Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Super Bowl Recipes: A Guide To The Perfect Game Day Menu

Comparing the Donahoe regime to the Jauron regime

It is said that hindsight is 20/20. When looking back at previous NFL Drafts, it's easy to cherry pick the great players a team could have had versus the players that were actually selected. It's fun, too. I started looking at the Buffalo Bills' historical draft classes, and was actually a little surprised to realize how little turnover there has been at One Bills Drive over the past two decades. Buffalo has had Bill Polian, the late John Butler, Tom Donahoe and, most recently, the "Inner Circle" making the draft day decisions. Instead of going all the way back to the 1986 Draft, I decided to look at the drafts of the two most recent eras.

We, as Bills fans, take certain things as articles of faith. Donahoe was a moron. He completely neglected the offensive line. The Inner Circle never met a DB they didn't like. OBD has a weird fascination with Ohio State. MRW is secretly a Dolphins fan. (Okay, I made that last one up.) Are these articles of faith true? Check after the jump...

Star-divide

I've taken a look at the drafts from 2001 through 2008. Yes, I realize that it's tough to say much definitively about the most recent drafts. However, I think we can actually begin to compare the Inner Circle and Donahoe eras. I've divided the draftees into four groups:

First Tier: These are the guys who have stood out over a period of time. They may not be the best in the business, but they're generally well-respected players, many of whom have been to a Pro Bowl or two.

Second Tier: These are the guys who have been solid, if unspectacular, players. They tend to make up the bulk of most NFL rosters. They can play, but aren't likely to have widespread league recognition.

Third Tier: These are the limited role players, generally limited to special teams. They might fill reserve roles, but tend to come and go.

Fourth Tier: Everyone else. Many of these guys don't even make the roster, and some of them are out of the NFL within a year or two. Sometimes it's due to injury; other times, due lack of opportunity. Most often, however, they just can't cut it in the NFL.

The Donahoe Drafts
2001: Donahoe started things off with a bang in his first draft. The first tier guys from the draft were DB Nate Clements, DE Aaron Schobel, and RB Travis Henry. OT Jonas Jennings was a second tier guy. No one else really even registers. For those who wonder, Travis Henry did make good on his second round selection. He was a productive back on some bad teams and did bring some trade value.

2002: This was the infamous year of the Mike Williams pick. However, three second tier guys (WR Josh Reed, DE Ryan Denney, and DB Coy Wire) highlighted the draft. Coy Wire makes it into the second tier largely because of his versatility and his contributions on special teams.

2003: This was Donahoe's best draft in terms of pure numbers. First tier players include RB Willis McGahee and DB Terrence McGee. Second tier guys include DE Chris Kelsay (sorry Kurupt) and LB Angelo Crowell. Third tier picks were WR Sam Aiken and LB Mario Haggan.

2004: The draft was notable for exactly one first tier player, WR Lee Evans. Everyone else was a bust.

2005: Like 2004, this draft was notable for exactly one first tier player, Roscoe Parrish. He's a first tier guy because of the fact that he's been one of the best return men in league history. No, he hasn't been a great WR, but he was the highlight of Donahoe's last draft.

Inner Circle Drafts
2006: The Inner Circle started out with two first tier players, DT Kyle Williams and OG Brad Butler, as well as two second tier players, DB Donte Whitner and LB Keith Ellison. John McCargo, to this point, has been a bust; Ashton Youboty hasn't been healthy enough to do anything; Ko Simpson was demoted; and Terrance Pennington was cut before his second season started.

2007: This has been the best draft of the Inner Circle to date. Two first tier guys were picked - RB Marshawn Lynch and LB Paul Posluszny - as well as two second tier guys, QB Trent Edwards and TE Derek Schouman. One third tier player was selected in DB John Wendling. To clarify, Edwards might turn out to be a first tier guy - this season should answer the question one way or the other.

2008: Yes, it's really early to judge the class. (For obvious reasons, we won't break down the current draft class.) However, I think we can safely describe DB Leodis McKelvin as a first tier guy (due to his awesome return game) and TE Derek Fine as a second tier guy. James Hardy, Demetrius Bell, Chris Ellis, Reggie Corner, Alvin Bowen and Steve Johnson are largely unknown quantities at this point.

***

To sum up, that's seven first tier guys, six second tier guys, and two third tier guys for Donahoe. The Inner Circle compares favorably to those results, already turning in five first tier guys, five second tier guys, and one third tier guy.

You can take it as in indictment of Donahoe or as credit to the Inner Circle for good drafting. It's not a coincidence that the Bills seem to be headed in the right direction. To come away from drafts with just one player, as happened in both 2004 and 2005, really sets a team back. (It's pretty clear that I see it as an indictment of Donahoe...)

Moving on, let's take a look at the articles of faith. Did Donahoe ignore the offensive line? Does Jauron have a DB fetish?

Donahoe drafted 2 OL in 2001, 2 in 2002 (Mike Williams with the No. 4 overall pick), 1 in 2003, 1 in 2004, and 2 in 2005 for a total of 8 offensive linemen in 5 years (out of 42 picks).  It seems out of line to suggest that Donahoe ignored the line given that about 20% of the picks were devoted to it. The problem was that Jennings was the closest he came to a hit. The case can be made that Donahoe didn't invest heavily enough in the line during the first day of the draft, as only Jennings and Mike Williams were picked within the first three rounds. It's a little surprising when just the sheer numbers are considered, even if Tom Donahoe clearly wasn't a good judge of offensive line talent.

What about Jauron and his alleged DB fetish? The Inner Circle has made 34 total draft picks. Of those, 11 have been defensive backs. That's one third of the players taken over the past four drafts - so, yeah, the Inner Circle has focused heavily on defensive backs. By way of comparison, Buffalo has taken just two defensive tackles. Just to sicken Kurupt, the Inner Circle has effectively selected just one defensive end - Aaron Maybin, with C.J. Ah You being a seventh-round favor to the family of a friend of Marv Levy's.

While it is inaccurate to suggest that Donahoe ignored the offensive line, it is indeed accurate to suggest that the Inner Circle has ignored the defensive line on draft day. Granted, the Inner Circle brought in Marcus Stroud via trade as well as acquired Spencer Johnson in free agency. Building through the draft, however, would seem to be the better long term course.

Comment 54 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

the Inner Circle has effectively selected just one defensive end

What about Chris Ellis doesn’t he count?

Did I mention the tank is a tank?

by ArenZimm on Aug 6, 2009 12:26 AM EDT reply actions  

he hasn’t done anything yet, so right now i’d agree that he doesn’t really yet. if he has a solid year – as in, actually plays and does something with his playing time – then you can say he’s gone somewhere, but he’s effectively a rookie at this point.

by the_prophet on Aug 6, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, basically

The inner circle has three tackles from their DE choices. One per year.

by silvermike on Aug 6, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

D'oh!

He counts at least as much as Ah You. I’m evidently the one who can’t count.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yuck, 11 DB’s in three years is just stupid. It’s especially stupid when you haven’t had a good pass rush in years, have constant turnover on the OL, and start guys like Ellison at LB. This is part of the reason why this Inner Circle of …. has given us nothing but 7-9 seasons.

Everyone talks so much garbage about Donohoe, but I really don’t think he was any worse than what Levy and friends gave us. The results are the same at this point. Hopefully, the latest two crops of players changes that, but I really don’t think there is a discernible difference yet.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Aug 6, 2009 2:09 AM EDT reply actions  

This is part of the reason why this Inner Circle of …. has given us nothing but 7-9 seasons.

The three seasons of 7-9 is still better than Donahoe’s 1 god season and 4 horrible ones. Yes we might be hovering on medicroty, but at least we’re not god awful.

Captain of the "Promote Bob Sanders to Deffensive Coordinator" band wagon.

by CanadianBillsFan on Aug 6, 2009 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

The results are the same. Just because the team average less than a win more per season now doesn’t make it any better…

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Aug 6, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Personally to me there feels like a little bit of a difference

With Dick Jauron’s regime I can’t help but feel like we are on the verge of a very powerful breakout into the playoff ranks. some year soon, maybe this year, maybe not. It is a hopeful feeling backed in some truth. With Donahoe I never really had that hope. Even during the last Bledsoe year when we won six straight before losing to the Steelers and being eliminated, I really felt no hope for the following years.

I can’t back this up with stats or anything tangible, but I really do feel much more positive about this regime’s work.

by Dyl on Aug 6, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

11 DB's

is ridiculous but Kenard Cox shouldn’t really count. This regime has done well at developing OL (Peters, Butler, Demetrius Bell and hopefully Wood and Levitre) and stabilizing the secondary. However, the development of the DL and QB play has never gotten us to where we all want to go. Whether it’s pure talent, or a combo with coaching, the Bills struggle where the money is, and that’s DL/OL and QB play.

Dick Jauron’s secondary fetish is well known, and if they think Aaron Maybin is going to single-handedly turn this DL around, they are completely kidding themselves. The fact that Chris Kelsay is still on this team, and they blame their pathetic sack total on Aaron Schobel being hurt is completely ridiculous…

MARVelous - "I went from America's team to North America's Team" Terrell Owens

by MARVelous on Aug 6, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why shouldn’t Cox count? He was a draft day selection.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kennard Cox was the second-last player drafted; but still, he was drafted.
Personally, I was thinking that Nic Harris doesn’t count, since he’s already been switched to LB.

I wonder if the reason the Bills have been drafting a lot of DBs has something to do with the massive contracts that Clements and Winfield signed when they left the team. Since the Bills wouldn’t sign them for that kind of money, there’s no way they could get very good free agents at CB. As a result, they have to rely on the draft to come up with elite defensive backs.

One more point – in the 7 drafts Polian was the GM (86-92), the Bills drafted 48 players in the first 7 rounds. Twelve of them were DBs; as many as the OL (6) and DL (6) combined in those 7 rounds.

by Krenn on Aug 6, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

My theory is that former DB Dick Jauron just can’t stay away from DBs in the draft. I can see keeping the DB cupboard stocked but there are other crying needs.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

but there are other crying needs.

d-linemen perhaps? possibly some sort of linebacker?

I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying

by J2 on Aug 6, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am so sick of that argument, Ron.

He is not the only person in the damn room. He is not the person imposing his will on the staff. TH\hey make their draft board and stick with it.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Aug 8, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

In my opinion...

blaming their lack of a pass rush on Schobel’s injury last season is an indirect way of saying that Kelsay and Denney didn’t get it done.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Aug 6, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

IMO it was a failed PR attempt to try and cover their butts for another poor season out of the pass rush. Schobel was fine in 2007 and the pass rush was just as awful then. Just OBD trying to drum up support for a still very weak area.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Aug 6, 2009 1:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Keep in mind that we’re looking at pretty similar results but that Donahoe had 5 drafts and the Inner Circle has had, effectively, 3 drafts. The 4th Inner Circle draft is right now a complete unknown, though I have high hopes for Wood and Nelson particularly.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

See the thing is that the Inner circle did just as good in 3 drafts as Donahoe did in 5. Plus I can’t help but feel like this year’s draft is the best Bills draft since the year we drafted Thurman Thomas. I mean there is a legitimate shot at have 5 rookies starting this year, Maybin, Wood, Levitre, Byrd and Nelson, with Nic Harris having a good shot at getting almost as many reps as Ellisson by year’s end. That would mean that this years draft would bring out 6 rookies with significant playing time. If that isn’t a FANTASTIC draft, then I don’t know what is.

To put it simply, his year’s draft alone has the possibility of outdoing the entire Donahoe era.

Captain of the "Promote Bob Sanders to Deffensive Coordinator" band wagon.

by CanadianBillsFan on Aug 7, 2009 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

For me, Donahoe’s biggest problem was signing off on those uniforms, followed closely by reaching for Losman.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Aug 6, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point on the unis. Completely changed the team identity for the worse

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Aug 6, 2009 1:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yes, but you’ve got to remember that’s when every time a team changed uniforms they went to the Super Bowl. Maybe Donahoe thought that was the key to success. You know, unlike those interchangable offensive linemen.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think your conclusions disproves one thing and proves 2 things.

It disproves the addage that Donahoe ignored the O-line. But it does prove that yes Donahoe was an idiot when drafting. It also proves that the “inner circle” does indeed love DB.

What does strike me is Donahoe’s total ineptitude at drafting. I mean the fact that Th Inner Circle has drafted almost as many quality players as the Donahoe era is shamefull. The Inner Circle deffinatly aren’t the brightest guys (looking at the fact that a third of their pics are DB) but to say that they did better in 3 years then Donahoe did in 5 would be an accurate statement. And if you add in this year’s draft, easily the most optomistic draft in 15 years, then the Inner Circle might actually be the best drafters that we’ve had is Levy. Too bad it took them having their backs to the wall for it to happen.

Captain of the "Promote Bob Sanders to Deffensive Coordinator" band wagon.

by CanadianBillsFan on Aug 6, 2009 3:12 AM EDT reply actions  

I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say the Bills did better in 3 years with the Inner Circle than Donahoe did in 5. However, unless the initial signs are completely off the mark (or injuries hit) the Inner Circle will have taken as many players worth mentioning in 4 years as Donahoe did in 5….and surpass Donahoe in the 5th draft by 2-5 players.

To my way of thinking the 2004 and 2005 drafts were the worst of the past 8 (9 counting this year’s) in that only one player came out of each. To come away from a draft with only one player (kind of like Mike Ditka, without the circus type atmposphere) is just pathetic.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think that’s going too far. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Edwards turned into a “first tier guy” and at least one of the remaining 6 2008 picks did as well (Bell and Johnson both have a good chance). If that were to happen the Inner Circle would have the same number of first tier drafts in 3 years as Donahoe did in 5. Especially since Parrish is a questionable first tier selection for Donahoe.

I think after this last draft there will be no question. It’s looking like we’re going to be getting at least a couple solid players in our Offensive linemen – first tier candidates. If all goes well we should get a couple more players in Maybin and Byrd. In all likelihood the Inner Circle will have passed Donahoe in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier guys after we consider the 2009 draft. That says a lot.

"We want to win immediately. To say you're building is an incomplete sentence. ... You're building for a future coach and general manager."
-Marv Levy

by TEMSON on Aug 6, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that the Inner Circle has done (or soon will have done) more to build the Bills through the draft than Donahoe did. I think the results have shown on the field. While the Bills haven’t been a good team we haven’t had to endure 4-12 seasons either. I see reason for opt….opt….opt…..not so much pessimism because the Inner Circle has improved the team through the draft. While the Bills may have had some bigger name players under Donahoe (besides the ones he chased out of town, that is) the team really didn’t have any depth at all.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see reason for opt….opt….opt…..not so much pessimism

Just can’t bring yourself to say it, can you Ron?

Captain of the "Promote Bob Sanders to Deffensive Coordinator" band wagon.

by CanadianBillsFan on Aug 7, 2009 6:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

In spite of their DB fetish, I would still take the Innercircle over Donaboob
Donahoe ignored the O-line

I guess I am not willing to let Donaboob off the hook. If you use a high draft pick on the O-line (Mike Williams), there is a obvious need that needs to be addressed. If your pick doesn’t work out, you can’t just throw your hands up in the air and say “O well”. The glaring need is still there. Here in is the difference between Donahoe and the Innercirlce. To the Innercirlce’s credit, they took with could have been a complete disaster (with the lose of Peters, the underperforming Dockery, and the complete suckatude of Preston and Fowler) and have taken real steps at fixing the situation by bringing in Hang and using high draft picks on Wood and Levitre. Depending on how well they play, that move could rate anywhere from good try to F#@$ing Brilliant, but at least they made a serious effort to fix it.

"I BET YOU IF WE PUT A 12 DOZEN GLAZE DONUTS AT THE OTHER END ON KICK RETURN JAIME DUKES WILL BE OUR NUM # 1 RETURNER …… HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES DUKE APPLE PIE PUNKEN EATER DWINKE SMASHER DING DONG FLABER" - abayarde

by Joe P. on Aug 6, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

True, and you know that I love the Wood pick. I think Buffalo gave up a bit much for Levitre but that’s got more to do with my unhappiness with the Byrd pick than anything else. It is kind of the theme of the article; the Inner Circle is making better use of the draft than Donahoe did.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think that it’s so much that the Inner Circle is making better use of the draft, I think it’s that we can tangebly see that they are trying to build a team through the draft while Donahoe never showed any real plan in his draft pics.

Captain of the "Promote Bob Sanders to Deffensive Coordinator" band wagon.

by CanadianBillsFan on Aug 7, 2009 6:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Feel free to disagree where I've slotted some guys

But really, when we’re talking first and second tier we’re into debatable territory. Some might consider Whitner a first tier guy and/or Poz a second. Okay. Either way, they’re quality players.

Of course, if you really want to rankle Kurupt you can make the case that Kelsay is a first tier guy…though it would be best to try not to let the laughter eminating from your mouth dribble onto the keyboard and into the text.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think...

…that whenever the front office gets together for meetings that they play intro music? I’m thinking of the most well-known Inner Circle song of all time. “Bad boys, bad boys. Whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when they come for you?!”

Perhaps we should come up with a new moniker for Russ & Co. I’m not so sure we want the theme from Cops to be associated with the team, especially after this past offseason.

I'll donate $1 to help Mary Wilson pay the estate tax...who's with me?!?

by O.J. Is My Bodyguard on Aug 6, 2009 12:18 PM EDT reply actions  

If an intro song is played for these meetings,

I’d like to think it’s the Benny Hill theme song.

Twitter: helping to make anti-social people anti-socially social.

by TheAfghanTwilight on Aug 6, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spz8_rpE0e0

"I BET YOU IF WE PUT A 12 DOZEN GLAZE DONUTS AT THE OTHER END ON KICK RETURN JAIME DUKES WILL BE OUR NUM # 1 RETURNER …… HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES DUKE APPLE PIE PUNKEN EATER DWINKE SMASHER DING DONG FLABER" - abayarde

by Joe P. on Aug 6, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Butler, First Tier?????

No waaaaaaaaaay. Not even close. I think you did a nice job on the article and I can see arguments for your other rankings (as you said this is debatable territory), but Brad Butler is third tier at best. I know there are very few statistics for O-linemen, but what there is say he should not be a starter in this league and I couldn’t agree more. In my opinion, he is the weakest link right now on a line that is one of the biggest question marks in football and I would argue that even if he was still at guard. Second tier is debatable, not first.

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions  

Prove it then

Butler was a good Guard for us and there were metrics saying he was solid. Look for Ron’s stats.

Calling him “third tier” is wrong

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Aug 6, 2009 3:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

These are the only stats on him I’ve seen. I would like to see Ron’s stats though and I would put stock in them as well.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast?tag=poa

Brad Butler’s Point-of-Attack win percentage was 75.9%. 80% is considered the low end of acceptability. Even Fowler won 77.4% against the strong nose tackles of the AFC East; wouldn’t you say he is third tier? I think my position on Butler is more than fair and it certainly is at least debatable and not clearly wrong.

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

now that’s the response I was looking for when I saw that comment – rec’d

I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying

by J2 on Aug 6, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

So KC Joyner’s evaluation as an unbiased professional football evaluator means nothing? He says Butler is awful. Don’t get me wrong, I trust that Ron fairly evaluates the line as well, but there are professional evaluators (not just ordinarily football observers and bloggers) who say he is third tier too. But I’m sure you’re right…I didn’t realize we had multiple professional offensive line talent evaluators on here. What a joke, get over yourself.

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, but I don’t see how compensation would make him biased against Brad Butler or the Bills. He rated the OL of every team.

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn’t saying that Joyner’s evaluation means nothing. I just wrote out what I have on Butler for the 2008 season…which tracks pretty closely to the 2007 season. Further, if OBD thought Butler was terrible, why was he retained? It certainly wasn’t for the sake of continuity and there are other guys (even now) available in free agency.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

My comment was not directed to you Ron, but others on here who seem to jump on other people’s opinion even when fairly substantiated just because it is not their own, which is what sways me from making many comments on here even though overall I love the site and read it all the time. As I wrote below I certainly appreciate your thoughtful analysis. I’ll even give you second tier : )

People complain about the Inner Circle’s talent evaluation all the time, just because Butler was retained does not mean necessarily mean he is a better player than those let go or on reserve. Of course, this is the case with any team. Clearly, I agree with you that OBD thinks Butler is at least a decent player and surely a good teammate, but it doesn’t change my opinion.

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course, we’re having this discussion while Butler deals with yet another injury. However people rate Butler’s performance there’s no denying that he has a significant injury history, one which is fast getting to the point of making him less than reliable.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fact

As much as I have bashed Butler, I hope that we do actually have someone better on reserve as history says it is highly likely he won’t make it through a full season as a starter. Can’t wait to check out Bell first-hand this weekend…

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

So KC Joyner’s evaluation as an unbiased professional football evaluator means nothing?

well if he’s calling butler awful – then yes – his unbiased professional football evaluator talents do mean nothing to me.

i’ve read a few graders other than Ron’s and they all say that Butler was solid, not spectacular but solid. Awful? not a chance – that’s Fowler and Preston.

I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying

by J2 on Aug 7, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the detailed response

I can see the detail and time that you put into the analysis, and I think its fair. I never thought he was very good (and I still don’t, but I think we all have a particular person we’d like to see replaced; for some Kelsay, for others Ellison, etc.). Aside from watching him play (and not analyzing it), all I had to go on was Joyner’s awful evaluation of him. I think perhaps you are right in that the scheme of shifting additional help to our terrible centers last year may have skewed the numbers and made Butler appear worse than he actually is.

However, as far as OBD’s opinion of him, I think the fact that he is a smart, hard-worker earns him more playing time than his talent level should dictate (see: Kelsay, Chris). I don’t think we are always putting our best players out there.

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah they hate putting talent on the field. If they had a guy who was better they would play him. To say anything else is ridiculous, especially when the season is falling out from under you and your job may or may not be on the line.

Playing Realistic Optimist at Buffalo Rumblings since 2008. Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

by MattRichWarren on Aug 8, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

RGreat answer Ron, Rec’d.

Oh and I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, you could do this stats thing proffesinally. Seriously, your that good.

Captain of the "Promote Bob Sanders to Deffensive Coordinator" band wagon.

by CanadianBillsFan on Aug 7, 2009 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yea, and also this…

“Right guard Brad Butler, who could be moving out to right tackle this year, was pushed into the backfield six times, most among non-centers and tied with Koppen for second-worst. But Koppen had 197 net POA attempts, while Butler had 112.”

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 3:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Butler had 31 other bad run plays as well. He was responsible for 7 killed run plays and it wouldn’t surprise me if the 6 they’ve noted track pretty closely with the 7 I recorded. For the sake of clarity, I count in plays discounted via penalty as well so long as the play goes from start to finish before the whistle.

Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner

by Ron From NM on Aug 6, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

if that’s the case, he didn’t count them for the other linemen who had many more “killed plays” but yet were pushed into the backfield less.

by thejimbo on Aug 6, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Butler is a good player

however i see him as the least good player we will have starting this year, partially due to his injury record, and as soon as the coaches think Bell is up to the job Butler will be dropped.

Football. Bloody Hell!!

by gregeng on Aug 7, 2009 7:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

SB Nation's home for all things Buffalo Bills.
Community Guidelines :: Essential BR

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Vince-lombardi-trophy-c-01_small
Rush vs. Pass: Then and Now
Small
Buffalo's Waiver Wire Strategy to Roster Building: Part 1 (2010 season)
Sabres_small
Bills should share Ozzie Newsome's pass rushing philosophy
Small
Morning Joe! Should the Bills play in Downtown Buffalo?
Small
Nix! Your on the clock, Cowboys on the phone.
Black3_small
Our Mock 3.3
Small
Off-season for the PLAYOFFS??
Brick_yelling_small
Keys to the Bills Future
Small
Morning Joe! From College to the NFL
Picture_2_small
The best landing spot for Peyton Manning

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Lead Editors

Img_20110806_213313_small Brian Galliford

100_2488_small MattRichWarren

Senior Moderators

Sucks_small Kurupt

Mrsinister03_small sireric

Contributing Authors

Range_march_2011_small Ron From NM

Slide1_small Der Jaeger

Site Moderators

211_talking_proud_1_small krytime

Santa_bill_small poz

Billsdinosaurrider_small WABillsfan

Avatar31985_4_small silverstreak3k

3850_small JPH