pisa tinoisamoa - breakdown vs. other LBs

by the_prophet on May 12, 2009 2:02 AM EDT Comment 52 comments

i posted this in the comments thread for OJ's fanpost, but i think it's worth using as my first fanpost ever. i cleaned up some grammar. i also changed the title since it was pretty long.

turnovers/big play "capacity"

i think it’s interesting that tinoisamoa seems to have some good numbers in the big-play department. he’s played 84 games, and he’s got 16 turnovers forced, ten sacks, and 25 passes defended. that’s a turnover or big play on the QB once every four games, not bad for a LB of any caliber. ray lewis, long considered the definition of an excellent and well-rounded LB, has a combined 74 big plays in 178 games, or around one every 3 games. lewis averages a PD every other game, tinoisamoa’s average is around one every 3.4 games.

8 of pisa’s turnovers – fully half – came in his first year of seven, however, which is worth noting.

in comparison (i threw in some names of guys that came in this offseason):

pisa: 84 games, 7 INT, 9 FF, 25 PD, 10 sacks
ellison: 42 games, 2 INT, 0 FF, 9 PD, 2 sacks
poz: 19 games, 1 INT, 1 FF, 6 PD, 0 sacks (our LBs blitz a LOT, too, as we learned in the breakdown posted earlier this offseason)
mitchell: 91 games, 6 INT, 5 FF, 23 PD, 12 sacks
crowell: 65 games, 5 INT, 4 FF, 17 PD, 7 sacks
keiaho: 39 games, 1 INT, 2 FF, 1 PD, .5 sacks
june: 88 games, 12 INT, 3 FF, 24 PD, 1 sack (obviously a coverage lb)
peterson: 135 games, 15 INT, 6 FF, 40 PD, 19.5 sacks
pisa’s stats extrapolated to 135 games (like peterson): 135 games, 12 INT, 15 FF, 41 PD, 16 sacks (quite comparable, all told).

just some food for thought. past performance isn’t a guarantee of anything, as we all know (see: aaron schobel, derrick dockery, jason peters), but it IS something to think about. as we’ve seen with players like whitner, not everyone has big-play ability in them. a player can be a strong contributor for a long time without making a huge impact, but i really think that i’d prefer a player that doesn’t have the measurables of someone else but can make the plays (see: jairus byrd, hopefully).

also note that ellison’s numbers in this department (not tackling, obviously) are very close to poz’s future numbers if you extrapolate his out.

This FanPost was written by a registered user of Buffalo Rumblings. Its views do not necessarily reflect the views of Rumblings' editorial staff, but are just as valued as our own.

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I HOPE!!!

I think everyone in the Bills nation should be praying for this guy to come to buffalo..its not too often that a player like that gets released, especailly when he was that productive with no defensive talent around. OBD better have a contract ready with a brand new pen. THIS GUY MUST GET SIGNED!!!!!!!

by carlvanetten on May 12, 2009 7:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

When comparing

you cannot mix and match Strong side with Weak side & Middle. They all have different roles and assignments.

Peterson was a WLB when he got those stats, it was Hill that manned the Strong side. Same for Cato June.

I think the Weak Side Linebacker typically gets more opportunities for big plays and the Middle Linebacker gets more opportunity to be a tackling machine. The SLB’s stats are typically much less flashy than both other positions. That’s why I liked Crowell so much, his stats for a SLB were above normal, we let a good one slip away if you ask me.

Your ability to control the LOS is directly linked to your ability to win football games!
FEED the BEAST!

by keysh67 on May 12, 2009 7:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i realize that. i was just posting these numbers for general comparison.

there are playmakers at all three LB positions in the NFL. what makes them a playmaker is their ability to go out and actually make those plays, not their position. performing above average at your position and forcing a turnover every eight games still isn’t that great in general when you’re talking about playmakers.

by the_prophet on May 12, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh yah.

Wasnt there a former undersized Rams LB that came to buffalo? I think he did pretty ok. oh yah, LONDON FLETCHER-BAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yah pisa, come to buffalo!!!

by carlvanetten on May 12, 2009 8:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You can’t really compare the two – they played different positions, and Fletcher was quite clearly a better player.

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by Brian Galliford on May 12, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True

but this guy does have the potential from what I see to have a very successful career. I just hope he wont get snubbed from the probowl if he does turn out like fletcher.

by carlvanetten on May 12, 2009 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What does that matter?

Just because he is from the same team, and somewhat undersized (Fletcher being short, but still 245 lbs). They play different positions, and for the same team but at very different times.

The Bills CAN win every game

by killascript on May 12, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i would like to know his tackles for either no gain or loss?/

by Shovel51 on May 12, 2009 8:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i wasn’t able to find that information out, no. interesting question, definitely. someone posted a scouting report in OJ’s fanshot that said that he was very aggressive and had sideline-to-sideline speed, but could be caught out of position on some plays. i’m assuming that means he’s in the backfield a lot, since if you’re fast you’ve got a bit of a safety net when you’re in the normal roaming area for a LB.

by the_prophet on May 12, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

alls i have been able to find is college TFL which is 39 (but that really means nothing at this point

PROFESSIONAL CAREER: Has totaled 526 tackles including 7.0 sacks, seven interceptions, 22 passes defensed, four forced fumbles and three fumble recoveries 42 tackles over three-game span during 2007 season were the most by a [Ram] over three games since London Fletcher collected 46 over the same span in 2001, 121 tackles as a rookie in 2003 made him first St. Louis Rams rookie to lead the team in tackles.

link to a nice breakdown of his career season by season and some game by game details:
http://stlrams.com/blogs/st-louis-rams-nfl/pages/Pisa-Tinoisamoa-50-Linebacker.aspx

by Shovel51 on May 14, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

GUY ON BILLS.BOARDS POSTED THAT HE'S HAD 28 TFL...

compared to cato june w/ 18, and crowell w/ 11.5.. i’m not sure over what period of time those stats are for.. but that’s what he has listed.

by Shovel51 on May 14, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

nice post prophet

I’m glad you put those numbers up there because I’m getting the feeling that some here dont want Pisa because of his size. Now maybe its because I have seen him play a bit so I’m biased but if you have to choose him or Ellison believe me its NOT A CHOICE. Ellison is simply not in Pisa Tinoisiamoa’s league, not even close, and probably never will be. Pisa was made his teams defensive captain for a reason (Chris Kelsay is really not helping that argument) and hes always around the ball, I think that shows that he understands the flow of the game and gets where he needs to be. He can cover, which we need. He complements our other LBs well. He is clearly an upgrade, whatever other argument can be made about him being overrated I can accept but there is no debate about who is better between him or Ellison.

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on May 12, 2009 11:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

that’s what i was trying to show here. he’s not a DeMarcus Ware or James Harrison, but he’s solid and will be an upgrade over the stopgap we’ve got playing in that position currently.

by the_prophet on May 12, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And of course it’s a part-time position he would be used for on the Bills (as Brian pointed out last week). Our third LB is technically a starter, but in reality functions more like a back-up player. I suppose there are some people who would say our “SAM” (he’s really a WIL) might see more time on the field if we upgraded from Ellison, but I doubt it. It seems to me that Perry Fewell is going to want to get his three top Safeties on the field simultaneously as much as possible, as well as his nickel CB. Having lots of DB’s is the heart of his defensive philosophy. So if Pisa joins us, he’s going to get a lot of opportunity to catch his breath on the sidelines.

by Macktruck on May 12, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Couldn’t a LB addition like Tinoisamoa result in a guy like Poz or Mitchell having fewer 3 down duties?

Our current 3rd LB acts as a “part-time” player simply because we don’t have anyone else good enough to push Mitchell and Poz for playing time in certain passing situations. I’m not saying Tinoisamoa would do that, but it’s certainly possible.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on May 12, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Poz or Mitchell would come off the field before Pisa. It would probably lead to a reduction in the nickel packages we play from time to time.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on May 12, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yup

I think Pisa would add to our versatility. Depending on the subs being made by offenses in passing situations we could play an combo of Pisa, Scott or Byrd we want in addition to Whitner McGee and McKelvin and not sacrifice much in the way of coverage

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on May 12, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i’d think it would be mitchell. he’s made some plays in coverage, but pisa’s definitely better in coverage than kawika is.

by the_prophet on May 12, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But Mitchell, inconsistent though he is, is more consistent than Pisa. He also has the heft to fight through blocks, while Pisa is smaller than Ellison in terms of playing weight. So I don’t think it’s automatic that they yank Kawicka more often than Pisa. Whatever happens I would not expect a reduction in nickel packages with Perry Fewell running the D. If he could somehow get away with putting eleven DB’s on the field play after play he would do it in a heartbeat.

by Macktruck on May 13, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But Mitchell in pass coverage is more inconsistent than Pisa. That was the point. How many pass blockers is he fighting off covering his zone? Zero. So why does his size matter there?

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on May 13, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sign the man!

by Lynchisin23 on May 12, 2009 12:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Playmakers

It seems like this offseason has been about bringing in playmakers to help this team. That is exactly what this guy is. Even thought he is not big, he is fast, instinctive, and paliin and simply makes plays from sideline to sideline. I have said for years that we need more players on the team that can make a big play. This guy does that!

by The Irishman on May 12, 2009 8:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Good article

And good talent that Buffalo hopefully doesn’t let slip away.

by pasaluki on May 13, 2009 1:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice work

rec’d for using stats to make an argument…

by tiimbitz4786 on May 13, 2009 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

hey, my first! hoo-ray!

by the_prophet on May 13, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Any News on his visit????

by hilliarddavid on May 13, 2009 9:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I hope we do not give him a chance to leave. Supposedly, NE is interested.

by The Irishman on May 13, 2009 9:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Just a thought

With team OTA’s scheduled for this weekend, perhaps they bring him in today, sign him and he hangs around for OTAs

by freddyjj on May 14, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

has anyone heard any news from the meeting that happened yesterday????

by Shovel51 on May 14, 2009 11:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I have heard nothing

by hilliarddavid on May 14, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

all i know is

that i hope we sign this guy!

I can do everything through him who gives me strength. Philippians 4:13

by NCbillsfan12 on May 14, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

word on the street is that he never showed up yesterday

http://blogs.buffalonews.com/billboard/2009/05/no-pisa-sightings.html

I can do everything through him who gives me strength. Philippians 4:13

by NCbillsfan12 on May 14, 2009 1:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Well that would stink!

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on May 14, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just got my text...

Pisa met with coaches today not wednesday.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on May 14, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

A day late, ok no biggy. Now lets just make sure thathe doesn’t get a chance to visit NE.

by CanadianBillsFan on May 14, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah i got that too.. wonder how it went.. apparently he hasn't signed.. i can't see anyone other than say the colts and bucs really seeing him as a great fit..

but who knows.. anyone w/ at OLB could use a guy like this

by Shovel51 on May 14, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the Giants could use him

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on May 14, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They already signed Michael Boley, to go with guys like Antonio Pierce, Gerris Wilkinson, Danny Clark, Chase Blackburn 2008 draftees Bryan Kehl and Johnathan Goff and 2009 2nd rounder Clint Sintim.

I think they are quite set….

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on May 14, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh yeah...

they also have Terrence Pennington and Dwayne Wright!!!

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on May 14, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i wouldnt feel comfortable

with Clark or Sintim. That team is still challenging for Super Bowls, they are looking to get over the hump now.

I’d rather have Boley and Pisa around Pierce

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on May 14, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't know Dwayne Wright had signed anywhere.

He has a shot to make the team there with Ward leaving right?

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on May 14, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doubtful

They drafted Andre Brown and have Danny Ware, who’s much better than Wright anyhow.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on May 14, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh.

stinks to be him. RBs are a dime a dozen I guess.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on May 14, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yea

Wright is going nowhere on that roster

Guards Brad Butler and Brandon Rodd are decent. - Pete Prisco
Brandon Rodd!! Our best player.

by poz on May 14, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

what happened with the former rams’ linebacker who is visiting the bills? any updates? thanks.

by chaucer on May 14, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He visited...

that’s all I got.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on May 14, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I do niot know how how much faith I put in this but...

http://www.profootballcentral.com/

This site says the Bills are trying to work out a contract. Does anyone know anything more on this?

by The Irishman on May 14, 2009 9:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

you might want to try a more direct link than the front page for the site. for posterity, the link is this: http://www.profootballcentral.com/2009/05/14/tinoisamoa-and-buffalo-talking-contract/

considering it’s a rumor site, i don’t know how specific that is. where’s geronimo when you need him?

by the_prophet on May 14, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

By the way thanks

by The Irishman on May 14, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

gosh, i hope this is true.

by chaucer on May 15, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well since it’s been over a day and he hasn’t signed yet, and there have been no indication of ongoing talks, then I’m guessing that it’s not. Lets face it folks, Pisa’s gone.

by CanadianBillsFan on May 16, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs