow is a third round pick, but I agree with you, with a good combine he could be a high 2nd round.
But I really believe Jacksonville will draft him as a marketing tool in the first.
The Gators are outdrawing the Jags 2-1 in attendance.
The Jags are fighting to stay where they are, they need a draw, and Tebow fits the bill perfectly.
I think the Jags will reach for Tebow in round 1 because no one else will, in a last ditch effort to keep the Jags in Jacksonville, he might fix the problems, and he might be good for the Jags, but in my opinion risking more than an early 3rd round pick, is foolish, unless you have other motives like Jacksonville does.
There's not a wide receiver who is fast enough, that J.P. Losman can't overthrow him on a fly pattern.
by The Buffalo Kid on Dec 17, 2009 2:24 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
do you remember Eric Crouch and tommie frasier.....same exact players as prphet tebow...he won't have success in the NFL
Rrrawrrrr, rrrawrrr like a dungeon dragon-Busta Ryhmes
by Moe_frm_B_ on Dec 17, 2009 9:15 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Is the “prophet” stuff necessary? Why do people hate Tebow so much? It’s very weird.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 17, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think its more a function of how much other people talk about that than what tebow does himself.
haven’t heard much out of him, but over the past few seasons, how many freakin times have you heard announcers talk about it? that makes you not want to watch games he’s in cause you’re so tired of hearing about it.
by quantumuprising on Dec 17, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you blame the announcers?
Tim Brando called Tebow the best QB he’s seen in college football in 34 years. He’s a great topic to talk about. And a positive story as well.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And then there was Thom Brennaman’s ridiculous comment:
If you’re fortunate enough to spend five minutes or 20 minutes around Tim Tebow, your life is better for it.
Bill Polian and AJ Smith are gone, so there's not the usual balance between "sane" and "others." Ralph has mentally checked out since 1994. It's a very dangerous time. The coalition for reason is extremely weak.
by thatguy34 on Dec 17, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think its just the way they talk about it, and how much they talk about it. Its like anything else….charlie weis throughout the season, dick jauron throughout the season….it doesn’t matter how good the story is, when you hear it too much, it wears on you.
Also, a lot of them seemed to act like tebow is the only one who has ever done anything good off the field. I guess that’s to be expected when half these guys major in gym class studies and grass growing.
by quantumuprising on Dec 17, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
neither was very big and neither threw the ball in college so please tell me how these 2 are the exact same as tebow?
by gatornation on Dec 17, 2009 9:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brian the “prophet stuff” is me just having fun and Gatorfan your right Eric Crouch is a bad comparison but go check out Tommie Frazier he was 6’2 215 threw for over 4000 yds in 2 1/2 season as a starter and won a higher % of his games then Tebow…Tebow is a great college Qb but players who rarely throw from under center and run option read spread offenses that rely heavily on talent around them to get that run after the catch yardage do not do well in the NFL……examples are any texas tech QB, any Junes Jones QB remember Mike Chang and Colt Brenahan anyone?, Heck to think about it even deeper Urban Meyer QB’s don’t have success in the NFL his offense doesn’t translate to a easy transition to successful QB in the NFL
Rrrawrrrr, rrrawrrr like a dungeon dragon-Busta Ryhmes
by Moe_frm_B_ on Dec 17, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The players aren't comparable
Tebow compared to Mike Chang, Colt Brennen or Texas Tech QB’s (Graham Harrell) does not hold water. The three I mentioned were not as physically talented as Tebow. Harrell, in particular, was exposed for having a weak arm at the Senior Bowl. Tebow has a strong arm. Brennen played in a run’n’shoot style offense with lots of quick throws.
Tebow’s Florida offense features some quick throws. But check out the Tebow videos. He’s passing a lot downfield. The YAC statement that you made is inaccurate. In particular, YouTube the 2009 Florida-Georgia game. Look at the deep accuracy Tebow shows. That, in itself, debunks this part of your argument.
Crouch was barely six foot tall, 200 pounds and could not throw the ball far. Tebow is physically better and has shown he can throw the ball well, much better than Eric Crouch ever could.
While similar physically, the Frazier argument doesn’t hold up schematically or mathematically. While both Tebow and Frazier ran options, Frazier’s option team centered around the option, while Tebow’s spread option was far more pass happy. If Frazier player 2 1/2 years, let’s estimate that as 25 games (which is a low estimate). That means Frazier is throwing for about 160 yards per game. That supports my claim that Frazier centered around the option, passing out of necessity and to catch the defense off balance. Tebow regularly threw for over 200 yards per game, and didn’t do it by throwing 5-6 times per game for big gainers.
I don’t think any of the comparisons you made are accurate.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What you aren’t including in your Tommy Frazier stats is that 4,000 yards over 36 games started would = 111 passing yards a game. those are not great stats. not to mention Frazier never had a chance in the pros because of a blood clot in his leg.
by gatornation on Dec 17, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t mind the thought of Tebow. I think he’s one of those kids that has such a good mindset that he’s able to be taught ANYTHING. Give him a chance, and he’ll devote himself to it and learn.
That being said, I guess i don’t understand the scouting scale of armstrength. I’ve seen often that Jimmy Clausen only has ‘decent’ armstrength, and here you say tebow has a very strong (but not quite elite) arm. Having watched them both a ton, I think the exact opposite. Although Tebow’s fundamentals are off, i’ve never really seen him make a strong throw where i even wanted to grade him with anything more than a passable arm. Also, i’ve never really seen him throw deep that often.
by quantumuprising on Dec 17, 2009 1:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Arm Strength
Clausen came to South Bend with a decent arm. Through coaching, he’s learned how to generate a lot of torque and has a good arm.
Tebow is bigger and thicker in his legs and midsection, and when his mechanics are sound, he can really throw a good fastball. It’s not Stafford-esque, but it’s good.
Watch the videos and you’ll see plenty of deep throws and throws with zip on them.
Also, a wobbly ball and bad mechanics tend to take velocity off the throw. So Tebow can improve his velocity as he improves his footwork.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough. Is changing that big downward arm swing (which makes him very fumble prone) bound to change any of his velocity or accuracy?
by quantumuprising on Dec 17, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The degree of improvement remains to be seen
But he has shown that he can throw well without the downward dip, and throw effectively. The trick is for him to do it all the time, not some of the time. That’s a function of practice reps.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i will be sorely disappointed
if the bills draft tebow. he is not a prototypical qb as we all know. he has great leadership but thats where the buck stops. there’s a reason he is referred to as the greatest college football player ever, because he likely is. his current skill set is not applicable to the NFL. sure he could be developed, but he would be green for a few years. also, i don’t think i want a quarterback that does the job with his feet. the NFL is a passing league, not a run your quarterback up the belly on second third and fourth down. The bills will be flushing another 1st or second rounder away. someone should rent out a billboard and plead to whoever makes the decision to build the o / d line. and sell out for locker in two drafts from now. that kids got it, if the bills somehow got him lookout! also i think tony pike would be a great second round steal, hes also exudes a lot of poise and i think he can do the job.
Later Losman!
by rockybillboa on Dec 17, 2009 1:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Really well done Der Jaeger. I’m looking forward to more break downs like this. Rec’d.
Bill Polian and AJ Smith are gone, so there's not the usual balance between "sane" and "others." Ralph has mentally checked out since 1994. It's a very dangerous time. The coalition for reason is extremely weak.
by thatguy34 on Dec 17, 2009 1:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
Our conversation on the Bradford thread inspired me to put this together. I wanted to write it for a while. So thank you!
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well I’m glad my general skepticism accomplished something!
And after our conversation, I still wouldn’t say I’m FOR drafting Tebow…but at the very least, if we do, I won’t violently throw my beer down in disgust anymore.
Bill Polian and AJ Smith are gone, so there's not the usual balance between "sane" and "others." Ralph has mentally checked out since 1994. It's a very dangerous time. The coalition for reason is extremely weak.
by thatguy34 on Dec 17, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and if we want to talk arm strength,
let’s talk J.P. Losman. he had a lot of “umph” on his tosses and could throw the deep ball. i’d love to read the breakdown on him :)
Later Losman!
by rockybillboa on Dec 17, 2009 1:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
in fairness, he may have been a bit better if he hadn’t been drafted by the bills…
by quantumuprising on Dec 17, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not so sure, he was just always so careless with ball security and throwing into blatant coverages. i see a lot of tony romo in j.p or maybe vice versa. you know, minus the seven year multi- million contract. but i get the feeling with his contributions in the USFL he will get another shot. thankfully, not for the bills!
Later Losman!
by rockybillboa on Dec 17, 2009 2:02 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Raiders signed him a day or two ago
by Brennan McCoy on Dec 17, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL. UFL, not USFL. Jim Kelly played in the USFL. :)
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Dec 17, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if only i could see into the future, as i see into the past :) hahah not sure if i should feel bad for oaktown, or j.p. .
Later Losman!
by rockybillboa on Dec 17, 2009 2:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
not to be a dick
but hit the reply button when responding, it makes it so much easier to read. i hope losman the best. think dick was a horrible developer of qbs and that was a factor of him not being successful.
Buffalo, that's where it's at baby. - Adam 'Pacman' Jones
by silverstreak3k on Dec 17, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Write Der Jaeger...
As a SEC fan myself, I say “Go Tebow!!”… All the way someplace other than the World’s Largest Cocktail Party!!! Quit tormenting our beloved Dawgs!!!
But stay away from Buffalo too….
My concerns with Tebow are more than just in his arm strength (loved the Stafford compare btw :-), or footwork… And your right to say those problems are correctable, and Tim has the drive to work on it… Even love his leadership, and teamwork…
But….
I worry of his ability to read a complicated defensive scheme and to go through his progressions… This may be highlighted by his almost over willingness to tuck the ball and run… But I have rarely seen him look to more than 1 or 2 receivers before taking off with the ball… Do that too often in the NFL, and your season, if not career will be quite short….
by Cinga on Dec 17, 2009 2:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I didn't really cover his field vision in this thread
But I do have some insight on it. Tebow took some really bad sacks this year in terms of getting crushed in the pocket. A lot of that has to do with an increased ability to progress through his reads, and a bit less willingness to take off and run when his first read is covered.
He started to look off defenders this year. You can see from him moving and resetting his feet that he’s working through his reads.
He’s not great at it, but he’s a lot better than last year. He still misses a lot of open receivers. But he’s started to hit receivers that he wouldn’t have in previous years.
Tebow is a smart guy, and he can work himself into this, and he’s already started to. It’ll be no different that the mental work that McNabb or McNair had to do coming into the league. Both were way behind on reading defenses (McNabb because of the syracuse freeze options and McNair because of level of competition) but both adapted.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 17, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Off topic
How do people root for other teams/players in their favorite college team’s conference? If you’re a Georgia fan what are you doing cheering for Tebow?
I find it oddest in college hoops. As a huge Syracuse fan/alum, I could never see myself rooting for Georgetown or UConn or Villanova just because they are a part of the Big East. I want to see those teams lose at all costs.
Would any of you root for the Jets or Ronnie Brown because they are fellow AFC East members?
Maybe it’s just me…..
OK, back on topic.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Dec 17, 2009 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was never a college football fan until I went to Penn State...
I couldn’t understand this either, but it’s the way college football is set up. First off, Strength of schedule matters, so if your conference is weak, it hurts your team in the rankings (for example, it’s better for Penn State to play a #4 ranked Ohio State at 8-0 than it would be for them to play a #13 ranked 7-1 OSU team).
Second, and somewhat related, the perception of conference strength factors into rankings. If a conference is perceived as weak (i.e. the Big Ten) then a one-loss Big Ten team may not get the benefit of the doubt as a one-loss team from a stronger conference (i.e. the SEC). Of course, if you notice, I say “perception” because many times perception is not reality. The PAC 10 is, and has been for years, just as weak as the Big Ten, but you never hear about it. It’s infuriating that it took a FOURTH loss for USC to finally be booted from the top 25 – but that’s the beauty of being seen as a stronger conference.
Third, there is a lot of pride in college football, especially cultural pride. Conferences are split up largely by region, i.e. the PAC10 in the west, the SEC in the South, Big Ten in the mid-west/north east, and so on. Each region has its own culture. Tennessee is much more similar to Mississippi than it is to Michigan. Likewise, people from Michigan have much more in common with those from Minnesota than people from Georgia. You tend to root for your own against outsiders, even if you beat the living snot out of them in your own house.
Finally, each conference has a football “identity” that is unique. People love to talk about the SEC “speed” (which, for the record, I think is complete b.s.), the high octane offense of the BIG 12, or the defensive slug fests of the Big Ten. When a team from your conference is going up against a team from another conference, despite what you may think about them as a rival – you want to see YOUR style win out over theirs’. For me, every time a Big Ten team goes up against the SEC, I want them to prove that our players are just as fast as their guys.
All that said, I still find it hard to root for teams that I have a New England Patriot like hatred for. I deplore Michigan. I understand the logic for rooting for them in some situations, but I refuse to do it. (I used a lot stronger words here, but I thought it best to delete them). Let’s just say, I don’t want their fans to enjoy any victory – no matter how much it may help Penn State.
So there you have it. Rationale for why it happens and emotion for why it shouldn’t. :) Hope that helped!
John I.
by jri111 on Dec 18, 2009 12:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly, great post. I too am a Syracuse fan and I always cheer for the big east to beat the other conferences. It’s good for Cuse to be in a strong conference. That’s a great point with the SEC speed thing. I’m the say way with Big East toughness in basketball and love to see Big East teams out physical other teams. And then consider that college conferences are geographic and people tend to have pride in their area, ie: southeast thinks they have the best athletes, Big 12 loves those Texas players and the west coast thinks that they’re underrated and underappreciated.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Dec 18, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I go to school in the SEC
and for the record, when I read big 10 players were just as fast as ours the hair went up in on my back and I started hissing. Even though you weren’t claiming that, just reading the phrase made me angry. So yeah, conference pride and such.
Here’s how I see it: If my team beats another team in our conference, then I wish that team all the best. I hope they keep winning to make our win look better. But if they lose, I hate them.
I know what kurupt is saying too though- it never made sense to me that Penn state would ever root for Ohio State
Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!
by JPH on Dec 18, 2009 2:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Guess I should have noted my sarcasm
I but I thought it was obvious, while I admit Tebow was a good college player, I’m also happy to see him leave UF so my Dawgs don’t have to face him again… And as I also noted, I don’t want him wearing a Bills Uni…
by Cinga on Dec 18, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tebow WILL make the transition.
This guy is too talented and a very hard worker. He is also a true leader and he will not fail in the NFL IMO. Have you ever looked at Trents throwing/foot work? it is god awful, I wonder y people thought he would be good. After he throws the ball (from his cheek) he lifts his back foot up (his right foot), its pretty weird. He also doesn’t have the arm to make the deep comeback routes or deep outs. I said it for three years now that Trent would never make it. Anyways, IMO i think Tebow will eventually make the transition to the NFL, maybe a 2 year process tho.
by csc06258 on Dec 17, 2009 2:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I would be very glad if we draft Tim, we need players like this on our team.
by rick p on Dec 17, 2009 3:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
awesome read, thanks!
Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!
by JPH on Dec 17, 2009 3:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I too live in Florida
and my daughter is a UF alum so I’ve seen a lot of him. Your assessment is A++. Nice job!
Physically and mentality-wise, he reminds me of Kelly. He is a linebacker type QB. The perfect scenario (if we drafted him) would be for him to work with Kelly. I think Jim could straighten out the “flaws” you mention. Of course, Kelly isn’t interested in that, but, if he were, I think he could really help Tebow transition to the NFL.
I think he has a future. As for the prophet stuff mentioned above, it is media driven. It’s the polar opposite of what everyone writes about the millionaire athelete who beats his girlfriend, is caught with a gun, etc. It’s “news” in their mind. The truth is he’’s a good kid. So, in the sports world, that means there’s something wrong with him.
by fansince60 on Dec 17, 2009 3:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with fansince60 100%
Bring Tim Tebow on!!!! This guys has the b*%^s to run people over and is more willing to give a lick than take one. Yes he does have some flaws but with the right coaching he’ll get over them. I like his winner attitude and drive plus the guy isn’t a trouble maker. Go get him Buffalo!!!
by KHWALA72 on Dec 17, 2009 4:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
giving a lick
in the NCAA 1 is not the same as it is in the NFL. He is going the way of a concussion prone player in a hurry. and yes brian, my B on the USFL. although if thats your biggest beef with what i have to say, i can sleep better tonight. and silver streak, this reply is for you… not to be a dick about it ;)
Later Losman!
by rockybillboa on Dec 17, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha, dude, I didn’t have a problem with what you said – I just got a genuine laugh out of it. :)
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Dec 17, 2009 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you want a QB to run guys over and hand out punishment
You must LOVE Oregon’s Jeremiah Masoli. That kid is a punishing runner.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Dec 17, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup and he might make a good running back in the NFL!
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Dec 18, 2009 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am completely for this... if it is not earlier than the THIRD ROUND
Look I love the guys intangibles, his leadership, his poise… basically EVERYTHING there is to love about a quarterback EXCEPT the physical skills… at least not enough to warrant a 1st/2nd round pick. Anything higher than a third… and we are making a VERY risky investment.
by flutieflakes007 on Dec 17, 2009 5:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Stop this thread now.... its moot. Tebow......
…. will be drafted way too early by some stupid team in the 1st round too early. He will be thrown to the wolves before he is ready, and then fail. And then disappear. He should hope that he gets drafted in the 3rd round and be allowed to ride the pine for 3 years while he learns how to be an NFL QB. Then he has a chance.
Otherwise, its off to the CFL for 10 years and come back as Flutie Jr. His running style will get him killed his first season, and his passing is not NFL caliber.
Bills need to focus on O-line and defense for the first 4 rounds.
"A failure becomes just one time at bat if you refuse to let it defeat you." Marv Levy.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Dec 17, 2009 8:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts on Tebow
1. Tebow hasn’t shown any ability to go through progressions and read defenses. His career at Florida consisted of looking at option 1, maybe looking at option 2 and then running with it. That doesn’t work in the NFL.
2. Quarterbacks that predominately run the ball haven’t had much success in the NFL. Michael Vick has probably been the most successful, but I don’t think anybody would ever confuse him with an elite QB. Today’s NFL is a passing league and the best quarterbacks have two attributes: (1) the ability to get the ball to their receivers in tight spots and (2) the uncanny ability to read defenses and quickly go through their progressions (see Peyton Manning and Tom Brady). Tebow hasn’t shown the ability to do either.
3. There is another reason why a team shouldn’t build their franchise around a running quarterback: shelf life. Football is brutal and players take a beating – especially ball carriers. It is any surprise that running backs have the shortest shelf life of less than 4 years? Meanwhile, good quarterbacks that can avoid big hits (and have good offensive linemen for most of their careers) can regularly play into their 40’s. Heck, by the time a running back is 30, he’s washed up. Franchise quarterbacks are a rarity. Should a team as desperate as the Bills be willing to invest so much in a guy whose style of play forces him to take dozens of extra hits a game when it could potentially shorten his career?
4. Tebow’s intangibles are unquestionable stellar. He’s passionate, a team leader and good natured. I like Tim Tebow as a person and wish him all the best in life, but I just don’t see him being a successful NFL quarterback. At best, Tebow’s a long-term project. At worst, he’s a total bust. For Buffalo, a team that hasn’t been to the playoffs in over a decade now, taking a gamble on Tebow as your quarterback of the future is just too risky. Yes, taking any quarterback is risky, especially high in the draft. But if they’re going to take the risk, then I hope they do it on a player that has shown more ability to succeed in a pro-style system, and to me, that’s not Tim Tebow.
P.S. Go back and watch those highlight videos. There are more highlights of Tebow running than there are of him throwing. Just my opinion, but if I’m looking for an NFL quarterback, then I’m a little more than a bit concerned.
John I.
by jri111 on Dec 17, 2009 11:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Reply
1.) Not true. He’s taken some really brutal sacks this year working through his progressions. The options that you stated (one read and then run) were characteristic of Tebow during his sophomore and junior seasons. He made good strides his senior year. Is he good at it? No. Has he shown ability? Yes.
At the 1:35 point you’ll see Tebow on a half roll, with the play designed to go short. He stops, resets his feet, and goes to the corner of the end zone when he reads that the defense has rolled into the hook and flat zones, and that the safety over the top is singled up.
At the 2:30 point you’ll see Tebow’s first read covered as he looks right. His helmet goes to the center and then left, as he’s moving forward in the pocket. The ball is still in the ready-to-throw position, so he’s progressed past the “first read covered, then run” point.
At the 2:35 point, you’ll see Tebow look half left, freezing the safety with his initial read while looking at the slot receiver running a skinny post. He resets, and throw the 9 route in the end zone. Perfectly placed ball.
At the 4:55 point you see Tebow reading right, then progressing back to the left and hitting the hitch.
2.) Donovan McNabb ran the freeze option at Syracuse. He had the arm, but little experience reading complex defenses.
3.) Steve Young and McNabb were “running QB’s” that effectively transitioned their running to scrambling, and became highly effective.
4.) No one’s saying draft him. The point of the article was to clarify Tebow’s footwork and arm motion issues.
I could show a highlight video of McNabb at Syracuse and show a lot of his running. Or Vince Young doing a lot of running at Texas. Kind of irrelevant in addressing whether Tebow can make transition to the NFL.
by Der Jaeger on Dec 18, 2009 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
great scouting report DJ
I like Tebow as a prospect to the point of pulling a trade to get into the late 1st round to get him.
This was the best piece I’ve read on Tebow and transitioning to the NFL from any source, period. Well done.
"you just have to know there's always going to be adversity. None of these games are going to be easy. Nothing will be given to us" - Paul Posluszny
by poz on Dec 18, 2009 1:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Please NO!
First, let me state that I probably fall into the Tebow-hater category. Is he a good player? Absolutely. Is he a good kid? Absolutely. Is he a good leader? Absolutely. Is he the best college football player ever or the best thing to happen since sliced bread? Absolutely not. And yes, most of it is media-driven. You don’t see ESPN or SI falling all over themselves to write pieces on Colt McCoy, do you?
With that being said – here’s my thoughts:
1) His mechanics – He has had 4 years to work on those things, and they still are pretty bad. Yes, they can be corrected. But hasn’t Meyer et al. been doing that for 4 years with him??
2) Throwing motion – That’s one of those things I’ve never quite cared about. If you need a wind-up like a discus thrower – who cares as long as you get it from point A to B accurately!! Its more about the SPEED of the motion and delivery – which just seems slow on Tebow to me. It takes him a long time to wind and throw. And the D gets there a LOT quicker in the NFL. That concerns me.
3) Accuracy and arm strength – Another area Tebow makes me nervous. These are very hit or miss on him, and always depends upon which plays you watch. I just don’t see consistency in this area. And as far as his arm strength, its there, but he seems to “float” a lot of throws unnecessarily. Don’t know if that even makes sense – but he just seems to throw it out there and hope a receiver makes a play too often.
4) Reading Ds – This is the biggest area of concern to me. Its more a system-oriented issue for me. Florida’s offense runs far too many gadget (or what I call gadget) plays, like WR/TE screens, shovel passes, option-reads, etc that don’t require much in terms of reading a defense. Zone vs. man vs. safety coverage, etc don’t matter in those plays. Often it is reading a single DE or LB and that’s it. Making the transition to a pro-style offense is a huge change, that will be difficult to do (no matter what QB it is).
Enough rambling for now. I just think there is far too much for Tebow to improve on to make a successful transition for quite some time – and definitely NOT soon enough to help out or team.
GREAT JOB Der Jaeger – looking forward to more in the future.
by Posluszny Pollocks on Dec 18, 2009 9:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You don’t see ESPN or SI falling all over themselves to write pieces on Colt McCoy, do you?
That’s a great point. McCoy is a four year starter, has a near identical winning percentage to Tebow (45-7 vs. 35-5), is 3-0 in bowl games and 3-1 against Oklahoma and you don’t see McCoy get near the media attention that Tebow does. And you don’t see people talk up how much of a winner he is like they do with Tebow.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Dec 18, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
McCoy
has never carried a team to the national championship. he can do it this year but he has never done it. if he beat Alabama he will be held in or near the same regard.
by gatornation on Dec 18, 2009 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, but McCoy came pretty close last year when the only thing that got in his way was a last second miracle by Crabtree. Florida beat Oklahoma 24-14 in the national championship game and Texas beat them 45-35 earlier that season. Tebow has a ridiculous defense that nobody else in the country has the benefit of playing with. I agree that Tebow deserves the acclaim he gets and I’ve defended him here before, but I don’t get why Colt McCoy doesn’t deserve that same attention.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Dec 18, 2009 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we stop talking about Tebow is if he was the only reason Florida won a national championship?. His passing numbers were awful this year compared to when he was throwing to studs like Percy Harvin and Louis Murphy who padded his stats with their ability to make plays after the catch. By the way those guys are now tearing it up in the NFL. Don’t give me the crap of he didn’t have talent around him either because Aaron Hernandez is a beast and Riley Cooper is no slouch either, they just happen to not be as explosive after the catch as either Harvin and Murphy.
Tebow’s ability to read defenses is questionable and to provide video of a few instances where he looks off a safety and makes some good reads just ignores the larger body of work where he shows a total lack of development in that part of his game. Also mechanics with some guys just aren’t as simple as being fixed. Remember he’s been playing the same way for four years and it’s not easy to break a player’s habits (i.e. J.P. Loss-man). Sure he may be able to do it in drills, minicamps and practices, but when the heat is on him on the field, will he revert to the same poor mechanics as before?
He’s a great guy and was one of the great college players of all-time. Let’s not overvalue somebody though that was surrounded by some of the best offensive talent and one of the country’s best defenses for the past four years. I mean at best we are talking about him being an average NFL QB. I think I’ll pass unless he’s there for the taking somewhere after the middle of round 3. This team has enough holes to address outside of the quarterback position. Let a team that already has a lot of talent take a flyer on this guy.
by aramnath on Dec 18, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m glad pulling a name out of my butt worked so well in comparison! I seriously didn’t even think of it like that…lol
by Posluszny Pollocks on Dec 18, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You need to come to the realization that...
You don’t want Tebow because of his talents, or what he has proven to be on the field. You want Tebow because of his hype.
1. People always want to give Tebow credit for being a hard worker, smart, and motivating. But for one, most QB’s out of college are hard workers, smart, and motivated. But the difference is those are projected to be better in the NFL than Tebow. So why would you rather want someone who could give a cliche speech over someone who has the natural tools to be more successful in the NFL?
2. Do you really his aura will be strong enough to motivate these veterans in the league? He won’t be dealing with college students anymore. People are trying to fit him into a mold of a QB because he’s Tebow rather than getting a QB who actually has the tools present to succeed and making him into a leader. Which one do you think is easier; drafting an NFL QB and developing him into a leader or drafting a leader and developing him into an NFL QB. Obviously being a leader comes with winning and effort, so drafting an actual QB who could effectively win games would motivate these NFL players a lot more effectively than a cliche speech.
3. A QB in Tebow’s program would have to had shown some success in COLLEGE against good teams before they come to the NFL and play Tom Brady twice a year. Against the best 4 teams he played against this year, he threw 2 TD’s and 4 INTS.
4. Like everyone has scouted, his fundamentals are all screwed up. If it were a simple as him working on it in order to become NFL ready before the combine, wouldn’t EVERY college QB do that? What you’re saying is that through hard work, Tebow could go from a mediocre QB to a great QB. Somehow the stars will align just because he’s is a “hard worker”. Somehow his passes will become less wobbly, more accurate, and get to their target a lot faster. That doesn’t make any sense. There are many players in college who were hard workers with natural talents who aren’t succeeding. Look at Vernon Gholston. And you can bet its 10 times more difficult for a QB.
And what makes you think Tebow is more talented than Pat White? All of the hype aside, if White was 4 inches taller he would have been the #1 overall QB taken easily. If Tebow wasn’t america’s golden boy and he played for any other team, you wouldn’t want him.
You wouldn’t have done this write up and if you scouted him, you’d probably mention that the same flaws that he could so easily “work on” and become successful in the NFL would in fact prevent him from being an NFL QB.
by Rocland on Dec 18, 2009 4:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So basically what you’re saying is you don’t like Tebow because people talk about him a lot. Got it.
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Dec 18, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More like because people talk about him a lot more credit is assigned to him than is deserved. You can’t dismiss his significant flaws by simply saying he’ll work on it and thus will become better. if that was the case everybody in the NFL would Hall of Famers. The point is great college quarterback does not always translate to the NFL-level.
by aramnath on Dec 18, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
physical ability, inteligence, and hard work goes a long way
There are plenty of college QBs who are drafted because they have great physical ability, but are lacking in the other areas. They usually fail. Tebow has all three, but needs to work on his footwork and throwing motion. I would rather try to coach up a kid like Tebow than some kid who has gotten by on raw physical ability but can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations" – Dan Dierdorf
by Joe P. on Dec 18, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its not simply his footwork and throwing motion that he has to work on. You’re trying to reduce it to that in order to make Tebow seem like a more viable candidate. He has to work on his accuracy, his decision making, his throwing motion, throw velocity, and you know, actually being able to throw a ball that isn’t wobbly. And like I said before how could you know other QB’s drafted don’t have those attributes? Tell me this, how would you know that Tebow had those attributes unless the media was feeding you this over and over?
Most other college players work their a$$ off to succeed and become successful. So saying that those exact things are what makes Tebow stand out from the rest conjecture to justify his shortcomings and flat out and disrespectful to other college QB’s who work just as hard as Tebow don’t have his celebrity.
by Rocland on Dec 19, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you are asking me if I personally know Tebow, then the answer is no
I can only go by what I see him do on the field and from what people who know much more than I do say. People who have coached in the NFL like Gruden, Dungy, Ditka, and others who all believe Tebow has the potential to be a good NFL QB.
He has to work on his accuracy, his decision making, his throwing motion, throw velocity, and you know, actually being able to throw a ball that isn’t wobbly.
Fixing his footwork and throwing motion will go a long way in fixing those issues as well, save the decision making. And what is wrong with Tebow’s decision making? Will it need to get better, just like ever other college QB? Yes. Will he need to run less? Yes. But in the offense he was asked to run in Florida, his decisions to take off and run were usually good ones. Der J. has already shown that Tebow is getting better at looking off defenders and progressing to his second read. How many other QBs in this draft are doing better than that?
I am not saying other college QBs don’t work as hard or are not as smart, but I haven’t seen them….. have you? I have seen Tebow along with most of the rest of the nation who watches college football, which by the way, is a double edged sword. Tebow has received more attention, but he has also been under more pressure and scrutinized more than many other QBs. I would have to say Tebow has handled himself well. I would be willing to bet Tebow doesn’t have a Vince Young type melt down when he gets his shot. Now, if you know of some unknown QB out there that we can draft on day 3 and is a lock to be the next Tom Brady, please let us know and give Ralphie a call too.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations" – Dan Dierdorf
by Joe P. on Dec 19, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The point is great college quarterback does not always translate to the NFL-level.
I don’t think anyone’s saying that here. All I read was that Tebow has as good a chance as anybody to work through the many issues he’ll need to work through.
I don’t see anyone proclaiming him anything more than simply a project.
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by Brian Galliford on Dec 18, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All I read was that Tebow has as good a chance as anybody to work through the many issues he’ll need to work through
But thats the problem. Realistically Tebow doesn’t have the same chance at success than someone who is naturally more fit to be a QB than him. He has as much of a chance at success as someone who has the same amount of flaws and problems that he has. The only difference is that apologist expect those flaws to disappear just because of his so-called work ethic.
So if you’re willing to make tebow into a project for your team, you should be willing to make a player expected to go in the 4th-7th round NOT named tebow a project also right? I’m sure players expected to go later work very hard to prove they deserve to be projected higher. And by the posts that I’ve read, a strong work ethic is whats necessary to make a QB’s successful correct? If not, then the only conclusion I can draw is that that people find justifications to make up for tebows flaws.
by Rocland on Dec 19, 2009 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My your logic, there must be a few dozen franchise QBs who go undrafted every year
In fact, it seems like it should be so easy to find a franchise QB that anyone who takes one in the first round is a fool. Boy, did Atlanta waist their money on Ryan. Exactly who are all of these underrated project QBs? Please let us know who the Bills should draft to be our next QB. I can’t wait to hear your conclusions why they can overcome their flaws.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations" – Dan Dierdorf
by Joe P. on Dec 19, 2009 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re projecting a little here, Rocland. You seem to just… well, not like Tebow, and it also seems to have grown to the point that you don’t like the opinions of anybody who doesn’t hate Tebow, too.
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Dec 20, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I mostly agree with you Rocland, but realize that Tebow has strengths other than intangibles. I think he throws the best deep ball of all the QBs who will be in the draft. He has better natural arm strength than the top QBs like Clausen and Bradford. Tebow is a QB, not some athlete that we’re trying to make into a QB.
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by kaisertown on Dec 20, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
3. A QB in Tebow’s program would have to had shown some success in COLLEGE against good teams before they come to the NFL and play Tom Brady twice a year. Against the best 4 teams he played against this year, he threw 2 TD’s and 4 INTS.
It’s funny you picked that as an example, seeing as brady himself went 20-5, and never played a game with national title implications.
Jonathan Stupar won the Heisman…while playing in the NFL!
by JPH on Dec 19, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about his girlfriend? Is that a factor?
by Bill Frank on Dec 18, 2009 10:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, if he gets hit in the head by on of her "guns", it could give him another concussion
She won’t be in a position to start making demands until she gets a ring.
"The Bills have no playoff aspirations" – Dan Dierdorf
by Joe P. on Dec 19, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Throwing Machanics
This is what I don’t get: Tebow, being a strong armed QB, should be able to generate good throws even with poor machanics at times. You look at Roethlisberger or Favre or even McNabb — they can get good enough throws even throwing on their back-foots. The NFL nowadays is about putting pressure on the QB all the time, so I’d say making good throws on the run is BASIC requirement. If Tebow cannot master this trait within 4 years of college play, and still needs to “work on it”, then I don’t think he has the “gift” as a franchise QB in the NFL. Just because he is a hard worker doesn’t mean he can be a good NFL QB — you need actual talent.
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by moncheri on Dec 19, 2009 2:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don’t believe Tebow is as strong armed as people make him out to be personally.
by Rocland on Dec 19, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Tebow fan.
It’s hard to hate a guy who’s getting it done, and in any way necessary. I love the clip where he grabs the errant snap way out of left field.
I am curious if drafting him messes with 99% of the league’s line situation. He’s a lefty, and aside from Vick and Leinhart, how many teams have a south paw? I wonder if it might be easier for Buffalo to develop a left-handed QB, knowing the right tackle would be their first area of concern?
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Dec 20, 2009 11:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

























