Bills Tacklers Among League's Best

For tackles, Poz is tied for 3rd in the league and Whitner owns 6th. We're pretty absent in the top 10 for all other player stats, but the Bills are the only team with two players in the top 10 for tackles.

Sidenote, given our league-worst run defense, it's not too surprising we're top 5 again in pass defense (4th - ypg).

over 1 year ago adamsam 23 comments 0 recs |

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Gailey did talk a lot about teaching and fundamentals. Maybe that’s why we have been close in a lot of games with hardly any first round picks on the field.

by Bill Frank on Dec 15, 2010 5:45 PM EST reply actions

Truth…along those lines too, Poz and Whitner both play with a relentlessness that’s noticeable – Poz seems to be everywhere and Whitner arrives hard and fierce on the ball…both fun to watch.

by adamsam on Dec 15, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions

Tackling

Thats funny because I’ve heard thats becoming a lost art regarding players. Trying to get the big hit rather than wrapping up player. Glad to hear were on other side of spectrum regarding tackling.

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by buffalobacker on Dec 15, 2010 6:16 PM EST reply actions

But

Likes been said before, we need to tackle before RB gains 10 yards! Not after!

That's A Spicey Meatball! GO BILLS

by buffalobacker on Dec 15, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions

So is it solely Poz’s or Donte’s fault that tackles are being made before that point?

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by CanadianBillsFan on Dec 15, 2010 9:42 PM EST up reply actions

??

Who’s fault? Before what point? Are you addressing me CBF? I gotta quit smoking, man! I’m so confused!!!

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by buffalobacker on Dec 15, 2010 11:15 PM EST up reply actions

haha yeah my bad

It was more of a general statement. It just fit well as a response to you.

I’m just getting tired of hearing people say that “Yeah they have a lot of tackles, but those are always ten yards down field.” Like if it was only Paul’s or Donte’s fault that the RB gained that much.

The Buffalo Bills, finding new and exciting ways to lose since January 8th, 2000.

by CanadianBillsFan on Dec 16, 2010 3:32 AM EST up reply actions

Ohh

Gotcha. No problem man! Happy Holiday’s GO BILLS!

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by buffalobacker on Dec 16, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions

And to think Poz is doing that while having missed 2 games too.

He could be leading the league in tackles if he had stayed healthy.

Oh, and this is also a notice to everyone that think Poz and Donte are only a marginal defenders that don’t deserve to be resigned: WAKE UP! NUMBERS DON’T LIE!!!!!

The Buffalo Bills, finding new and exciting ways to lose since January 8th, 2000.

by CanadianBillsFan on Dec 15, 2010 8:50 PM EST reply actions

In response I will simply copy and paste two quotes from yours truely on thi svery subject

Ever notice how the top tackler charts are littered with Bills? Poz and Whitner are up there, Dwan Edwards and Kyle Williams are up there for their position. Could it be because the Bills defense is terrible against the run and can’t get off the field quickly? Could it be because they are on the field so much that they have more opportunity to get tackles then other players?

Well lets see:

32nd in the league in rush defense. They face an average of 36.3 rushes per game the most in the league. Meanwhile Denver who is in 31st place sees 33.6, almost 3 full rushes less per game. More chances to make a tackle is going to equal more tackles. This team has already given up over 2,000 yards on the ground, the next worst (Denver) hasn’t even broken 1,750 yet.

So tell me again who is getting the job done? And why are we equating high tackle numbers with good football play?

Don’t get me totally wrong, I wouldn’t be upset seeing either or both of these guys in a Bills uni next year. But lets not kid ourselves either, this defense sucks and just saying that a guy has high tackle numbers proves that he is somehow not part of the problem isn’t exactly correct either.

and

Well again, lets look at some numbers:

- The Tennessee Titans are last in the NFL in average offensive time of possession with 25:38 and yet their run defense is ranked 22nd and they give up 30.0 rushes per game.

- The Cardinals are 31st in AOTOP with 26:02 and their run defense is ranked 30th and gives up 32.6 rushes per game.

- The Seahawks are next in AOTOP with 26:58 and a defensive ranking versus the rush of 21st. They face 28.9 runs per game.

- Carolina follows with a AVOTOP of 27:16 and they are ranked 27th against the run allowing 32.1 runs per game.

- Now it’s the Bills. Their AVOTOP is 27:21 and as we know they are 32nd against the run and see more rushes then anybody else in the NFL with 36.3.

That tells me that while I agree with you a little that the offense lack of TOP doesn’t help it isn’t a crutch either. Seattle and Tennessee are light years better then the Bills at stopping the run and their offenses stay on the field even less. To stress my point; On average the Titans offense is on the field 1:43 less then Buffalo’s. Not a big difference and you could say that it is practically the same. I would agree. HOWEVER, Tennessee has given up 1,481 rushing yards, while the Bills have given up 2,051. That is 570 yards more. These guy might be making good reads as some of you are saying, but maybe they could make that read a little sooner…like before the running back has run 10 yards.

You are right! Numbers don’t lie!

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by sireric on Dec 16, 2010 12:38 AM EST up reply actions

i agree with both you guys – numbers don’t lie, BUT it can be hard to actually tell what story they’re telling.

i think sireric’s argument has some merit – it certainly does from a qualitative standpoint – if I understand you correctly, you’re saying more plays should yield more tackles, and since the bills have one of the highest defensive-plays-from-scrimmage count, it should come as no surprise they have leading tacklers.

If that were the whole story, we should be able to get rid of the bias in the tackle-leaders numbers by simply dividing tackles by plays to come up with a more normalized index of how effective individual tacklers are irrespective of how many plays their defense sees. Turns out it’s pretty easy to do this with basic nfl.com stats.

The Bills defense does in fact see a lot more plays than most – they rank 4th in defensive-plays-from-scrimmage behind Tenn, Ari, and Sea. However, when you do the tackles/plays index thing, it doesn’t really change the tackles-leader chart too much.

(sorry, not so skilled in formatting this nicely here)

Rank (tackles/play) Rank (tackles) Player tackles/play Tackles Team
1 1 Jerod Mayo 0.172 148 NE
2 3 Chad Greenway 0.154 120 MIN
3 2 Stephen Tulloch 0.148 136 TEN
4 5 Ray Lewis 0.144 117 BAL
5 3 Paul Posluszny 0.138 120 BUF
6 9 Dhani Jones 0.135 108 CIN
7 9 Lawrence Timmons 0.134 108 PIT
8 6 Donte Whitner 0.133 116 BUF
9 7 London Fletcher 0.132 113 WAS
9 9 Patrick Willis 0.132 108 SF
10 16 Curtis Lofton 0.130 100 ATL
11 8 James Anderson 0.129 112 CAR

Poz and Whitner fall only slightly: 3 to 5 and 6 to 8. The story this is telling me is that tackles-leaders is a pretty good proxy for ‘tackles per opportunity’ leaders. While I certainly am with you in wishing these tackles came before some back busts out 10 yards, I also think we can be proud of these two for being league standouts in getting to the ball.

by adamsam on Dec 16, 2010 2:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

You know what, I'm rec'ing that!

I actually agree with Eric’s points, as they are very good as to explain why Poz and Whitner’s numbers are up. But your calculations paint an even better picture as to how much they are involved in the defense when compare to the opportunities they have. In fact I think that your numbers paint a better story than Eric or I could have.

Thanks for putting in the work, very good insight!

The Buffalo Bills, finding new and exciting ways to lose since January 8th, 2000.

by CanadianBillsFan on Dec 16, 2010 3:38 AM EST up reply actions

no problem. your original point still stands too – Poz is penalized in my calcs as they include plays from the first two games…yet, he’s still top 10. i’d take a shot at figuring out who’s got the most tackles per plays they’ve been on the field, but getting at that data for each player is a bunch more time-consuming, and well…i guess my geekdom does have its bounds :)

by adamsam on Dec 16, 2010 7:43 AM EST up reply actions

Notice how donte is the only SS up there? That means he is cleaning up a lot more junk than other teams SS. Which may mean he’s good at it. But it could also mean the front 7 absolutely stink at keeping guys out of the secondary.

by greysquirrel on Dec 16, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions

that’s an argument i buy fo sho.

by adamsam on Dec 16, 2010 2:11 PM EST up reply actions

Being tops in tackling means your defense is on the field a lot.

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by MattRichWarren on Dec 16, 2010 7:02 AM EST reply actions

not necessarily. see two comments up for support of that.

by adamsam on Dec 16, 2010 7:28 AM EST up reply actions

Aren’t tackles still an ‘unofficial’ stat not kept by the league, but by individual teams and then reported to the league?

If you look at the Jaguars, for instance, no player on the team has more than 18 assists; and only five players have double digits. However, the Bills have eight players that each have over 20 assists. Yes, the Jaguars have faced 100 fewer plays than the Bills (869-761), but that’s ridiculous.

by Krenn on Dec 16, 2010 11:35 AM EST reply actions

tackles are not an official stat. you are correct.

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by MattRichWarren on Dec 16, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions

Matt’s right, but I’m honestly not sure what the significance of “unofficial” is. Tackles don’t come from the team as far as I can find – they’re taken from the play by play that Elias Sports Bureau provides for all teams – they cover most major sports. Admittedly, it can be very subjective to determine who’s in on a tackle, but after decades of stat tracking, one would hope the subjectivity works itself out over the course of a season.

btw, you’re comparing the jags (dead last in defensive plays from scrimmage) to the bills (4th in defensive plays from scrimmage). wouldn’t you expect the bills to have more players with more tackles?

by adamsam on Dec 16, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions

Okay then, how about the Seahawks? They have more plays from scrimmage than the Bills – 891 to 869; yet have fewer tackles by a large margin – yet the Seahawks have 905 total tackles and the Bills have 1095. That discrepency is almost completely assists; the Seahawks have 191 total assists and the Bills have nearly twice that; 365.

From Advanced NFL Stats:

Each team has its own scorer for home games, who decides whether each tackle is recorded as a solo or who, if anyone, gets credited with an assist. So tackle stats are not purely objective. (This is not to suggest the scorers are biased in any way. Rather, the point is there are 32 slightly different standards for what qualifies as an assist.)

by Krenn on Dec 16, 2010 5:33 PM EST up reply actions

You make a good point about the Bills assists, and it led me to dig some more…it goes well beyond the Hawks too – the Bills are waaaay higher than anyone else on the league on average (about 1.75x the league avg for assist/play). The Skins aren’t that far behind them, but everyone else is.

So, to eliminate the mystery behind that assists outlier, let’s look at just regular tackles. Turns out the Bills are pretty much right inline with the league average when it comes to tackles/play (.84 to the avg of .83, where the stddev is .03).

When we look at the league tackle leaders for just tackles (eliminating assists), and adjust for the fact that some teams play more defensive plays (by taking tackles/plays), the top 15 looks like this:

(again, apologies for my formatting deficiencies)

Rank (pure-tackles/play)/ Rank (combined tackles)/ Player/ Tackles/play/ Tackles/ Team
1 3 Chad Greenway 0.118 92 MIN
2 1 Jerod Mayo 0.113 97 NE
3 16 Curtis Lofton 0.108 83 ATL
4 5 Ray Lewis 0.106 86 BAL
5 2 Stephen Tulloch 0.103 95 TEN
6 8 James Anderson 0.101 88 CAR
6 9 Patrick Willis 0.101 83 SF
7 12 Brian Urlacher 0.098 80 CHI
8 3 Paul Posluszny 0.096 83 BUF
9 12 T.J. Ward 0.095 81 CLE
9 9 Dhani Jones 0.095 76 CIN
9 9 Lawrence Timmons 0.095 76 PIT
10 23 Karlos Dansby 0.094 76 MIA
11 12 D.J. Williams 0.093 80 DEN
12 32 James Laurinaitis 0.092 75 STL
12 18 Derrick Johnson 0.092 77 KC
13 6 Donte Whitner 0.089 77 BUF
14 19 Bernard Pollard 0.086 71 HOU
15 24 Takeo Spikes 0.085 70 SF
15 7 London Fletcher 0.085 73 WAS
15 49 Craig Dahl 0.085 69 STL

It certainly does make a difference as we see some folks from the combined tackles rankings in the 20s, 30s, and even #49 make it into the play-adjusted pure-tackle rankings. Our boys slip a bit, but good ol Poz is still top 10 and Donte’s not too far behind.

I certainly don’t think these stats are the end-all be-all when it comes to ranking a player’s worth in this league, but I think the original point stands – Poz and Whitner are having standout seasons relative to the rest of the defensive players in the league. Now, please stop that run guys. Go Bills!

by adamsam on Dec 16, 2010 8:16 PM EST up reply actions