Bills O-Line
The problem as of last, I don't know, 5 years or so, is that their is no collective patience. I think fans have been patient, ownership has not. Those around here will chastise me, but I believe the best possible move as far as coaching was to keep Jauron. That said, he and his staff need to continue down the path started by the release of Dockery. If they want to see what this team is made of, they need to put trust in the linemen chosen by the Bills over the past few drafts. Is there not a practice squad player they have been developing for a couple years to give a go? What does that say about what's been going on around here? After some thought, I don't believe trading for Brian Waters is the answer. We need to think about who we're missing out on by not picking in the 3rd and 5th rounds of the draft or whatever picks might be necessary. We may not win next year, but there is a light (maybe?). There has been a plan over at Bills HQ, they just need to stay the course. As a small market team, the Bills need to pick up young guys, develop them, and get them on the field. Even if it takes 5 years.
Now that Dockery is gone, it is a time to reflect. Chances are the first couple rounds of the draft go to the Defense. Our defense is closer to being what it needs to be, and we should all be happy that, more than likely, tose picks will bring us a top ten defense. (At least in points allowed). The offense, at least on paper, had almost all the talent it needed, but woefully underperformed. Get ready to boo. Maybe Preston (not fit to be a starter blah blah blah) is finally ready. He improved starting at center over the last half of the year. He still wasn't great there, but maybe he isn't a fit there. Maybe he was a step slow because he had to snap, which not everyone can do. The experience, however, was invaluable. Maybe he could start at right guard. Maybe the line would be alright like this:
| LT | LG | C | RG | RT |
| Peters | Butler | Hangartner | Preston | Chambers |
Notice how I changed out Walker too? I'm just putting it out there. If Dockery was underperforming, Walker is only average. He did prove to be great depth for the LT position, almost played better there than at RT. I'm not saying he's bad, he isn't. He's just not much better than average. Maybe Chambers isn't any better, but shouldn't we try something? What would it be like to reach 4.5 - 5.0 yds per carry attempted? What is that worth? Maybe I'm not firing on all cylinders, but it takes a long time to develop these guys. Maybe Preston has had his due amount of time, but I want to think that he hasn't. As Bills fans we need guys like him to be good. Desperately. He's probably out the door, but I think he could make it here. It's guys like him that allow us to bring in superstars. If he can play average, we don't need to spend $7-8 mil per year on another o-lineman. Do we really want to spend more than the Pats on our line? That would mean we're missing something.
I can totally see Chambers and Preston on that right side (Put away the boos) adding a new dynamic to our running game. There's a little thing called pull blocking that I believe they could do perfectly. Add that Play Action that we have a hankering for, and we could have the number 1 rushing attack in the NFL. (Well, at leat top 15). All I ask is that you guys think about it and discuss.
Thanks for your time
This FanPost was written by a registered user of Buffalo Rumblings. Its views do not necessarily reflect the views of Rumblings' editorial staff, but are just as valued as our own.
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51 comments
Comments
Walker is only average, but I’m pretty sure he’s paid like an average player, while Dock was paid like an all pro.
I’ll leave your talk of Preston to Ron.
by Hopefulcynic on Mar 3, 2009 2:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nope, Bills will let Preston leave and will sign someone else like Mike Goff or Pete Kendall
If they can’t put their hands on Waters for anything they feel is reasonable.
If the Bills were a drug, I could only hope they were like speed so I could lose some weight as well.
by WABillsfan on Mar 3, 2009 2:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
What has preston done???
the bills have already decided not to resign preston… we tried him at guard before and he failed miserably there.. he did ok at center last seaon but nothing spectacular.. i think that walker is ok,, but like the rest of our line seems pretty inconsistant.. sometimes he’s a roadgrader, other times he’s a big teddy bear that looks like he can’t even move out of his stance. peters shoudl stay where he is obvoiusly.. hangartner will do a better job at center than preston/fowler… we should leave walker at tackle if we had confidence to move him to the left last year when peters was out he’s fine at RT… if anything i think we just plug chambers in at LG, and leave the rest of the guys where they have been playing for the past 2 years.. because like you said we need to trust in our guys that we have been developing, but we also can’t move guys from position to position, that doesnt do us any good
by Shovel51 on Mar 3, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Langston Walker was probably our best and most consistent lineman last year...
Chambers is a capable backup, nothing more. If Walker ain’t broke, don’t replace him.
No lineman we sign is going to command 7-8M. If we were gonne do that we’d have Jason Brown or Matt Birk. Waters will be under 4M a year in salary if we trade for him.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 10:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on Walker
he might not be and outstanding RT, but very few RT’s are. For what we ask of him his is very effective and even more consistant. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
by CanadianBillsFan on Mar 3, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No No No
Walker is an average lineman but he isn’t going anywhere. If anything he is one of the leaders on that o-line. Walker played LT and did a bang up job. I commend him for this past season as OUR BEST O-LINEMAN.
The time to deliver is now and if you fail to do so you will no doubt witness the consequences first hand.
by Cutter3636 on Mar 3, 2009 11:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
BTW -Preston SUCKS
The time to deliver is now and if you fail to do so you will no doubt witness the consequences first hand.
by Cutter3636 on Mar 3, 2009 11:59 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I hope to get the season review on offensive linemen up next week
I look at how each lineman did on every snap. Each lineman is scored on each snap as having done good, decent or bad. I also note which plays a lineman is responsible for killing as well as track who has killed drives. (Any drive that doesn’t end in a TD was killed, either by someone or the clock.)
I don’t throw out purely subject things like, “He sucks,” or, “He’s terrific.” I back it up with the data. The data, by the way, demonstrates over the long haul that Preston isn’t fit to be a starter. More to come.
by Ron From NM on Mar 3, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I am anxious....
Was Walker bad enough to get benched by syrbillsfan? I thought he was the most consistent OL this year.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I did read all of your analysis
What can’t be gleaned is future performance. Yesterday’s poor linemen are today’s great linemen. With linemen, looking at whether they are Pro Bowl or not, doesn’t really give you anything. So Brian Waters, the “Pro Bowl” guard, means you’re getting someone who was great three years ago. He might be good now, but he will get more money than his current contract to come here. We will inherit his KC contract, but inevitably he’d want a new deal worked out, probably right away. As far as Preston, I think he improved from game to game, maybe Ron can tell me otherwise. In the 2nd Jets game he did fine. I also think he is m ore suited to guard than center. And my overriding concern was value. For the at or near veteran minimum, I don’t think you’ll find better. I know we’ve seen a lot of bad from him, but we also started to see some good. He’s not going to have the motivation issues that might plague FA’s we bring in. My biggest constraint when I was putting this together was trying to figure value for performance. As a small market team, the more performance for the money we get on the OLine, the more we can spend on skill positions and on the defense.
What if I put it this way, pay Preston, draft/sign a couple of rookies and get Coles? This is purely hypothetical stuff, as the Bills staff may have seen enough, and won’t sign him anyway.
With Walker, I pretty put that out there because if we’re changing things, we should change everything. I have nothing against him, and he very well could have been our most consistent guy, I just know our run game hasn’t been all that great in his time here (again, probably not his fault) and he is vulnerable to any and every speed rusher out there, maybe we need to go a different direction. I think the difference between Preston and Chambers and what not is that Walker is what he is, he isn’t going to get any better and may get worse. Preston and Chambers still have room to grow, and at least Preston I saw doing that, getting better, growing.
What has been with the Bills needs to change. Sometimes you have to look at the puzzle from a different angle to find the solution. What I proposed may seem drastic, but I think it could work. It would also maximize the ability of the Bills to fill some of the holes at WR, TE, DE with people that would make you all happy.
Also, just because the salary cap is such and such, that doesn’t mean the Bills can spend that and keep everything in the black. I believe their resources are more finite than everyone seems to think. Some of their balking is probably related to fiscal sense as opposed to timidity. They might have $30 mil in cap space, but they may not have $30 mil to spend.
by syrbillsfan on Mar 3, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we’re changing things, we should change everything.
Lynch averaged 4.9 yards a carry running to the right side of the line and 6.2 running to the right sideline. Why take out Walker when Lynch is clearly better running to Walker’s side?
Middle of the line he had 3.0 yards per carry (pretty strinking that we needed a new center guys)
Left side was 3.9
Left Sideline 5.1
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it wasn’t as bad as I supposed. I just threw Chambers out there to create discussion. I have nothing against Walker. I thought maybe Chambers would be as good, and also bring a little more athleticism to the table. I thought Chambers might give us more options as to the type of plays we can run.
Can you look at ESPN and see if you can find Fred Jackson. I can’t. His second half numbers might reflect more on our late season rushing situation. It is alarming that Lynch only carried 250 times! 250! Talk about saving something for later. 250! I thought that number would be 350 at least. It should be anyway.
Arrgh. Thanks everyone who is discussing this with me.
by syrbillsfan on Mar 3, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
250 carries and 50 catches a year....
…..makes for a longer career for Lynch. If he doesn’t squander it by running down Canadians with guns and drugs in his vehicle.
by Ron From NM on Mar 3, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
250 is the same as Steven Jackson
and more than Frank Gore. It’s a good number. Expect everyone’s rushing stats to go up next year.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jackson
Left sideline – 10 times, 6.4 YPC
Left Side – 52 times, 4.1 YPC
Middle – 38 times, 4.7 YPC
Right Side – 24 times, 4.0 YPC
Right Sideline – 6 times, 3.2 YPC
He ran better up the middle and worst along the right side…. interesting
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He ran it SIX whole times outside on the right! You can’t take anything from that!
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Mar 3, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
right side is right behind Butler and Walker...
and he did that 24 times. Take what you want from that. I wasn’t saying it as an indictment of anyone.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or Walker and Chambers.
Here’s are Freddy’s stats to the right side in the games Butler sat out:
3 carries 5 yards at Miami
3 carries 4 yards vs Jets
0 carries to the right at NE
His total right side stats, 30 carries for 115 yards, 3.83 ypc.
When taking out the games Butler didn’t play, he was 24 for 106, 4.42 ypc.
Not sure if that means anything though!
I did read right sideline originally….
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Mar 3, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good info K.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said before, it might not mean much, especially since it’s six whole carries (again). But it is worth considering.
~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"
by Kurupt on Mar 3, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Chambers is the right build for guard
Tackle yes, guard no.
by syrbillsfan on Mar 3, 2009 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Somebody actually wades through my stuff???
I still think I’m the bigger loser since it takes longer to write things than to read them. Woo hoo?
My initial plan was to do a write up for each lineman. I may still do that, though I’ve already done Peters and there doesn’t seem to be much point in doing Dock. Because there seems to be interest in Preston I’ll try to do both the overview and game-by-game numbers. I haven’t run those numbers yet so it will be interesting to see how much, if any, improvement Preston did show and what impact that has on his season numbers.
I think you and I have different views on the concept of value. To my way of thinking value is completely on the field. If a guy is a stud lineman he has terrific value regardless of whether his contract numbers are small or huge. A guy with a low salary and pitiful production is no better than a guy with a high salary and pitiful production. Sure, the lower paid guy is less of a cap problem but a guy who produces on the field is better than either.
Again, I haven’t run the numbers but I think Walker was very consistent. Consistently average. I don’t see a lot more upside in the guy and will get into that when I do his post.
by Ron From NM on Mar 3, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If he really stunk
He did stink, but I thought he improved. At least between Jets 1 and Jets 2 I know he improved (or didn’t start Jets 1 I don’t remember). I think moving from center to guard would also bump him up a little. He definitely wasn’t quick enough off the snap. Eliminate the snapping part, and I think he could be at least serviceable. I know paying a little for a little isn’t value. I think Preston can play at least as well as Dockery. At the least we should keep him for depth.
Maybe I’m wrong with Preston, but maybe the Bills staff is wrong on everyone. Maybe they are incapable of picking linemen. Maybe they just don’t know what kind of guy fits their blocking scheme. Maybe they don’t know what their blocking scheme is. The funny part about looking at the numbers for Lynch is that in September his per carry average was low, but he scored 4 TD’s rushing. When his per carry average was high, he scored 1 or 0. Wonder if that means anything.
I think putting (I won’t say Preston anymore) X guard on the right side along with C tackle, we may have more dynamic options as far as the scheme goes (pullings, trapping, zone, what have you) than what we had before. Butler on the left also could create new and interesting things. Or you have B and C on the right with P and X on the left. I like Hangartner. I very much hope he is as advertised.
I worry about Waters, especially if our season doesn’t start well. I have trouble thinking he’ll be much more than average. Is that worth the cost? No.
by syrbillsfan on Mar 3, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jets gane 2 was when Jenkins was not playing or playing hurt right?
THat could explain the improvement.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ron
I look forward to your numbers. I very well could be way off base on this whole thing. What I really wanted to accomplish was a stirring of the pot so to say. Everyone seems to think the answer to all of our problems is / was on someone else’s roster. Even to say the answer maybe on the K C Chiefs roster. I think the answer might be (or was) on our roster, just the pieces weren’t put together properly. Where I might be wrong is our line was constructed basically “Who’s the biggest man available” from one side of the line to the other. That would mean the Bills staff only considered Preston’s size and not his potential when they drafted him, ugh. I really think he has more to give and is ready to give it, if given the chance. Even if that just makes him average, I am sure it would pay dividends in the long run.
by syrbillsfan on Mar 3, 2009 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re right in that people are too quick to look to free agents. Buffalo’s two best linemen for the past two seasons have been Peters (undrafted free agent) and Butler (5th rounder). Chambers’ sample size is small—compared to the others—but I’m curious to see how he stacks up against the free agents (Fowler, Dock, Walker). My guess right now is that he comes off looking pretty good.
Free agents certainly can come in and make a difference. People focused on Favre and Jenkins but Faneca was a terrific pick up for the Jets. The left side of their line went from pitiful in 2007 to good in 2008.
With that said, I’m on record openly calling for Buffalo to draft a stud interior lineman (preferably center) early in the draft—certainly no later than the 3rd. I don’t see a lot of upside in Preston, a guy who has already lost two starting jobs (guard, center). I’d rather see Buffalo pick a guy in the 2nd (or late 1st) and go Butler-hunting in the 5th than re-sign Preston.
by Ron From NM on Mar 3, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I could go with that
My raving lunacy probably hid it, but really I feel the good teams that stay good draft and develop their own linemen. The Pats do. I think back when they may have started with Mike Gandy type free agents eveyone else thought were washed up, but now their best pieces are homegrown. (Hope that was Pioli’s doing :P) They definitely didn’t build with Dockery types.
by syrbillsfan on Mar 3, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lang from EMU baby!
If the Bills were a drug, I could only hope they were like speed so I could lose some weight as well.
by WABillsfan on Mar 3, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Spending money on the o-line doesn't mean you are missing out
after signing Jake Grove, rotoworld noted that
, “The Fins have $154M in deals invested at center, left guard, and both tackle positions.”
They made the playoffs last year. I think bringing in Waters would be a great move, he’s got 3-4 years left at an above average playing level, he did make the pro bowl after all. We are one player away from a solid line now.
LT LG C RG RT
Peters Waters Hang Butler Walker
That line looks pretty friggin intimidating to me. Peters will be better with a full off-season of showing up and he, Hangartner, and Butler and other young guys like Bell can learn A LOT from Waters. We talk about veteran leadership on a young team. Put Waters on the line and watch our young lineman get better, put Coles in the receiving corps and watch our skill players get better. Waters is a road grader and Walker is a beast run blocker. Butler is above average and keeps getting better, Hangartner is going to be solid, and Peters is a stud. I like that lineup
"Gooood…..let the apathy take root…" - Ron from NM
by poz on Mar 3, 2009 2:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I really like the new sig..... :-)
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ha!
you can thank Ron for that one. When a comment as good as that comes along I hate to let it go to waste!
"Gooood…..let the apathy take root…" - Ron from NM
by poz on Mar 3, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The gray side beckons
Like I said, we do have cookies. They’re just kind of bland.
by Ron From NM on Mar 3, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a little "Just for Men" will take care of that gray Ron :-)
Bad boys, bad boys whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do
when they come for you?
by Joe P. on Mar 3, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It goes along with the dank and bland cookies, Joe
Technically, I haven’t started to go grey yet but it really would go well with the color scheme (grey and black) aboard the SS Pessimist.
by Ron From NM on Mar 3, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Syrbillsfan
I can completely agree with your fears about losing draft picks for Waters but heres an idea. It looks like the corner market is cooling and that we may be able to bring Greer back. If we do, what about sending McGee and a 4th for Waters? The Chiefs would love a guy like a McGee on their defense, Pioli is familiar with him after watching film on him twice a year for a couple of years, and we could save a 3rd. Does this sound doable to anyone?
"Gooood…..let the apathy take root…" - Ron from NM
by poz on Mar 3, 2009 3:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I love this place...
I have listened to WGR for years and learn NOTHING. I have learned more in this SINGLE THREAD than I have listening to WGR. The intelligence of the members here is outstanding.
by TrentEdwardsHoF2018 on Mar 3, 2009 7:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
WGR has a time limit. We don’t. :)
Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more
by Brian Galliford on Mar 3, 2009 8:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And WGR needs rating not technical speak jargon...
They have to appeal to everyone while we have to appeal to the more intelligent guys.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 8:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and ladies if we have any...
don’t tell Joe P you’re here.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not????
I am very respectful to women, am happily married, and have never had a restraining order against me :-)
Bad boys, bad boys whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do
when they come for you?
by Joe P. on Mar 3, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I've never seen you interact with a woman....
so how could I possibly know you are respectful to women? :-) I guess I’ll have to trust you.
Playing Eternal Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008.
by MattRichWarren on Mar 3, 2009 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In that case.......I have some prime real estate in Florida I would love to sell you. Lots of wildlife!!!!! :-)
Bad boys, bad boys whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do
when they come for you?
by Joe P. on Mar 3, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Joe you rascal
put down the binoculars and leave the bikini women alone
by CanadianBillsFan on Mar 3, 2009 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
...
I guess I see your point but WGR has been losing me for the past year or so. I just get so tired of generic blanket statements made by pretty much all of those guys that shows a zero understanding of the game.
I just turned it on the other day and they were ripping Hangartner. I come on here and get a pretty in depth report from a Panther blogger on what kind of player he really is.
God, they are awful.
by TrentEdwardsHoF2018 on Mar 4, 2009 8:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hey man your not the only one thinking that
I’ve been reading this blog for 3 months not, and participating it in for almost two and my football knowledge has grow in leaps and bounds.
I really appriciate the standup work that Brian and co. do here, sometimes makes me wounder if they shouldn’t be part of OBD, thats how much I’m impressed by them sometimes.
by CanadianBillsFan on Mar 4, 2009 9:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
got to love
the all night free agency drinking parties until four in the morning that comes with the site too!
"Gooood…..let the apathy take root…" - Ron from NM
by poz on Mar 4, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
This is typical, WGR is so focused on eathier what the bills are doing wrong or what the Sabres are doing period… Not one of those guys on that station (minus Howard Simon) has any clue what to look at when grading any player, i doubt most of them even played football.. let alone know how to evaluate a player. Its disgusting to think they are filling the radio airwaves with such crap!
by danntheman on Mar 4, 2009 10:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Howard simon...
…is a dumb as any one of them when discussing player personal. The only decent thing I have to say about him is that his personality doesnt grate on me.
by TrentEdwardsHoF2018 on Mar 4, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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