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Ranking the NFL Draft's interior O-Line prospects


California C Alex Mack (Pac10Rivalry.com)

As the 2009 NFL Draft approaches, we here at Buffalo Rumblings will continue interviewing bloggers and consulting outside sources in putting together detailed scouting reports on some of the Draft's most noteworthy prospects - concentrating, of course, on prospects that could pique the interest of the Buffalo Bills. This post continues a series in which I'll rank prospects at each position; ultimately, this project will roll itself into the "Buffalo Rumblings Big Board", which is exactly what it sounds like - the same type of big board NFL teams keep handy on draft day.

We've already ranked the tight ends and linebackers. Full rankings of those positions, as well as all positions, will be made available prior to the draft, which is a little over three short weeks away. What follows is a ranking of the draft's best interior offensive line prospects - an area that is still a huge concern for the Bills.

SECOND ROUND PROSPECTS
1. Max Unger, Oregon: Unger is exactly the type of interior lineman that you can plug into the lineup as a rookie and roll with - he's smart, athletic enough and versatile. Far more importantly, he's a good blocker, particularly at the second level. He's a great fit in Buffalo's blocking scheme, and could start at either left or right guard from day one in Buffalo.

2. Alex Mack, California: One of the better finishers and overall run blockers available inside this year, Mack is a little too stiff and lacks the athleticism to be considered the best, particularly when evaluating him as a guard. But the kid still ranks highly because of his leadership and intangibles. He'll start for a long time at the NFL level.

3. Andy Levitre, Oregon State: Though he played tackle in college, the 6'2", 305-pound Levitre will shift inside in the NFL based on size concerns. That positional versatility is valuable, however. Levitre isn't an overwhelming athlete, nor is he particularly dominant in any one area, but he's smart, plays with great technique (particularly footwork) and, again, fits the blocking scheme well. He's another plug-and-play starter right out of the gate.

THIRD ROUND PROSPECTS
4. Jonathan Luigs, Arkansas: One of the better athletes in this area, Luigs excels at getting to the second level. He's not the most physical player, but he's aggressive, tough and technically sound. I love the kid's experience, and he's helped pave the way for some elite rushers in his day. Again, this a center prospect who I think will be a far better guard, particularly in a scheme like Buffalo's.

5. Eric Wood, Louisville: Wood is considered a center by most, but I think he'll be a better guard at the NFL level because he doesn't have the anchor abilities of a solid center prospect. This is another boring interior lineman that won't overwhelm you when you look at him or watch him, but he's a tough, smart player that just gets the job done.

6. Duke Robinson, Oklahoma: In terms of pure talent, Robinson is at the top of the list. He's huge (6'5", 329), powerful, and has shown an ability to dominate in the run game. Most folks I have talked to mention his "immaturity", however, and liken him to a guy like Derrick Dockery - talented, but his motor runs hot and cold and he never really realizes his full potential. He can start in this league, but he's got some proving to do behind the scenes before it happens.

Four more names for y'all to peruse appear after the jump.

Star-divide

FOURTH ROUND PROSPECTS
7. Kraig Urbik, Wisconsin: This guy is a tough, physical run blocker that offers some positional versatility as a potential right tackle prospect. But he's limited athletically, particularly in getting downfield, and that's not going to do him any favors, particularly in Buffalo. He has starter ability, but he needs a little polish to get there.

8. Antoine Caldwell, Alabama: Yet another center that can play guard, and probably should play guard. Caldwell ranks below some of his peers, though, because he needs to improve his overall strength before he can be a starter. He'll be a pretty valuable reserve as a rookie, but he needs to spend some serious time in a strength program before he can be anything more.

9. Herman Johnson, LSU: Easily the most impressive physical specimen of the lot. The guy is just big - not fat, not tall, just big (6'8", 375). But he's pretty limited athletically; he's right tackle size, but reserve guard material athletically. He's a nightmare in the run game, but he needs a lot of technique work if he's going to be a starter in the pros.

10. Tyronne Green, Auburn: Another pretty talented player that's lacking in intangibles and a killer instinct. Green is an impressive athlete, but his shoddy technique limits his effectiveness. He's got the potential to not just start, but be a high-quality starter in the NFL. But he's green, and there are some questions about his drive.

***

This is just my opinion, folks. These are the top ten guards in the draft by my book, but probably half of them are starter-worthy as rookies. If the Bills are planning on starting a rookie at guard, they'll need to move relatively quickly. If you think I've made a grievous error in these rankings, let me know. If you think I've got some sort of hidden agenda, I'd love to hear about it. If you're itching to re-shuffle my rankings, let it rip. Consider this an open forum on 2009 NFL Draft guard/center prospects. Go.

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Probably how I’d rank them and rate them round-wise.

But where’s TJ Lang?!?! WA is going to call you out for sure! I think he’s a much better prospect that Johnson and Tyronne Green. In thinking about my next and last mock, I’m pretty confident that Urbik or Lang in round 4 would be a good addition, assuming either would be able to start for us immediately. I think Urbik would, but not sure about Lang yet.

If Caldwell were able to start at G for us this year, I think he’d be an excellent pick too. Starting G with the ability to slide to C if necessary, that makes a lot of sense. How much strength does he need to add?

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions  

But where’s TJ Lang?!?!

On my list of OTs. :)

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well that’s not cool. He projects at a RT or inside, so we should include him inside!

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn’t have the knee bend to play inside – won’t be able to anchor. I think he’s solely a RT at the NFL level.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

But where’s Cedric Dockery?!?!

On your list of undrafted free agents? HaHa…

Is Cedric anything like his big brother?

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t have Dockery ranked as draftable. He’s big, slow and stiff. Not nearly the athlete Derrick is.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmmm, just for that I WON'T bring him up

Other than to say that he could make a VERY good RG and would allow us to move Butler to the LG position and could fill in for either OT if they get injured. Just saying ya know. Eagles are onto something with that whole “draft as many OTs as you can” and play them all over the line.

If the Bills were a drug, I could only hope they were like speed so I could lose some weight as well.

by WABillsfan on Apr 2, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was going to mention Lang, he played tackle but can play anywhere on the line.

I think Trevor Canfield from Cincy could be included in this list, maybe even replacing Luigs, who I don’t think would be an immediate starter at the guard position.

by gatornation on Apr 2, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Canfield is the very next name on my list, at the top of the fifth round prospects.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wood

It seems, from the media at least, that Eric Wood is moving up after the combines and would fall into the 2nd round — possibly even being one or two on the list. Is this your ranking relating to your/Bills’ preference or your feel for how the draft/availability will go?

by labill on Apr 2, 2009 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

This is purely how I rank the players. Most of it is based on various conversations I’ve had with folks (some scouts), the limited amount of video I’ve seen (or saved a la Fort Worth), with a general understanding of traits the Bills like in players mixed in.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

i know this is how you ranked them, but...

i can’t see arguably the best guard in the draft falling to the 3rd round, especially in such a shallow group of guards in this draft class… if he’s there in the 2nd we take’em, and if unger and him both are there then the bills should take whichever one they have higher on their list as a guard, because thats where we need them to play.

In the bills case i’m willing to bet unger is higher on their board, and probably should be considering his versatility.

by Shovel51 on Apr 2, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

i can’t see arguably the best guard in the draft falling to the 3rd round

I agree with you, and I’m not trying to insinuate that he will in this post. All my round grade means is that I wouldn’t be overly enthused about the idea of drafting him unless we were in that round.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really? I’d be very pleased with drafting Duke in the Second Round! Luigs will last longer on the board than the Duke IMO

by pasaluki on Apr 2, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a difficult time evaluating players without seeing them play in at least one complete game, snap after snap, and breaking down their game film. Even that is cutting corners because the player could be playing injured or not at full strength, simply have one good matchup, or just have a bad day at the office. Game highlights are game highlights. I won’t be blinded by some online report. I don’t have enough time or resources to do a complete evaluation on all of the draft prospects. Nonetheless, excellent work, Brian!

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, and I’m not trying pass myself off as some “expert”, either. I hope everyone understands that.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

My list is close

First round
1. Mack – Big surprise I know. His intangiables push him past Unger in my book.

Second round
2. Wood – Some have him rated higher than Mack
3. Unger – Jack of all trades, but master of none. Sounds like a Bill to me.
4. Duke Robinson – Best pure G in this draft

Third round
5. Luigs – This kid is going to make teams regret passing on him. He just needs a year in an NFL strength program.
6. Levitre

Fourth round – same same

"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone? ...the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered? ...raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics." - Ben Stein

by Joe P. on Apr 2, 2009 12:45 PM EDT reply actions  

His intangiables push him past Unger in my book.

Hmm… funny… Unger’s intangibles pushed him past Mack in my book. :)

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's how i would have listed them...

just curious brian what “folks did you talk to” that said robinsons motor runs hot and cold?? mel kiper? mcshay? davis? lombardi? or just random fans who watched half a game of him? From what i’ve seen this kid looks better than dockery, he drives defenders out of the hole, and blocks til the whistle in MOST cases.

by Shovel51 on Apr 2, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha. If I had talked to Mel Kiper or Todd McShay, you guys would have known about it.

It doesn’t take much to be better than Dockery, does it? When I say “motor runs hot and cold”, I don’t mean that he doesn’t play with a nasty streak or finish plays, because he does. But he’s the typical ultra-talented lineman – there are plays where you’re left scratching your head because he just looks completely out of it.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only one source, but I like the sound of Mack better

http://www.draftcountdown.com/rankings/c.php

Unger
Strengths:
Extremely versatile…Excellent size with a big frame…Great strength and power…Pretty quick…Understands positioning and angles…Uses his hands well…Smart with terrific awareness…Good mobility and range…Superb balance…Is stout at the point of attack and can anchor…Gets a decent push in the run game…Competitive and plays to the whistle…Durable…Has a lot of experience against top competition.

Weaknesses:
Not a great athlete…Doesn’t always play with proper leverage…Is not very light on his feet…Struggles with speed off the edge…Allows defenders to get too close … A Jack-of-All-Trades but master of none?

Mack

Strengths:
Ideal size and bulk…Extremely smart…Decent athlete with good agility and quickness…Physical and aggressive…Nasty with a killer instinct and always finishes plays…Great technician who understands angles and leverage…Outstanding awareness…Very strong and powerful and is a monster in the weight room…Above average mobility…Hard worker…Tough and durable… Has a lot of experience.

Weaknesses:
Does not have great balance and spends too much time on the ground…A little stiff in the hips…Not real light on his feet…Shorter arms than you’d prefer…Can be too aggressive at times…Will get out of control … Susceptible to being overwhelmed by massive defenders.

"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone? ...the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered? ...raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics." - Ben Stein

by Joe P. on Apr 2, 2009 12:56 PM EDT reply actions  

i agree Joe

my only concern is that neither will be as good at guard as they are at center. With the center draft class much better this year than the guard class it makes you wish we had signed a guard or will mov Hangartner to guard rather than draft a guard.

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on Apr 2, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree with you here poz. I wish the BIlls could be drafting for C also instead of G.

by thefourwinds on Apr 2, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I loved the Hangartner signing, but I too wish they didn’t already commit to him playing center. Having that versatility going into the draft could be a huge advantage.

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

i wonder

if the commitment to play Hangartner at center is just blowing smoke before the draft? I agree that the versatility would be huge before the draft, allowing us some real flexibility with our draft picks along the o-line.

For the record, I too love the Hangartner signing. I think he will be great for us, hes young too.

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on Apr 2, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hangartner’s commitment to center is not smoke. Trust me.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hangartner is not the answer to our starting center position. If he could not win the starting job in Carolina, why is he good enough to start for us? He’s a good back up, but we already had good back ups at center and guard. We need pro bowl level linemen to get out of the divisions basement.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again, I ask: how can you possibly know the answer to that before he’s ever played a down in a Bills uniform?

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has played for four years in Carolina. He could not win the starting job there. Arn’t you tired of having back ups start for us on the O-Line. We need to get out of this mind set and start putting pro bowl calibre linemen on the field. Great teams have great linemen, that should be our montra.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn't start because Ryan Kalil is really good.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/18996/Ryan_Kalil

Hangartner started 8 games at center or guard last year. Did you watch any of them? The guys at Cat Scratch Fever did and they were ticked that he didn’t re-sign with the Panthers. They really liked him. I don’t know why you are all over this guy.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Apr 2, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes I watched Carolina three times last year. Unfortunately I didn’t notice Hangartner. Stop hoping back ups become top starters. It doesn’t happen that often. We need to build an offensive line with pro bowl calibre players and not four year back ups. Someday someone on the Bills will raise the bar and fans again will not settle for backups.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Someday someone on the Bills will raise the bar and fans again will not settle for backups.

I don’t think any of us are going ga-ga over Hangartner being here, gjv. It’s just that we’re choosing the “wait and see” approach before condemning the guy, whereas you’re letting skepticism make your judgment for you before he’s even played a snap in Buffalo.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not condeming him. I believe he will be an asset to our team as a back up. But, don’t fault me for wanting to raise the level of play of our O-Line. I just think our FO is not up to the task of putting together a O-Line that is capable of bring a play off team to Buffalo. Instead they remain on this perpetual treadmill of bring in back ups and saying they have improved the O-Line. When in fact we have just replaced a back up that we knew was nothing more than a back up with another back up. That’s why my earlier post suggested a trade down. I want the bar raised with the O-Line. I want lineman brought in that are pro bowl calibre.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Were Pat Williams, Tony Romo, Larry Johnson, Eric Moulds, Michael Turner, and Matt Sanchez all backup-caliber players? They were backups to Ted Washington, Drew Bledsoe, Priest Holmes, Quinn Early, LaDainian Tomlinson, and John David Booty, respectively, for extended periods of time.

Just because the starting player is better doesn’t mean that his backup is not any good. In some other cases, unfortunately, starting players get to start because of their draft position, salary, or history/reputation.

Have you seen Hangartner play and evaluated his games? What do you think he can or cannot do?

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which one sat on the bench for four years?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Turner (2004-2007) and Romo (2003-2006).

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Glad you found two out of the 1600 +or – players in the league. Look it, the bottom line is he has never been able to crack the starting line up. If the Bills are ever going to have a play off team they need to improve the level of play of their O-Line. They need to bring in players that raise the bar, not maintain it at the current level. Hangartner’s signing is ok for some drunk fan who want to see a jersey filled by an average player, then after the game go online to want Jauron fired. I want the bar raised for our o-line and unfortunately Hangartner doesn’t quite do it.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

By the way,

James Harrison was a backup for 5 years (2002-2006). David Garrard was also a backup for 5 years (2002-2006).

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some would argue that Garrard is still a back up.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you’re not going to give credit to Hangartner for not winning a starting job (because he didn’t), then you have to give credit to Garrard for winning a starting job (because he did).

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well my argument, not that you seem willing to change your opinion, is that it is a vast improvement over Preston and Fowler. Even if he is a career back up it’s an improvement. You can’t go from craptastic to pro bowl in one year. Not possible. They have improved the center position with Hangartner and kept the good players on the right side. They still have Peters and will fill the LG (or RG) spot with a player at the level of Dockery in the draft.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Apr 2, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure that you don’t mean to say that Hangartner, or any player, cannot be evaluated based on his previous game film? Right now, before he’s even played a snap for the Bills, breaking down his games in Carolina is closest we are going to get to determining what he will or will not be able to do for the Bills.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can look at all the game film you want. I’m certain you can find four years of game film on him. Bottom line, He’s a back up. Who game is he going to elevate? What player on our roster is going to push him to elevate his game? The simple answer is no one. Therefore the bar remains the same. Set at back up O-Line play. Is that what you want?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

How is it possible to tell what a player can or cannot do without watching him play?

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

People have been watching his film and evaluating him for four years. He’s still a back up.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

People watched film and evaluated Steve Young for four years (1987-1990) as a backup. He’s in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure if you go to the days of Red Grange and increase your sampling to 200000 players you can find a few more. However for every one four year bench warmer you find that made good I’ll find 1000 that remained a good bench warmer. Whose odds do you want to build your team around. I’ll guarantee that the PR people in Green Bay are putting the same positive spin on for Duke Preston. They probably have someone finding diamonds in the rough to argue there point. But the odds and reality are against them.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL.

Just because it’s not probable does not mean that it’s not possible. It’s happened several times before.

I’m not willing to say that I know what a player can or cannot do without evaluating his play in games. I’m going to defer to Hangartner’s game tape.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow they had a lot to say about it. (crickets)

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can’t lump 4 year backups who never did more than play special teams with a player like Hangartner who has 28 quality starts. The difference between Hangartner and all the other 4 year backups that you are talking about is that he has proven that he is better than a lot of the league’s starting centers.

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bottom line, He’s a back up.

Actually, he’s a starting center now. :)

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who did he beat out for that position? Would you not what a high level of competion to earn the position? You are to easy to please.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats what she said.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Way to lighten the mood, Sireric!

This discussion is getting way too serious.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get what you are saying but I think that Fort, Brian and I (and perhaps others) would say that you don’t need five all pros on your line to have a great o-line. The New York Giants have one of the best lines in football, and they aren’t all pro bowlers.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

or if you have a quarterback like Ben Roethlisberger, you can win a Super Bowl with an average offensive line (and that’s being generous).

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

That defense doesn’t hurt their cause either.

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Generous may be TOO generous to describe those guys

Most QBs would have been in a hospital for a few weeks with that group blocking for them…

If the Bills were a drug, I could only hope they were like speed so I could lose some weight as well.

by WABillsfan on Apr 2, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree that you don’t need five all pros. But when you get rid of a starter and bring in a back up, then try to put a positive spin on it, you’re taking your fans for fools.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that is only the assumption that a starter is always better than a backup. There are a ton of NFL players who are backups that are better than starters. They just aren’t better than the starters on their own teams. I’m sure that KC fans aren’t thinking, “oh great, all we did was go out and trade for a back up.”

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

….get rid of a starter and bring in a back up….

Who was the starter? Fowler, who hasn’t even gotten a whiff of an offer, or Preston who couldn’t beat him out for 3 years and wasn’t wanted back by the Bills. Seriously, quit complaining about signing Hangartner when he’s already proven he’s MUCH better than the garbage we’ve been stuck with for years.

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Derrick Dockery.

I think he was referring to the offensive line as a unit, not the center position in particular.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well he mentioned bringing in a backup, after talking non-stop about how Hangartner is a backup, and we also have only brought in 1 OL this offseason. He HAS to be talking about Hang!!!

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you mean by

“talking non-stop”?

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe I mean typing non-stop, or opining non-stop.

I just read something like 100+ replies about the idea that Hangartner is a backup, and each time gjv commented, that’s what it was about…..

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with you guys :)

I even argued for Duke Preston for a while, then I was born again and saw the light. Hangartner will be just fine. The key to a good offensive line is to have cohesion. Talent without cohesion leads to bad line play (cough Dockery). Having a center who can make proper line calls also helps.

by syrbillsfan on Apr 3, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not pleased, and I’m certainly not in your camp, either. I’m merely indifferent until we see the guy play. The fact of the matter is that he IS our starting center. That means he is NOT a backup, and he is a part of the team’s plans for 2009. That’s really where the conversation ends.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now your getting my point. Our FO is bestowing the starting center position on a back up. My whole point from my first post was for the Bills to trade down and select their highest rated center and guard in the draft. Thus creating a higher level of competion for the starting o-line jobs. Thats how you raise the bar on the o-line play.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

*WARNING*

You don’t really want to have a discussion about draft philosophy, do you?

LOL.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is how the discussion started.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Proceed with caution

if we actually start discussing draft philosophy.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where shall we start?

What is the objective of the NFL’s Annual Selection Meeting?

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

why don’t you start with your draft philosophy.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

to be more specific, what would be your goals for the Bills in this years draft?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Part of my philosophy...

It doesn’t matter what year. It’s the same every year.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Best player available regardless of position?
Have I heard this before?

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

or

trade and obtain value equal to or greater than your original pick.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's all about value and talent.

Take care of the future and the future will take care of the present.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

very good. But what would be your objectives, say rounds 1,2 and 3?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

given the circumstances of the Bills, and I know we don’t know who will be available at 11, what would be your dream senerio?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I had enough information, which I don’t, I would grade and rank every player eligible for the draft, as well as all pro personnel. Whatever combination of those players and/or future draft picks provides the most value and talent to the roster with the picks that I have. That would be my dream scenario.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh God, NO

Please, no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that is only the assumption that a starter is always better than a backup. There are a ton of NFL players who are backups that are better than starters. They just aren’t better than the starters on their own teams. I’m sure that KC fans aren’t thinking, “oh great, all we did was go out and trade for a back up.”

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate to use anything even remotely similiar to madden as an example. But who is better, a guy who is a 9 out of ten backing up a 10 out of 10, or Duke Preston, who is a 4 out of 10 and starting because Melvin Fowler is a 3 out of 10.

Just because he hasn’t been able to win a starting job doesn’t mean that he isn’t better than most of the starters in the league. It just means he wasn’t better than the other players at his position on his own team. Let’s also not forget that those starters just had one of the best rushing attacks in the league last year and gave up one of the lowest sacks totals in the league too. It would be different if Hangartner was a backup on some crappy OL.

Hangartner has 28 career starts, so there is plenty of film available for Buffalo to figure out how good he is. This isn’t a Craig Nall, cross your fingers and take a shot in the dark signing. Hangartner has experience and has apparently been very successful in the large amount of playing time he has had.

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

How many starts did Duke Preston have? He’s a back up too.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

And everybody calls him one...

everybody thinks Hangartner can start on 20 NFL teams and be a top 20 or top 15 center. Nobody thinks that about Preston.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Apr 2, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re helping me make my point with that one. Duke Preston had 20 career starts and it was plenty of time for Buffalo to find out exactly how good (or not good) he was. Hangartner has proven that he is more than good enough to be a starter.

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

he didn’t win the starting job. as a matter of fact he hasn’t won it in Buffalo either. He has been bestowed the position.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or you could say that he played well enough in Carolina last season to earn the starting job here.

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are the Bills really that sorry of a team in your mind?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ryan Kalil is a good player. To say that Hangarter was a back up to him isn’t a slight.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes it is. It means he’s not as good. Do you want a second best to the best on your team?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

The second best to Kalil is better then Preston. So to answer your question: Yes.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, just give it up already. You’re starting to look foolish.

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

LMAO!!!

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

So… what you’re saying is that you’ve made up your mind.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. I just want better for the Bills.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are the Bills really that sorry of a team in your mind?

I don’t even understand what that means.

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

How do you build a winning atmosphere in your organization without good honest competion? I could see a proven player coming in and being penciled the starter. But to bestow the starting posion on a back up from watching tapes is a very sorry state of affairs.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Last two backup players I remember being given a job without

competition……Rob Johnson and JP Loseman. I am not saying Hangartner is going to be that bad, but I think unproven players should earn their spot. IMO, Hangartner is not a proven starter.

"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone? ...the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered? ...raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics." - Ben Stein

by Joe P. on Apr 2, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joe, those idiots only had a handful of starts, if any at the time they were handed the job. Johnson had I think 1 start, and JP none.

Hangartner has 28 starts and played well. Maybe he’s not as proven as other players that were available, but to say he’s unproven is a bit off.

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Johnson was replacing Todd Collins, so maybe that was warranted. It took Collins 10 years to get good.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Small difference....

I said he was not a proven starter. Being a starter does not make you a good player. Fowler and Preston proved that. How many starts did Fowler have when we signed him? How did that work out? The fact is Hangartner lost his starting job. So, IMO, he has to prove he deserves to be the starter. I am not saying he can’t do it, but I would not hesitate drafting Mack and moving Hangartner to guard if Mack proves the better center.

"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone? ...the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered? ...raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics." - Ben Stein

by Joe P. on Apr 2, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can look at all the game film you want. I’m certain you can find four years of game film on him. Bottom line, He’s a back up.

You’re right about that. Watching 3 Panthers games without watching Hangartner specifically is a good way to determine whether he is starting caliber or not.

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately I didn’t notice Hangartner

In a lot of cases that is a good thing to say about an O-Lineman.

by syrbillsfan on Apr 3, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

fair enough!

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on Apr 2, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Five more names for y’all to peruse appear after the jump.

??? I only count four. Am I missing something?

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Herm Johnson counts twice

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah, forgot about that.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

That or I just am dumb.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was scared to say anything, because I thought I was missing something obvious, and I would look like a dolt.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

unger at guard?

Here is the information you posted about Unger only 2 days ago, and now he starts at either guard from Day 1?

    Rumblings: The Bills have their starting center in place, having signed Geoff Hangartner in free agency. They’re looking at Unger as a guard, at least initially. Can he play guard at the NFL level, or do you believe he’d be a better center?

    Dan Kadar: Unger would be a much better center or tackle in the NFL. At this point, he’s just not powerful enough to play guard.

It seems a bit inconsistent!

by dukedoc76 on Apr 2, 2009 1:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Obviously, I disagree with Dan, don’t I? :)

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously, but..

who likely has the better insight as to the player’s strength? I ask, not knowing the answer, and not looking to challenge your information. Perhaps you have other information you did not post. Various other sights have Unger rated highly, but again, not speifically at guard. Obviously, whatever anybody else thinks must be tempered by the unique demands of each blocking scheme, other players, etc. As a prospective guard, I am more impressed by Antoine Caldwell than with Unger. Both can play center, but I think Unger would be better at OT, and Caldwell at guard.

by dukedoc76 on Apr 2, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Strictly speaking athletically, I like Caldwell better than Unger, too. But Unger is a better blocker, is more technically sound, and is FAR more NFL-ready at this point.

I have concerns with Unger as a guard prospect, and strength is one of them. I think he makes up for his lower body strength issue (which can be rectified) with top-flight smarts and football IQ, and solid technique. If Sean Kugler can teach him to keep defenders off of his pads in short order, he’ll be just fine as a guard next year.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he can play Center, can’t he play Guard? Or is that oversimplifying things?

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s oversimplifying a little, particularly in Buffalo’s division. Centers need to be able to anchor. Guards need to be a bit more agile and aware to handle inside blitzers and get to the second level in the run game. (Speaking about blocking against the 3-4, obviously.)

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unger/Mack

This should be very easy for the scouts to determine who is better and fits better, since they played the same position against the very same players in the pac-10 for 4 years. That is an unbelievable amount of same match-up tape.

by labill on Apr 2, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Mack

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on Apr 2, 2009 2:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Thats it? Just; Mack?

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

nothing left to be said from me on the issue I think

Mack is just such a beast!

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on Apr 2, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

True, you really can’t add anything that you haven’t already said.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

exactly!

the simple “Mack” comment was my way of chiming in without repeating everything I’ve previously stated.

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on Apr 2, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

mack

was on ESPNEWS today over the lunch hour when I escaped work for a nice 1.5 hr lunch at a local sports bar….. He seems like a complete meat head, but a very personable, nice guy who loves contact. Unfortunately the cagey Dick Jauron likes Unger more

MARVelous - "I went from America's team to North America's Team" Terrell Owens

by MARVelous on Apr 2, 2009 3:56 PM EDT reply actions  

The Bills should trade down

and take the top center and guard on their board. An Unger or Mack along with a Robinson could come in and start for the Bills next season. The worst case senerio would be that they would elevate the bar of performance of the current vets on the roster.I realize this would mean passing on a Maybin or Brown, but I believe building the O-Line to a pro bowl level is the way to start getting this team out of the basement of our division.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 4:11 PM EDT reply actions   3 recs

Rec’d. Agree with pretty much all of this, though we might have to take an OT high, putting a little wrinkle in that plan.

Buffalo Rumblings - all you care to know about the Buffalo Bills and more

by Brian Galliford on Apr 2, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I,m hopeing the Bills come to their senses and make Peters one of the top two paid LT’s. Thus avoiding the need to draft an OT in the first round.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I,m hopeing the Bills come to their senses and make Peters one of the top two paid LT’s

Is he one of the top two LTs in the game? I think he’s top ten. Maybe top five. He doesn’t deserve more than Jordan Gross though.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Apr 2, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

So What? Let’s get him signed and into camp. What sense does it make to say he’s better than him or better than him. He a pro bowl LT and that’s all we need to know. Make him a top two paid LT and get on with building a pro bowl calibre line. Arn’t you tired of having an offensive line made up with back ups?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

So What? Let’s get him signed and into camp.

So when he has another year like last year, everyone will be complaining that he is an overpaid lump. And they will be right.

The time has come for someone to put his foot down. And that foot is me.

by sireric on Apr 2, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aren't you tired of overpaid, underproductive players?

Dockery, Royal, Fowler…..

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Apr 2, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would have kept Dockery. Royal and Flowers were a waste of time. But I would make Peters one of the two highest paid LT’s, and get him into camp early.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well it's obvious you want to spend money.

Dockery and Peters are not worth that kind of money.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Apr 2, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

$200,000,000.99

for the left side of the OL. Now that’s raising the bar! HaHaHa…

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure you can find someone on the Lackawanna Steelers to play for less. If you want to be in the big leagues then you better be preparred to pay for top talent.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do Whatever It Takes. With Whatever It Takes.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now your catching on.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

More like

playing along…hahahahaha.

Great plays don't make great players; great players make great plays.

by Fort Worth on Apr 2, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

You either have the fire in the belly to succeed or get out of the way of those that do.

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, that isn’t true at all. Then why didn’t every hall of famer start as a rookie?

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

what are you talking about?

by gjv on Apr 2, 2009 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I mixed up the convos there. My bad.

by kaisertown on Apr 2, 2009 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dockery, Royal, Fowler…..

Keep going….

~K
"I’m Kurupt with Buffalo Rumblings. I am worth hundreds!"

by Kurupt on Apr 2, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was merely talking about the O Line.

Surely we could continue the conversation and discuss other positions. :-)

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Apr 3, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Solid move, nothing more need be said

We could get a pass rushing specialist like Sidbury in the 3rd for that, but shoring up our Oline with a combo of say Unger/Mack/Wood/Robinson would be a real steal for us.

If the Bills were a drug, I could only hope they were like speed so I could lose some weight as well.

by WABillsfan on Apr 2, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

wow

stepping away from this convo for three hours and then reading all that was a chore!

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on Apr 2, 2009 10:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Tell me about it

Why can’t everyone sum up their point with one word…..Mack :-)

"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone? ...the Great Depression, passed the... Anyone? Anyone? The tariff bill? The Hawley-Smoot Tariff Act? Which, anyone? Raised or lowered? ...raised tariffs, in an effort to collect more revenue for the federal government. Did it work? Anyone? Anyone know the effects? It did not work, and the United States sank deeper into the Great Depression. Today we have a similar debate over this. Anyone know what this is? Class? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? The Laffer Curve. Anyone know what this says? It says that at this point on the revenue curve, you will get exactly the same amount of revenue as at this point. This is very controversial. Does anyone know what Vice President Bush called this in 1980? Anyone? Something-d-o-o economics. "Voodoo" economics." - Ben Stein

by Joe P. on Apr 2, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

haha! exactly!

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on Apr 3, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I also like Kraig Urbik as a Mauler!

by Fam_1st on Apr 3, 2009 12:44 PM EDT reply actions  

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