Which defensive scheme will the Bills use?
Which defensive scheme will the 2010 Bills use? Before we find out, I thought that it might be a good idea to talk about each defensive scheme in terms of strengths and weaknesses. This won't cover every variation of every defense, but will cover the basics.
We'll start with a some history. I think it's useful to document how each scheme began and evolved, and to dispel a lot of the rumors about the schemes. In my opinion, there is no one scheme that's displayed dominance over another. Scheming on defense can't replace good players. Also, each defense has been dominant during a period of NFL history. In the case of the Bullough-Fairbanks 30 Front and the 46 Defense, the defenses were dominant, went out of style, evolved, and re-emerged as a dominant form of defense.
The base 3-4 (Bullough-Fairbanks) defense was designed in the ’40s at OU but wasn’t used in the NFL until Miami used in in 1972, but is was more a hybrid defense than a true 3-4. The 3-4 became the defense of choice in the late 1970s and into the 1980s. Two styles were used: the base defense, and for those teams that had a pass-rushing OLB, the hyprid or "elephant" 3-4. The defense waned in the ’90s, as teams began to win with fast-flowing 4-3 defenses used by Dallas, Minnesota, and Tampa Bay. In the late 1990s only two teams ran a 3-4 defense: Pittsburgh and Buffalo. The defense re-emerged with use by the Patriots and the ease of finding small college DEs to fill the OLB roles, despite the difficulty in finding true NTs to man the scheme.
The LeBeau or Blitzburgh 3-4 defense is similar in set-up as the Bullough-Fairbanks. The main difference is that any player in the front seven can blitz, and any player in the front seven can drop into coverage. The scheme still requires a space-eating NT but places more emphasis on having good athletes at all four LB positions and both DEs.
The Base 4-3 was designed in the ’50s by the NY Giants. It was supposedly designed by then-defensive coordinator Tom Landry to stop Jim Brown. It was the defense of choice through the 1960s and into the 1970s, and faded in the late ’70s and into the 1980s. The defense re-emerged with the success of Jimmy Johnson, who used a one-gap fast-flowing 4-3 defense with the Dallas Cowboys. Scouts also found it easier to find smaller DTs and LBs who could run and fit the scheme. When Tony Dungy took over the Bucanneers, it solidified this trend to the point where 30 of 32 NFL teams ran a 4-3 defense in the late 1990s. The defense waned as passing attacks became more complex and dependant on the spread formation, as the 4-3 had lesser blitz variation to confuse an offense.
The Tampa 2 began with the Steelers' Steel Curtain defense in the 1970s. The defense was run exclusively by the Steelers until Dungy took over as the Defensive Coordinator for the Vikings in the early 1990s. He brought the defense with him to Tampa Bay and later Indianapolis. It shared the some of the same principles as Jimmy Johnson’s defense, but was also much simpler, as the defense played the same way every snap. The scheme began to flame out when Peyton Manning exposed it the year after Tampa’s Super Bowl win, as the defense is limited in the amount of variations that it can use during the game. The scheme also became harder to draft for as offenses got more complex, as a defense that runs a vanilla scheme needs tremendous athletes across its front seven.
The Bates 4-3 defense is similar in design as the Jimmy Johnson fast-flowing defense as well as the Tampa 2. Main differences include playing more man defense than zone at the CB positions, and the two DTs playing two-gap instead of one-gap. The scheme essentially has two NTs, each one playing over the guard. This allows for the rest of the team to play a fast flowing attacking style. Bates' defense was very good with the Wannstadt-era Dolphins, with Tim Bowens and Darryl Gardener clogging the middle and allowing undersized players like Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas become stars.
The 46 defense began with the Bears in the ’80s under Buddy Ryan. It quickly flamed out as the scheme was very vulnerable without a defensive front seven full of stars, with only the Eagles using the defense by the ’90s. It re-emerged in a different form later in the decade. Many concepts survived: the SLB as a stand-up DE-type, the two DTs and one DE covering the center and both guards, and a SS that plays in the box. This form of the defense was highly successful in the NFL in the late 1990s and through the past decade, with the Giants’ Super Bowl win being the culmination of the 46 re-emergence. The Eagles, Titans, Bills, Saints, and Lions have run this defense the past decade, with the first three teams mentioned having near-NFL best defenses at various points. The main reason for the success of this defense is that it offers near-equal blitz variations as a 3-4 defense, and it’s easier to draft for than a traditional or Tampa 2 variation of the 4-3. In this defense, the DTs are big space eaters but not NT types, the WDE and SLB are edge rushers, the SDE is a 5-technique DE, the MLB and WLB are smaller LBs, and the SS is a SS-LB hybrid; all of these types of players are common in the college ranks. This form of defense is also more reliant on scheme and less on star players when compared to a Tampa 2 or traditional 4-3 defense.
Bullough-Fairbanks 3-4
Strengths: 3 down linemen all play two-gap, leaving only one LB with a gap assignment. Very good against outside runs with a LB and DE placed at the OT or wider. Bigger bodies needed to play the defense allow the team to be physical with run-oriented offenses. The blitz packages are extensive and have been the most successful recently in countering spread and Coryall offenses. ILBs can be ordinary athletes with good instincts and do well.
Weaknesses: Defense requires three very good defensive linemen to be effective in order to keep the LBs free to make plays. Slower defense that can be exposed if the offensive line is successful in pass protection. Fast TEs give the defense trouble, as well as teams that can run with power out of the two-TE, one-back set.
Used By: New England, Kansas City, Miami, Cleveland, Denver, Green Bay, San Francisco
Hybrid or Elephant Version of the Bullough-Fairbanks 3-4
ROLB shown as a defensive lineman and designated as "B" since the player mostly rushes.
Used By: Baltimore, NY Jets, San Diego
LeBeau 3-4
Strengths: Faster players that can all rush and all drop into cover allows for almost innumerable blitzing combinations. Very effective against passing offenses due to confusion created by blitzing combinations. Effective stunting and looping on pass rushes, and also effective shooting gaps on run plays. Nearly impossible to beat wide.
Weaknesses: Can be overwhelmed by a power rushing attack that takes advantage of blitzes and movement. Will give up big plays when the defense doesn't get to the QB. Requires a good coverage SS as the defense's blitzing combinations make the scheme susceptible to pass catching TEs or bigger WRs that use the middle of the field. Requires a great NT to base the defense and the draft has to bring in a lot of quality athletes at LB.
Best Used By: Pittsburgh
3-4 Over
Strengths: Combines strength of a 3-4 hybrid with attacking, one-gap scheme. Very fast defense that can disrupt timing of passing attacks and beat blockers to spots in the run game. Hard to run wide against as every player in the front is athletic and can run. Blitz combinations can be as varied as the LeBeau defense. Very good pass rushing defense.
Weaknesses: Can be run against effectively with a power run game. Defense uses smaller players that can be worn down as the game goes on. Will give up a lot of big play is the pass rush doesn't get to the QB. Requires high quality personnel at almost every position in the front.
Used By: Dallas, Arizona
Base 4-3
Strengths: Four down linemen to attack four of the five offensive linemen allows LBs to take advantage of blocking by backs and TEs. Good with inside runs and OLBs are in position to stack the edge and hold against outside runs. OLBs in position to keep TEs from getting off the ball cleanly. Fast flowing and will penetrate against runs and passes.
Weaknesses: Older defense that has morphed into a couple other defenses. MLB must be a Pro-Bowl level player for the defense to work. Few blitz variations. Very vanilla.
Used by: Houston, Oakland, Atlanta
Tampa 2
Strengths: Extremely hard to play against if the defense has all the required personnel. Scheme calls for penetration on every play to disrupt pass and run, and can generate a solid rush without blitzing. Very fast LBs that don't allow for big plays in the passing game. Hard to run against wide. Effective against fast TEs and pass catching RBs. Can generate a lot of big plays with the number of athletes on the field.
Weaknesses: The defense requires at least one Pro-Bowl DT, two very good ends, and extremely fast LBs to be truly dominant, which is all hard to find. Can be gashed by running plays for big gains. If one gap assignment is missed, the entire defense can fail for the play. A bending defense that can be driven on.
Used by: Indianapolis, Minnesota, Chicago, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Seattle
46 Defense
The Bear 46....
... has morphed into this:
Strengths: Uses two big DTs and a bigger 5-technique DE on the strong side to overwhelm the G-C-G-RT. Uses an edge rusher as a strong side LB that excels at rushing the passer and stacking the edge. MLB and WLB kept clean to make tackles. Difficult to run inside against and wide against the strong side. Can use a similar blitz package as a 3-4 with two LB's playing inside the tackle box and off the ball.
Weaknesses: Gives up big plays to runners that break through the second level. Can give up runs to the weak side. Susceptible to fast TEs and RBs without a very good SS. Can be torn apart by a horizontal West Coast system that protects the QB.
Used by: Cincinnati, Tennessee, Philadelphia, Giants, Washington, Detroit, New Orleans, St. Louis.
Bates 4-3
Strengths: A variation of the Jimmy Johnson 4-3 defense that essentially calls for two NTs type players to man the DTs positions. Hard defense to run against because of the containment style the defense plays. The two DTs take up the G-C-G in blocking schemes, allowing the smaller and faster DEs and OLBs to funnel plays back inside playing off blocks from TEs and backs. The MLB then cleans up making the tackle agains the runner, who can't get wide and has no hole between the guards. Very good against wide plays, fast TEs, RBs and offenses that spread the field.
Weaknesses: Hard to find two NTs. Smaller linebackers and ends are vulnerable if the runner gets past the line of scrimmage. Somewhat inflexible in terms of what type of personnel the scheme requires. Scheme needs two DEs that can get to the passer on their own.
Used by: Jacksonville, 2009 Buccaneers
Hopefully this helps us define the conversation about what type of defense that we could or should use. I'll start with this statement: my studies of defenses has led me to believe three things:
Players dictate success on defense more than scheme. I can find few defenses that were great without great players but using a great scheme. There are plenty of so-called "bad" schemes that work because of great players. Minnesota's Tampa 2 is a great example of this.
Schemes aren't successful or unsuccessful because of weather or location alone. Chicago plays the Tampa 2 in the cold, Miami plays a Bullough-Fairbanks 3-4 in good weather.
None of these defenses will every "die" completely. They will evolve and change. Just like the Bullough-Fairbanks version of the 3-4 defense "died" in the late 1990’s, but re-emerged with the Patriots. And because of this, no defensive scheme is ever permanently superior. You can already see the vulnerabilities of the Bullough-Fairbanks 3-4 when a Wildcat offense is run at it.
Let the debate begin!
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Excellent Read!
Thanks for this post!
It would seem to me that the Bills are best equipped to run some form of the 46 but I can picture Brady throwing for 400 against that scheme as well…
If the rumors are true and Bates is being considered for DC, are Stroud and Williams a fit for the DTs in that scheme?
How much more flexible will the defense be if Maybin shows us SOMETHING next year?
its all good.
To be fair, Brady can throw for 400 against just about any defense!
I call it... The Avaslug!
Blown two goal leads... empty arena... David Koci's 1 minute of ice time...
The Avalanche Experience.
by UZ on Jan 26, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
DT Scheme fits
Both maybe. Stroud has always been a one-gap penetrator, and Williams is best as a one-gap penetrator.
But Stroud has the girth to do so, and Williams reminds me of Kelly Gregg, who plays NT in Baltimore’s scheme.
Excellent, Excellent Read!!
As I consider myself an uninformed fan, i loved this post for it great content and wonderful layout.
Thank you for teaching me something.
Excellent, excellent post Der Jaeger. Your quickly become my favorite poster. Your scouting reports have been great, and I’d love for more X’s and O’s type stuff, just like this. (Man gush off).
K has said it before and I’ll echo it here: There simply isn’t enough talent on this team for the Bills to worry about what current parts fit best with what scheme. Nix and Gailey should decide what defensive scheme they want to run based solely on their philosophies, not the current roster.
There’s been a lot of chatter around here lately about the 3-4 and while I like the 3-4, I think it’s far too difficult to draft for. I personally would like to see the 46 return to Buffalo. I love the way the Giants, Philadelphia, Tennessee, and Cincinnati play defense and it wouldn’t require the Bills to find a dominate NT like the 3-4. And even though I’ve already said the Bills shouldn’t cater to their current roster, the Bills defensive backfield seems well-suited for the 46, while Maybin, would likely get left out.
Bill Polian and AJ Smith are gone, so there's not the usual balance between "sane" and "others." Ralph has mentally checked out since 1994. It's a very dangerous time. The coalition for reason is extremely weak.
A 46 would work
Schobel has played the weakside DE before, and Maybin could move to the strongside OLB position, and play similarly to Chris Gocong and Matthias Kiwanuka.
Does Maybin fit a Bates 4-3? or Base 4-3?
www.Foundation58.org - "Helping Those Who Help Us" in the fight against cancer.
Wow. Great readPerhaps Maybin can switch to LB?
"This is what happens Larry!, This is what happens! "-Walter Sobchak
by BigEasyBillsKrewe on Jan 26, 2010 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
I think he's a great fit for the Bates scheme
Bates’ scheme calls for the DE’s to play wide, and they don’t have to play head up against the OT. Maybin and Schobel would do very well manning the two DE positions.
Thank you
for putting your time into this. Truly awesome work. One can only hope we get such expertise out of the new coaches.
Some real food for thought on how best to use what we have and determine what we need.
Thanks again!
"I have become comfortably numb" P. Floyd
True.But I think we may all agree that the tampa 2 is not for our roster.
"This is what happens Larry!, This is what happens! "-Walter Sobchak
by BigEasyBillsKrewe on Jan 26, 2010 9:17 AM EST reply actions
I read that Kelsey is very excited about the 3-4 or 4-3, and he loves the Chan hire.He has high hopes that our offense will improve and keep our D fresher.
"This is what happens Larry!, This is what happens! "-Walter Sobchak
by BigEasyBillsKrewe on Jan 26, 2010 9:22 AM EST reply actions
Again,wanted to say THANK YOU for a great post.
"This is what happens Larry!, This is what happens! "-Walter Sobchak
by BigEasyBillsKrewe on Jan 26, 2010 9:23 AM EST reply actions
Wow. Great Post.
I haven’t seen anyone put such a thorough comparison together, this is really great.
It’s interesting that every one of these schemes has been successful at some point, it just really depends on having the personnel to run it. Without a true NT you are screwed if you try to run any kind of 3-4.
I believe we will know soon, possibly today, what scheme the Bills are going with. I expect it to be the Bates 4-3.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
Bates Defense vs. Tampa 2
Someone over at Buc ’Em also wrote a really great in depth post comparing the Bates 4-3 and the Tampa 2.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
by PerryTuttle22 on Jan 26, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
Boy
Can be gashed by running plays for big gains. If one gap assignment is missed, the entire defense can fail for the play. A bending defense that can be driven on.
Does that sound like our version of the T2 defense in ’09?
"I have become comfortably numb" P. Floyd
That's every T2 that doesn't have the right personnel
The defense is great if you have the people because it’s simple and turns great athletes loose on the offense.
We didn’t have the horses for that kind of defense.
Loved this post, thanks Der Jaeger. It seems to me that Kyle Williams could be a major factor in deciding which scheme to play (assuming that whomever the new D coordinator is initially will tailor the scheme to the players). He’s the best player on our D line, maybe the best player on our defense last year (at least most consistent). He definitely seems to me to be a one gap player, so I wonder how many schemes we could play with him. Maybe as a DE in either the 3-4 Over or that 5 technique DE in the 46?
Williams
He could play head up as a 3-4 DE, but I think he’d struggle at strongside DE in the 46. The 46 strongside DE needs to be able to anchor well and rush the passer. Think Michael Strahan. It’s also a role that Kelsay fits well.
Rec Rec Rec Rec Rec!
Excellent analysis and informational.
Just a sidenote: Up until Landry intoduced the 4-3 in the ’50’s, the 5-2 was pretty much the standard defense in the NFL. Landry walked the NG back a few yards to create a MLB position. He also created the “Flex” 4-3 variation, also known as the “Doomsday” defense back in the ’70’s.
Get the Bills back to the big game!
What about the hyrbid
Alot of talk about converting to the 3-4 Vs the 4-3 and the fact we really can’t afford the switch without dismantling the entire front seven. What if we pick up the single tower to play NT and a big speed LB. Wouldn’t that allow us to show 3-4 on occassion with some success. To run the 3-4 on a majority of the time would work against us but to show the 3-4 with few additions this could have a favorable impact. Personnally this is the way to go, HYBRID. Different look, create confusion on offense, then apply different attack scenerio’s. We are getting ahead of oursleves. This post is definately a touch them all one.
Is it really average talent or just poor coaching, how important is depth and experience.
Really good post
Baltimore does this better than anyone, and NE still does it though they didn’t have the personnel this year.
Baltimore switches between a 3-4 hybrid and a 4-3, with these personnel:
Kelly Gregg, NT (DT)
Haloti Ngata, DE (DT)
Trevor Pryce (Dwan Edwards) DE (DE)
Terrell Suggs, OLB (DE)
Jarret Johnson, OLB (SLB)
Dannell Ellerbe, ILB (OLB)
Ray Lewis, ILB (MLB)
Most of those players are very good and very smart. They essentially have to learn a 3-4 Hybrid defense and then learn another defense, and be able to adjust from play to play.
Hard to do without great personnel.
with LB upgrades and man coverage DB’s, our T2 could be vastly improved. OBD should make Leslie Frazier the highest paid DC/asst HC in the league. I wonder if the 3-4 proponents realize that scheme likely doesn’t have a spot for Poz?
most of my posts get deleted :(
Use of Maybin as Rush Linebacker
It would be nice if we could run something that uses Maybin as a rush linebacker.
I really like the Elephant version of the 3-4 to allow Maybin to serve as the “B”, but not necessarily count on him to always hold against the run. This is the role Byrce Paup played for us back in the day, right? I suppose I’m dreaming, as we don’t have the stout middle backers or the space eating DTs for this scheme, anyway.
I like whatever scheme gets us to the playoffs.
by IthacaBillsFan on Jan 26, 2010 10:16 AM EST reply actions
GT rumor
that Giff Smith (GT DL and recruiting coordinator) is off to Buffalo to be LB coach. Any releases or info in the upstate?
I guess the atmosphere that I've tried to create here is that I'm a friend first and a boss second, and probably an entertainer third.
he would fit the "name" requirement
“Giff” , Chan, Buddy, etc. He’s a shoe-in if he qualifies for Social Security
"I have become comfortably numb" P. Floyd
GREAT READ!
Rec’d
Good Job Der Jaeger
I can do all things through he whom gives me strength. Philippians 4:13
Great read DJ
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
great article!
from what i’ve read, Indy and minnesota both no longer use the tampa 2, or at least use it with more traditional 4-3 players. The vikes have nobody whose undersized on their front 7, and the guy they had at MLB during the playoffs weighed in at 275. And from what I’ve read, though they are slightly undersized, Coyer has moved indy much more to the standard 4-3.
Your writeup of the bates 4-3 really interests me, and kind of turns me off to the idea of running it. Seems like a lot of things need to go right, and you need to go get the toughest-to-find elements of the 4-3 (great pass-rushing DE’s) and the toughest-to-find elements of the 3-4 (NT’s).
...so I guess now I root for chan gailey...
Tough to have
But we actually did have it a few years ago.
Sam Adams, Ted Washington, and Pat Williams.
Aaron Schobel and Marcellus Wiley? with London Fletcher and Takeo Spikes.
Am I just mixing our best players of the 2000s now? or was this an actual D
mm i dont think wiley and washington intersected with the others...
except for williams of course.
...so I guess now I root for chan gailey...
Awesome job
Thanks for doing all the work to share with us. Really is quite helpful.
I did notice something though. Something good. The weaknesses of all the defenses that our divisional rivals run is a power running game. And correct me if I am wrong but isn’t that what Gailey is going for?
I think if we develop our line and pick up a really nice blocking TE, we can have success running the ball against our AFC east foes.
Would you agree with this?
Having two TE's that can block is the Achilles heal of the Bullough-Fairbanks
A guy like Kleinsasser and Manumaleuna is solid gold for a team against a 3-4. It give the defense another gap to account for and detracts from the defense’s strength
Very Interesting Stuff
Great to see actual analysis somewhere about the Bills instead the usual knee-jerk stuff you get in the paper.
you're the der jaeger-bomb
this is great! i too love pictures and have learned a lot. Still haven’t made up my mind about what defense I’d like to see in Buffalo over the coming years, but at least now I have the tools to mull it over for a bit. Thanks!
Rec'd
This was a really great post Jaeger. The defenses are explained very well so that even I could understand them, and the draws really help.
I was looking up the defensive schemes a while back on wikipedia and couldn’t find any that went back before the 40’s. What did people use before then?
Great Stuff
My only concern is if Mabyn fits anywhere other than ST?? or the bench
Rec'd
Great writeup Der Jaeger! Thanks for helping me to understand the schemes better.
After reading the pros and cons of each scheme, I’d actually prefer the Bills to use a Base 4-3. The Bills had a decent passing defense; their CBs and safeties are respectable to good (with Byrd going to the ProBowl). I think the Bills need to focus on stopping the run. I also think the weather in Buffalo will dictate some games to be heavily relied on running the football.
As a side note, the Patriots actually shifted to using a 4-3 last season when they had difficulty stopping the run. They almost exclusively used the 4-3 during their playoff game against the Ravens, but still got pounded on the ground by the Ravens.
Bills fan half way around the world
Fantastic write up.
I can honestly say I’m more anxious to see what is run, rather than guessing now- if for no other reason than to figure out where everyone fits.
by TheK-GunNeedsReloaded on Jan 26, 2010 12:39 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Best post ever !!!! rec'd
Schemes aren’t successful or unsuccessful because of weather or location alone.
I know you said “alone”, but I would like a little more explanation. Some defenses must be easier to run in good weather or in domes (T2), while others lend themselves to playing in the muck and snow (B-F 34, Bear 46, or 2 NT 43 systems).
"Do you even hear how totally bat sh!t insane you sound?" - Archer
Stadium or locations don't matter alone
You have to pick the players that fill the scheme.
Indy knows that they will win 11-14 games a year and play a lot of playoff games in the dome. Therefore, they have two undersized DE’s and very fast linebackers that take advantage of the conditions.
Chicago had a dominant Tampa two with much bigger DE’s that weren’t as fast as the Indy ends. Their linebackers were bigger but just as fast. The NT was bigger, but the real key was Tommie Harris, who could penetrate through B gaps. So Chicago go most of their penetration inside rather than outside.
Same scheme with personnel departments filling the positions with different personnel to suit the stadium (playing field) and location.
Any scheme can play in any conditions with proper personnel fits. Buffalo’s Tampa 2 with a great penetrating 3 technique DT would have given defenses lots of problems.
But doesn't the comparison between Indy and Chicago highlight why the T2 is a bad idea in poor weather cities?
Indy was been able to play the T2 over a long period of time because they can use players that are easier to find. Chicago will continue to struggle unless they can find replacements for their big, fast LBs, which is not easy to do.
And wasn’t Stroud supposed to be Buffalo’s great 3 technique DT? Is Stroud a disappointment? Or is it Poz in the middle?
You have to pick the players that fill the scheme.
And you have to pick a scheme that fits the conditions. Most people would agree that the “greatest show on Turf” would not have been as great in say…New England. Same for the defense. You can’t deny that poor weather has a negative effect on speed. While not impossible, the T2 in Buffalo is an uphill battle. Don’t fight mother nature….use it to your advantage.
"Do you even hear how totally bat sh!t insane you sound?" - Archer
by Joe P. on Jan 26, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Indy was been able to play the T2 over a long period of time because they can use players that are easier to find. Chicago will continue to struggle unless they can find replacements for their big, fast LBs, which is not easy to do.
The ’70’s Steelers had smaller outside linebackers in their Tampa 2, playing in Pittsbrugh weather. Chicago is struggling because of injuries. There are plenty of bigger LB’s who can run and would fit the Bears scheme and weather: McClain, Weatherspoon, Muckelroy, and Navorro would all fit the scheme.
Having smaller LB’s in a sold environment has been done, and finding bigger LB’s for a Tampa 2 isn’t that hard… not like trying to find a 3-4 NT.
And wasn’t Stroud supposed to be Buffalo’s great 3 technique DT? Is Stroud a disappointment? Or is it Poz in the middle?
Stroud was never a good Tampa 2 fit. Stroud is best at stacking and shedding, not penetrating every play. That’s why he’s been worn down and hurt.
And you have to pick a scheme that fits the conditions. Most people would agree that the "greatest show on Turf" would not have been as great in say…New England. Same for the defense. You can’t deny that poor weather has a negative effect on speed. While not impossible, the T2 in Buffalo is an uphill battle. Don’t fight mother nature….use it to your advantage.
The ’90’s Bills used an offense that was fast paced despite the weather.
I just don’t buy into your premise. Too many defenses with differing personnel have been great in all kinds of weather. It’s personnel for the weather, not the scheme. For me, defense is all about personnel.
I hope you are not trying to say that the "Greatest show on Turf" and the K-Gun were the same offense
As for the rest, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
"Do you even hear how totally bat sh!t insane you sound?" - Archer
Agree to disagree
The Rams ran the verticle timing offense, otherwise known as the Coryall offense or the digit/number offense.
Buffalo’s K-Gun was based on run’n’shoot principles.
More on that in my next article. : )
But both offenses were passing offenses, and which, by your argument of schemes and weather, was a bad fit for Buffalo.
yeah and the "Perfect Storm" was "based" on actual events
Anyone old enough to remember actually watching both of them knows they were different. If they weren’t, Mike Martz would have been the most popular guy with fans to replace Jauron….but perhaps we will have that discussion later :-)
"Do you even hear how totally bat sh!t insane you sound?" - Archer
Misunderstanding
The comparison is that the K-gun Bills and the Vermeil / Martz Rams threw the balls downfield a lot. And I’m old enough, by the way. : )
Your argument:
Some defenses must be easier to run in good weather or in domes (T2), while others lend themselves to playing in the muck and snow (B-F 34, Bear 46, or 2 NT 43 systems).
A similar line of logic:
Some offenses must be easier to run in good weather and domes (Coryall, West Coast, run’n’shoot) while others lend themselves to playing in the muck and snow (the Erhardt-Perkins offense (smashmouth)).
Yet, one of the most prolific offenses in NFL history (K-gun run’n’shoot variation) was run in a cold, snowy Northern city, in the windiest stadium in the league.
Green Bay runs a true West Coast system in one of the coldest stadiums in the league, and on a grass field.
My point is this: personnel dictate defensive success, not schemes related to location. The Bills Tampa 2 didn’t fail because it was run in Buffalo. It failed because Chris Kelsay can’t get ot the QB enough to demand a chip block, Marcus Stroud is a power player and not a penetrating 3-technique, and Paul Posluszny isn’t the best choice to drop 25 yards into the deep middle of the defense.
Gailey is very much correct in stating that he’ll run what’s best for the personnel. Personnel is the key. Tom Brady ran one of the highest scoring offenses in NFL history, on grass, in a Northern city, and running the Erhardt-Perkins offense (most vanilla in terms of passing concepts). It had nothing to do with scheme or location. It was because he was great, his line was great, and his receivers were great.
Any scheme can work well anywhere with the right people.
I really don't know where the communication process is breaking down
Yet, one of the most prolific offenses in NFL history (K-gun run’n’shoot variation) was run in a cold, snowy Northern city, in the windiest stadium in the league.
Variation is the key here. I am not sure if you were around here for the no huddle vs hurry up discussion, but it reminds me of the K-gun vs the run and shoot…..not the same offense. I never said the West Coast offense couldn’t work in the cold. Again, not the same.
My point is this: personnel dictate defensive success, not schemes related to location.
Of course you have to have the correct personnel for a scheme. You yourself said that certain schemes have certain strengths and weaknesses. You admit that certain key players are more difficult to find. So while on paper you can argue that any scheme can work in any conditions with the right players, the reality of the situation is that some of the players needed to run those schemes in certain conditions are much more difficult to find. Winning in the NFL is difficult enough. Way fight an uphill battle?
"Do you even hear how totally bat sh!t insane you sound?" - Archer
Agree somewhat
In the 3-4, the hard part is finding 3 great DL. In a Tampa 2, the hard part is finding a penetrating DT and 2 good ends. In a 46 the hard part is finding 2 go DT’s and a pass rusher. Each system has players that are hard to find, or coveted by a lot of teams. If we transition to a 3-4, we maybe have one DL to run the scheme. Maybe. That scheme will fail just as the Tampa 2 did if we don’t fill it with the right players.
We’re just going to have to disagree. I have seen/researcheda great deal over the past 20 years, and it’s led me to my thoughts, which is that no scheme is permenantly dominant or better in a certain set of conditions.
The Bills K-Gun was a variation of the run’n’shoot that Kelly ran in the USFL. Three receivers run sight adjustment routes depending on the play of the opposing DB, and one receiver runs a pre-dictated route with more limited sight adjustments. The difference between the Oilers/Lions/Falcons offense and the Bills K-Gun was that Buffalo filled one of the slot receivers with a TE (McKeller- hence the name) and didn’t rely on pre-snap motion from one of the slot backs.
FYI
Chuck Knox started using the 3-4 back in “79” with Mike Kadish as his NT, the next year Smerlas was drafted and the “Bermuda Triangle” was born with Sanford, Haslette, Nelson and Robertson as the LB’s. The Bills used the 3-4 until 2001 when Williams became coach which evolved to the Tampon 2 under DJ….
As Wyatt Earp once said "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me! ~
Excellent.........
The 46 has always been a favorite of mine………but you need defensive players like the Jets have for it to work……………I wonder if ole Rexy used any 46 this year……..
Yeah, I just stare at my desk, but it looks like I'm working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too, I'd say in a given week I probably only do about fifteen minutes of real, actual, work. - Peter Gibbons
by norcaliangelsfan on Jan 26, 2010 1:17 PM EST reply actions
so which one...
…did we run last year?
Sorry if that’s a silly question, but knowledge of the defensive side of the ball isn’t my strong suite
it was a cover 2 where we favored small, slow, easily injured linebackers and talentless defensive linemen.
can’t imagine why it didn’t work.
...so I guess now I root for chan gailey...
Rec'd
Required reading…it will make the impact of the upcoming D-coordinator hiring easier to understand/critique.
"They're Killin' Me Whitey. They're Killin' Me" -- Lou Saban
Yeah, awesome post…learned a lot.Me like pictures:)
"This is what happens Larry!, This is what happens! "-Walter Sobchak
by BigEasyBillsKrewe on Jan 26, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions
I figure, draft for the O-line, and get a QB who can make some plays w/his feet until they can jell.Smith might be that option…
"This is what happens Larry!, This is what happens! "-Walter Sobchak
by BigEasyBillsKrewe on Jan 26, 2010 3:13 PM EST reply actions
Rec'd
This is a great post.
One of the biggest reasons why I like the 3-4 (always have), is the edge rushing OLB element, and I think Maybin projects well.
Another is that it is just very hard to find a dominant pass rushing 4-3 end. Look at how much money they command when you DO find one.
in a salary cap era, no single unit (offense or defense) should be consistently sub-average for such a long stretch.
Fantastic work, Der. Always intelligent, straight line, hardcore information; That’s what I’ve come to expect from you.
Delightfully Ignoring The Truth since 1995.
by NeverendingOptimism on Jan 26, 2010 3:46 PM EST reply actions
The Bear 46,morphed..
This is a Great article!.Loved the way You put it in such understandable terms for us..I would hope that we go for that 46 scheme though.It kind of leaves no place for Maybin unless He can convert to LB,but the scheme itself is really good.I’ve always thought that the bigger DE is the way to go.Not knocking Schobel,He’s a one of a kind player,but having 2 DE’s that light puts too much on the LB’s.Don’t know of any D Coordinators out there that implement that scheme but I’d like to see it here..
Never argue with an Idiot,they'll drag You down to their level and beat You with experience every time..
Bills have just hired Giff Smith as OLB’s coach, which tells you that we’re moving to the 3-4, because otherwise you wouldn’t need an OLB’s coach; you would simply just call him LB’s coach ala. Matt Sheldon.
Giff Smith was recruiting coordinator and D-line coach at Georgia Tech
"The one commonality in both places (Oakland and Buffalo) is an aging owner who keeps interfering too much. Ralph Wilson continually butts his nose in the football operation and tells the team who to draft"
by BillsfanfromDenmark on Jan 26, 2010 4:45 PM EST reply actions
Excellent Read!
You just created something that many people will be able to refer to for a long time. Good job! I’ve been a major supporter for a switch from our 4-3, Tampa 2 for awhile. Let’s man up and get some pressure on the QB. Oh ya… let’s stop the run too! =P
Schmucks don't make it to the Pro Bowl... except Jason Peters!
by Run Thurmal Run! on Jan 26, 2010 6:25 PM EST reply actions
Another example how the Bills fan base is the most informed in all of football....
Absolutely great read and extremely informative. Thanks.
That post deserves all the rec'd it gets
Schmucks don't make it to the Pro Bowl... except Jason Peters!
by Run Thurmal Run! on Jan 26, 2010 10:09 PM EST reply actions
Der Jaeger – most excellent work. I actually feel smarter for having read this piece. If you ask me, BG should start a “library” section somewhere here, with articles that are most educational, and this might me the first entry.
What a welcome addition you’ve turned out to be for Rumblings. Sincerely, I tip my hat…
There seems to be another Monte Kiffin branch...
of coaches using his philosophy before he hooked up with Dungy. Pete Carroll, Larry Coyer, and Greg Robinson (he was DC for the Broncos from ‘95-’00 and then with the Chiefs under Vermeil) used the 4-3 “under” front learned from Monte. Carroll, Coyer, and Robinson all coached for the Jets in the early 90’s.
http://www.trojanfootballanalysis.com/43_under_blitz_schemes.html
by Rome Billiever on Jan 27, 2010 12:10 AM EST reply actions
The Bengals run the 46?...
Is this influenced by Mike Zimmer (he comes from the Jimmy Johnson/Butch Davis/Dave Campo tree) or Marvin Lewis?
What did the Ravens run when Lewis was DC?
by Rome Billiever on Jan 27, 2010 12:17 AM EST reply actions
This is indeed a great post....
bring on the offensive analysis! :)
I’ve often wondered, does Gailey run a variation of Dan Reeves’ offense or is it the Perkins-Erhardt system that he learned in Pittsburgh?
by Rome Billiever on Jan 27, 2010 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
I don't know... I would bet Perkins-Erhardt based on the running emphasis
I need to do some research on that


























