Patriots Week: Talking 4-3 defense with Pats Pulpit
It's hard to believe, but the Buffalo Bills' regular season opener against the New England Patriots is one week from today. In preparation for next week's Monday Night Football festivities, we'll be exchanging short interviews with our Patriots blogging counterparts, Pats Pulpit, throughout the week to touch on several key points heading into the game.
Right now, the big story out of New England is the trade of DE Richard Seymour to Oakland. There had been - well, more than whispers; shouts, really - that the Patriots would be switching predominantly to a 4-3 defense this season. The trade of Seymour, coupled with the retirement of ILB Tedy Bruschi, indicates that the move is rather ironclad.
But that doesn't mean the Bills will see 4-3 looks exclusively next Monday. Bill Belichick is still coaching the Patriots, after all - and he, more than anyone, is masterful at disguising defensive looks. I spoke with our Patriots blogger, MaPatsFan of the Pulpit, about his team's transition to the 4-3. Hear what he had to say, along with a thought or two of my own, after the jump.
Me: How legit is the Patriots' supposed transition to a 4-3 defense? Is it more something they've been trying out to use as a wrinkle, or is this now their base defense?
MaPatsFan: I think it's very legit that the Patriots will move to a 4-3 alignment. However, I wouldn't put it past them to switch to a 3-4 every once in a while to mix things up. Even when New England was pegged as a 3-4, they moved things around a bit. That being said, there are some reasons why it seems apparent a 4-3 is in the picture:
a) Lack of pass rushing depth at LB;
b) Acquisitions of hybrid DE/LBs Tully Banta-Cain and Derrick Burgess;
c) Rookie DL Ron Brace is coming up to speed fast;
d) Trade of DL Richard Seymour, who's not a 4-3 DE.In the early off-season, we'd made serious inquiries into Julius Peppers and Jason Taylor as pass rushing OLBs; nothing panned out and the acquisitions of Burgess and Banta-Cain makes a very strong case for a 4-3. We've been weak at getting into the backfield, and many in Patriots land hope this is the answer to our pass rushing problems.
Let's not forget why the Patriots missed the playoffs in 2008 - their defense wasn't great. While a Tom Brady-less offense finished No. 5 in the NFL, the defense didn't make enough plays, even while finishing No. 10 defensively. The Patriots only had 30 sacks - which, obviously, makes Buffalo's totals look weak, but in themselves are weak as well - and now Seymour and his team-leading eight sacks are gone. The team's 14 interceptions were a far cry from their heyday (and only four more than the Bills themselves tallied), and much of their veteran talent looked very much as if they were on the downside of their career.
Now, this is a defense in transition. Many of their starters were jettisoned. They've been replaced by run-of-the-mill veterans and talented rookies in most cases. Considering the list of talented pass rushers the Bills will face later this season when they take on the likes of Mario Williams, Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeney, the trio of Adalius Thomas, Derrick Burgess and Tully Banta-Cain looks pretty timid in comparison.
Buffalo's oft-referenced struggles with the 3-4 defense are well documented. However, New England doesn't have the personnel to run that scheme every down this year. Here's what you'll likely see on Monday Night: if New England runs a 3-4, they'll do it on run downs, so that they can disguise run blitzes and put pressure on the Bills' youthful offensive line. In passing situations, however, they're not likely to get much pressure out of a 3-4; that's when you'll see the 4-3 come into play.
Just like in Buffalo, the pass rush is New England's biggest issue, and the 4-3 switch is intended to alleviate that problem, as MaPatsFan mentioned. Coupled with a young secondary that struggled in the pre-season, there are plays to be had for the Bills on Monday Night - even if the Bills themselves are very much a work in progress offensively.
Be sure to drop by Pats Pulpit throughout the week, as they will, in turn, be having several Bills-centric discussions. Bet you can't guess what MaPatsFan asked me first!
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42 comments
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Comments
See this is why I don’t understand why some people are convinced that even without Brady the Pats would crush us. They are NOT the same team as 3 years ago, let alone last year. Their defense, I think, is going to hold them back this year.
I am well aware that without Brady they beat us by 10 points each game last year, but that was before we had TO and before they gave up a few major pieces of their defense. I think our prospects of scoring points on them this year are greatly improved. Our chances of pulling out an upset are therefore improved as well.
"We want to win immediately. To say you're building is an incomplete sentence. ... You're building for a future coach and general manager."
-Marv Levy
by TEMSON on Sep 7, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
well the offensive with Brady wont hold them back
and they have a long win record over the bills
and still a top D line which will hurt your o line
by Patsfan4life on Sep 7, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You must have missed the “even without Brady” – it was a discussion you weren’t around here for.
I don’t know about the top D line anymore, but that will be seen soon enough.
"We want to win immediately. To say you're building is an incomplete sentence. ... You're building for a future coach and general manager."
-Marv Levy
by TEMSON on Sep 7, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that the Pats this year will look a lot like the Colts of 5 years ago: The league’s top Offense, but a weak deffence that will lose the big games for them. Don’t get me wrong, your still a VERY good team (the one to beat in the AFC East) but your D will be what makes you volnerable.
As for the long win record against the Bills, it’s gotta end sometime.
Captain of the "Promote Bob Sanders to Deffensive Coordinator" band wagon.
by CanadianBillsFan on Sep 7, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Over half of the Patriots D has changed, just from last year.
"We want to win immediately. To say you're building is an incomplete sentence. ... You're building for a future coach and general manager."
-Marv Levy
by TEMSON on Sep 7, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that is not a bad thing
based on it’s performance, especially in the last half of the season.
In Belichick we trust, but I think even most Pats fans don’t really know what to expect from the defense this year. Personally, I have given up having any real opinion on it, until we see it in action. (Which, thankfully, will be soon.)
by hythlodaeus on Sep 8, 2009 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Da Pats........
I hate to say it but the Patriots are the best run organization in football—coaches come & go, front office people come & go and players come & go and they never miss a beat as long as Belichick an Kraft are on the same page. They have the ultimun knack of getting rid of players on the verge of their downsides and getting high picks in the first round for them. They know how to evaluate talent and know when to pull the trigger on when to get rid of players——it kills me to say it but they are brilliant on how they run their organization—-Bastards!!!!
"If you don't have good habits you have bad habits there are no in between habits"
by Goose22 on Sep 7, 2009 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Making the scheme fit the players
You have to tip your hat to Belicheat. Here’s a guy who has pretty much lived and breathed the 3-4 for the past couple of decades. Once it became clear to him that he didn’t have the players to execute the scheme he wanted to run he made the wholesale switch to a form of defense that his players can run. That’s exactly the sort of adaptability that keeps the Patriots in the hunt year after year after year.
Of course we could make things more challenging, Lisa, but then the stupider students would be in here complaining, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt to understand the situation--Seymour Skinner
by Ron From NM on Sep 7, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the Seymour trade makes them any more or less likely to go through the scheme change. Seymour is a 6’6’’, 310 pound guy who would be an ideal fit as an under tackle in a 4-3 scheme, especially playing next to a true NT like Wilfork or Brace.
And I’m surprised there wasn’t a mention of Mayo as part of the reasoning. He looks like he could excel as the centerpiece of a 4-3. He could put up absurd tackle numbers if they went 4-3 full time.
Derrick Burgess has to be a big part of this decision. He’s probably the best pass rusher on the Pats and he’s probably a better player with a hand on the ground. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Pats 4-3 looks a lot like the Pats 3-4, only Burgess lines up as a 4th defensive lineman at RDE instead of standing up at ROLB. I was surprised to see that a lot of Bills fans were kind of hyping the return of Schobel while largely writting off the acquisition of Burgess. Their stats and situations over the last few seasons are remarkably similiar.
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/1903/Aaron_Schobel/career
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/3295/Derrick_Burgess/career
I’ve also read that one of the main reasons the Pats are going to use a 4-3 more is to take advantage of more of a classic nickel package. That makes sense to me, it really fits their personnel well.
by kaisertown on Sep 7, 2009 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the difference is, the Pats effectively replaced Seymour with Burgess – that’s a move destined to bring down sack totals. Where as we’re going from not having Schoebel to having him – hopefully bringing up sack totals.
"We want to win immediately. To say you're building is an incomplete sentence. ... You're building for a future coach and general manager."
-Marv Levy
by TEMSON on Sep 7, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I meant that people were talking about a big return from Schobel all offseason while the Pats trading for Burgess was barely a blip on this site’s radar. It was just a fanshot where only a handful of people commented and very few thought the move was a big deal.
by kaisertown on Sep 7, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point, but naturally we care more about what happens with the Bills then the Pats.
"We want to win immediately. To say you're building is an incomplete sentence. ... You're building for a future coach and general manager."
-Marv Levy
by TEMSON on Sep 7, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish Burgess was one of our pass rushers.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Sep 7, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
K and I were both wanting them to trade a 4th for Burgess, I was upset when the Pats got him
What do you want to bet Belicheck started talking to Al and Co. about the Seymour trade right after he got Burgess and saw the 1st preseason game after it? I bet you he started right then, he is just to darn smart to not make a move needed for now and for later
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
by WABillsfan on Sep 7, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would def. have traded a 4th for Burgess – but I’m pretty excited about Maybin and think our sack totals should improve considerably this year.
"We want to win immediately. To say you're building is an incomplete sentence. ... You're building for a future coach and general manager."
-Marv Levy
by TEMSON on Sep 7, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts exactly
Hoodie was talking trade months ago.
Blogger at SBNation's Patriots blog, Pats Pulpit
by MaPatsFan on Sep 7, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you guys think it's the
pass rush of a 3-4 defense that seems to give Edwards trouble? Or is it more the drop of the lineman that makes it harder for him to see the open receiver?
by Buffalonian on Sep 7, 2009 12:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Trent's issue last year was that teams could pressure our line with just 3 to 4 guys
Allowing them to drop up to 8 men back, and since Trent doesn’t have a Cutler like cannon and none of our other WRs are worth a lick past Evans, who himself has a limited skill set, Trent had no where to go with the ball but to the short checkdown.
Also, in line with the Turk firing, how many times did we hear Trent mention at the end of games how often other teams used formations, player packages, and plays on D that they had NEVER practiced for? And some idiots want to complain that letting Turk go was a mistake? Hello McFly!
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
by WABillsfan on Sep 7, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bingo!!!!
Turk was HORRIBLE at preperations. Heck Trent even complained about it this pre-season. Here’s hoppen the DJ and AVP do a better job then Schonert did, if not, why not just let Trent handle it? He seems to complain about it enough, I say put up or shut up.
Captain of the "Promote Bob Sanders to Deffensive Coordinator" band wagon.
by CanadianBillsFan on Sep 7, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Optimal 40 Front being tried by Pats
NE is taking advantage of Jim Bates’ style of 40 front, which is one of the NFL’s optimal defenses. Bates’ defense is based on the Jimmy Johnson Miami Hurricane defense.
Essential, start with a Tampa Two 40 front. Make two changes:
Change 1.) Use wide-body, two gap DT’s instead of smaller one-gap DT’s
This puts a ton of strain on the OL. Instead of having one wide body over the center, you now have a wide body over each guard. They are playing gap control, so you automatically account for both A Gaps and both B Gaps. That allows the ends and LB’s to roam, and run-and-hit. You still keep undersized DE’s to make up for the rush ability that you lose in the DT’s. LB’s are still the smaller, fast Tampa 2 LB’s.
Example of what this looks like: Dolphins 2000-2004.
Change 2.) Rely on Cover 3 more than Cover 2, and mix in press and man coverages.
This relieves a lot of strain on the MLB to get deep in coverage. You still mix the LB deep in quite a bit, and the coverage is still a zone at it’s roots. CB’s need to be a lot better at man coverage though.
Example of what this looks like: Same Dolphins, 2000-2004; Cowboys throughout the ’90’s..
Benefits of the system:
With the wide-bodies in the middle, and the umbrella coverage, you unleash both DE’s and all three LB’s to create havoc. Where the Cowboys wanted to run smaller DT’s at offenses in waves, Bates decided to go with bigger DT’s with gap control.
This optimizes the use of the best athletes on the defense. Both ends have contain responsibilities. That’s an easy assignment for a Jason Taylor (or an Aaron Maybin?) because it’s not that hard to keep contain on the way to the QB. The strong side LB is the only LB that maintains a gap responsibility (strong side C gap). The MLB is usually clean, since the center is doubling one of the DT’s on every play. The WLB is really freed up to make plays, with no gap responsibility unless the offense runs 2 TE’s. The SS is free to be used in multiple different roles (Whitner written all over it).
Monte Kiffin realized this during his later years with the Bucs, as he tried to get wide-body DT’s on the team (Darrell Russell, Ryan Sims).
So, while the Tampa 2 may need some retinkering before it’s widely uses again, I think we’re about to see a resurgence of the Jimmy Johnson defense.
We should get on board.
by Der Jaeger on Sep 7, 2009 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Nice overview
rec’d
I’m much in favor of having two big fatties in the middle. I really don’t like 295 lb DT’s unless they are absolutely great at penetrating the gaps. Those guys are few and far between, though. If I were building my DL, two monsters inside would be my ideal building blocks. It’s tough to handle guys like that one on one, and they in turn allow the LB’s to roam more freely.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Sep 7, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember when we had Sam Adams and Pat Williams? Sam’s best days were behind him, but he played ok.
I want to see movies of my dreams. - Built to Spill
by jj24 on Sep 7, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did his job which was to take up a guy
And Pat always demanded 2 bodies if not three on occassion as I remember it.
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
by WABillsfan on Sep 7, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The little twist to make it "new again" would be to. . .
. . . rotate like Dallas used to, with bigger DT’s.
Let’s say this off-season we pick up another big DT (Ryan Pickett, Gabe Watson, or, if we are lucky, Domata Peko).
A four DT rotation of Stroud, new guy, Williams, and McCargo (if he plays up to his pre-season) would be hard to stop.
by Der Jaeger on Sep 7, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hell, I’d take a 5-man rotation. We could stand to lose a LB or FB or something to roster cuts next year.
"We want to win immediately. To say you're building is an incomplete sentence. ... You're building for a future coach and general manager."
-Marv Levy
by TEMSON on Sep 8, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Change 1.) Use wide-body, two gap DT’s instead of smaller one-gap DT’s
I have been begging for the Bills to draft one of these for years. In fact, one of my early mock drafts had the Bills taking Ron Brace with the #42 pick. The Pats took him with #40.
Teflon Jauron…..Nothing sticks to Dick
by Joe P. on Sep 7, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted Red Bryant last year.
I want to see movies of my dreams. - Built to Spill
by jj24 on Sep 7, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Red is looking good this year, the Seahawks are really rotating him in hard right now
He is pretty much their first guy off the bench, and he has gone from just a fattie to a stacked fattie, they really pushed him in the work out rooms and alot that is now muscle, he will be a good one imho in another season or two with time on the field under his belt.
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
by WABillsfan on Sep 7, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for the update. It’s cool to get your Northern-Pacific coast insight.
Good for Red. He seemed to be a player with loads of potential coming out of college. I really thought he would have been a great pick for the Bills. He is a monster with fairly good athleticism.
I want to see movies of my dreams. - Built to Spill
by jj24 on Sep 7, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s ok, we got a 25 year old nickel back instead.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Sep 8, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You like fat guys, we know!
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Sep 7, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and don't forget.....skinny women :-)
Teflon Jauron…..Nothing sticks to Dick
by Joe P. on Sep 7, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same here buddy!
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
by WABillsfan on Sep 7, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your name always reminds me of Jeff Jaeger.
I want to see movies of my dreams. - Built to Spill
by jj24 on Sep 7, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It always reminds me of Jägermeister
Teflon Jauron…..Nothing sticks to Dick
by Joe P. on Sep 7, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer Jaegermonsters myself

(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
by WABillsfan on Sep 7, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the hell is that????? Robert E. Lee as Mr Hyde?
Teflon Jauron…..Nothing sticks to Dick
by Joe P. on Sep 7, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, nope, but an amusing thought none the less
Check this site out and enjoy….
(443): My mom came into my room and told me to flip off the tv. I gave it the middle finger. Note to self: STOP SMOKING THIS S#!T
-textsfromlastnight.com
by WABillsfan on Sep 8, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another benefit of having bigger DTs
is you don’t get pushed around in the rain and snow like we have the past few years.
Teflon Jauron…..Nothing sticks to Dick
by Joe P. on Sep 7, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sam and Pat were the bomb.....................
….. and we blew it again and let them both go. WTF? Our little John McCanDo-s and undersized DTs can’t get it done. Stroud needs help.
"A failure becomes just one time at bat if you refuse to let it defeat you." Marv Levy.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Sep 7, 2009 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
dont forget the wonderful Larry Tripplett
Godspeed Nick - RIP - 1986-2009
by norcaliangelsfan on Sep 8, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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