Don't expect O-Line to be huge priority in Buffalo
McIntosh, Garmon, Ball, Raymer, Page, Bogle, Parker and Van Buren. That was the San Diego Chargers' 2003 offensive line. They ended the season with a major dissapointment of a young quarterback (Drew Brees), and a stud WR they had just signed in free agency (David Boston) managed to be an equally monumental disappointment. Their offensive line was in shambles, but the Chargers had a running back excel despite having awful starters along the OL; those awful starters then got hurt, and were replaced by other awful starters. Sound familiar?
I had a comment awhile back about how the Giants are kind of considered the gold standard for developing a QB behind a good OL, but their line was a total mess when they drafted Eli Manning. Considering that GM Buddy Nix did something similiar to that at his last job, I thought I'd fill everybody in on the situation surrounding the drafting of Philip Rivers and the building of the Chargers' offensive line. So maybe their RB (LaDainian Tomlinson) was a little better than Fred Jackson is (a 24-year-old Tomlinson ran for 1,683 yards, 13 TDs while catching an unbelievable 100 passes for 725 yards and 4 TDs), but that shows how bad of a year Brees had in his second season by averaging under six yards per pass attempt.
You thought Trent Edwards checked down a lot? San Diego's running back caught 100 freaking passes. And maybe David Boston had a slightly better year than Terrell Owens by catching 70 passes for 880 yards and 7 TDs, but he was causing issues in the locker room, then blew out his knee in Week 15 and basically never played again. Lines can clearly be drawn. That was a Chargers team that went an abysmal 4-12.
Onto the OL: San Diego went into the 2003 season with the following five players making up their starting offensive line. The number you see after each name indicates the number of NFL starts each player made during the season.
Damion McIntosh - 13
Kelvin Garmon - 16
Jason Ball - 8
Solomon Page - 13
Vaughn Parker - 3
That's a combined 53 of 80 possible starts from their OL, which is actually closer to Buffalo than I would have guessed, as the Bills got 52 starts from their line. The Chargers had a solid backup in Cory Raymer start the eigh games at center that Ball couldn't. Phil Bogle, whoever the hell that is, made the only 13 starts of his career. Rookie RT Courtney Van Buren made seven starts, and Bob Hallen, Ed Ellis and Michael Keathley made one or two starts as well. The 11 different players who made starts on the OL is the exact same number as the Bills had this past season.
In the free agency portion of the 2004 offseason, San Diego made a number of moves, most of which were subtractions. Buffalo-born and St. Joe's grad Vaughn Parker was released after 10 years with the team. Damion McIntosh was a free agent, and San Diego let him look elsewhere. He took a six-year, $21 million contract in Miami. Solomon Page and Kelvn Garmon, both mediocre players and UFAs, weren't retained and went to Detroit and Cleveland, respectively. That's four starters that weren't even brought back, leaving the team with center Jason Ball as the only returning week one starter. The Chargers also had rookie RT Courtney Van Buren entering his second season, and 2002 second-rounder, Tonui Fonoti returning from an injury that forced him to miss 11 games of the 2002 season and the entire 2003 season. (He also struggled with weight issues from all the time that he couldn't work out.) There was one big free agent addition though. Mike Goff was given a five-year, $13.5 million contract. He had started the previous four years in Cincinnati and was a key part of some solid seasons from Corey Dillon. Leander Jordan, a backup tackle, was also added.
San Diego went into the draft with a projected line of the following (with extremely suspect depth):
LT: Gaping hole / Leander Jordan
LG: Toniu Fonoti
C: Dave Ball
RG: Mike Goff
RT: Courtney Van Buren
They had holes all over the roster, including QB (again, nobody knew Brees was any good), WR and basically, the entire defense. 2004 was as interesting of a draft as you can find.
The similarities between San Diego and Buffalo go beyond what the roster looks like. Bills fans are beyond tired of being told that players and coaches don't want to come here, but imagine having the first overall pick and the guy at the top of your draft board, who happens to be a QB with the last name Manning, doesn't want to be drafted first overall because he wants nothing to do with your organization. Eli and Archie Manning were very open and honest about their unwillingness to go to San Diego. The Chargers took Manning anyway, in what was likely a predetermined deal with the Giants that just needed some hammering out. They got quite a haul in the trade, including Philip Rivers. In the second round, with offensive lineman Jake Grove and Justin Smiley available, the Chargers took defense and a guy who many thought would go in the first round, Igor Olshansky. The Chargers finally addressed the OL in the third round with the selection of center Nick Hardwick.
The next big move that San Diego made to fix the OL was to trade for a very experienced, but average OT and gave up a fifth round pick for Roman Oben. They made the trade on draft day and used a pick they got from the Giants. Oben had been a starter his whole career playing for the Giants, Browns and Bucs. But Oben was always an afterthought, and actually signed with Tampa Bay for the veteran minimum and wasn't guaranteed a starting spot. He did win that spot and then won a Super Bowl, but he was definitely a mediocre player.
San Diego finished up the draft with a pass rusher (Shaun Phillips) in the fourth, a 3-4 DE (Dave Ball) and RB (Michael Turner) in the fifth, a TE (Ryan Krause) in the sixth, and another 3-4 DE (Ryon Bingham) in the seventh before finally addressing the OL depth. San Diego took a 6'3'' RT from Ohio State who some had projected to go much higher because he was a great player in college, but slid due a lack of size. That player was Shane Olivea and he was taken with the 209th pick in the draft.
So without a first or second round pick and without a huge free agent contract, San Diego was able to overhaul their OL. Hardwick beat out Ball in training camp and Olivea surprised in a big way, beating out Van Buren. The Chargers had five new OL starters with Oben, Fonoti, Hardwick, Goff and Olivea. The new line made 78 starts, with only Hardwick missing a pair of games. San Diego went 12-4 with a spectacular 27 TD, 7 INT season from Brees, as Antonio Gates emerged from nowhere to catch 81 balls for 964 yards and 13 TDs.
While the improvement along the OL was a big factor in SD's 2004 success, the housecleaning from the previous off-season wasn't over. Fonoti was a pretty big disappointment returning from injury. He didn't even make the 2005 team, as an undrafted player from the 2003 draft class beat him out for the spot. That player continued to develop and is now Pro Bowl guard, Kris Dielman. 2003 third-rounder Courtney Van Buren barely made the team and was released without ever playing another down in SD. Their replacements weren't big names or top prospects, as SD focused on defense and playmakers in the 2005 draft. With stud OT Jammal Brown still available, they took Shawne Merriman and then Luis Castillo in the first. Vincent Jackson was drafted in the second, Darren Sproles was the pick in the fourth and then SD went after OL depth in the later rounds, taking OT Wesley Britt in the fifth, OG Wes Sims in the sixth and OC Scott Mruczkowski in the seventh.
It wasn't until the 2006 draft that San Diego put the finishing touches on their OL overhaul. Oben was declining with age and had missed about half of the 2005 season, leaving LT as a major need. But they didn't let that force them into a corner. Bills fans may remember talks of Winston Justice, the USC LT, being a possibility with the eighth pick. They were one of many teams to pass on him come draft day. He was already sliding when the Chargers passed on him to draft Antonio Cromartie, and he ended up in a complete freefall before Philly took him. It was in the second round that San Diego found their LT with Auburn's Marcus McNeill.
The Chargers put together an offensive line, essentially from scratch, in a very short period of time. They didn't do it with top-of-the-line free agents. They didn't pass on a QB or talented defenders to build it either. San Diego is proof that there is no one way to build an offensive line. When Buffalo is on the clock in a few months, I hope they draft whichever player adds the most to this team over the life of his five-year rookie contract and not whoever the best player at the biggest position of need is. Maybe that guy is an offensive lineman, but the Bills won't rule out a QB based on how bad the OL is. Buddy Nix's old team was smart enough to worry about the ability of the QB and not the situation he was walking into, and that's how Buffalo will approach this off-season.
Oh, and in what will be explained in an article to follow, San Diego also switched to a 3-4 that offseason.
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Irresponsible
If OBD does not address the offensive line this would just be blatantly irresponsible. We are a team without any kind of left tackle and no real answer at right tackle. While we have good starting quality and depth at the guard/center spot, we have little talent and depth at the crucial tackle position. To ignore these glaring deficiencies would be amazing and put us back to square one.
What was done historically on another team, by another general manager (remember Nix was NEVER the GM), He NEEDS to address the tackle position, if he refuses to do so, I hope we would all be upset.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 8:37 AM EST reply actions
Yeah. That’s exactly what he said – that we should just wholly ignore the O-Line.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 8:51 AM EST up reply actions
We need to make the o-line a priority, if we don’t, we are ignoring it! See Michael Oher from last year.
And I also think we should stop this fixation with what was done in San Diego by GM’s other than Nix. Remember Nix was NEVER the GM there, seems like we are grasping at straws a little for some fodder these days on trying to presume what Nix will do in Buffalo.
I am giving Nix a clean slate. Obviously this guy knows how to evaluate talent, but to try to guess at what draft picks should/should not be attributed to him, or what drafting strategy he had is a huge assumption at this point.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 9:37 AM EST up reply actions
No one’s trying to attribute Nix anything. But it’s not like he flat-out ignored what went on. He’s going to apply what worked and what didn’t, and that plan of attack clearly worked for San Diego.
And again – the article was NOT about the O-Line receiving zero priority. Just not the HIGHEST priority.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
OK… Let me be crystal clear: The offensive line needs to be priority 1.
“Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth”
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
I completely agree. However, what this team also desperately needs is a franchise QB and a NT, so we can go in a lot of different directions with the first pick.
If Bradford or Clausen aren’t available, which I don’t think they will be, I say we draft Bryan Bulaga and use the draft picks we’ve gained from trading Marshawn and/or Donte to trade up into the first round and acquire Dan Williams. As far as QB, we would probably have to settke for somebody like Pennington for a year and then figure out what options might be available in trades.
"The one commonality in both places (Oakland and Buffalo) is an aging owner who keeps interfering too much. Ralph Wilson continually butts his nose in the football operation and tells the team who to draft"
by BillsfanfromDenmark on Feb 15, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Gotcha. At least now I know that you read the article and are completely denying its logic. I didn’t get that sense before.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
I did, but it is hard
It is hard to read the articles in small windows and have to minimize and maximize them every 5 seconds… I can’t let everyone know I am not working on a Monday morning!
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
LOL :)
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
The offensive line needs to be priority 1.
That’s where we disagree. The quarterback situation is the number one priority. A great QB and average OL is going to do better than an average QB and great OL, especially if our playmakers on offense don’t improve or aren’t upgraded. Fixing the offensive line is necessary too. The article was about how San Diego fixed their OL without attempting to do it overnight with big contracts and early picks. Buffalo most definitely needs to improve things along the line and find a LT, but using their first rounder this spring on that position isn’t the only solution.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
maybe
Buffalo most definitely needs to improve things along the line and find a LT, but using their first rounder this spring on that position isn’t the only solution.
But it is the option with the best odds of making the O-line a dominant unit.
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
No argument there. But finding a NT in the first (say they trade down) or drafting McClain might be the quickest way to a great run D. Or if there was a stud OLB available there, it could be the best way to build up the type of pass rush that makes Brady look like Edwards. Or maybe a WR could turn Evans and Nelson into one of the best groups of skill players in the league and Buffalo could find a QB to come in and be Matt Schaub with great weapons and a mediocre OL.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
We have tried it that way for how many years (excluding last year)?
I don’t think the Bills can fix it all at one time, so my vote is to fix the O-line.
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
I think the 1st round pick should be
For whatever they deem is the best palyer for this team. Hopefully the BPA and biggest need will mesh, but if not, I will always vote for BPA. Just an example, Jason Fox from Miami has never given up a sack in his career. He will probably be availalbe in the 3rd round for us due to injury just like Cromartie was for SD. I personally want Bradford or Baluga, but if the Nix briantrust decides Morgan. McClain, or Dan Williams is the man, I am all for it. We need great not good palyers on this team!
by The Irishman on Feb 15, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Beautifuuly said
The thing with having a crappy but young offensive line is that they are going to improve. Rookie years for OLmen are always shaky thats to be expected. The reason why it shouldnt be Priority 1 is the fact that the guys the Bills have will improve. If they get a big name LT who could mentor the guys more in freeagency or a stud in the draft, thats awesome. But QB is Priority 1 hands down.
by gatorempire127 on Feb 15, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm… Name a FA LT? There just aren’t any good ones out there that are available.
Historically throwing a rookie QB behind a flimsy O-Line hasn’t been that productive. The rookie QBs who suceed have at least decent O-lines (Flacco, E. Manning, etc.). Bad O-lines and rookie QBs are doomed to fail (David Carr, Alex Smith [1st time around], etc.).
Let’s fix our O-line problem than go get our franchise QB. Or better yet, let’s draft a quality tackle than go out and get a QB via trade (Vick, McNabb, Campbell, Girard, etc.). There are a lot of QBs available.
Wait… Maybe someone is willing to trade us a 26-year old Pro Bowl Tackle! Someone would have to be pretty crazy to do that!
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
The rookie QB and good OL thing is mostly true, but I don’t think it’s as rock solid of a history as most people think. It’s a long list of rookies who were drafted by teams with huge issues along the OL, but either succeeeded despite them, or the OLs were improved before they got killed. Eli Manning is a good example of that. The Giants had a terrible OL in 2003 too. They did have a decent LT in Luke Petigout though. Rest of their OL stunk other than David Diehl who was still an unknown. In 2004, The Giants started a rookie RG (who ended up being stud Chris Snee), Jason Whittle and a Hang type FA (who did end up being better than Hang in Shaun O’Hara) and that was the line they put Eli Manning behind as a rookie. Granted, the line worked out fairly well and then got even better when they gave Kareem McKenzie a huge contract and Rich Seubert revived his career. But the Giants didn’t build an OL and then draft a QB like the Ravens did with Flacco.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
Spot On
If you get a shot at Bradford you HAVE to take it ! I’m sick of hearing “Next years QB class is better” We seem to hear that EVERY SINGLE year from people. Who is to say if Mallet and Locker will still look good come next years draft. At some point you need to take your shot on a QB – I just hope it’s this year if Bradford is within range ! Clausen – not so sure, but I would not exactly look for the nearest tall bridge without side railings if we took him at 9.
"Fan ?" You want to talk about being a fan of the Bills ? Try getting up at 3 AM every Monday to watch their games knowing they'll likely lose. Do this for 18 years and then call yourself a "fan"
We need to make the o-line a priority, if we don’t, we are ignoring it! See Michael Oher from last year.
What about the fact that in last years draft and FA we managed to acquire to potential future building blocks along the O line? I’m I don’t really see how anyone can say we ignored the O line last year.
We did not aquire a tackle, futhermore we traded our starting LT and released our starting RT.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
I’m probably on an island in feeling that the o-line isn’t as horrible as everyone thinks it is. The injuries were a HUGE problem, so we don’t even know what the original line would have been like. I do feel LT is a priority for us, but the rest of the line I don’t think is that horrible. I hope we keep Incognito, especially if Wood isn’t going to be ready to go. But Butler coming back and giving us a capable RT will help a lot too. Having two terrible tackles killed us, but the middle I’m relatively confident in.
Like I said, I’m probably on an island with that feeling though….
by Posluszny Pollocks on Feb 15, 2010 8:45 AM EST reply actions
I agree with you
We have some good pieces in place and likely just need an upgrade on the LT along with depth all along the line.
I like Gailey
It is pretty bad… Give me the starting LT, RT, and C for next year?
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
LT – Needs an upgrade, like I said
C – Hang
RT – Butler
by Posluszny Pollocks on Feb 15, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Butler is not a quality RT; we should not just slot him in and think everything is fine. I would much rather see him at RG, Wood (hopefully sooner than later) at C and Hang as a quality reserve G/C.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
actually I think Butler is a quality RT – he just needs to stay healthy
Hello - thanks for reading my signature. It's very interesting. Bye
by J2 on Feb 16, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
I’m probably on an island in feeling that the o-line isn’t as horrible as everyone thinks it is.
Nope – I’m with you.
I could be on board with that....
If LT wasn’t such a huge problem, and injuries to Wood and Butler weren’t such big question marks. If those two were healthy and we had an average or mediocre LT, I would definitely fully agree with you. Unfortunately, with that many question marks, it’s hard to say the OL isn’t in terrible shape. I do fully agree that it’s not as terrible as some make it out to be. There are some nice pieces in place and if those injury question marks can be cleared up, we’ll have a much better looking group, at least on paper.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
O line
I truly believe if we resign incognito and draft a left tackle we will have a dominant line by year end.
by wab2 on Feb 15, 2010 9:04 AM EST via mobile reply actions
If you read Brian’s article carefully it would suggest that Nix, based on what happened in SD, would be more likely to give the existing talent at OT (i.e., Butler, Bell, Meredith, Scott, Ramsey) a chance to develop and see what they can do, while perhaps drafting one more OT in the middle rounds. Everyone is writing off last year’s OT’s way too fast. ALL of them except Scott (who was probably the weakest of the five) were making their first starts ever at OT in the NFL, and all of them were struck down by injuries at various points in the season. It’s way too early to give up on them — at least until cut-down time next August.
Fans tend to get highly impatient and expect players to excel instantly, when in reality those at a difficult-to-learn position like LT need a couple of NFL seasons to reach their potential. An experienced GM like Buddy Nix knows this in his bones and therefore will likely not do what so many posters on this thread want him to do unless he is convinced that one of the OT’s available in the first round is truly special and a better value than the options available at other positions of need.
Kaisertown’s article. :)
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Happens alot
That is what is great about the staff here at rumblers. All of Them.
This is like dumping a new puzzle from it's box. Now let's start putting the peices together. I guess this is what we all asked for.
Agree
Nix and Gailey have far more to work with than Butler/Smith and Schottenheimer did on the OL.
Bell (current version) = McIntosh
Levitre >>>> Garmon
Hangarnter > Ball
Wood >>>> Page
Butler = Parker
Meredith > Charger depth.
The Chargers took Manning anyway, in what was likely a predetermined deal with the Giants that just needed some hammering out
If it was pre-determined they would have traded before the draft.
The Chargers knew the Giants preferred Manning and played chicken, including drafting Manning and holding onto him, to get what they wanted to move down.
—
I think the headline was a little misleading. I don’t think the OL isn’t a priority for OBD, it’s just not something that necessarily will be addressed in the first couple rounds of the draft.
The draft doesn’t end after the first round, but if you don’t fill your biggest hole with that pick people get up in arms.
I think the headline was a little misleading. I don’t think the OL isn’t a priority for OBD, it’s just not something that necessarily will be addressed in the first couple rounds of the draft.
To kaisertown’s credit, I changed the headline on him.
And I included the word “huge” for a reason, because I think, clearly, that no one’s under the delusion that the line won’t be addressed. We’ve just seen a lot of “OL should be addressed before we get a QB” arguments lately, and Nix’s upbringing indicates that those folks might be disappointed.
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with you on the Manning thing. “Predetermined” probably wasn’t the right word to use because they didn’t have a deal worked out ahead of time. What I meant was that they had already decided to trade Eli by the time they drafted him and they most likely already knew that it would be to the Giants. The details were the only thing left to work out.
I think you could make an argument that NT is Buffalo’s biggest hole and I think the argument that QB is the biggest position of need is a very easy one to make.
Maybe the headline would read better if it said “don’t assume” instead of “don’t expect”? That’s really what I was going for, that it’s not a forgone conclusion that Buffalo goes out and spends a huge percentage of their offseason resources on the OL.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
I think you could make an argument that NT is Buffalo’s biggest hole and I think the argument that QB is the biggest position of need is a very easy one to make.
I think that’s the best way to say it.
QB is easily the biggest need
And that’s not to discount how big of a need NT and LT and LB are….
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
we shall see
I am also in the boat that the O line was decent before the injuries, and would have developed well. My comment lies in what Nix and Chan want. As of right now we know very little. They might have a plan similar to what Kaisertown spoke of above. They might scrap and trade away what we think is good talent. A LT is a must, but that doesn’t mean it’s our first pick. I’m guessing they want one that is mobile and agile if we are going to see a Chan offense similar to KC’s when he was there. My other guess is that Trent is done, he doesn’t seem to move well and make an intermediate throw. Both attributes that lend to his dismissal. Cut ’em.
Is there any truth the rumor that Trent had his sister move to Buffalo and they live together?
MVP
Not saying Trent is anywhere near an MVP player. All I’m saying is the when the Bills started 5 – 1 Trent Edwards what in the MVP talks early in the season. He has it in him to be a good QB, he just needs a good line, and some confidence. I say he gets another chance to at least compete for the spot.
by Blobillsfootball on Feb 15, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
trent
i bet trent is the man, even if we go qb in round one, trent was fine until the line gave out in week 4
Another similarity from Kaisertown's report
Brees sucked until the 2004 season. After the 2003 season, he was almost in the same exact position as Edwards is now.
Yeah, it’s tough to describe how bad Brees was in 2003. Tomlinson catching 100 passes and Brees still only completing 57.6% of his passes is as close as I can come.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
I can def see Edwards as starter next year
And I wouldn’t be disappointed at all.
The points about Brees are interesting, to say the least.
by StroudFanClub on Feb 15, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not an Edwards supporter or detractor
But patience is definitely the best quality for an organization to have with QB’s
Patience...not gonna happen here...
until said QB starts winning. I, personally, am okay with whoever Chan puts out there for the most part; he is a capable coach so I will give him and whoever he chooses to start the reins to my undying hope.
by NorCal BillsFan on Feb 16, 2010 5:34 AM EST up reply actions
Looking at how good Brees is now and how bad he was then is really surreal.
But, then again, Fouts, Moon, Bradshaw, etc., all sucked for years before they got better.
All but LT
What I notice is it’s easier to mind interior linemen later in the draft and maybe RT, but where they did spend a high round pick was on LT. I agree with this article, value superseeds need with all needs considered.
As far as this draft, I don’t think the two QBs this come close to Manning and Rivers, let alone Brees when he came out of Purdue. The LT are a better value in the 1 rd with the talent dropping off considerably.
If OBD feels another position is prudent but, I believe there are potential impact players on D in rounds 2-5, than O players. This article just shows that having a definite gameplan and draft strategy when followed works, regardless of popularity. We can see that Nix has brought this to Buffalo with the hiring of Gailey. I just hope they keep it up. Their popularity will increase with time, and a little success I suppose.
by audthoughts on Feb 15, 2010 9:45 AM EST via mobile reply actions
What I notice is it’s easier to mind interior linemen later in the draft and maybe RT, but where they did spend a high round pick was on LT
Yeah, that’s very true. There aren’t many successful LTs who weren’t first round picks. The elite QBs have done fine with guys like Charlie Johnson and Jermon Bushrod, but we don’t have a Peyton Manning or Drew Brees on the team. Donald Penn and our former superstar LT, Jason Peters are out there too, but almost everybody who starts at LT is a 1st or 2nd round pick. I did find it interesting that San Diego went with a patch-work type player in Roman Oben for a couple years and then still passed on Jamaal Brown before finally drafting their LT in the 2nd round of the 2006 draft though.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
Optimistic googles
Look, I really think you guys are kidding yourselves that our O-line is in that good of shape. To me Hangartner was a disappointment… He will be a great depth guy, but shouldn’t start. We do not have a proven quality tackle on the team, MAYBE Bell turns into a decent RT, but that is a question right now.
As I see it we have the following:
LT – ?
LG – Levitre
C – Hang (for now) then Wood (hopefully)
RG – Butler (that’s right, he didn’t do that well at RT last year and is a much better RG.
RT – ?
So basically we have holes at all the premium O-line positions (LT, RT, and C). Maybe Wood fills the Center spot, but we have no idea.
The fail to address the O-Line as priority #1 is a mistake.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 9:46 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Again, I agree. Our O-line is in shambles and if Buddy doesn’t recognize that incontrovertible fact by addressing it either in FA or in the draft, I think he’ll regret it later on. To me, the ONLY way we don’t pick the best OT on the board at 9 is if either Bradford or Clausen is available. If not, then Okung, Bulaga or Anthony Davis should be the choice.
"The one commonality in both places (Oakland and Buffalo) is an aging owner who keeps interfering too much. Ralph Wilson continually butts his nose in the football operation and tells the team who to draft"
by BillsfanfromDenmark on Feb 15, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
o-line holes
i think butler graded well in the two games before hitting the IR,
LT – first to tthird round pick
LG – Levitre
C – Hang until wood returns
RG – Incognito
LT – Butler
This is a line that can run in January, i think incognito, wood and butler are all strong run blockers.
The most important thing for this regime is to get first year starters in rounds one thru three. If you go back ten years we always reach in the first three rounds. We need three sure fire starters. I would like to trade up for either Okung or one of the D tackles or trade down for McClain. We need rookie impact players not projects. I would love to see an article about the games played by our first three rounds of draft picks over even the last five years. Last year was the first decent draft I can remember (even with maybin not playing). Just imagine if we would have got a first year contributor instead of maybin.
First off, rookie LTs are a risky proposition… Secondly, these are typically first half of first round kind of guys… You can’t count on finding a starting LT in the second/third rounds.
Also, while Buler wasn’t terrible at RT, he wasn’t good either. We hopefully will have better options there. Plus Butler played RG very well.
Also I think the odds of Incognito imploding are better than 50/50; let’s be realistic, we cannot just slot that guy in either.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Was Butler really “not good”? He played in a game and a half and those 6 quarters happened to be the best the OL played all season.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
I happen to think Butler was very good at RT before the injury
He was a solidifying force and a big part of what was going to be a good rushing attack. We really missed having him healthy.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Agreed, he and Wood really were able to maul that right side…
I was born in Buffalo, and NO, it's not a suburb of New York City
Maybe I am the only one that sees it. I will make another prediction (I won’t remind everyone of my previous one).
Butler will never be anything more than a below-average RT.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
What was your other prediction?
That Langston Walker couldn’t cut it at LT?
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
You said it… And that we would have the worst O-line in the league last year… And that we shouldn’t count on Bell at LT (although the last two could be directly related to injuries).
I was wrong about Hang, I thought he would become a pro-bowl type center… I now think he is average at best.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
You weren't exactly making groundbreaking predictions there.....
Nearly everyone (outside of OBD) could see Walker not being a viable LT option.
Nobody should have expected Bell to all of sudden go from major project to legit LT overnight either.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Well, the Walker prediction wasn't completely obvious, IMO
From all reports, Walker had played well at right tackle the prior year, and if an NFL team is confident enough with the decision to not even bring in another option…..they know better than me (hopefully) so it was a somewhat bold prediction to say he wouldn’t work there at all.
by StroudFanClub on Feb 15, 2010 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
As a LT it wasn't bold at all....
especially in a no-huddle approach.
If he had remained at RT, it would have been bold to say he couldn’t cut it there any longer….
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Actually I was blasted MULTIPLE time for my beleif that Walker could not man the left side. I can’t really remember one person who agreed with me.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
I never thought Walker could handle LT
I don’t remember you talking about Walker until after he was released, or right before that when it was obvious he wasn’t cut out for it….
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
I am to lazy to look up my comments, but I questioned Walker at LT and Bell at RT
I remember saying Bell wouldn’t be ready and should only be a depth player and I didn’t think the Butler/Walker combo on the left side should be split up, as it was the only part of the line that didn’t suck. I also wasn’t drinking the Hang Kool Aid.
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
I’ll stand up for J here. I remember him not liking Walker to LT at all. I don’t remember him getting killed for it though. I like some thought that Walker could have handled himself okay, maybe not great, but that as a stop gap type player until Bell was ready he would be close to adequate. He was released before we could find out if either of us was right however….
No weekend spent pantsless is a wasted weekend.
I got SLAMMED, ask Brian… I was like a dog backed into a corner.
I agree with sireric, they never really allowed Walker to play, although I think it can be safely assumed that he couldn’t have played the position, I can’t imagine why they would have released him otherwise.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
I think you got slammed because you wouldn't shut up about it after he was released....
amiright?!?!?!
:)
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Well yeah, I got yelled at both times… People were very harsh on my prediction so I HAD to point out how correct I was ;)
I also called the fact that they would draft Levitre, but that was mostly dumb luck.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
BTW
My predictions include:
Round #1; Pick 11
Michael Oher – Tackle – Mississippi State
We NEED a LT with the void we have created by trading Peters. There are only 4 players who can step in and play left tackle right away and Oher is the 4th best. He might not be able to step in right away, but could play RT for a period of time while Langston Walker plays LT and then switch when it becomes painfully obvious that Walker is not athletic enough to play LT against the better pass rushers.
Andrew Levitre – Guard – Oregon State
NOTE: the Bills will NOT draft Alex Mack. He is much better suited to play Center and the best offseason signing was Hangartner. Hangartner will man Center this year, period. Leviter is slightly undersized but plays big and mean. Based on what Geronimo said, he fits the profile the Bills are looking for.
What I don’t think the Bills will do:
1) Draft a LB or DE at pick #11
2) Draft Alex Mack
3) Draft Max Unger
4) Move up to get Andre Smith
5) Draft a RB or WR
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
What I said about the O-line last year
In response to Geronimos post:
really like Wood, and I like Levitre and Hangartner. But I disagree whole-heartedly that Langston Walker is a MORE than capable LT, I also like Butler, but am concerned at his play at RT.
I think we must have realistic expectations this year. Realistically we are playing with a career journeyman at Center, two rookie guards, a guy at right tackle who hasn’t played tackle in the NFL, and one of the worst left tackles in the game (in my opinion of course). This line could evolve into a good line in a couple years, assuming with fix the gaping hole at LT, but right now, even optimistically we are in the bottom third of OL’s in the NFL, realistically probably in the bottom quarter, and pesimistically in the bottom 2 or 3. Just calling it like it is.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Do you want a cookie?
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Nope just a little cred from the Rumblings crowd, but that won’t happen.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
I remember J being the most vocal ofalot of people saying that Walker was not up to being an NFL left tackle
and alot of people, myself included, saying ok he wont be going to the pro bowl, but he will do an adequate job there until Bell is ready to take over. For some reason we trusted that jauron et al knew what they were doing! I can’t think why
The past is fixed, the future is unknown, try dealing with the present!
by gregeng on Feb 16, 2010 1:43 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks Greg, I appreciate it!
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 16, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Here is the point that you are either missing or ignoring –
There are ways to fix the o-line that do not involve passing on very good talent at other positions, (like defense) just to fill holes on the o-line. The Bills can in fact fix the o-line without drafting a OT in the first 3 rounds, which is very contrary to the opinion of many around here. Many around here would pass on a potential elite talent in a guy like Rolando McClain in favor of a offensive tackle. The point that I took from this is that the Bills can make fixing the o-line priority #1 as you say, but that doesn’t mean they are going to use a 1st or even 2nd round pick on a offensive lineman.
No weekend spent pantsless is a wasted weekend.
Yeah
We can pass on a quality tackle (Oher) and select a project player with immense talent whom won’t see the field (Maybin).
If we do find a quality LT (Peters), we can then turn around and trade him.
Then we can try to fill the void with an unathletic RT (Walker) and then realize that didn’t work and release him (instead of putting him back at RT), and create voids at both tackle positions.
Then we can go forward and not address these needs and the fact that we have little to no depth.
Sounds like a plan that historically has worked!
I feel we need to take a tackle with our first round pick. This assumes that Nix beleives one of the tackles is “close” to the value of that pick. We can’t ignore the O-line anymore. We see where it got us this year.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
Did Nix do any of that? He is the one calling the shots now, and since he didn’t run the draft last year, or make many if any personnel decisions your statements here are irrelevant. If you are dead set on the fact that this team HAS TO DRAFT AN OT IN THE FIRST ROUND OR WE ARE DOOMED TO SUCK FOR A CENTURY!!!!!!!! Well then……okay fine have it your way, I will just disagree with your crazed logic.
No weekend spent pantsless is a wasted weekend.
I don't know, did he
I know you guys all have this “Nix was under contract but must have hid in the back room somewhere” idea.
Let’s not forget… If you want to give Nix credit for what he “did” in San Diego he must get credit for what he “did” as an employee of the Buffalo Bills last year.
He was part of OBD during all these decisions!
Actually that wasn’t what I was arguing, but I had another opportunity to make that point. Again, I know you guys will say something like… Yeah the Bills paid him to do nothing and he did nothing…
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Actually that wasn’t what I was arguing, but I had another opportunity to make that point.
Yeah congrats. You took another opportunity to take one point and spin it into something else entirely… well done.
I am sure Nix had his input, I never said he didn’t and you suggesting that I did or will is you just spewing nonsense. The point I was making is that Nix wasn’t the final decision maker, just like you point out that he wasn’t the final decision maker in SD. The point, which again you may have missed in your attempt to drudge up you dislike for the Peters trade yet again, is that Nix was part of a team that put a winning method in place, and he no doubt learned from that. While he didn’t make those moves in SD, he could put them in place here in Buffalo, Why didn’t he last year? Well again he didn’t have final say, and maybe his input was listened to but ultimately not followed, but now that he is in charge he can put the plan in motion.
No weekend spent pantsless is a wasted weekend.
I know you guys all have this "Nix was under contract but must have hid in the back room somewhere" idea.
C’mon Jason, that’s not it at all. There’s a way that power is organized and Nix was nowhere near the top. The Bills had an owner, GM, head coach, VP of college scouting and VP or pro personel that obviously outranked the national scout who had been hired a few months eariler. Nix was a scout. His job was to scout players for the draft and he was hired after the college season ended. How can you possibly think that the scout that Buffalo had just hired had anything to do with trading away Jason Peters or organizing the Bills depth chart after the trade. That’s completely crazy.
Yeah the Bills paid him to do nothing and he did nothing
The Bills paid him to scout players and he scouted players. You know, things like scouting reports and what not. His job as a scout, did not include making trades with the Eagles or telling the rest of the room to shut up and draft who he wanted to draft.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
OK
Lets agree to not provide Nix credit for San Diego’s draft and not provide him credit fo the Bills last year… That is only fair than, right?
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll agree to that as long as you can agree that Nix, as the assistant GM for 8 years, had a much, much bigger influence on what San Diego did than he did in Buffalo after spending a few months in the FO with the title of national scout. I wouldn’t give Nix credit for any specific pick, but I think he does deserve some credit for the amount of success that San Diego had in general.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
I like Nix, I think he obviously has the ability to evaluate talent. However how he assembles a team is a big question mark in my book. I am willing to give him a chance, we will see.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds like a plan that historically has worked!
The article shows a plan that worked :)
I feel we need to take a tackle with our first round pick
That’s the exact notion I was trying to dispell. Buffalo doesn’t need to do anything. Trading for Roman Oben and eventually drafting a LT in the 2nd round worked for San Diego. Plugging in backups who have impressed is working for Indy and New Orleans. Tennessee drafted a good LT in the 2nd round and Pittsburgh and New England (maybe twice for NE) did alright with that strategy too. Those teams have all made the QB a priority over the OL and if Buffalo has the opportunity to do the same, I think they might be smart to do so.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
Again
Why are we evaluating the Chargers? I am really confused.
one question: Was Nix ever the GM for the Chargers? Answer = no.
Therefore, I disagree with the notion that we can study the chargers past draft history and relate this to nix. I think we can be pretty certain, never did Nix have the final say during the draft, therefore trying to judge tendencies is not fair.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
It’s not about whether he had final say. It’s about the philosophy that he cut his decision-making teeth in. His bosses in SD hired an Assistant GM; Nix has now hired an Assistant GM. So he took THAT from San Diego; why would you assume that the similarities would stop there?
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
It’s also just an example of team that fixed a problem in a way that nobody around here is talking about. I think this could be about how the Giants built a Super Bowl winner and it would still have some relevance. The fact that Nix was there and at least somewhat involved was enough for me to write it up.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
Has very little to do with Nix
He didn’t even mention the word “Nix” in the response you replied to here.
The entire article is based on the idea that the Bills don’t need to draft at OT in the 1st to rebuild the OL. He provides the Chargers as an example of this, and offered up the Giants, Saints, Colts, Pittsburgh, Tennessee and New England as other examples in the exact response you just replied to.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
OK… As long as we are not attributing draft selections to Nix… Anymore than personell decisions that were made last year by OBD (which Nix was part of).
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Agree
I gotta agree with you Jason, FO has done so silly shi@ when it came to player personnel. Hopefully new regime will exercise some logic this year.
by buffalobacker on Feb 15, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
How did Butler not do that well last year – he played ONE GAME!
by Posluszny Pollocks on Feb 15, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Go back and read Ron's takes
from preseason, etc.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
So, let's say we take Clausen or Bradford in the first...
.. or even Dan Williams or maybe Sergio Kindle. Whichever player we take becomes a great player. We follow up in the second round with a guy like Vlad Ducasse.
Does that meet your standard for making the OL #1 priority? Recommend that you clarify why you mean, because almost everyone is taking it as “if we don’t take an OT at #9, we fail.”
Nix was not the GM when these decisions were made
You make an interesting point, but Nix was not the GM in 2003. That was at the end of Butler’s tenure and the beginning of Smith’s. I’m sure Nix had some inputs, but he was not the GM who makes the ultimate decision. He may use the same blueprint, but then again he may not….
Exactly. Which is why we said “don’t expect” as oppose to “O-Line won’t be a priority.”
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, the circumstances are probably very different too. SD rolled the dice and was able to find a decent vet to man LT for a couple seasons while other positions were taken care of. That might not even be an option this offseason. And who knows, maybe the only reason that Smith/Nix passed on Jamaal Brown in 2006 was because they were confident that Marcus McNeil was a good option and would be available. This article is nothing more than an example of how an organization that Nix was a part of managed to overhaul the OL without making it priority number one. If I had to guess, I’d say that Buffalo will take a LT in the first round this spring. I’m just surprised by how many people think that it’s a lock to happen or needs to happen.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
OT Questions
What potential do Bell, Meredith, or Scott have? I realize most of these guys were seen as projects, but if one could develop I would feel much more comfortable with the depth we have. I would be curious if someone with more knowledge of the OT position could weigh in.
Realistic
I think most of us were overly optimistic these guys would develop. I think Bell still has a good chance, but I don’t think we should have expectations this guys is the next coming of Jason Peters.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Scott has none. He’s not young and had struggled to make teams for a couple seasons before finding a good situation in Buffalo. Meredith and Bell have at least a little, but it’s tough to say how much. I think you could easily make a case that they have enough potential that Buffalo could go with a vet LT (assuming they could actually find one) and not be hurting the future by doing so.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
When it comes down to it, Buffalo’s primary offensive line issue is LT. Levitre has LG sown up and proved to be durable. Hang was at least an adequate center. Wood was both playing well and durable until that freakishly hideous leg injury—assuming he’s ready to go he’s given no sign of the constant smaller injuries that have been so persistent among Buffalo OLs. If Wood can’t go then Incognito should at least be able to hold the fort for a while. Bell can take over RT when Butler has his next injury. For that matter, Bell could start at RT while Butler moves back to RG if CHIX doesn’t care for Incognito’s play/attitude.
Kaiser rightly points out that San Diego picked up a very good LT in the second round with Marcus McNeill. Buffalo (rightly, it turns out) had Levitre graded higher than Wood or any other interior lineman. It would be fantastic (meaning good, not improbable) if the Bills found the LT they wanted all along in the 2nd round or even 3rd. That would allow Buffalo to address some of the other critical needs earlier in the draft…or trade down.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
by Ron From NM on Feb 15, 2010 10:26 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Ron Brings it
REC’D!
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
BTW
Do you beleive Butler “should” be at RT? I think he is a much better RG.
I like the idea of Bell at RT, but I think he is a better swing guy whose athleticism makes him a project at LT.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
I believe that Butler should be on the field if he can stay healthy. The if is the problem. Depending on how Wood’s injury heals and Incognito does Buffalo could have a couple of options:
If Wood is available:
New LT—Levitre—Wood—Butler—Bell
New LT—Levitre—Wood—Incognito—Butler
If Wood is not available:
New LT—Levitre—Hang—Butler—Bell
New LT—Levitre—Hang—Incognito—Butler then Bell (when Butler gets hurt)
If Wood is available and Incognito pans out Buffalo has enviable depth and flexibility in the interior line positions. If only one pans out Buffalo is still in pretty good shape. If neither pans out then the interior line is again thin. No matter what happens Buffalo will be thin at tackle. Assuming the Bills get a new LT capable of playing on day one (not a guarantee even if the new LT is a first rounder) either Butler or Bell starts with the other as the swing tackle. Yeah, it’s kind of scary given that an injury or two at tackle pretty much means that the QB will be (again) running for his life and/or upping his health insurance.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
by Ron From NM on Feb 15, 2010 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So you think Butler is better than Bell? I might agree with that, haven’t seen enough of Bell to make that call, or Butler at RT for that matter.
I think we might be able to get a FA RT and let Butler stay inside, where he is a much bigger asset.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
I think we might be able to get a FA RT
Sorry but that made me laugh….
No weekend spent pantsless is a wasted weekend.
I think anyone of us could provide the FA RT
that OBD is looking for. Joe P would be my number one recommendation.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Feb 15, 2010 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
lol
-Buffalo Rumblings resident Chan Gailey basher-
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 15, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
I would be happy to "pass" my recommendation along to CHIX :-)
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
Hilarious… I didn’t even catch that… Was just working on a figure that had a label “WTF” it stands for West Tank Farm, but I couldn’t stop giggling for like 5 mintues.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 15, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Nice article. It’s definitely a huge priority though, and I think Nix knows this. I think the headline is a bit misleading because the article basically says the SD gameplan was more later round pickups. If by priority you guys meant first round draft pick, then I understand. But it seems that Nix believes in his scouts and grades in linemen that can be picked up in rounds 2 and later.
Knowing this makes me feel a lot more at ease. At least when I see the linemen picked up later in the draft I know they are potentially going to be starters.
Nice article Kaiser.......
I certainly hope they do something to address the OL…..
however if they can find a way to mold the current group of what we have into reasonable players………then that in and of itself will have technically…….“addressed the problem as well”
Addressing the problem doesnt mean just acquiring new players people……….it can also be about developing what we currently have.
-Buffalo Rumblings resident Chan Gailey basher-
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 15, 2010 11:01 AM EST reply actions
Great work...
…on the article. That’s some serious research.
I like the core of the group (assuming Wood can come back). Bell got some useful experience, especially under the failed gimmick of the ‘Not Quite a Huddle’ offense. As they transition to more traditional offense, I think that will help guys like a healthy Bell tremendously, as their inexperience won’t show up so dramatically (see 4 offsides in one game) in a more basic pro-set..
If Wood can’t come back, I think will be trouble, partly because he’s a pretty good player, and partly because that was a 1st rounder, but O-Line assets can be found throughout the draft. Even in the Bills glory days, they pulled no-name guys like John Davis and House Ballard into the mix and they became at least serviceable starters – or Pro Bowlers in the case of House.
I like Bulaga (who seems to be the hot topic these days), but I’d rather have McClain and pick up a Kyle Calloway type of player in the later rounds. Of course, I’d rather trade down and get another 3rd and 4th, but someone is gonna have to want to trade with BFLO.
I hate being so optimistic with this team, but I really think that there isn’t much separation in prospects after the top three, until the high twenties, so I don’t think that they can go wrong at 9. That being the case, you might as well draft strictly for need. Unless Okung, Bulaga and Williams are all gone by then, (I don’t care for projects in the top 10, i.e. Davis, Campbell), which is unlikely, you might as well draft a guy that can come in from day one and lock down your left side.
They have holes on offense and defense. In previous drafts OBD has chosen “needs” players versus the choosing the best player available on your board. Obviously, that got them into big trouble. While chosing a tackle is important, they shouldn’t pencil any pick in especially if there are better players still on their board. I think that’s what kaisertown is trying to get across. Nice article.
Great Article
I don’t think they need to draft a Tackle in the first round like some have suggested. Sure the O-Lne is weak but if there’s a premier player at any other position that is graded higher then the O-Lineman available, you take him. A 1st round lineman doesn’t mean he’s gonna be a great LT (see Williams, M.). I guess that applies to any position but I’ll be fairly disappointed if McClain is available and they go with a OT. I thought they should have taken Orakpo last year. Don’t over think it Nix! Just get the guy that’s the highest on your board who’s not a project (see Maybin, A.).
Good article....
Enlightening. As I have made it known that we need some good o-line prospects I aslo realize we need a talented QB to run the show. My only thing there is that I really only see a few options in the draft (Bradford, Clausen and then on a lesser level Robinson) that I consider as possible options and then FA QB’s arent that great. The only other option I see is to trade for one and I dont think McNabb or Vick (possible rumors) are the solutions. We have also, in my opinion after looking at overall production, been hurting at the play making WR position. I think we actually do need one or two play making options at WR. I had replied to someone about a month ago that I didnt think that was a big need but after further review, I think we need help in that area. Not in the first round but for sure in the first 5 rounds we need to find some talent there.
"If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?"
~Vince Lombardi~
My only thing there is that I really only see a few options in the draft
I think that is the one valid reason that Buffalo can pretty much ignore QB this year. If the draft ends and Nix comes out and says that they didn’t draft a QB because he never had a chance to get good value on one, then that’s fine. If Nix says that he didn’t draft a QB because the OL is more important or because the roster wasn’t good enough to put a rookie QB on, then I’ll be pissed.
I signed up for Second Life about a year ago. Back then my life was so great that I literally wanted a second one. In my Second Life I was also a paper salesman and I was also named Dwight. Absolutely everything was the same. Except I could fly. - Dwight Schrute
by kaisertown on Feb 15, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Totally agree with this:
If the draft ends and Nix comes out and says that they didn’t draft a QB because he never had a chance to get good value on one, then that’s fine. If Nix says that he didn’t draft a QB because the OL is more important or because the roster wasn’t good enough to put a rookie QB on, then I’ll be pissed.
by StroudFanClub on Feb 15, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
What's most likely
is that we’ll draft a Jevan Snead or Jonathan Crompton or John Skelton or whoever, and they’ll tell us that he was the highest rated QB on their board!
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
oh please....please no......
Snead and Crompton…..yuck…
and I dont even know anything about Skelton except for the Joe Flacco comparions…..so Imma say pass on him as well.
Besides Bradford (Lukewarm interest) and Max Hall (unexplainable man-crush) I dont really like any QB prospect this year……
-Buffalo Rumblings resident Chan Gailey basher-
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 15, 2010 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
God I hope not. QB in top 40 picks, please. Or you'll be looking for another in 3-4 years
by StroudFanClub on Feb 15, 2010 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
there's no guarantee a guy picked in the top 40 (especially this year)
will be any better than a guy picked in the next 200 or so……..this years class is just not all that great IMO.
-Buffalo Rumblings resident Chan Gailey basher-
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 15, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yep. There are only two I feel really comfortable with, and one of them is a rather massive project player. (Bet you can’t guess who the two are…)
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
LOL. Yuck. No. No, no he is not.
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 15, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Im gonna say Clausen and......as the project player.........
Jarrett Brown from West Virgina?
-Buffalo Rumblings resident Chan Gailey basher-
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 15, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Jarrett Brown from West Virgina?
Hes freakin huge. I was out at a club in WVU and he was out… No idea it was him but my friend told me who it was. Looked like a damn linebacker.
That is all. lol
"Hey ey ey ey"
yeah he's like 6'4 225..........
and fast.
-Buffalo Rumblings resident Chan Gailey basher-
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 15, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
I like Brown a lot as a developmental player
In fact, if I do a mock in the next few weeks…there’s a good chance he might be included. Or might not :)
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
I think he could end up bein real good with about 2-3 yrs of mentoring
by uPitt_BillsFan on Feb 15, 2010 9:34 PM EST up reply actions
nice.
-Buffalo Rumblings resident Chan Gailey basher-
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 15, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
I'm guessing that one guy that was mentioned in passing on this weblog from some state university in the south
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Well, I like Tebow but he is a bit of a project QB. Maybe that is one you are speaking of. As I noted above I like Zach Robinson a bit and then the other, what I will call sneaky good IMO, qb I like is Mike Kafka. So, all in all, I like Bradford and Clausen as top 2 and then these others I just listed. The only one I think I would throw to the wolves though is Bradford (if healthy).
"If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?"
~Vince Lombardi~
Kafka is an interesting prospect.......
the only thing I wonder about him is about him being a one year wonder in a gimmicky offense……….
-Buffalo Rumblings resident Chan Gailey basher-
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 15, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions
I can see that but I'm willing to overlook it for a good "prospect".....
I saw him play a couple of times and liked what I saw. I’m not a scout by any means but he seems like a “possible” late round flier. Between 5-7. Here’s what I read on him as well……….
Outside observers overlooked Kafka’s throwing ability until this season, but the 6-foot-3, 220-pound St. Rita graduate completed 65.7 percent of his throws, had five 300-yard passing games and ended the regular season with 116 consecutive pass attempts without an interception. “He has a cannon for an arm,” Fitzgerald said. “And he’s not a finished product. Other guys played quarterback coming out of the womb and worked with quarterback gurus from the time they were 7 years old. He played only one year of high school quarterback. His best football is ahead of him.” – Teddy Greenstein, The Chicago Tribune
"If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?"
~Vince Lombardi~
Def no guarantee they will be good if picked in the Top 40
But I can almost guarantee someone picked after pick 40 will not turn out great. Almost
by StroudFanClub on Feb 15, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Eeeekkkk....
I wouldn’t ever put a guarantee on anything like that. Even “almost”. There were 6 starting QB’s in the NFL this year that “I personally” would be more than happy to have lead our Bills that were drafted, or not, outside the top 40 in their respective drafts. Matt Schaub (#90), Tom Brady (#199), Tony Romo (undrafted), Kurt Warner (undrafted), Matt Cassel (#230)and even Matt Hasselbeck (#187) (Was better about 5 yrs ago but still better than what we have).
"If winning isn't everything, why do they keep score?"
~Vince Lombardi~
Let's go through that list:
Brady- obvious exception to my top 40 rule.
Romo- sneaky exception, as he wasn’t drafted at all.
Warner- same as Romo. Undrafted.
Cassell- Not sure I’d say he’s successful yet. He may be, though. Hasn’t made playoffs yet.
Schaub- Very close to being an exception as well, but he hasn’t made playoffs yet either.
Hasselbeck- Yes, another exception like Brady.
So overall, you named 6 QBs (which is still a low percentage). I agree with 4. 2 of those 4 were undrafted. So I think my theory is still a good one, but let me rephrase it:
If you are looking for a franchise QB via the draft, to obtain the best results, a top 40 pick needs to be invested. (With a few exceptions, of course: Tom Brady being the most obvious.)
Since Warner and Romo were both undrafted, they aren’t included in my theory, good or bad.
Also, the team that drafted Hasselbeck did not get a franchise QB out of him, since he did his winning in places other than Green Bay (team that drafted him.)
While I know these may seem like technicalities, they are still true. There are very very few QBs drafted past the top 40 picks who lead the team that drafted them to multiple playoffs.
by StroudFanClub on Feb 15, 2010 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
Repost on Drafting a QB
Drafting a QB
I posted most of this previously but added the % from the 4th round on. This is for those who say just draft a QB from round 2 and on. The chances of success drop immensely
The best bet is to take a QB in the first round (which guarantee’s nothing) but the percentage of a QB taken in round 1 of becoming a star is significantly higher. From 1992 thru 2007 (It’s too early to tell from 08 &09) there were 36 QB’ s drafted in round 1. Out of those numbers 9 can be considered stars—Bledsoe (93), McNair(95), Manning (98), McNabb (99), Palmer(03), Manning-Rivers-Roethlisberger (04) and Rodgers(05). That’s a hit of 25% in the first round, it would be higher if I included Vick, Culpepper, Kerry Collins and Cutler but I don’t believe they apply.
During the same time period QB’s taken in rounds 2 & 3 totaled 36 of which only 3 became stars. Leading the way was Brees drafted at the top of round 2 (01), Plummer rd 2 (97) and a rising star in Schaub rd 3 (04). That’s a minuscule rate of success of only 8.3%.
A new addition in that same time period from the 4th round on there were 126 QB’s taken: Here’s the most successful in that period Brad Johnson 9th rd (92), Brunnell 5th rd (93), Matt Hasselback 6th rd (98), Brady & Bulger 6th rd (00), Garrard 4th rd (02) and Orton 4th rd (05). That’s only 6 successful starters out of 126 or a 4.76%.
The longer a team waits to draft a QB the higher the chance of failure. I know you can say that about every position but the QB position is the cornerstone of an NFL team.
'To get something you never had,
you have to do something you never did.'
by Goose22 on Feb 16, 2010 8:08 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I would argue this proves a point, regardless of the round selected, QBs are one hell of a risky pick… It is a huge risk/huge reward scenario.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 16, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
isn’t every position a high risk but potentially huge reward scenario?
Hello - thanks for reading my signature. It's very interesting. Bye
by J2 on Feb 16, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
Roll the dice
The Bills priority is OT—LB & QB not nessarily in that order but the 3 needs are equally important. OT—yes the Bills need a blue chip prospect, QB—-yes the Bills need a Blue chip prospect and of course at LB—-the Bills need a defensive leader blue chip prospect.
They will take their highest rated player on their board regardless of position. I’m still leaning that the Bills will take McClain if he is there at 9.
'To get something you never had,
you have to do something you never did.'
who are you hearing that from?
Is it just what the talking heads are syaying or do you have smething more substantial with regard to McClain?
by S2 on Feb 15, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
Re:
S2—just my opinion, there will be only guesses and theory’s on who the Bills should take and why.
With all the talk of the Bills going to the 3-4 they need LB’s and McClain plays like the next Ray Lewis..
Here’s what the Bills currently have to convert to the 3-4 and my opinion on who will stay…
LB’s—-Poz and who? Corto-No, Stamer-No, Manalac-No, Palmer-No, Ellison-?, Buggs-No, Draft-? and Mitchell coming off a knee injury. I’m sure the new staff will be moving Scott back to DB. Nic Harris is in limbo.
- 3-4 defense needs quality LB’s the Bills questionably have 2!!
'To get something you never had,
you have to do something you never did.'
QB People QB
I´m not sure if all of you watched the playoffs this year, but you din´t have to be a genius to realize this is a QB league and you´re not getting anywhere without a good one.
I don´t care if we have to trade up for one, give way donte, lee, our entire defense, or the jills but we need a good QB now!!!!!!!
cool read. I enjoyed it.
"you just have to know there's always going to be adversity. None of these games are going to be easy. Nothing will be given to us" - Paul Posluszny
Everybody in the world is in agreement that the Bills need serious improvement on their 28th ranked offensive line, but the idea is getting players that fit in whatever schemes they are planning to run, not whoever had the best stats in their senior year. What has every Tebow critic said about him? he won’t fit as a passing quarterback in the NFL. Whether or not you agree with that, as I don’t want another Tebow discussion, the same thinking is applied here: whoever the Bills feel will contribute most to the success of the team in the upcoming season is who they’re going to go with, whether it be an offensive lineman or a quarterback etc. That has to be the logic. If Buddy Nix and Chan Gailey see a guy out there in free agency that they can bring in and be a solid starter, I would be disappointed if they didn’t. While Nix was only the Chargers Assistant GM and Director of Player Personnel and not the GM, he still played a large role from the front office side of things in the emergence of the Chargers. If you’re going to argue that Nix deserves no/very little credit for the Chargers, then you also have to argue that Nix is completely unqualified for the GM job, which I doubt anybody here does. Nix is going to do whatever he sees fit to improve this team and make it a winner fast. Its why he’s here. Every player added or eliminated will be done for a reason. Plain and simple. A formula only becomes proven when it works on more than one team, so I don’t imagine Nix going about the offensive line the same way the Chargers did between ’03 and ’05 in the case that what happened with the Chargers was just a case of luck. On the same note, they have to work with what is out there and they may have to go about things in a similar fashion. But just remember, my fellow Bills fans, its almost impossible for the O-Line to get much worse.

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