Bills @ Packers - 8/22: D-Line breakdown
by WhyBillsWhy on Aug 26, 2009 12:13 PM EDT
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Print[Note by Kurupt, 08/25/09 9:54 PM EDT] This deserves some front page love. WhyBillsWhy did a great job channeling his inner-Ron From NM for the defensive line.
OK, here goes. I was impressed by Ron From NM's O-Line posts from the first time I saw them. Sometime last week, about when kaisertown wrote his FanPost, it occurred to me that we complain about the Buffalo Bills' D-Line a lot, and perhaps it would be educational to break down those plays in addition to the O-Line. And then I started to do it. Ron, my hat is off to you because this sucks. This is just the starting D, because I couldn't take it anymore. Here we go...
Drive 1 -
Run 1:
- Grant started right, but ran the designed cut back for 5. Kelsay got good push, but didn't see the RB in time. Stroud and Williams were both double-teamed and pushed away from lane. Schobel made a bad move on the TE and took himself out of the play. Tackled by Scott because the LBs all bit to the wrong side.
Pass 1: 3 seconds to pass - 7 step drop
- Dump off to Grant for 8, who was completely uncovered. Kelsay got nowhere with the bull rush and was too slow with the spin move even though he got close. Stroud got closest to Rodgers with a consistent bull rush and got a hand up, but the QB was too far back. Williams initially doubled but the LG peeled off to clip Schobel, who almost made it to Rodgers after making the LT over-extend.
Run 2:
- Grant for 1 yard. 90 took to the outside with a TE, which was not bad because it let Stroud take advantage the 1-on-1 and stop Grant. 95 pushed past LG and wrapped up the leg tackle, before everyone piled on. Schobel and TE locked on, but Schobel was moving toward the ball the entire time.
Pass 2: 3 seconds to pass - Shotgun, 4 step drop
- Pass to the TE for 13, called back by penalty (maybe unwarranted). Kelsay had very little push on the RT despite having a head of steam. Stroud switched to C and he got a hand in Rodgers' face despite having a hand in his. Williams doubled by LG and RG after trying to come in behind Stroud. Schobel got adequate push, but didn't get far enough in to make a difference.
Pass 3: 2 seconds to pass - Shotgun, 4 step drop
- Quick curl to the TE for 7. Kelsay stoned by the RT again. Stroud started toward the C, but got unlucky in his direction choice. Mitchell and Poz blitzed, but were picked up easily. 95 tried to speed around (?!) the LG. Schobel stoned by the LT.
Run 3: Shotgun
- Draw for 11. Kelsay started the speed rush, but came back when he realized it was a run - almost had the shoestring tackle, but dove too soon. Stroud takes the bait, then gets pushed past the play to make a huge lane for the RB. Williams doubled and pushed back to make the lane even bigger. Schobel tried to rush around the end and was never in the play. Mitchell made a GIANT mistake and got swallowed by a blocker when he guessed wrong. Poz and Scott made the tackle barely before the marker.
Run 4:
- Run to the left blown up by Ellison (?!). Kelsay was nowhere near the play (by design). Stroud and Williams fill their gaps nicely, moving toward the play. Schobel gets good bump on tackle. Mitchell takes on the lead blocker well, all so that Keith Ellison (?!) can demolish Grant. This is what it looks like when it happens the right way.
Drive ended by: Keith Ellison (?!) and a stupid penalty by the GB Center
Drive stats: 1 blitz(es), 0 Stacked Box(es)
Drive 2 -
Pass 4: <1 second to pass - 1(ish) step drop
- Three back set. Four LBs on the field. Schobel, anticipating run, and the only one who could have gotten a hand on the ball, starts left and gets cut by the nearest back. Everyone else fought to a push. McKelvin, slightly outside was playing 4 yards off the ball and started to backpedal. Oops.
Drive ended by: Touchdown courtesy of bad LB and CB placement combined with the Packers needing to go 5 yards for the score.
Drive stats: 0 blitz(es), 1 Stacked Box(es)
Drive 3 -
Pass 5: 3 seconds to pass - 7 step drop
- GB has out 1 WR, 2 TEs, and 2 backs. Kelsay starts outside and gets manhandled, eventually pushed into the DT pile. 99 (doubled) and 95 both make headway into the pocket but get pushed to the right side. Schobel gets doubled twice (FB chip, then RB help) and gets the closest to the QB out of all of them. Scott was rushing but gets taken on by the RB and makes a circle around 94 after the RB tries to help with him. Pass to TE for 18 yards.
Run 5:
- Kelsay gets good penetration on the RT, causing the back to re-evaluate. Stroud gets doubled and doesn't give up any ground. Williams gets pushed, then doubled and pushed some more. Schobel gets destroyed by the TE. Scott, playing at the line, makes the tackle untouched by a GB player. Poz got lost in the wash and there was nobody except Scott on backside contain. Gain of 4.
Pass 6: 3 seconds to pass - 5 step drop
- Denney makes some progress, but not enough. Same for Stroud, though he got doubled. Williams got nowhere at all. Schobel was easily pushed beyond the edge of the pocket. Poz blitzed and got the closest of anyone, but was directed away from Rodgers by the FB. 21 yarder to the TE who easily beat Scott.
Run 6:
- Kelsay gets some push to cut off the outside lane but leaves some inside lane open. Stroud gets some pretty good push despite help from RG, then FB, but doesn't close enough gap. Williams gets pushed back some because he gets doubled. Schobel cutting off backside, nowhere near the play. Mitchell takes a lead blocker then follows up when Whitner closes a lot of ground to make the shoestring tackle which everybody piles onto. 2 yards.
Pass 7: 1 second to pass - Shotgun
- Denney starts to follow the pulling tackle, but leaps back trying to get a hand on the quick in. 99 cut. 95 lost in the wash and 94 was dinged by the TE, but it didn't matter because he was offsides to begin with.
Pass 8: 2 seconds to pass - 3 step drop
- 92 got nothing on the RT - pushed outside the pocket easily. Stroud gets doubled but Williams mauls his man, forcing the C to come back and assist. 99 comes behind him, but after 94 who is getting pushed into the pile. At this point Rodgers has stepped back and throws off his back foot. Ellison deflects the pass, but kinda grabs some shirt on the way. Not a lot worse than the non-call that happened to Evans earlier, but c'est la vie.
Pass 9: 1 second to pass - 5 step drop
- Denney again gets no push on the RT. Stroud and Williams get some push, but not as much as Mitchell, who timed his blitz perfectly but couldn't get a hand on the ball. Schobel chips the TE and looks to make a move on the LT, but it's too late. McGee doesn't even look up, and so can't defend the weakly thrown pass. 20 yards.
Run 7:
- 92 gets locked onto by the TE and can't get away fast enough. Stroud gets off balance and is pushed down to the ground. Williams tries to jump over the Stroud mess, but it's not physically possible. Schobel gets rocked and stumbles back into a fallen GB player (tabletop style). Not a good series for McGee, as he fails to stay to the outside, impeding Mitchell who gets engaged by the FB and Grant scores easily on the toss.
Drive ended by: Touchdown courtesy of McGee and the untimely Schobel/Ellison penalties.
Drive stats: 2 blitz(es), 5 Stacked Box(es)
Drive 4 -
Run 8:
- Denney gets good push into the backfield on the TE, but Stroud gets lightly held by the G, opening a decent size gap. 94 and 95 move toward the play well, but are engaged the whole time. Ellison gets basically dwarf-tossed by the RT and Poz makes the tackle. Gain of 5.
Run 9:
Schobel contains the right side and Mitchell fills the right B gap well. Williams gets doubled and Stroud guesses really wrong, vacating the middle. Denney gets easily handled by the TE. No protection against the cutback AGAIN. Scott does an awful job trying to tackle the RB and almost takes out McGee instead. Tackle eventually made by Whitner, Ellison, and McGee (nice effort to leap Scott) 13 yards later.
Run 10:
- All Schobel, as he bends the corner and makes the tackle despite a hand in the face. DL and LBs maintain the wall well. Loss of a yard. This is just great individual effort.
Pass 10: 2 seconds to pass - 5 step drop
- Screen to RB for 12 yards. 94 gets around the corner and almost to Rodgers, but the ball is already away. Williams gets held, falls, gets back up, then gets rocked by the RG as he's chasing Grant down. Stroud can't get by Williams' fallen body and Denney is on the wrong side. They start to chase and Denney actually makes the tackle with Poz. Mitchell went into backpedal too quickly and got himself blocked by a leading C. Everyone else had dropped into coverage.
Run 11:
- Schobel makes it around the TE easily, but is on the opposite side of the run. Stroud is doubled, then Poz runs into the back of him while guessing on the wrong gap. Williams is initially doubled, then held again by the RT before he trips over the pile created by Stroud falling. Mitchell takes on the FB, pushing him into Denney, who can't disengage and get around them fast enough to make the diving tackle. Tackle made by Ellison after shedding a lineman, but the offsides penalty (again?!) makes it worse.
Pass 11: 1 step drop - 1 second to pass
- 8 rushers. Schobel gets around the edge, but not enough time to get to the QB, plus an RB to contend with. Williams is doubled and he and Stroud deadlock with their men. 3 blitzers are b/w Stroud and Denney. 1-2 are taken on, but the pass is too quick. Denney leaps at the pass. No contact, but Corner breaks it up anyway.
Pass 12: 3(ish) step drop - 6 seconds to pass
- Schobel gets chipped by the TE, tosses the T aside and is almost there but gets tripped up by a falling 95, who is doubled and trips on a blitzing Poz. Stroud lays the wood to the C and goes outside when the G and C get confused. However, 99 takes a bad angle when Rodgers runs and can't get to him. Denney has great push on the RT, and is one of the reasons Rodgers has to run, but gets sandwiched by the G when he realizes he should block someone. Mitchell is in the right ballpark, but the pass is outside, away from him. McGee can't maintain coverage for this long and McKelvin slips then picks the wrong open area of the field to run to when he gets up and then TD.
Drive ended by: GB touchdown from bad run D and lack of containment.
Drive stats: 4 blitz(es), 2 Stacked Box(es)
Drive 5 -
Pass 13: 2 seconds to pass - 3 step drop
- Schobel pushes the LT back and gets facemasked (no call) that directs him into the Williams mess. Stroud fights to a standstill on the G. Kelsay gets a nice push and slightly held when he switches direction on the T. An untouched Scott makes the nice pass block on the blitz, though.
Pass 14: 2 seconds to pass - 3 step drop
- Schobel gets in a little but the pass is too quick to allow for pressure. Williams gets doubled and draws even. Stroud gets the most pressure, getting a hand up near the ball. Kelsay goes way around the outside. Quick stop route for 7 yards. Bad McGee tackle attempt.
Pass 15: 3 seconds to run for dear life - Shotgun
- Schobel is making good progress but gets held (uncalled). 95 attempts a spin move that goes directly into the C, then misses on the diving tackle when Brohm runs. Stroud gets pushed into the Williams situation when trying to work the inside, leaving a huge gap as Kelsay gets easily directed around the pocket and into Schobel. Mitchell follows the motioning back, but tackles the QB after 5 yards.
Run 12:
- Kelsay doesn't get touched, misses trying to strip the ball, and makes the shoestring tackle on the cutback for 3 yards. Schobel goes way outside and doesn't factor in. Williams handles the double team nicely while Stroud holds the line well after the initial double. Again, the LBs and Scott follow the pile rather than the ball.
Run 13:
- Schobel is away from the play, but gets engaged with the TE. Williams gets great penetration as the LT can't move fast enough, but misses on the shoestring tackle, taking EVERYONE out (including Stroud who had been at a draw, but moving toward the ball) in the process. Fortunately, Kelsay got held by the T, because the LBs got mauled by the GB linemen and Scott made a poor dive at the RB after holding off the TE well. There was a whole lot of offensive holding on this play.
Pass 16: 3 seconds to pass - 3 step drop
- Schobel gets close and nearly pushes the T into Brohm. Williams gets held (uncalled) and tripped up by the G. Stroud is doubled but makes good progress into the pocket. Kelsay again tries to get around the edge but does nothing. Poor dump-off to RB for 2 yards, tackle by Poz on the prone RB.
Run 14: Shotgun
- GB telegraphs the draw by motioning the TE into the backfield. 95 takes the double and pushes. Schobel starts forward,, then tries to move inside, but can't get around Stroud fast enough - follows the play until he gets delayed by Poz getting faked out of his cleats. Stroud gets great push on his man, but can't disengage fast enough to get a hand on the runner. Kelsay is apparently the only one who didn't see the inside run coming and takes himself out of the play. Tackle made after 8 by Mitchell and Whitner.
Drive ended by: Punt - major holding penalty.
Drive stats: 1 blitz(es), 4 Stacked Box(es)
Just another great fan opinion shared on the pages of BuffaloRumblings.com.
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This is great work. I rewatched the game and kept an eye on the DL, but didn’t take notes and didn’t feel like taking the time to do a write-up. So I couldn’t be any happier that you did. And this is super detailed. I can’t stress enough how impressive and helpful this is. This is the best blog ever.
If I had to make a couple of generalizations about the pass rush it would be that it’s bad and any time that it looked like a good rush might develop, Rodgers got rid of the ball in a hurry. Buffalo had some decent blitzing efforts, but Rodgers always got rid of the ball. Four man rushes were pretty ineffective (and I’m a big fan of not over blitzing). Rodgers had all the answers to the pass rush. Against a Matt Cassel type QB, Buffalo might have had a decent (or at least not terrible) pass rush, but it didn’t phase Rodgers in the slightest.
I thought it was interesting that a FB came up through the middle and chipped a DT a couple of times.
Williams was doubled the first time that Buffalo rushed 4, but after Stroud broke through and drew the penalty on GB’s 2nd pass attempt, the center gave him the vast majority of his attention.
Yeah. What really struck me is how ineffective the LBs were. They didn’t get through the blockers at all ever. You’re right about the FB thing. And they only doubled the DTs. Never the DEs. Not once.
On run plays, blitzes or both? It feels like Poz does a solid job at working through blocks to get to ball carriers. And Mitchell isn’t super tough to block, but on run plays he’s a big body who is really tough to move. At least that’s the impression that I get.
On blitzes, there’s a reason Poz didn’t have a sack last year and it isn’t because Buffalo didn’t blitz him. After paying close intention to him blitzing against GB, it seems like he just comes in with a full head of steam and a very straight line approach to get after the QB. And there’s nothing wrong with that, it just isn’t going to result in a sack if somebody picks him up because he ends up in a basic bull rush and the QB is going to get rid of the ball or move away before Poz gets to him. And that wouldn’t be bad either if we had a defensive lineman who could take advantage of the one on one matchups that blitzing creates and get a sack on a moving QB who Poz forced to move around in the pocket.
Mitchell is great at timing blitzes. He had that one blitz against GB where he came in flying and Rodgers had to get rid of it really quick. It was impressive. But Mitchell doesn’t beat RBs or TEs often once he’s even somewhat engaged. Any time an offensive lineman gets his hands on an LB, it’s a battle that the OL is going to win almost every time.
Agreed....Most excellent work WBW.....Thank you
"When troops flee, are insubordinate, collapse, or are routed in battle, it is the fault of the general." – Sun Tzu. Yes Jauron, I am talking to you.
I would like to rec this 3 times.
This pretty much shows how poor/mediocre our front 7 is. The rare times our DL actually does a good job, our LB’s seem to be out of position. Most of the time though, our DL gets engaged by blockers and can’t get free. No pass rush whatsoever and with this group, that’s not changing. Maybin has to be better than any of us can imagine for us to have even an average pass rush this year.
Did Rodgers even get hit once?
Once again, excellent work. I expect something similar each week :)
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Like you said in a previous post, I’m gonna hold off judgement until it’s the actual regular season, but it definitely didn’t look good. Particularly, Denney looked every bit as bad as Kelsay, which is depressing. Maybe an Ellis/Bryan tandem could have more success? I’m willing to try anything at this point?
The DTs seem to be holding their own quite well, but they’re the only ones that ever get double-teamed. They also need to be more aware of their positioning. I can’t count how many times I saw them dive and boll some people over when making a hard push in the right direction would have served everyone better.
The DEs, on the other hand, were completely outclassed. I know GB has a good line, but they really went nowhere. They all try to bend the edge WAY too often and don’t try to spin/swim/rip nearly often enough. Now maybe it’s just that they don’t want a ton of tape on them for the opener, but they’re just not speedy enough to make it happen that way. They open up giant holes that any competent RB can get through. A bunch of those later big runs/dumps were the second-stringer, Jackson I think. The Ends, at a minimum, need to contain and they need to do it fast.
Once again, excellent work. I expect something similar each week :)
I’ll see what I can do. No clue if I’ll be able to maintain some semblance of a life if I keep doing this. It took forever. I have so much respect for Ron now, it’s comical.
Like you said in a previous post, I’m gonna hold off judgement until it’s the actual regular season, but it definitely didn’t look good.
It’s the same mediocre group playing the same mediocre style D from last year, so I don’t think it’s an issue making judgements right now. It’s not like we’re expecting them to be that much different from last year or what we’ve seen. Maybin’s addition (and Ellis) is what can help the unit improve.
I wanted nearly a complete retooling of the DE’s this offseason because of exactly what we have seen….which is very little push and pressure. Going with the same group is not going to produce different results.
The DT’s are very solid, but they really aren’t penetrators or pass rushers. We’re really lacking that element of our interior DL.
I really didn’t expect you to keep it up for the regular season because this post looked like it took multiple hours, and was only a third of the game. I know I’d appreciate anything that you’d be able to put together during the regular season, as would many others.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Kurupt
just imagine if one of our DE’s would command a double team now and then what Stroud could do. I believe our DT’s are underrated. They just command all the attention from the guards and center, because no help is ever needed to handle our ends.
by Buffalonian on Aug 25, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not. Wouldn’t the DE get a double from the TE in addition to the OT? You aren’t going to see too many Guards helping on an outside rusher.
If our DE’s could force QB’s up in the pocket earlier, maybe Stroud/Williams could pick up a few more sacks….
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
I went and watched some tape on some of the better pass rushers present and past and you can definitely see the Guards giving help, or at least staying close as to be able to chuck the end on an inside move. It looked like the fear of giving a DE total isolation on obvious passing downs when the TE wasn’t there, lent to Guard help. Or at the very least command some attention from the backer. I will be interested to see where the blocking RB goes when I look at the GreenBay tape again. I have a feeling he stayed inside and helped with the DT’s.
by Buffalonian on Aug 25, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s impossible to block a DE with two offensive lineman via scheme. Think about a pass rushing situation, a DE is going to line up outside of the OT and more often than not, is going to rush around the OT and away from the rest of the OL. How is a guard supposed to help? Has anyone ever seen a guard turn around immediately after the snap, head backwards a few steps and try to cut a rushing DE off before he gets around the OT?
The RBs aren’t typically schemed to double team a specific player. They’re more of an emergency option. Their first job is always going to be to recognize and pick up the blitz. If there isn’t a blitzer to pick up, a blocking RB’s job will be to help whichever offensive lineman needs it the most. A team can put an RB on a specific side to give him a better opportunity to block a great DE.
And in my comment I noted that I found it interesting that a FB chipped a DT while starting a route a couple of times and I did that because backs chip DEs far more often. That could be due to DEs being a bigger threat, being tougher to account for schematically, or because leaking out into the flat is more common than sneaking through the line and into the middle of the field. A RB chipping a DT isn’t something you would really notice unless you were really paying attention though, so maybe it happens more than I realize.
Well, with Guards helping OTs on DE's it depends on the situation
If your playing someone like Dwight Freeney who is KNOWN for being a spin move guy who likes to go back inside or try to go farther outside the should of the OT, you put your Olineman on a sliding protection scheme, and have your C take the DT to the LG’s side and use him to stonewall Freeney when he spins back, or if he goes outside on the spin, you have him sprint in behind the OT to block Freeney out there giving the QB a few extra seconds. Unless your keeping your TE in on this situation, then your OT and TE double him up.
You can see a clear example of this at the 54 second mark in this video clip from the Colts-Eagles tilt this past weekend.
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
I didn’t say the guard helps as the DE is trying to get around the Tackle. I said they help on the inside move, which they most certainly do by scheme.
In regards to the RB, you are making my point. I don’t think the RB helps with our DE’s because it never appears necessary because that’s not where the help is needed. I just wanted to watch the game again out of interest to verify what Green Bay’s RB’s were doing.
Actually in the above video clip I put in my prior post
You do see the Eagles guard trying to go to the backside of their LT in an attempt to help keep Freeney away from the outside at about the 1:10 mark. You’ll see a chip by the TE, the LT taking over, then the LG rushing to get to the backside of the LT just in case, its kinda crazy, but thats what you do when you have a rookie against Freeney…
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
Hah, reading the notes WBW did, you can see how often they just sicked a freaking TE on our DE's
And then our DE’s got no traction against them, I know that TEs are more athletically gifted than an OT, but unless they are a Kleisinger (butchered that name huh) style extra OT in a TE body, they SHOULD win that fight 90% of the time. Our DE’s are bad…….
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
Jim Kleinsasser? The Vikings TE/FB/Immovable Object?
by WhyBillsWhy on Aug 26, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
There we go, at least someone was smart enough to look up the spelling
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
I was watching our DE’s almost exclusively. For the life of me I can’t figure out why a 243lb DE (Schobel), would even attempt a bull rush against a 320lb tackle. There wasn’t even an attempt to get to the outside, he made no move to get the left shoulder to the outside shoulder of the tackle. Shouldn’t Schobel at least have 2 moves that have been developed over a long NFL career to be his mainstays? I can’t think of a signature move he has.
Then I looked over at Kelsay and its like he’s mirroring Schobel. So you could see the tackles were backing up a foot or two, letting our ends come into us, and setting up for the screen. Schobel is already into the body of the tackle and can’t break free, and because he didn’t choose a side, both the inside and outside screen is available.
As soon as Ellis came in he immediately tried the outside shoulder. Then Bryan came in and was rushing with purpose. I don’t know Kelsay, Schobel, and Denney are playing not to get hurt in preseason or not. But I’ll tell ya, I would have no issue at all running with Bryan, Ellis, and Maybin as starters. I agree with Kurupt I would have preferred an overhaul of our ends during the off season, but I’m just as fine with doing it now.
Shouldn’t Schobel at least have 2 moves that have been developed over a long NFL career to be his mainstays? I can’t think of a signature move he has.
Great point. I’m trying to recall a spin or swim or other move he’s made, but all his sacks seem to be due to effort or beating a far inferior tackle….Can anybody think of any moves Schobel’s ever shown???
The more I think about it, the more I think Schobel will struggle to reach 5 sacks this year. If he can get a lot of effort and coverage sacks, then that’ll be nice, but it’s going to be tough, IMO.
We aren’t getting an overhaul at this point, that’s for sure. We also have no idea if the three young guys can help against the run….at all.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
you see
I want to love this team. I want to think this is the year…..but at the end of the day I judge three things. DL, OL, QB. None of which are above average on our team. Trent better become the next Peyton Manning to mask the inferiorities of this team or else I just cannot fathom how this team wins more games
MARVelous - "I went from America's team to North America's Team" Terrell Owens
I understand
your frustration, but I think you will see a different Edwards with T.O. on the field. As crazy as this seems, I am not real worried about our offense. I think it will start out sloppy, but it will catch its stride sooner than later, IMO mostly because of T.O. I am so frustrated Edwards is not going to get some much needed time with him in Saturday’s game.
The defense is where I will loose my sleep.
by Buffalonian on Aug 25, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think it’s crazy to think that Edwards will be a different QB with TO. Personally, I’m on the fence about it, but there’s a very logical argument to why Trent will take more shots down the field with TO and just play with more confidence in general.
I can’t think of a signature move he has.
Schobel definitely has a signature move. He “speed” rushes around the OT and ends up behind the QB, gets into the offensive lineman a little bit, manages to disengage and heads back upfield towards the QB. And while he’s doing that he prays that the coverage has held up for the 5+ seconds it takes to do all that so he can get all the glory with a coverage sack.
zing
I’ve got nothing to add. that was just funny.
by dragonwag0n on Aug 26, 2009 2:25 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What Denney, Kelsay and Schobel both try to do a lot, it seems, is go long on the outside and cut back in so that the T overextends, then get a free shot at the QB. Unfortunately, during this game at least, they weren’t fast enough or the tackles had good enough technique that they didn’t get much shot.
The worst part is that several times, the technique would’ve worked, but the CBs were playing so far off the WR that they were vulnerable to the quick slant when the QB felt the pressure. It seems like if you have good CBs, you should make them work their men and give the DEs time. Vice versa would be true if you’re the Giants.
Welcome to the club, WBW!!!
I actually did the defensive line analysis for a little while back when I was putting everyone to sleep on realfootball365. It was interesting but I kept writing the same thing over and over—no push, no pressure. I like the way you went after it here much better. Kudos!
Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner
How long does it usually take you to get the O-Line review done for a particular week? It was seriously averaging out to about 45-50 minutes per drive, and that was with one drive where there was one play.
Also, is there any place you go to get games? I don’t have DirectTV/Sunday Ticket and I live in Pats country, so I won’t get many of the games on regular TV. I’m not sure if NFL Network will do the regular season replays during the week or not. I’m sure you feel my pain because NM doesn’t exactly seem like Bills country, so what do you use?
It generally takes me several hours to break down a game. I’d like to spend more time on it but little things like work and such tend to intervene. It takes another chunk of time to do the write up. For the offensive line I find it takes considerably longer to break down run plays than pass plays. I have the Sunday Ticket so, barring balloon caused power outages at the Ralph, I get every game.
Living in Pats country as a Bills fan must really suck, by the way.
Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner
I was actually at that SD game, so I didn’t miss a beat! Everyone else outside of the Ralph was not so lucky. :-(
Sunday Ticket is probably the smart way, but I just don’t watch enough other games to make it worthwhile. If there was something where you could just follow your favorite team, I’d give up cable, honestly.
And yes, Pats fans are bandwagoners to the last. Most don’t even know anyone that played before the Bledsoe years. I try to have a neutral football conversation but they usually either start trashing the Bills or start talking about baseball. It’s disheartening.
Rec'd
This great stuff my friend. I can only speculate the time & effort it takes for Ron & yourself to put something like this together. Although I would think previously impossible, you have just kicked Buffalo Rumblings up another notch.
Please continue these write ups if possible….perhaps Ron can provide some tips to maintain your sanity during the ’09 season? ; )
Aaron Maybe?
About this system
I know I may be talking non-sense, but wouldn’t we better off if our DL can play with a little more discipline, play with their gap assignemet and let the LBs choose where to attack the ball. I saw that the GB OL directed our OL easily and the RB had room to make a couple of moves and be in the second level rather easily. When this happens our LBs overpursue and they get caught in the wash (IDK if that is the right term)
I saw on WhyBillsWhy write up (btw great work) that our DTs gamble too much and the end result is always negative. Sometimes Stroud and Williams get too cute and try to beat their man with wide speed rush and that move is easily contained but any OL.
As much as I like Kyle Williams, we need to see if McCargo or Johnson can do a little better playing with Stroud (who I think isn’t giving 100% effort in preseason games).The same goes to the LDE spot. Put Ellis or Bryan there and see what they got.
this is the same guy who wants to keep Kelsay,Denney....
See this is exactly why we need to switch to bryan or ellis n’ maybin i think they will provide a better line than the 3 stoooooooooooooges in Kelsay, denney, n schobel (larry, curly, mo)….i don’t care cuz this will definitely make or break jauron if he can’t see that these guys are consistently horrible he will never see it…and more than likely will be fired….n to be honest that D-Line has been a huge problem the last few years n’ thats y the secondary doesn’t make any plays….
Honestly, what I’d really like to see is Schobel in the LDE spot and some combination of people at RDE. I think Schobel has indeed lost a step, but he’s capable of some fantastic individual effort (see Drive 4, Run 10). If he were to put on a little mass, he might be able to exploit some better matchups on that side. Maybe it’s just wishful thinking, but he should be able to speed rush better on that side with the less athletic tackle. As long as he maintains some discipline on clear running plays, we might see some marked improvement.
by WhyBillsWhy on Aug 26, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
no i don’t think so, its time for a change my friend n’ we need to move on w/ that d-line…Schobel has clearly lost a step n’ even when he was healthy he wasn’t dominant….i mean when you think of the top pass rush specialist in the league does schobel come to mind? " I DON’T THINK SO"…..all of these guys are below average… n i just feel that ellis, bryan, n maybin can do much better and can really reac havoc on opposing offenses….just my thoughts….
Just keep in mind that that’s a lot of ifs. If Maybin steps up (it takes a lot of players 3 years). If Bryan steps up (he’s had flashes, but lacked consistency). If Ellis steps up (his work ethic has been lacking, reportedly). And most importantly, IF we bring in another 2 DEs that are a cut above Kelsay/Denney/Schobel (drafted players will take a while and who knows what will be available in FA).
by WhyBillsWhy on Aug 26, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
listen...
hey, i’m willing to do that, bcuz i believe those guys can get the job done. but jauron is scared to do so for whatever reason….Trust me when i say Kelsay,denney would not start for any other team, they’re average at best and i think they are lacking in the overall talent level department.. now if you want them to be backup’s i have no problem w/ that but starters….No way they are not starting caliber…and schobel will not be here next year..so y not go w/ the youth movement n’ u can billieve that you will see instant production….So its no need to keep denney n’ kelsay when they have produced nothing, i mean absolutely nothing, until those guys are gone or backups the d-line will not succeed…Trust me
After re-reading Brian’s defensive review, I tend to agree with most things he had to say.
The GB O-line is good, make no mistake. Out of the ~30 plays I broke down, they made a serious mistake on maybe 2. One was individual, one was miscommunication. They handled blitzes well, stayed square with their men, and knew how to hold/facemask our D-Line without getting caught (the best way to do it). In this game (and the Bears game to a lesser extent), the QB was moving quickly, not wasting any time in the pocket. Except for the one Rodgers run, no passes took longer to get out than 3 seconds, which is quite efficient.
The LBs were a major issue in run support and in diagnosing misdirection plays. The DEs don’t help by constantly trying to speed around the edge, creating big lanes on either side of the interior line mess. I can’t say that’s necessarily say that’s the DEs fault, more something due to scheme and coaching.
Scott and McGee had a rough game. Period. They’re likely to rebound next time.
I would disagree that the DTs don’t do very well on pass rushing though. Stroud is constantly up in the air, trying to bat passes down and Williams is constantly doubled, more so than Stroud. They get pushed a little when they get doubled, but very few people don’t. When Williams, especially, isn’t doubled, he’s in the backfield. The DTs are just constantly over-matched because the DEs don’t pull anyone away from them.
In this game (and the Bears game to a lesser extent), the QB was moving quickly, not wasting any time in the pocket. Except for the one Rodgers run, no passes took longer to get out than 3 seconds, which is quite efficient.
This is exactly the type of thing that Brady and Co. do to the Bills every year. Haven’t figured out how to stop it yet.
BTW, thanks for all the time you put into this sort of analysis WBW (and Ron). It brings us more casual fans a little closer to the game.
Get the Bills back to the big game!
Thats the issue our DE's cause our Defense
Due to Fewell letting them huge outside runs at the QB, we leave holes for the other team to exploit, which means Ellison and Mitchell, while solid players, are not capable of standing up a charging OG to stop the run, they just aren’t that good. With poorer level LBers behind your DL you really need disciplined DE’s and hog DTs to keep them clean so they can get to the ball, you don’t do that, your LBers can get engulfed.
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
Line Play
Buffalo’s O-Line and D-Line is mediocre at best. Second tier players on another team.. They drafted a couple of players that may be promising down the road. They need a true, tough, physical center to anchor their O-Line. They cannot run block period. The D-Line and their linebackers are not fast enough or physical enough. To light in the loafers up front and they get out knocked off the ball. Other then that it is a typical Jauron run team. I do not care who you have at QB. The results will be the same.
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