3-4 Personnel, Can we be rational?OL
by ForeignArrow on Jan 27, 2010 7:37 PM EST
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PrintIt seems most people around here have wanted to switch to the 3-4 for years now. Now, there's a glimmer of hope that the Bills might actually do it and most of the comments here are along the lines of "yeeaahh BUT." If you take a gander at Buffalo's roster, the players on defense do not particularly "fit" into any one scheme (especially the zone based scheme they were already running).
Then people start saying things like "well so-and-so doesn't have the prototypical size... blah blah blah." Jay Ratliff is one of the best 3-4 NT's in the game and he's listed at 304 lbs, he might be up to 315 lbs, maximum. It's not as simple as when we were kids putting the square blocks in the square hole. The key to Buffalo being successful is going to be the coordinator of the defense, not the players. The players have the ability, but they're going to need a good teacher because I don't think there's a single player on the Bills that's played in a 3-4 before. No one's ever questioned their work ethic, so if they stay on point why would it be an "arduous" transition... it would be no more arduous than when they all arrived and started learning Perry Fewell's defense... it's not like switching from constitutional law to civil engineering... it's football.
What would Buffalo need (players-wise) to make the transition? Not all that much. Everyone gets caught up in the front 7, but the reality is that most teams don't always run a pure 3-4, they mix in 2 and 4 man lines with it as well. Stroud and Kyle Williams can play NT, but this is really the position where you want someone dominant. I'm pretty sure they can play well there, but whether or not the 2 of them can dominate is another issue. There may be guys available in FA that can be "stop-gaps," (notables are Marcus Spears, Jarvis Green, Johnny Jolly, and Julius Peppers, for the DL in general) and there are probably 2 guys in the draft that could be dominant there that the Bills have a shot at: Terrance Cody and Dan Williams. Dan Williams is more athletic and is a better football player, just not as big as Cody.
The other area of need regardless of what scheme Buffalo runs is LB. It's safer to assume that Mitchell won't be the same player again. So, it's another scenario where the Bills have to add number and skill via FA and the draft (Karlos Dansby, Shawne Maerriman, Antwan Barnes, are notables with several others). If McClain is there at #9, duh... you take him. If he's not, you can wait until the 2nd and maybe shoot for Brandon Spikes, after that you ain't gettin a starting MLB. There are plenty of ways to add the personnel that may be missing... Buffalo just needs to manage their draft and FA well enough to get some guys to OBD that can DO WORK.
Even if the Bills' D stinks next year, I will be much more entertained watching them screw up a 3-4 D than watching them make teams dink and dunk them until corneas burn off.
And BTW, if Kelsay goes back to playing at 280 lbs (as he did a couple of years ago when he was int he DT rotation) he'd probably be a decent 3-4 end. I'd still rather see his $6-7 million spent elsewhere, though. The cynicism and pessimism are seeping in, for good reason, there have been several teams to switch to a 3-4 that were worse off than the Bills are. Look at what the Packers did.... signed some FA's drafted BJ Raji and Clay Matthews, voila, their 3-4 worked pretty darn well until Kurt Warner got a hold of it.
Just another great fan opinion shared on the pages of BuffaloRumblings.com.
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The biggest concern always must be NT in a 3-4.
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Vince Wilfork is demanding big bux and that is not the Pats style but he wants to get paid…look for the Bills to spend alittle bit if they wanna turn this thing around in Ralph Wilson’s lifetime and hurt a rival at the same time maybe merriman dansby wilfork or anyone who can be the bart scott of the bills and teach the scheme
"The only yardstick for success our society has is being a champion. No one remembers anything else." John Madden
by BRIANMULHALL on Jan 27, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
Merriman will be a restricted free agent. It will cost at least a first round pick to get him.
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by MattRichWarren on Jan 28, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
that's
only if there is no new CBA, otherwise just about every single quality free agent out there will be restricted
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by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
SO in the next couple weeks they’re going to have a break through when everyone on both sides is saying it ain’t gonna happen? I’d love for that to be true, by the way.
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by MattRichWarren on Jan 28, 2010 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
hahahaha
yeah, i just don’t know if the compensation rules have changed for restricted free agents has changed for these special circumstances, if not then the CBA is irrelevant as far as FA goes
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
if Kelsay goes back to playing at 280 lbs (as he did a couple of years ago when he was int he DT rotation) he’d probably be a decent 3-4 end
Kurupt’s head just exploded.
by CanadianBillsFan on Jan 27, 2010 8:09 PM EST reply actions
Kurupt
is way too far gone on that one to even think about it
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 27, 2010 8:53 PM EST up reply actions
Nah
I don’t think we have to worry about Kelsay being a 3-4 DE…
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
This is Buffalo man, theres nothing that we shouldn’t at least worry about a little.
by CanadianBillsFan on Jan 28, 2010 3:21 AM EST up reply actions
I still dont understand y u like Kelsay so much…I’d rather see Spencer Johnson or Aaron Maybin playing ahead of him.
I hope this is sarcasm!
“like”? Ha!
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
You must not have read anything I've ever said about him....
Like isn’t a word I’d use in describing my feelings about him…
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Well…. “I don’t like Kelsay” maybe.
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by MattRichWarren on Jan 28, 2010 6:00 PM EST up reply actions
I want Dansby so bad..
can you imagine him with McClain?
"Hold ya chin up...nuh nuh nuh...gone" -Marshawn Lynch-
Dansby will be franchised. He’s said that he’s happy in Arizone and the Cards have already stated that they want him back. If they can’t work out a long term deal (again) I think that both sides would be satisfied with another franchise tag.
by CanadianBillsFan on Jan 27, 2010 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
he
wasnt too happy last year when they franchized him, so i doubt it will end as pretty this time
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 27, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions
no i never expect to get a guy like that in FA
but if you could replace Schobel with him itg would not be a big hit financially
"Hold ya chin up...nuh nuh nuh...gone" -Marshawn Lynch-
Yeah
I voted NT, figured the man in the middle gotta be important in stopping the run. Hence I’d like to see Cody fill that spot. He’s a biggin….
I also know that the NT is the most important position in the 3-4. But boy, my biggest concern would be our MLBs. They are just not big enough to handle that role.
"What in the hell have I gotten myself into?" - Bruce Smith HOF
this is what i wanted to avoid
DeMeco Ryans plays pretty well in the middle of a 3-4, he’s smaller than Poz.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 27, 2010 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
And Demeco Ryans is actually bigger than Poz too.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
haha
well, ryans may have added weight, but i wouldn’t venture to say he’s bigger than poz, cuz poz put weight on too
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
ILB in a 34 front
they have to be big enough to take on guards and ceters stack and shed …that takes the size to anchor engage and then bench press a 300+ linemen off u in order to be freed up to make the play so yea u have to be bigger in that sheme …a 43 front ilb rarely has linemn on them and if they do there linemen have failed in front of them they need to be quick and fast flowiing to make plays sideline to sideline in a 34 fornt the OLB make the edge stops and the ILB’s help clog up the middle…this isnt my idea its the way teams draft and coach
"The only yardstick for success our society has is being a champion. No one remembers anything else." John Madden
by BRIANMULHALL on Jan 27, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
Why is it that everyone thinks Poz is so small? Take a look around the league at the size of MLBers. They are generally between 5’11" and 6’3" and 230-250 lbs. Poz is practically the median of the list. He also is very active in the middle of the field and has improved throughout his career. He missed 3 games this year and put up better numbers than last year. He’s fine, that is a spot you wouldn’t have to worry about. I would love McClain on the Bills, there is nothing wrong with having a stable of good LBers.
P.S. Poz is bigger than Shane Conlan…I don’t think anyone around here has a problem with the way he manned the middle of a 3-4 Defense
You can’t think of it in terms of he is bigger than Shane Conlan. The median size of every player on the field has gotten bigger since Conlan last played. The athletes are bigger, stronger, and faster than then.
Yeah, that was basically a different era, especially for the way the 3-4 is played. Fred Smerlas and Jeff Wright were both sub-280 pound players at NT. At the time, Conlan was bigger than your average MLB.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
You’re taking my point out of context. The postscript wasn’t the point. The point is that Poz is big enough to play ILB in a 3-4 scheme. By the way, offensive lines and defensive lines have gotten bigger since the 1980s and 90s, but skill position players are generally the same size that they were 10 and 20 years ago.
Yeah
Same size,Just bigger, faster & stronger.
by buffalobacker on Jan 27, 2010 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
Ohhhh man
The key to Buffalo being successful is going to be the coordinator of the defense, not the players.
I can’t wait for some of the BPA guys to respond to this :-)
"Do you even hear how totally bat sh!t insane you sound?" - Archer
I consider myself a ‘BPA guy,’ and while I’ll go to the grave saying that players are more important than coaches, ForeignArrow is right – to make the transition to a 3-4 smooth, they’ll need a tremendous teacher in the coordinator position, as well as at every defensive positional group.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 28, 2010 5:35 AM EST up reply actions
I would take it one step further and say the same is needed for continued success.
"Do you even hear how totally bat sh!t insane you sound?" - Archer
I think one of the main concerns regarding switching to the 3-4 revolves around the offense. The offense was pretty terrible last year and needs work while the defense had some things going for it at times. If we make the transition to the 3-4, we could get guys in FA and draft players and make it work, but the offense is bound to suffer. I don’t see being able to rebuild the whole team in one year. I don’t think it should be our goal to do that, and I think switching to the 3-4 could pan out well for the Bills, I would just expect it to take longer than one season.
I voted DE
Because you can get a stop-gap NT and still generate a pass rush if your ends and linebackers play well enough. Think, fatboy space eater.
Of course you increase the potency of your front 3 with a disruptive penetrating type of NT, but as long as you set the line you are going to be OK.
in a salary cap era, no single unit (offense or defense) should be consistently sub-average for such a long stretch.
I think any comparisons of Buffalo’s transition to what Green Bay did don’t work at all. Green Bay didn’t sign a single defensive player for their front 7 in free agency. They already had Hawk, Barnett, Kampman, Chillar, Poppinga, Bishop, Pickett, Jolly and Jenkins. They had an offense that they could completely ignore because it was already one of the better units in the league. And they used their first three picks in the draft on defense, taking Raji and then trading up for Matthews. They had players lots of players who fit the scheme. Buffalo has very few players who fit. They could make defense the priority of their draft. Buffalo has a dire need for an LT and for a long term solution at QB and they won’t be able to find one of those without using early round draft picks.
The key to Buffalo being successful is going to be the coordinator of the defense, not the players
I really couldn’t disagree any more. Marvin Lewis took awhile to build a defense in Cincy. Rex Ryan has done incredibly well, but with a very talented defense and Baltimore didn’t skip a beat without him. The Giants fell apart with Spagnuolo leaving, but STL didn’t improve ….. at all. Tennessee also fell apart with Schwartz leaving, or did they fall apart with Haynesworth leaving and then a bunch of injuries? And Detroit’s D is hardly any better. Gregg Williams turned around the Saints D, although they did give up more points per game than the Bills did and had fewer turnovers too. And how many INTs does that team end up with if it’s Pierson Prioleau at FS instead of Darren Sharper?
Even if the Bills’ D stinks next year, I will be much more entertained watching them screw up a 3-4 D than watching them make teams dink and dunk them until corneas burn off.
I find the misconceptions about the Bills defense and the cover 2 to be amusing. Opposing teams completed 56.8% of their pass attempts against us last season. That was good for the third lowest total in the league.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
You're getting
carried away with those statements you’re quoting. Obviously you cannot turn the talent level of say “STL” into a top defensive unit, no matter how good of a coach you are. But there is a considerable amount of talent on Buffalo’s D… enough for a good coordinator to make a 3-4 work.
And don’t give me any jive about Buffalo’s pass defense, because it was still terrible. Playing in Buffalo will help any team’s pass defense (along with Derek Anderson throwing for 23 yards). Buffalo’s corners excelled when they were given opportunities to play man coverage. And you are also not going to give up many yards passing when you’re ranked 30th against the run. That was an infuriating scheme to watch. And how can it be a misconception if you watch the games and SEE it with your own eyes? Good riddance to that crap. I’d be just as ecstatic to get Jim Bates to run the D as a guy who would bring in the 3-4
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions
And don’t give me any jive about Buffalo’s pass defense, because it was still terrible
You honestly believe that? There were seven teams that had more INTs than TDs given up via the air. Buffalo had twice as many INTs (28) as TDs allowed (14). I pointed out their third lowest in the league in opponents completion % and they allowed the 2nd lowest yards per attempt in the league too. It was Drew Brees’ worst statistical game of the year. The Bills gave up similiar numbers to Tom Brady as the Jets did and everybody raved about how well Ryan handled Brady.
And as for the argument that playing in Buffalo was a factor (which it definitely is), I’ll respond with this ridiculous statistic (more like series of numbers): The Buffalo Bills QBs combined to have better numbers than opposing QBs put up against us. The Bills averaged 6.3 yards per pass attempt, completed 58% of their passes and had a 17/19 TD/INT ratio. The Bills defense made opposing QBs look worse than our own guys. The pass defense was spectacular this year and teams most certainly did not dink and dunk us to death.
And how can it be a misconception if you watch the games and SEE it with your own eyes?
Because people see what they want to see. A lot of people think Poz is really good. A bunch of people think that he stinks too. I don’t know if it’s a dislike for Jauron or something, but people come up with all kinds of crazy reasons to hate the Tampa 2. My personal favorite is that it’s a “reactive” defense. I also love the whole the Bills D is small argument. Because our starting 7, even with tiny Schobel and tiny Ellison is still bigger than a bunch of NFL defenses. For example, the listed weight of the Giants opening game front 7 is 9 pounds heavier than the Bills. Less than a pound per player.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Jan 28, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I love you, kaiser.
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by MattRichWarren on Jan 28, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
yes
I honestly believe that… TO’s are great, but it’s not so great when it’s the only way you can get another team off the field. And people hate the Tampa 2 because it’s easy to hate. We don’t have a pass rush to run it. And football’s an aggressive game and overall it’s not an aggressive scheme. If you like it, then fine. I just feel it’s been imposed on a group of players whose talent could have been maximized in a much better way the past few years.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
What exactly is required by you to be considered a good pass D if Pass completion % and the most INTs in the league won’t do it?
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by UZ on Jan 28, 2010 2:56 AM EST up reply actions
Ending drives
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Not all 3-4 Defenses are Created Equally
Then people start saying things like “well so-and-so doesn’t have the prototypical size… blah blah blah.” Jay Ratliff is one of the best 3-4 NT’s in the game and he’s listed at 304 lbs, he might be up to 315 lbs, maximum.
Ratliff works mostly in a 1-Gap 3-4 scheme, Wilfork in a 2-Gap. The size requirement of the NT depends on what you are asking him to do.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
what's your point?
If Buffalo has guys who can play 1 gap, then they should employ that style… a good coordinator would maximize his talent in this way.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
That was my point.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on.
by PerryTuttle22 on Jan 28, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
good point
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Why is MLB
one of the choices for our Biggest concern in a switch to a 3-4?
Doesn’t the 3-4 have ILB
and the 4-3 have MLB?
just wondering why MLB is even a choice?
There's not a wide receiver who is fast enough, that J.P. Losman can't overthrow him on a fly pattern.
by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 28, 2010 4:01 AM EST reply actions
LOL. Semantics. They’re fun.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 28, 2010 5:38 AM EST up reply actions
Wow
I wouldn’t want to belabor something like that. Good thing I put NT instead of DT, I guess… then we’d be totally lost.
"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."
"If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again."
by ForeignArrow on Jan 28, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
I couldn’t resist putting it out there :)
There's not a wide receiver who is fast enough, that J.P. Losman can't overthrow him on a fly pattern.
by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 29, 2010 1:47 AM EST up reply actions
Good thing I put NT instead of DT, I guess… then we’d be totally lost.
Good thing you did, or I would have mentioned that too, since our DT’s are better suited as DE in a 3-4 :)
There's not a wide receiver who is fast enough, that J.P. Losman can't overthrow him on a fly pattern.
by The Buffalo Kid on Jan 29, 2010 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
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