Around the AFC East: Ranking the division's wide receivers
by Brian Galliford on Jul 24, 2009 8:00 AM EDT
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PrintIt's Friday, which means that it's time for another installment of Around the AFC East with The Phinsider, Pats Pulpit and Gang Green Nation. On each Friday of the past three weeks, my fellow divisional bloggers and I have ranked the running backs, linebackers and defensive tackles in the division. Buffalo has yet to take the top spot in any set of rankings from any of the four blogs.
That changes this morning. We're ranking wide receivers today. Read on for my rankings (which i realize I've spoiled), then check out my peers' rankings for a little pre-training camp smack talk.
1. Buffalo Bills: I should make it clear right off the top that, obviously, I'm ranking the receivers irrespective of mitigating circumstances such as quarterback play, line play, etc. Buffalo gets the edge over the loaded Patriots, and clearly, that decision can (and will) be debated either way. I took the Bills because I think that the duo of Terrell Owens and Lee Evans causes more problems for secondaries than the Patriots' top two receivers. Likewise, I believe that Josh Reed has a more clearly-defined niche in this group than do the Patriots' contenders for third receiver. Each team has solid developmental prospects (in Buffalo's case, Steve Johnson and James Hardy), and Roscoe Parrish is good for the occasional nifty play as well. Seriously, folks - Buffalo has enviable depth at receiver, and you can count the number of teams that would pass on this depth on part of one hand.
2. New England Patriots: Folks like to talk about the Fitzgeralds and Johnsons of the world, but I still believe Randy Moss is the best receiver in football. Wes Welker is an outstanding complement. Those two don't need a third receiver to be effective, but Joey Galloway and Greg Lewis give the Patriots two excellent, veteran options that only adds to their luxurious depth. Rookie Brandon Tate has enormous potential, and he could not be in a more ideal situation to learn from some of the league's best players. Tom Brady is a lucky man.
3. Miami Dolphins: Miami and New York are clearly a (several) step(s) below the Bills and Patriots in the receiving department. Between the two, however, I'm giving a clear advantage to Miami purely because of the presence of Ted Ginn. His second year in the league was quite solid, and as the third year is generally the break-out year for receivers, Ginn could very well be in for a big season. Davone Bess and Greg Camarillo are solid enough as possession-type receivers to keep coverages off of Ginn. The Dolphins also have a few nice project-type players (with outstanding size) to work with in rookies Patrick Turner and Brian Hartline, as well as Brandon London.
4. New York Jets: The Jets finally rank last at something! That doesn't mean, however, that I don't think Jerricho Cotchery is a useful player; on the contrary, I think he could play for most teams in some capacity. He has 235 receptions in the last three seasons, and his physical, reliable style will be welcome for rookie QB Mark Sanchez. The problem, however, lies beyond Cotchery. There isn't a clear-cut second receiver; Chansi Stuckey, Brad Smith, David Clowney, Marcus Smith and perhaps even special teams ace Wallace Wright will all get looks in the pre-season. If one doesn't emerge, however, the Jets will have a hard time trying to get Cotchery open - unless TE Dustin Keller can emerge as a viable threat in his second NFL season.
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Man this one’s gonna get heated at Pats Pulpit. :-)
Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
Again, they included other positions/factors in there ranking (just like the RB ranking they did). I have to agree with Brian on this. Top to bottom, the bills have the best WR corps. NE’s top two is probably better than Buffalo’s top two, but with Josh Reed at #3 and Johnson/Parrish at #4, the bills have far and away better depth.
And really Pats Pulpit? Laveranues Coles? Ya couldn’t have done a quick depth chart check before posting? Even Daniel Jeremiah can do a quick scan.
If the glove don’t fit, it couldn’t be Whit...
Yeah
That was a dumb error on my part. That’s what I get for not doing my final roster run through. Thanks to MRW for catching it.
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by Brian Galliford on Jul 24, 2009 8:05 AM EDT reply actions
gang green is such a bunch of homers =) they always seem to rank themselves above where they should be…i mean, everyone’s a homer, but miami’s WRs are clearly better than the jets. once you get past jericho, the walls fall down.
by the_prophet on Jul 24, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
once you get past jericho, the walls fall down.
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by Ron From NM on Jul 24, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
only if you have marched around it 7 times.
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You know....
once you get past Ginn in Miami, the walls fall down. Chad Pennington is honestly a genius at the QB position and has made a lot of marginal players look a lot better than they really are… like the Camarillos of the world. I don’t think there’s a dime’s worth of difference between the two, really.
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by ForeignArrow on Jul 24, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Davone Bess
he is there. He had the second greatest rookie season ever for an undrafted wide receiver
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by dolphinsinbuffalo on Jul 24, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
at least the Dolphins have 3 50+ reception receivers on their roster
After Cotchery, the Jets next highest total among WRs was 32 last year.
And you can’t tell me that Camarillo and Bess aren’t better than Clowney, Stuckey, and Smith.
If you gave Pennington
Clowney and Stuckey he’d do the same with them that he did with Camarillo and Bess. That was the point I was trying to make. Pennington always produces and he’s never had a bunch of receivers. The Dolphins should have addressed the position if they want their offense to make it out of the 1st round of the playoffs or even make the playoffs.
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by ForeignArrow on Jul 24, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If I were taking any three receivers from the division it would be Moss, Lee and Welker (sorry T.O.). Welker proved last year that it wasn’t just Brady that allowed him to put up big numbers; he did it with Cassel too. He is a tough, gritty little guy and you gotta respect that.
But I agree with Brian that the Bills have a better third receiver in Josh Reed who should thrive in his new role. He is now able to concentrate on what he is best at, finding soft spots in coverage that always seem to be juuuust barely past the first down marker.
Can we count in Roscoe’s return prowess here? If so, I think the Bills have the edge.
And here comes the smack talk…the Jets receivers are a joke, no way they aren’t last in the division. Talk about not providing any (experienced) weapons for a rookie quarterback.
Yaaaay, finally something we can beat up on the Jets about!
I finally agree team-by-team with your rankings this week, Brian. Not that I was far off from your other rankings.
Nice to see something we can stick in the face of those obnoxious Jets fans.
I’m sure most people are excited by our WR situation in Buffalo this year. What’s not to like? Double coverage no more for Lee Evans, opening up the deep ball possibilities for him once again as well as T.O., a solid possession guy in the slot in Josh Reed, a possible home run threat in Roscoe, and a couple of up-and-coming young guns at the position, too (Steve Johnson, James Hardy).
Get the Bills back to the big game!
yeah the Jets
don’t even know what is going on. Rather weird that they were the only team to not rank their team last. Even if you wanted to go over there and debate it they don’t even have any one over there that comments.
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by dolphinsinbuffalo on Jul 24, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a pretty good analysis Brian.
I agree with pretty much everything you put in your analysis on each team. The only difference is, I would rank New England over Buffalo, as much as it pains me to do so. But your guys and the Pats are so close, it’s almost a tie for the number one spot. No disrespect intended, but I would have to say that the Pats having the veteran depth of Galloway and Lewis is what gives them the slight edge over the Bills.
But I think the two corps are so close that I think it’s almost going to come down to personal opinions as to which one is the better group of recievers.
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yep I agree
and I wouldn’t want the Pats over the Bills anyway. otherwise good rankings.
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by dolphinsinbuffalo on Jul 24, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
At the risk of getting booed out...
I think Phinsider and Pats’ Pulpit had it right. To me, it comes down to the 3rd/4th spots. Moss/Welker vs. Evans/Owens is a wash. I think I’d rather have Lewis and Galloway than Reed and Parrish/Johnson/Hardy. Don’t take this as a knock on Reed or the potential of Johnson and Hardy, but I think I take the Pats’ receivers for their proven track record.
I can admire great talent
and I think the Bills have that talent starting at WR, but I have to agree…
because Galloway and Lewis are greater together than Reed and 3 guys who haven’t done much yet at WR.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Joey Galloway caught 13 passes in 9 games last year. He’s been an injury risk his entire career. He’ll turn 38 in November. Call me crazy, but I think he’s pretty much done. He could be anywhere between making a big play here or there from the slot to not even making the roster.
Greg Lewis is going to be an excellent acquisition for them. He’s a smart receiver in the mold of Reed, though he’s a much better deep threat, too. He’s an upgrade from Jabar Gaffney.
I still like the Bills, because I think Reed’s niche is more clearly defined, and I think that Owens/Evans cause more deep coverage issues than do Moss/Welker (Welker’s not really a deep threat).
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by Brian Galliford on Jul 24, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Trust me, i’m all about the Bills’ receivers, but I don’t see enviable depth, if forced as a result of injury. The Patriots have guys who’ve been “seasoned and seared,” if you will. They’re albe to retain all that experience at the positon provides one. For me, the similarity between Owens and Evans doesn’t make them better than the difference between Moss and Welker.
I hate the Pats and find Moss’ giving up on the Raiders to be just as deplorable as anything Owens has said or done. But I can’t yet place the Bills at #1 alone. It’s a tie for me, until the season shakes out!
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Not sure I take Moss over T.O.
Moss has more talent, but he is not as competitive. He gives up on/takes plays off more than T.O. I take Evans over Welker any day and twice on Sunday. Like Brian said, Evans can go deep. I take Reed over Galloway on age alone, and Johnson over Lewis (I know …. pure homerism, but Johnson will prove me right). The real factor that will decide which group has the better year is the QB.
"I BET YOU IF WE PUT A 12 DOZEN GLAZE DONUTS AT THE OTHER END ON KICK RETURN JAIME DUKES WILL BE OUR NUM # 1 RETURNER …… HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES DUKE APPLE PIE PUNKEN EATER DWINKE SMASHER DING DONG FLABER" - abayarde
I kind of agree. Reed is our only other WR who has done anything in this league. Brandon Tate is in a similar situation to Johnson and Hardy, young and a ways to go. Parrish is basically useless in this discussion.
I also kind of think the Pats’ duo is better anyhow. They compliment each other so damn well.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Sadly
Parrish is useless in 66% of team discussions. I’d still love to see him orchestrate the Wild Cat, but Buffalo is too cautious.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Too cautious? Didn’t we see both Marshawn and Freddie run it last year?
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by Brian Galliford on Jul 24, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Cautious in the way they ran the play(s)
I remember Jackson being used in the formation, but it was always a run and, I believe, always to the same side. I know Buffalo was somewhere among the top in terms of using the “Wild Cat,” but they really weren’t creative with it, using it more as a modified running play.
I don’t even recall Lynch running out of that formation.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I know for sure Lynch ran it a few times. And yeah, they were, indeed, all runs. I gotcha now.
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by Brian Galliford on Jul 24, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s a smart receiver in the mold of Reed
In what way???
Lewis is only 180 lbs and is an inch or two taller than Reed. His career ypc is 18.9, Reed’s is 11.6. Lewis has proven to be a quality deep threat, Reed not so much. I really don’t see how they are comparable in any way other than being the 3rd WR on their team’s depth charts….
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
I guess my comparison between the two came in the realm of reliability and being under-appreciated. The Eagles were seemingly always looking for an upgrade over Lewis, just as the Bills have been searching for years for an upgrade over Reed. Neither is a full-time NFL starter, but in the right situations, they can be quite productive.
So I guess I was comparing situations as opposed to skill sets… as well as their penchant to make the necessary, yet unheralded play.
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by Brian Galliford on Jul 24, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
fair enough
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
To me it's opposite
I rank the Patriots higher, but it is mostly because I consider Moss/Welker better than Evans/Owens. (I believe Owens started slowing down last year, for the first time in his career) I initially liked the Bills’ depth better, but I must admit that is mostly based on hunches.
James Hardy, especially, is a bit of an unknown. What is your expectations for him this year?
If last year was a slowing-down for Owens, i’ll take slowing down any day and any year.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
His totals were ok
but his catch rate and his ypc dropped. I didn’t watch a whole lot of Cowboys football last year, but this is the opinion of Bill Barnwell from Football Outsiders last year
I still like the Bills’ move. It was bold and could work out very well.
Tom brady would have a better year with our receivers than his
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-Marshawn Lynch-
I don’t know about that. I just don’t know if that can be stated as a truth.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
well no, but i think it would be a good possibility
"Hold ya chin up...nuh nuh nuh...gone"
-Marshawn Lynch-
NE, BUF, NYJ, MIA would be my rankings.
I think NE is ahead of us because of how well Moss and Welker compliment each other. Our duo has more individual talent, but together I think NE is better. The impact of Wes Welker is completely understated. He’s like a super awesome Josh Reed. His numbers also dwarf Evans’ numbers, which is both due to the QB situations and Welker’s overall ability to just churn out the catches, yards and first downs.
The proven backups for NE give them a slight edge too. I would obviously take Johnson and Hardy over Galloway and Lewis for the next couple of years, but for this year, the NE guys might be better. Brandon Tate also has a really, really, really bright future. He’s explosive and has more natural ability than both Johnson and Hardy.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
and I’d take the Jets over Miami too. Cotchery is the best WR on either team there and that’s why I put them ahead of Miami, though they’re pretty much equal. Miami is a bunch of possession receivers and an okay deep threat in Ginn.
Actually, now thinking about it, I might give Miami a slight edge simply because they have 3 decent options even if the Jets have one better one. If the Jets had another WR that has proven anything, I’d certainly rank them ahead. Right now, I guess I’ll just remain conflicted about whether Cotchery should be enough to give them enough. I really like Clowney though, he could turn into a decent player.
I’m surprised the Jets did nothing to upgrade that WR group though.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
AND LETS GET SOMETHING OUT OF THE WAY
Wes Welker is not a legit #2, per se. He is a slot receiver… he can play outside occasionally but he does not thrive there. I don’t suppose it matters where you line him up, but I think it should mean something that the Patriots don’t even have more than one legitimate guy who can line up outside the slot. The Bills have at least 4, and all of them can also play inside. Wes Welker is honestly one of the most overrated players in football, and it drives me bananas… if the term “product of a system” were ever appropriate, it is here.
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by ForeignArrow on Jul 24, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well they seem to have done pretty well without that second “legitimate” outside WR.
Who cares if he’s a product of the system? He’s a perfect fit for it and extremely productive. Isn’t that what a team is looking for? And is he really a product of the system? He caught 67 balls in his final year in Miami with Joey Harrington and Cleo Lemon at QB….
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Who cares?
For the sake of this argument when the entire point of the thread is to determine who has the best receiving corps, everybody had better care. Because if you just took Welker from a talent standpoint then the Pats would not be in the discussion for the best receiving corps in the AFCE. Don’t write it off like it’s not a relevant point.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
by ForeignArrow on Jul 24, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
But why would you just look at it from a talent standpoint? Doesn’t production and fit for the system mean the most?
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
It should. Obviously, Welker’s numbers are inflated by how good of a coach he has. But that’s different from his numbers being inflated from how perfect of a fit he is in the scheme. If Welker were solely a product of coaches, scheme and Brady, then why hasn’t NE had WRs as productive as him over the years?
ForeignArrow, you're right on the money
Wes welker is not an elite receiver and to those posting, comparing him to Lee Evans – COME ON!!! Yes, he’s a gritty white guy who goes over the middle – people love him for that and he is vastly over-rated. Give me Roscoe over Welker on our team for crying out loud. When he caught those 67 balls, that was because he was virtually the only option.
Holy crap. Really? In four seasons, Welker has averaged approx. 80 catches a year. In four seasons, Parrish has averaged 24 catches a year. I’ll give you Parrish if I get Welker.
If the glove don’t fit, it couldn’t be Whit...
2005 – 29 catches and 434 yards 0 touchdowns.
2006 – 67 catches and 687 yards 1 touchdown. Only real option for Miami.
This was before he was apart of the “greatest offense ever”. Put Parrish in his place he may not get those numbers but he may get pretty close, IMHO i believe Reed would get those numbers in the second slot for Brady.
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by TearsofaClown on Jul 24, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
2005 – 29 catches and 434 yards 0 touchdowns.
That would be a career year for Roscoe! He’s only caught more than 29 balls once, when caught a whopping 35. It is frivolous to compare Roscoe Parrish’s receiving skills to Wes Welker.
If the glove don’t fit, it couldn’t be Whit...
However, it’s fair to compare Welker’s punt-return prowress to Parrish’s. Which, honestly, ranks fairly close to Rocoe. Welker’s the real deal, and Miami seemed content using him in a fashion similar to Parrish in Buffalo. That was their mistake.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying that Parrish is better than Welker as a receiver, I just felt that when you said he averaged 80 catches over the last fours years it was a bit misleading, that’s why I put those stats up there.
I still believe that while he may not be as overall good as Welker is/was if you put him in the same position as Welker he would put up similar stats, but then again I’m sure Brady can make just about anyone look better. This is all speculation and we may never know but just my opinion.
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by TearsofaClown on Jul 24, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, seriously
that’s absolutely ridiculous
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Welker has the stats to say otherwise. The Bills have been trying to get Roscoe involved in the pass game and have not really been able to. Use the system as an excuse if you want, but I think any team in the league would continue feeding the ball to Welker if all he did was keep catching the ball and getting first downs. And if its only the scheme and anyone can do it, why aren’t there more productive slot receivers in the NFL.
And I don’t know who compared him to Lee Evans, they couldn’t be more different. I would personally take Evans over Welker, but no way I would take any other slot receiver ofver Welker.
Whoa whoa whoa
Yes, he’s a gritty white guy who goes over the middle – people love him for that and he is vastly over-rated.
I think you should consider this statement without the race factor.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Brian, you make an excellent case for the Bills, particularly with this line:
I took the Bills because I think that the duo of Terrell Owens and Lee Evans causes more problems for secondaries than the Patriots’ top two receivers
But I’ve still gotta pick the Pats. My reasoning is that Randy Moss is simply that good. I think people give depth too much credit in these when sometimes the answer is as simple as, who has the best player. Welker is more annoying than he is a true threat, but he fits that system like a glove. You can’t use system in the, NE has a great scheme and their WRs are more productive, sense. But you can judge these players on how well they fit in with what the team tries to do.
The Jets and Dolphins are really close. I think Cotchery is clearly better than Ginn. But Ginn could be a serious threat over the top with a QB other than Pennington. With my same logic about system, Camarillo and Bess are good fits for a team that runs a bunch of short quick routes and I’ll pick the phins to just barely edge out the Jets.
ahhhh
what is with you people. drive me crazy, dont have enough people liking our own team in one of our biggest strengths. if, as all the other rankings, this is based off talent, its gotta be the bills NOT the pats. TO and Moss are equal. i mean even look at their stats, its like a freaking mirror image. evans sooooooo much better than welker. in tds, yards, yds avg….everything but catches really. so i dont get how people might think welker is better. reed is soo much better than a washed up galloway. lewis is the x factor….he is good….probably better than reed and gives them a better outside threat to help welker…..but he alone will not make up for the fact we have evans. ahhhh everyday i come here hoping that at least our fans can be a little homerish in some ways and everyday i get dissapppointed….
Bills make me wanna SHOUT!
This is more than showing fandom for the Bills. Simply picking the Bills because you’re a fan of them, shows you have little understanding of your opponents’ wares.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
i did point out my argument i believe
so im not “simply picking the bills.” i truly believe that anyone not picking the bills is simply picking the pats because of brady…..
Bills make me wanna SHOUT!
by silverstreak3k on Jul 24, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You can believe it, but I gave no thought to Brady or Edwards in any of my assessments here.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
he validly made his point why the Bills are better
and I agree on this one, they are better talent-wise. People on here are a little bit too afraid of being a homer that they can’t give credit where it is due. But this one is close…
Moss vs. TO – I’ll give Moss a slight edge.
Welker vs. Evans – Give me Evans any day.
I would rank the rest Reed, Lewis, Parrish and then Galloway (who I think is washed up).
So yeah, this is one category I think the Bills should take.
Well, actually Welker has superior yards and TD numbers to Evans as well since he joined NE, which is really all that matters for this comparison.
Welker: 223 receptions, 2,340 yards, 11 TD’s
Evans: 118 receptions, 1,866 yards, 8 TD’s
I don’t know how you can say Evans is so much better than Welker. Evans is obviously a FAR superior deep threat, but Welker is such a good possession and underneath receiver. Looking at talent and athleticism alone, Evans has the edge, but isn’t the point ranking the best receivers and how they help their teams???
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Right-o
Oh and and and……….
Welker is clearly a slot WR playing above his potential as a #2, while Evans is (by most fans’ accounts) being downgraded from a #1 to a #2 (time will tell how that goes and if that’s true).
It’s truly hard to compare Evans and Welker as they haven’t played their position with any amount of relative similarity.
I’m worried that Evans and TO will be too similar and won’t give the Bills that needed wrinkle to help them where they need it. I’m hopeful they’re able to use both of them as the Cardinals have done with Fitzy and Boldin.
In my opinion, Fitzgerald is the best WR to play the game today, and best since Jerry Rice. Moss is a one-trick pony…but man is it a great trick and entertaining dog and pony show.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
K, K, K
why should we ignorethe number welker put up when he didnt have another good wr? does that mean we cant count any seasons evans didnt have a good 2nd option? flawed logic in my opinion.
Bills make me wanna SHOUT!
by silverstreak3k on Jul 24, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say you count them if they occured with the Patriots. It doesn’t matter what happened with his old team in this comparison.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
how do you figure sports fan
when he was in a worse passing attack, he was anemic, he goes to the almighty pats and suddenly becomes pro bowl caliber? no, hes in a system that is great for him, but that doesnt make him amazing. look at graham harrell…..GREAT system qb, nothing more. didnt even make 3rd string in the nfl. welkers success goes more to the pats system and talent at QB and O-line than his overall talent.
Bills make me wanna SHOUT!
by silverstreak3k on Jul 24, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s with the comedic slander:
how do you figure sports fan
Really, this site is above that sort of thing.
The thing is that this is a comparison of the players on their current teams, under current circumstances. I don’t know how you can’t look at Welker’s great ability and contribution as anything other than fantastic, and even highlighted more by the fact that the Pats found a way to get that out of him.
Maybe i’m not understanding how you’re assessing these guys: like an All-Madden approach, perhaps? As in, take these guys, put them on such a such team, with such and such players, and they’ll rise to the top. If that’s the case, then yes, Evans wins over Welker for me. Evans might fit in better in more systems than Welker would, but in this division, Welker fits in better than many tried and true #2 WRs do with their respective teams.
BTW, Evans is more similar to Moss, imo.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
dude
it was a joke. from family guy, sorry if it offended. i am studying for the bar so im a little more adversarial lately. but seriously i dont ever mean to offend anyone on this site.
and yea i guess my approach is the madden approach you are talking about. my approach is purely talent and thats why i think evans is better.
Bills make me wanna SHOUT!
by silverstreak3k on Jul 24, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Aah…i’m not in tune with family guy; I get vetoed on it all the time.
The only quote I remember is his son saying something like: “Dad, I made you this painting. It’s mostly an expression of my teenage angst, but it’s also a moo-cow.”
Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That's exactly the point.
BTW, Evans is more similar to Moss, imo
Comparing Evans to Welker is kinda pointless because it’s not a balanced comparison. The two are totally different kinds of receivers. Welker is a slot/possession receiver who mainly works the short underneath routes. Evans is more of the deep threat type receiver. If you want an accurate comparison, Evans is more like Moss and TO, but Welker contributes in a different way.
If Welker did more deep routes or Evans did more slot/possession type stuff, then you could make a fair comparison of the two.
"Why don't you put that in a memo and entitle it 'Shit I Already Know'!" - Sarge from Red vs. Blue
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Because Welker wasn’t on the Patriots then. He is now. Isn’t that what this comparison is all about, Welker on the Pats? And why should Evans’ previous production count when it wasn’t with his current QB, anyhow?
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
so you are bringing into account the QB play
im not. im doing it strictly on talent. and i think talent wise, evans is far superior. but evans on the pats and see amazing numbers opposite moss and getting passes from brady
Bills make me wanna SHOUT!
by silverstreak3k on Jul 24, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really trying to. I’m trying to talk about current situations. Evans plays with Edwards now, shouldn’t we look at how he performs and what he means to the offense with Trent at QB?
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
"I don’t know how you can say Evans is so much better than Welker."
We watch the games… not just regurgitate stats
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
by ForeignArrow on Jul 24, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Then you would notice how often Welker is WIDE open if you were watching the Pats play. That’s him and his ability to get off the LOS. I don’t just regurgitate stats, and I hope you would know that by now. I was responding to the comment that Evans yards and TD’s are soooooooo much better than Welker’s. Sorry if comparing their stats is regurgitating to you, but I’ve watched plenty of Pats games to know how important and good Welker is.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
That is the point
Welker is always open. If you only watch the occasional Pats game, it is natural to conclude, that the other team has blown the coverage or failed to gameplan for him or someting like that. But it’s the same story every game, so his ability must have something to do with it.
I used to believe it was mostly because Moss drew coverage as the deep threat, but the Cassell experience showed otherwise. He couldn’t consistently find Moss deep – but Welker still got open all the time.
It's hard to compare...
NE to Buffalo with respect to their receivers. Brady/Belichick do such a great job dishing the ball around, that a guy like Welker doesn’t have to be a traditional #2 outside receiver—although he does have a preternatural ability to get open (ala Steve Largent). Consider the passing yards by NE and how they were distributed to the top receivers:
- 2004 (14-2): 3,692 yards; Top WR’s Givens & Patten (none over 900 yds)
- 2005 (10-6): 4,110 yards; Top WR’s Branch & Givens (none over 1000 yds)
- 2006 (12-4): 3,529 yards; Top WR’s Caldwell & Brown (none over 800yds); TE’s combined for nearly 900 yds
- 2007 (16-0): 4,806 yards; Top WR’s Moss & Welker (both over 1,000 yds)
- 2008 (11-5): 3,693 (Cassel) yards; Top WR’s Moss & Welker (both over 1,000 yds)
2008 was the only year where more than 50% of the passes went to the top 2 receivers (the year Brady was out). I just don’t think that you can apply the #1, #2 receiver label to NE—particularly with Brady in the lineup. Obviously, they are also much better at involving their TE in the receiving game. A guy like Welker might very well have a difficult time as a #2 receiver in Buffalo, though I’d take him over Josh Reed in a heartbeat (and I like Reed).
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
NE plays ball differently than anyone else in the league – much in the same way the Bills did while employing the K-Gun. I’d argue that at any point, any guy crossing the line of play legally is considered a #1 target for them. I hate the Pats, but they play the game in ways you can only admire.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on Jul 24, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Moss > T.O, Evans > Welker
T.O has gotten worse with age and thats with good QBs, Edwards is still an unknown, however Owens is a physical specimen and is still a top 5 WR. His production hinges on Edwards abilities at QB.
Moss has one of the best QBs in the league throwing to him, he has the perfect blend of size, speed and hands. Not many CBs can match up with him due to his size.
Lee Evans is Lee Evans, he is what Chris Chambers should have been. He is simply a a very good underrated WR, his stats will see a nice jump assuming all goes to plan for you guys.
Wes Welker may be limited by his size but he is a great complement to Moss, he is versatile as hell, however he would not be a #1 WR on any other team, he is the product of those around him.
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Moss>TO,Evans>>Welker
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
by ForeignArrow on Jul 24, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
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