NFL Scout on Bills' O-Line: "HORRIBLE"
by Brian Galliford on Jul 23, 2009 12:15 AM EDT
in Buffalo Bills News
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PrintWho's ready for a weekend of Terrell Owens?
The Buffalo Bills open training camp in just two short days, as the full squad will take the field for their first official practice of the 2009 season on Saturday morning. I think it's pretty safe to say that if you get your NFL fix at almost any other NFL location (aside from a Bills-centric location, such as this one), you'll hear solely about Owens this coming weekend. That's fine; indeed, it is welcome to a city that hasn't had a football-related national story of note in quite some time. Owens is creating some buzz around this football team.
While everyone else is eagerly awaiting Owens' training camp debut, however, I'll defer to Tim Graham's sentiment: Owens is not the big story heading into camp from a team standpoint. The offensive line is. It's tough to field a competent offense when your line can't play consistently, and that ability is the clear-cut glaring question mark of the day for Buffalo.
With so much riding on a re-shuffled unit that will feature new starters at all five positions, it's a bit disconcerting to hear veteran NFL scouts - in this case, former Browns and Ravens scout Daniel Jeremiah - describe the Bills' depth up front as "HORRIBLE." (Capital emphasis not mine.)
Where the concern lies
You have to imagine that certain fellows named Belichick, Sparano and Ryan are keenly aware of the apparent horrible-ness of the Bills' new-look line as well. A quick gel up front is absolutely necessary for the Bills. Even if the line is dominant in the pre-season, that proves nothing - and as such, Mr. Belichick is going to attempt to pick the unit apart like some sort of demonic surgeon when the Bills travel to New England in Week 1. The sooner a starting five is defined - and the more time they play next to each other during Buffalo's five pre-season contests - the better.
Most clairvoyant critics have issues with the projected starting tackle combination of Langston Walker (left) and Brad Butler (right). I've heard "Walker lacks the lateral mobility to deal with 3-4 edge rushers" so many times over the last three months that if his name is mentioned to me, I spit that sentence out in under a second like some freakish human search engine. (You know, from those commercials.) Likewise, concerns exist over Butler's transition back to tackle, a position he has not played in over three years.
Ironically, that's where the concern ends
Most folks worried about the offensive line are not, however, routinely referencing the middle of Buffalo's line, which features not only three new starters, but three brand-new Bills players. The interior of the line - in particular the center position - was the clear weak area up front last season, as the Bills rarely found any sort of consistency running up the middle. Geoff Hangartner, a stellar reserve in Carolina (a team that just happens to be one of the league's best running the football), is the new center. Rookies Eric Wood (Round 1, No. 28 overall) and Andy Levitre (Round 2, No. 52 overall) will be making position switches and are expected to nail down the starting jobs at right and left guard, respectively.
Maybe it's because no one has seen these guys play yet; heck, maybe it's because there's nothing to gripe about because these guys are good. For whatever reason, outside of Buffalo, beyond the "rookie guards" argument, nothing terrible is mentioned frequently about these three players. Don't ask me why; I don't fully understand it. It's completely fair for outsiders to worry about the tackles, but in the nose tackle rich AFC East, why miss out on an opportunity for some equal-opportunity skepticism across the board? (This is especially true for Hangartner.)
There isn't even much said about the depth players (although, admittedly, cracking on depth players is rarely interesting to outsiders). Seth McKinney is an experienced reserve. Kirk Chambers has acquitted himself well in the past. Demetrius Bell is a high-upside project worth keeping an eye on. There's nothing inherently "bad" in those near-universal sentiments, outside of the implied "you probably don't want to rely on these guys full-time."
Regardless, concern is warranted
I'm pretty optimistic about this line. Then again, I'm optimistic nearly to a fault this time of year, and completely understand why the word "HORRIBLE" might creep into some scouts' minds when they glance at the depth chart.
This topic has been beaten to death throughout the off-season. In two days, Buffalo's new line will finally take the field to start proving their critics right or wrong. Skepticism is warranted. If you ask me, a little optimism is justifiable, as well. Either way, if you want to boil Buffalo's potential 2009 offensive success into two key factors, "Trent Edwards" will only narrowly beat out this offensive line - and Owens, in reality, doesn't make the cut.
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I’m rarely optimistic, as I’m sure some have noticed, but I am excited about this OL, outside of Walker. To call the OL “HORRIBLE” and not even backing it up with anything is extremely shortsighted. The three veterans that are expected to start are all competent players who we should get good play out of. They are all better players than two of our starters from last year, Dockery and the crap that played Center. If we get solid play out of the rookies, we should have a pretty good line this season. Of course, I’m not confident Langston Walker can get the job done at LT, but overall I like the OL and the potential it has.
If the drop off from Peters to Walker, and yes it is a big drop off, wasn’t so large, I don’t think this OL would be considered “HORRIBLE” by this random guy….
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
They are all better players than two of our starters from last year, Dockery and the crap that played Center.
If the drop off from Peters to Walker, and yes it is a big drop off, wasn’t so large, I don’t think this OL would be considered "HORRIBLE" by this random guy….
With these two statements, you said almost everything there is to say about this OL as succinctly as possible.
"I know I'm a true receiver..." Roscoe Parrish, Buffalo Bills - May 2009
"In my heart, I know I'm funny." Lt Steven Hauk, Good Morning Vietnam - 1987
by thefourwinds on Jul 23, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I get what you’re saying, but “random guy” is inaccurate. He’s got six years of pro scouting experience, four with a pretty damned good organization under a pretty legendary GM (BAL; Ozzie Newsome). That has to count for something, even if it’s a step up from the “random” label.
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"Our style is simple but not that easy. Roll up your sleeves and play good, solid football." -- Marv Levy
by Brian Galliford on Jul 23, 2009 6:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Furthermore, the guy said he “glanced” at the depth chart. Seriously? He looked at a paper and figured it was Twitter-worthy? I don’t let thoughts that minor escape my brain. If I understand correctly,
1) He’s never seen the O-Line in action.
2) He’s in a completely different division (with the Browns and Bengals, no less).
3) Nearly everything in our offense has been revamped.
This O-Line has every possibility of failing, but worrying because some random scout DIDN’T ACTUALLY SEE them play is a borderline mental disorder.
Ha, wow. I think “worrying” is a little intense.
The scout is actually in NO division right now. He works for neither the Browns or the Ravens at the moment.
That doesn’t take away from the fact that he is an NFL scout, though. I’ve seen (and done) enough of the blowing off of these types of opinions during the pre-season from this fan base, but I thought, at a minimum, the fact that the guy has spent six years of his life scouting NFL talent would carry a little weight. Guess not! :)
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"Our style is simple but not that easy. Roll up your sleeves and play good, solid football." -- Marv Levy
by Brian Galliford on Jul 23, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, John Guy has been Director/Vice President/(insert arbitrary title here) of Pro Personnel for the last 8 years, so the mere fact that someone has been employed at a position unfortunately doesn’t necessarily mean they’re qualified to speak on related matters.
If the glove don’t fit, it couldn’t be Whit...
You have to call a spade a spade. I am not nearly as optimistic as you guys. I feel the OL is the most important part of a team and we do not have one proven starter in the NFL at their position. I have been following the NFL for 10+ years and I do not remember a circumstance anywhere near where we stand.
In the Bills defense, there were not many free agents worthy of signing. However signing TO does not mask our unproven and young O line.
Brad Butler
isn’t a “proven starter in the NFL”? I’m sorry, but I totally disagree w/ that statement completely. He ‘may’ be the best OL on the Bills roster right now. To say he isn’t a proven NFL quality OL, is just plain “out there”!!!
10+ years following the NFL and you dont’ remember Mike Williams? Or the GREAT Centers we fielded last season w/ Preston & Fowler? I could go on and on, but . . . . .
Hmmmm, something sounds fishy here to me.
Season Ticket Holder Sec: 312, Row: 15
"There's NO place like home when it's the Big Tree Inn"
Williams said:
and we do not have one proven starter in the NFL at their position
And Brad Butler hasn’t proven to be a starting quality player at offensive tackle.
Brad Butler
But he has proven to be an NFL starter…
by NorCal BillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
At guard, where he doesn’t play anymore.
And I’m not saying that Butler will fail at RT. I actually think he will do just fine. The question isn’t a yes or no, it’s exactly how good he will be. We know just how solid he is at guard, but is he going to be a great tackle? A good one, solid, average, below average? He’s pretty much an unknown at his new position.
There is a huge difference between lining up against 4-3 DEs, 3-4 OLBs and other blitzers then the interior battles he had with 4-3 DTs, and 3-4 DEs and NTs.
How can you consider....
Butler a proven T? How many games has he started at T? 4? Chambers was starting in front of him.
And you missed my point Pocono. You find me a team that has started 5 new lineman at 5 new positions in the NFL and then you have an argument.
Looking at the starting RT in the NFL. My guess Butler would not start on 80% of the other NFL teams.
I am hoping for the best best but the odds are against us.
Justin Jenkins played at my course Thursday night and I bought up my concern for our O line and his response was the no huddle.
Hangartner was a proven starter in Carolina. He started something like 10 games for them last year and only narrowly missed the cut at starter out of training camp.
by CanadianBillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's just clairify this guys qualifications real quick: so people get a complete picture and can make an informed opinion
From http://admin.clevelandbrowns.com/article.php?id=8371
Daniel Jerimiah: Quarterback Appalachia State
4 years production assistant ESPN
2 years personnel assistant for the Baltimore Ravens 2003-2004
2 years West Coast scout Baltimore Ravens 2005-2006
Top Draft picks 2005 Mark Clayton (WR Oklahoma) and Dan Cody (DE Oklahoma)
2006 Haloti Ngata (DT Oregon) Chris Chester (C Oklahoma) David Pittman (CB
Northwestern St.) Demetrius Williiams (Oregon)
2 Years National scout Cleveland Browns
2007 Joe Thomas (T Wisconsin) Brady Quinn ( QB Notre Dame) Eric Wright (CB UNLV)Brandon MacDonald (CB Memphis)
2008 Beua Bell (ILB UNLV) Martin Rucker (TE Missouri) Ahtyba Rubin (DT Iowa State)
So he was actually a pro scout for 4 years not six and the draft picks reflect his positional scope in those seasons in regards to influence on the draft. Judge for yourself what value he holds.
by MichiganBillsFan84 on Jul 23, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
My mistake you are correct, kaisertown
Leave it to a corporation to come up with a title for a one word job. I assumed it was a different position because of the fact that his bio differentiated it from his west coast scouting position.
by MichiganBillsFan84 on Jul 23, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree it is a drop off
but not a Big drop off. Like you said we will not know until at least pre-season when he will face an actual opponent. I will still have faith until i see otherwise.
"Hold ya chin up...nuh nuh nuh...gone"
-Marshawn Lynch-
It is definitely a drop-off in "talent"...
but if Walker gives up less than 13 sacks this year, does it really matter? Will people say that Walker is better than Peters (production versus potential)? Execution is the main element in fielding a successful offense and I believe that Walker will execute his blocks better than Peters did or would have done for us.
by NorCal BillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
It's more than just sacks allowed though...
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Since I have it handy. Here’s Ron’s grades of Peters:
http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2008/12/27/702783/peters-season
And KC Joyner’s POA numbers:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast/0-8-29/Point-of-attack—Bills-run-blocking.html
Peters gave up a ton of sacks, but he was actually right when he claimed that he was dominant the rest of the time.
His POA number was one of the best in the league too. Everybody who doesn’t think the Bills will miss Peters only looks at the 13 sacks allowed. His loss in the run game is absolutely going to be tough to replace. So Peters lost focus and hurt the team on about 10-20 plays last year year….he was pretty damn awesome the rest of the time. We are going to miss that dearly.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Actually, the one I worry about least is Langston Walker. He acquited himself well when he was asked to play LT last year, and he will probably get some help from Derek Fine (an excellent blocker). Brad Butler should be good as well, though he remains something of a question mark, and Eric Wood should be better than average as a rookie. I’m hopeful about Hangartner, though guarded after watching the Bills bring in so many “value” players at Center. My big worry is Levitre — not long term, but rather whether he will be ready to go as a rookie. If he isn’t, McKinney or Chambers could at least do an adequate job, or Butler could go back to OG if Bell performs well in the preseason.
My big concern is that the coaches will turn their eyes away if there is a problem and hope against hope that it solves itself rather than addressing it aggressively in Training Camp. Their jobs are on the line, so perhaps that won’t happen this year, but they have done that a lot in the past and it has driven me crazy (example: keeping Anthony Thomas as the #2 RB when it was obvious that Fred Jackson was the best person to assume that role). That could make the o-line horrible once again, but if Kugler and Schonert and smart and work actively to sure they have the best five on the field as starters then there is enough talent on the roster for a major improvement over last year.
I think some fans are trying to have their cake and eat it too with this OL. First people talk about how terrible the OL was last year. So Buffalo takes two players and moves them to more physically demanding positions, starts two rookies at guard and signs a decent FA center, and suddenly they’re going to be a good unit?
Right now, I would guess that this OL has a couple bright spots and a couple dissapointments and is something that fans will spend another season complaining about. To go back to the cake expression, people think that the bad performance from a couple of positions resulted in an awful performance from the group as a whole, but we’ve basically got 5 question marks this year. Are we really supposed to believe that somebody won’t be bad? What are the odds that 2 or even 3 guys dissapoint? This group has the potential to be pretty good this year and really good down the line, but the possibility that this really is one of the worst couple lines in the league this year is a very realistic one.
I like this unit for the long term, but starting two rookies in between a pretty unathletic pair of tackles is pretty unappealing for this season.
I’m still confident that Buffalo is going to regret their decision not to address LT. Even if Walker is solid over there, a left tackle could have made the whole line better. If we would have added that LT, then Walker is back to being a solid RT instead of an unknown at LT. Butler is back at guard where we know he is a quality starter which means that only one rookie is starting at guard. And I’ll take my chances with a rookie at tackle as opposed to guard. At OT, physical ability is more of a factor and rookies have had a far better success rate at OT than OG over the last 3 or 4 seasons.
by kaisertown on Jul 23, 2009 1:00 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with most of this. You’re taking two decent players and moving them to tougher positions. Then you’re throwing in two rookie guards (or backups with no significant starting experience), and then signing a center who was a backup on another team.
There’s no guarantee of solid play at any of the positions. And it has the potential of being really ugly.
This could turn out to be a decent line, but looking from the outside at each of the teams you’re going to get an overwhelming majority of people feeling this is a bottom 5 OL. I’m going to be skeptical until I see evidence that this can be an adequate line – hopefully that comes quickly.
I just think
that the Walker thing at LT is blown way out of proportion….He will be no worse than peters was last year, and I predict he will be more than capable…sure he’ll get beat, but you just have to hope those plays don’t decide the season. The concern for me is the 3 interior OL. That’s where it is for me. I’m not sold on Levitre, I am on Wood and Hangartner, but the fact remains they have to prove it. And against 3-4’s in our tough defensive division, there is A LOT TO PROVE
MARVelous - "I went from America's team to North America's Team" Terrell Owens
Kaisertown
I am actually not worried AT ALL about Butler or Walker. I am not concerned about Hangman or Wood either. I am concerned over Levitre, but as someone said earlier (and I posted a few weeks ago), that if Levitre stumbles, Butler will go back to RG, Walker to RT and Bell will get his chance at LT. I actually think that is our most “talented” OL formation, but I also think that ODB wants more experience protecting TE.
by NorCal BillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I responded to you above, I don’t think any of these guys are going to be outright failures (although i wouldn’t be surprised if one of the rookies isn’t ready). The problem is that Walker was just an OK right tackle. And now he’s the left tackle. Butler was an average guard. And now he’s the right tackle. Interior offensive lineman typical struggle as rookies and even the really good ones are just OK. So how good can Buffalo’s line really be if everybody is just OK? So while I’m not really worried about any of these guys, I just don’t buy into the philosophy that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. This team needs more than a line that is just OK. They need a dominant pair of run blockers that can convert short yardage consistently and open up the occasional huge hole. They need pass blockers that force teams to blitz to give our WRs single coverage. It’s probably not a line that is going to cost them games, but it certainly isn’t a line that’s going to win them any.
The OL
was terrible last year and how you can argue against the changes making an improvement… because you are trying to have your cake and eat it too, just for the sake of argument. They added 3 stronger, more physical players to the interior and they have 2 natural, life-long tackles as bookends… why couldn’t Bills fans expect improvement? The Bills honestly have the potential to steamroll people in the run game. 4 out of five of our projected starters are maulers… just nasty guys who love to drive and finish blocks.
Think about it: Wood and Levitre were pretty safe prospects, do you honestly think a staff on its last legs would cut a vet, trade their best OL, and draft 2 rookies to replace them if they weren’t sure it was going to work?
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
by ForeignArrow on Jul 23, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I actually start in a better place then everybody else, because I don’t think the line was horrible last year. It wasn’t any good, but it’s a line that allowed the backs to average the 14th best ypc in the league with 4.2 yards a pop. If you extrapolate Edwards’ sacks out to a full season, then he gets sacked 29.5 times. It’s certainly not great, but it actually would have been the 14th fewest in the league.
I think Bills fans are trying to turn last year’s OL into a scapgoat. if we blame the lack of success on Peters, Docker and Preston/Fowler then there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be better this year. But I don’t buy that Peters or Dockery were a problem last year and certainly weren’t the problem. Bills fans are going to miss Jason Peters. When our TE is hanging out on the line of scrimmage, when other teams refuse to blitz because they don’t have to and when fans start to remember just how dominant of a run blocker Peters often was, people will realize that he wasn’t the goat they made him out to be. Ron had Peters graded out quite high.
http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2008/12/27/702783/peters-season
And while I couldn’t find any fanposts of his that were specifically about Dockery, I know that he gave him a decent grade too. I remember when we cut Dock that Ron didn’t think he was very good, but was more than adequate.
My concern isn’t that Buffalo’s OL is going to stink. It’s that Walker isn’t good enough to be anything more than just OK. And that Butler isn’t any better than average. Rookie guards usually struggle. The interior positions are all about strength and technique and veterans tend to have more of both. I’ll bet right now that most fans are dissapointed in Wood and Levitre this year, get down on them and then are pleasantly surprised in a year or two when they develop into very good players. It’s not that the line is going to be bad, I just don’t think it’s going to be good.
As a whole the OL wasn’t terrible last year, but we had a couple horrible parts in Dockery and the Center position. Peters was excellent outside of the sacks, Butler was very good and Walker was decent. Dockery was ok at times, as well.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
I really wish I could understand why so many Bills fans are so happy Peters is gone. Walker is such a major downgrade at the position that it could cause the entire offense to stink again. Peter IS one of the best OT’s in the league, especially in the run game. I don’t know why more people won’t admit that. I’m nervous about whether we can even come close to getting Walker to play like a shell of Peters this season.
I totally, 100% agree on your Walker feelings. He’ll probably be ok, but we need more than that. Peters was much better than ok last year. That last sentence of yours is pretty much how I’d describe the line as well.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
I really wish I could understand why so many Bills fans are so happy Peters is gone.
I think it’s a combo of bitterness and my scapgoat philosophy. If Bills fans believe that the guys who aren’t on the team anymore were the problem (and they couldn’t be more right if they’re talking about Losman or the centers), then the team is automatically better this year. But people need to realize that while Dockery wasn’t at all good last year, he wasn’t why Buffalo only went 7-9. We’ve discussed this before, but Buffalo just lacks those great players. TO was a nice addition and hopefully some of the rookies and 2nd year guys will develop into the solution for that problem as well. I’ll take a line with a talent like Peters and four guys who are just OK over a group of 5 average players any day.
I don't think...
we are saying that Peters and Dock were the problem. But they were not going to help us get better either. Dock was above-average and a good teammate, no argument there, but he was paid as an elite G and hadn’t earned it with his play, too inconsistent and too costly going forward (they should have tried to trade him though). Peters was All-Pro and for good reason, but he didn’t care about the team. I don’t like Peters and I won’t hide it, I will never say Walker is an upgrade, but I do believe in addition by subtraction. We are better off without Peters, the coaching staff, the Oline, TE. Nobody is worrying who is going to play LT, or when your best player might decide to talk to his coach. Jason Peters is the Jay Cutler of offensive linemen. You can’t win playoff games with “b*%ches” on the Oline.
by NorCal BillsFan on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Did I miss something?
I clicked on the link and I really didn’t see that he was calling the O-line horrible so much as Buffalo’s depth horrible. Maybe I missed something but that seemed like an across the board statement…
BUF OL is HORRIBLE.
He said he looked at the depth charts, basically a list of all the players along the OL.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Oh, Duh!
Sorry, I’m new to Twitter-speak. I get it now. I thought he was trying and failed to write Buffalo. Yes, it was really late when I read it and now it’s really (for a non-work day) early.
by Ron From NM on Jul 23, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
That's funny...
:-)
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jul 23, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I think I might be the only guy here would would have been happier with Chambers (LT), Wood (LG), Hang ©, Butler (RG) and Walker (RT). No, I wouldn’t have been excited to see Chambers at LT but that would have minimized the disruption to the line. Also, I think Chambers may deal with the speed rushers better than Walker.
you are not alone, Ron.
I have said I thought the it would be better to keep Butler and Walker together.
"I BET YOU IF WE PUT A 12 DOZEN GLAZE DONUTS AT THE OTHER END ON KICK RETURN JAIME DUKES WILL BE OUR NUM # 1 RETURNER …… HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES DUKE APPLE PIE PUNKEN EATER DWINKE SMASHER DING DONG FLABER" - abayarde
Myself included – I thought Chambers performed incredibly well last year. The only question mark was could he do it day-in, day-out.
"I know I'm a true receiver..." Roscoe Parrish, Buffalo Bills - May 2009
"In my heart, I know I'm funny." Lt Steven Hauk, Good Morning Vietnam - 1987
by thefourwinds on Jul 23, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s a pretty good lineup, Ron. I like the minimal disruption angle. It makes more sense to only start one rookie instead of two, if you have the talent, and I think this lineup could gel more quickly (and make an impact that much sooner) than what is being touted as the probable first unit.
Get the Bills back to the big game!
Actully I would be more comfortable with that then what we have nowChambers might not be quite as good as Walker, but he would probebly handle speed rushers better at LT.
by CanadianBillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
He's just another ding dong flaber...
I honestly can’t think of why this guy would say this without a body of work to go by, other than to get hits on his story from Bills fans…Enough said right there…
And I love your idea by the way…
I love me some DB's...I might just be Dick Jauron's long lost twin!
He’s a scout. Not working for an NFL team right now; spent 4 years in Baltimore and 2 in Cleveland.
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"Our style is simple but not that easy. Roll up your sleeves and play good, solid football." -- Marv Levy
by Brian Galliford on Jul 23, 2009 6:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Some scouts stink...
there are talking heads everywhere and they all have an opinion on things they have only “glanced” at. Even if he was a scout at one time, does not mean he has been paying attention to other teams depth charts, player progression, schemes, or responsibilities within those schemes. The guy is looking for a job most likely and wanted to get his name out there, so maybe he decided to attack an easy target with a rabid fanbase in order to get his name spread around the internet virally. Either way, I don’t care what he has to say much. Now, if Ozzy Newsome came out and said it, that would carry some weight with me.
by NorCal BillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL, man – y’all were pretty quick to blow this off. Hope that’s not unwarranted…
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"Our style is simple but not that easy. Roll up your sleeves and play good, solid football." -- Marv Levy
by Brian Galliford on Jul 23, 2009 6:45 AM EDT reply actions
y’all were pretty quick to blow this off.
we’re Buffalo fans – we’re use to it
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jul 23, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Lets be honest, worst things have been said about or team in the last year alone. This is no biggy to us.
by CanadianBillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Well there are a couple of factors involved. As Rudy says below, there’s precedent for a “horrible” O-line to be competent enough to go/win the Super Bowl. I think you could argue that both Super Bowl participants this year had what probably would be classified as subpar lines (Arizona couldn’t run the ball at all until the playoffs), and I remember there being a lot of questions about the Giants O-line when they switched Diehl to LT and got rid of Pettitgout. Plus, it’s July, and we haven’t seen any of these dudes in action really.
Talent wise, I don’t think I’m particularly worried about this group, we’ve got just as much as Pittsburgh or Arizona from a year ago. What I’m worried about is continuity. All of those above lines I mentioned had at least been playing more or less together for several years, and in more or less the same position. That’s a lot of turnover.
by PozDispenser on Jul 23, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
there’s precedent for a "horrible" O-line to be competent enough to go/win the Super Bowl.
I’d say that there’s a precedent for one of the best teams in the league to win despite a horrible OL. Buffalo isn’t one of the best teams in the league. If the OL struggles, this team isn’t good enough to overcome it.
Just remember.....
The Steelers last year had a “HORRIBLE O-LINE” based on the critics. And they went on to win the superbowl.
The Bills are not at good as the Steelers, but my point is that if the coaching staff knows what they are doing, this line could work for the Bills
How many years can we go without making the playoffs...eventually the odds go in your favor.........right?!?!?
but my point is that if the coaching staff knows what they are doing
Therein lies the rub…
But I do agree that superbowls have been won with lesser o-lines…I will worry about the o-line in 53 days, 11 hours, 42 minutes, and counting…Until then, this is mere speculation…
I love me some DB's...I might just be Dick Jauron's long lost twin!
Sorry I used the quote wrong in the last post.
The Steelers last year had a "HORRIBLE O-LINE" based on the critics. And they went on to win the superbowl.
We also don’t have the defense the Steelers have to give our offense that many chances in a game.
The Steelers gave up fewer than 14 points per game. Only two other teams gave up less than 18 per game.
The Steelers won despite their OL. It was a complete mess. They averaged 3.7 yards per carry which was the 4th worst in the league. Roethlisberger got sacked 49 times, which was the 4th most in the league. The Steelers were good enough to overcome a terrible OL, Buffalo isn’t.
That just goes to show what haping the best defence in the league will do for you.
by CanadianBillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
who cares what some out of work schmuck has to say....
without seeing them play together……and nobody has, how can anyone make that statement. Our o-line has been horrible for years…….I for one am glad they totally revamped it!
Just throwing it out there
If Walker’s ability to handle speed rushers surfaces as a problem during camp and preseason, do we give Butler or Chambers a shot at LT?
I want to see movies of my dreams. - Built to Spill.
i would hope.
as for now they are going with who as seen the most experience at that position ( Walker) and he has proved to be capable.
"Hold ya chin up...nuh nuh nuh...gone"
-Marshawn Lynch-
Define problem...
I think they would rather just support Walker at LT. Butler won’t move. Chambers is the only one of those two you would see there.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jul 23, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that if it does become a proble your more likely to see a switch at LG with Chambers being thrown in there to help him out.
by CanadianBillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Two things that I can say about this...
First, I am actually glad we have 5 preseason games this year because we’ll need all of them for our O-Line to start gelling and playing consistently. I hope they all get a lot of play time including McKinney, Chambers, and Bell… We’ll have to see if these guys can play at anytime this season.
Second, our O-Line better get it together quick, because the last thing we need to see is Ryan Fitzpatrick for a number of games this year because of OL inadequacies. Trent Edwards has sat out games the last two years with injuries. Fitzpatrick does not seem like a competent enough backup to lead a team to more than a .500 record.
It’s way too easy to label anybody anything, because THE SEASON HASN’T BEGUN YET.
I could care less what other people feel about our O-line, because I firmly believe that this unit – with time and patience – will be better than our last couple of meger O-lines.
What worries me the most is Langston Walker and his lack of natural knee bending, which is a critical ability that efficient LT must have to be, well, efficient. He has never been a natural knee-bender, but he’s a very solid athlete for a man with his enormous (almost surrealistic) size. Does that then mean he’ll be able to handle terrifying pass rushers like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, John Abraham, Richard Seymour etc.?
The quick and straightforward answer of mine would probably be a resolute no, but it does mean, I’m confident, that he won’t be humiliated as much as a lot of these so-called ‘experts’ proclaim.
Switching Brad Butler to RT is a natural switch in positions because of his height (6-7), long arms and ferocious run-blocking, though it wouldn’t flabbergast me the slightest if he had some initial difficulties with getting used to the position again after three years at Guard.
The two rookies, Levitre and Wood, are the main reason I have hope for this O-line. I’m of the opinion that they’ll become very solid starters for many years to come and I base that on my things, primarily their toughness, aggressiveness, ferociousness and stability. Those four attributes are vastly important, if you want to built an efficient and stable O-line that you can count on.
by BillsfanfromDenmark on Jul 23, 2009 9:59 AM EDT reply actions
Everybody is Right
Let them say HORRIBLE. We have a collection of Lineman that haven’t played as a unit. Currently, we are pretty close to knowing who the starting five are going to be or at least three of the five. We are all excited about those two rookie studs we drafted in Wood and Levetrie. We have a whole training camp and five preseason games to play until we know exactly who is starting and who the depth chart is really going to be. Then after all of this we have Belicheck, Ryan and Sparano/Parcells to measure ourselves against twice a season. This line won’t see any advanced blitz schemes until preseason game #3 and the previously mentioned measureing devices above are capable of much more. Let them say HORRIBLE. Personnally, over the last 7 – 10 years we have had much worse and this year we have more options offensively. Who ever does start and who ever does provide depth, will still have to get knocked around a bit before any kind of cohesion or chemistry can develop. It’s a safe observation for anyone outside Bills Nation. We will have the last laugh here, that is what I see happening.
Litmus Test
Will be Aug. 29th against Pittsburgh. It will be our 4th preseason game and their 3rd when usually the starters get the most play time. Considering it will be in their home stadium and with their attacking defense, we’ll see how far our OL has developed. Before that time, I don’t think we can truly say if they are HORRIBLE or good.
I agree - sort of
Normally during the pre-season ALL teams use both a vanilla offense as well as defense, so I’m not so sure just how much of a ‘test’ it will actually be. IMO, MNF in Foxborro will the TRUE test…
Season Ticket Holder Sec: 312, Row: 15
"There's NO place like home when it's the Big Tree Inn"
Let me get this straight....
Some twit tweets that he “glanced” over our depth chart and surmised that we have a horrible OL, and you made this statement the crux of your story? Sorry, Brian, but that’s a little flimsy. The guy was dumped anyway by a horrible organization. If the Bills can go 7-9 with the likes of Terrence Pennington or Mike Gandy manning tackle positions, then I feel pretty darn good about our OL. Screw Daniel Jeramiah. I took a glance at NFL depth charts and gleaned some things… SF, NO, GB, CIN, HOU, and the NFC champs ARI all have “horrible” OL on paper. Unfortunately for Mr. Jeramiah, ink doesn’t win football games.
On a side note: GB has Duke Preston as a projected starter… if that doesn’t say it all about their depth at OL, what does?
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
I thought the crux of my story was about how he might be right, but he’s not right yet… I believe the term “clairvoyant critic” comes to mind. I also said that I was optimistic about this line. :)
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"Our style is simple but not that easy. Roll up your sleeves and play good, solid football." -- Marv Levy
by Brian Galliford on Jul 23, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Scott Wells or Jason Spitz will be their starting center. Wells is just hurt right now (should be back by camp, but might miss a week or so). And Spitz is also at the top of the deth chart at RG. Josh Sitton will either start at RG or backup both guards. They drafted TJ Lang too. The only reason Preston looks like he could see any playing time is because they have 4 or 5 different guys competing for the RT spot. Once the starter is settled, then all the losers become backups at other positions.
Preston’s one and only one chance of even making Green Bay’s roster is if Scott Wells starts, moving Spitz to guard and opening up a spot as the backup center.
I was just looking at a GB depth chart
and Preston was at the top of it…. take it up with them.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
by ForeignArrow on Jul 23, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad to see the OL FINALLY getting attention
Generally-speaking, the OL has been horrible ever since our Super Bowl years. The only QB who could win with it was Doug Flutie, a fantastic scrambler. Most of the time our QBs ran for their lives; then the pass blocking improved the past few years and few linemen could open a hole for our running backs. Oh, well…… at least now the Bills have figured out how important this part of the game is, and that’s a good sign. TO isn’t going to determine how much better our offense will be this year; the OL line and the QB will tell us.
Bledsoe threw for the most yards in team history...
his O Line must have been OK.
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
by MattRichWarren on Jul 23, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I said "generally" but even then
Bledsoe didn’t win that year. He fired bombs all season under pass-happy OC Kevin Gilbride and the Bills were 8-8.
by ccthemovieman on Jul 23, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Couple more thoughts:
Was Buffalo’s OL really that bad last year? I didn’t think they were good, but as a group, I didn’t think they were all that bad either.
And I think it’s very unlikely that this OL is actually good this year. They might not be bad, but I can’t see how they’re going to be good. To be a good offensive line, don’t you need good players? What I mean by that is, does Buffalo have one guy who isn’t in the bottom 10-15 starters at his position on the OL? So I think Buffalo has a bunch of mediocre guys. And a bunch of mediocre guys makes for a mediocre offensive line. And that wouldn’t be so bad, but that assumes that everybody is actually going to not suck. Who thought Peters would give up 10+ sacks last year? Dockery looked solid the year before. What happens if Walker or Butler struggle with pass rushers? What happens if Levitre is mistake prone? Does this OL have the talent to overcome bad individual performances? I’m going with, no, it doesn’t.
A lot of whats...
Come on kaiser…We haven’t even played a preseason game yet…
What happens if Maybin crushes Brady’s knee to pulp, Pennington finds his weak arm again, and Sanchez turns into San-cheese? There are way to many what if’s that will be answered soon enough, don’t you think? We had a ton of bad individual performances last year on the line, so my thinking is we have no where to go but up…
I love me some DB's...I might just be Dick Jauron's long lost twin!
Would you say the same if he said the Bills line would be rock solid after some preseason game time?
We have some serious questions to be answered about our O-line. Even if 50 percent of them go our way, that is still a lot of problems for this line to overcome. Could it happen….yes and I hope it does, but it is more likely that our new O-line experiences significant growing pains this season.
"I BET YOU IF WE PUT A 12 DOZEN GLAZE DONUTS AT THE OTHER END ON KICK RETURN JAIME DUKES WILL BE OUR NUM # 1 RETURNER …… HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES DUKE APPLE PIE PUNKEN EATER DWINKE SMASHER DING DONG FLABER" - abayarde
I can honestly say I would…One pre-season game will not prove a thing…Again, everything about the o-line in mere speculation at this point…
I love me some DB's...I might just be Dick Jauron's long lost twin!
I hate work
Especially when it gets in the way of my rumblings replies. :)
My point is that we’ll not really know how this line is doing until MNF…Our biggest test will be going up against Wilfork and the like…
I love me some DB's...I might just be Dick Jauron's long lost twin!
agreed, but even if the O-line looks poor on MNF, isn't it to late for the coaches to make changes
to the line? Maybe the coaches would make changes in a desperate last ditch effort to save their jobs, but it is hard to believe the yet again reshuffled line would be able to perform well enough to save the season. I would say they have until after the first preseason game to make changes. After that, we need to have our starters set and getting used to each other.
"I BET YOU IF WE PUT A 12 DOZEN GLAZE DONUTS AT THE OTHER END ON KICK RETURN JAIME DUKES WILL BE OUR NUM # 1 RETURNER …… HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES DUKE APPLE PIE PUNKEN EATER DWINKE SMASHER DING DONG FLABER" - abayarde
I’d like to see a “set” o-line by the 3rd preseason game. Then they can go to work on the 3rd, 4th and 5th games.
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jul 23, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
even if that new line includes 2 rookies ?
what’s the difference…..we are talking about 1 game :-)
"I BET YOU IF WE PUT A 12 DOZEN GLAZE DONUTS AT THE OTHER END ON KICK RETURN JAIME DUKES WILL BE OUR NUM # 1 RETURNER …… HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES DUKE APPLE PIE PUNKEN EATER DWINKE SMASHER DING DONG FLABER" - abayarde
oh definately just semantics – thats just what I prefer. your right just one game
I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying
by J2 on Jul 23, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
"It's too late baby, yeah it's too late...."
Yes and no…I’m a waffler on this one…Here’s why.
If the line looks poor on Monday night and we get beat, how is this any worse than the Bills have been against the Pats over the course of the last 4 years? They still will have not beat them…So, would you chalk that up to the line needing time to gel, or would you flush the entire training camp and pre-season down the crapper and totally revamp the line? I can’t see Jauron with his finger on the handle after just one game against a team that has owned us year & and year out (man, that was tough to write) since before Dick was even here. He would probably just get that depressed little kid look on his face, and wait for the next game. If he blows up the line totally, it won’t be until the bye week, imo.
I could see him making a subtle change before the bye week, like taking Chambers or McKinney and putting him in the Levitre spot, or if Levitre doesn’t win the job in training camp making the switch from Chambers/McKinney to Levitre…Anything more than this, like moving Bell to RT, and Butler to RG would wait until the bye week…Why, you might ask? Just look at Jauron…I mean, the guy couldn’t even get his challenge flag out of his pocket and throw it with enough authority in time when a game was on the line…Will that demeanor change just because his job may be on the line?
Who knows what Ralph is thinking about Jauron…He’s 90 something years old…My dad is 77, and had an aneurism this mast March…Ever since then everything he discusses is discussed in the very short term only…And Ralph just lost a Daughter, so he may be in a very reflective mood…What am I getting at? Well, if you’re 90 would you want to put yourself through the stress of firing a ding dong flaber key staff, and having to hire new people? I don’t know if you’ve ever owned your own business before, but firing people that you hired, and like as people is extremely difficult…Even for someone that isn’t 90. Anyway, Ralph obviously knows that they just got rid of a Probowl LT, and are trying to re-build the line…He gave Dick an extension after 6 games last year, so don’t you think he’d just give Dick the opportunity to get his line in order?
Ok…This is what I wanted to get out yesterday, but work kept getting in the way…I’m off my soapbox. Sorry if when reading this it came across as harsh…I didn’t mean it to sound that way if it does…Just insert smiley faces whenever the tone sound gruff.
:)
I love me some DB's...I might just be Dick Jauron's long lost twin!
Would you say the same if he said the Bills line would be rock solid after some preseason game time?
If someone came out and said that our O-Lin is rock solid before they even played a reg season game, I would ignore that statement just as I have with this scouts.
by NorCal BillsFan on Jul 23, 2009 5:57 PM EDT reply actions
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