State of the Bills Roster: Nose Tackle
Now that the Buffalo Bills have hired George Edwards as their defensive coordinator, we can start taking a look at Buffalo's defensive personnel. As it's been announced that the team will be making the transition to the 3-4 defensive scheme, this exercise now becomes particularly interesting, because let's face it - the Bills are not well-equipped at the moment to run that system.
After the jump, we'll take a look at the only two players on Buffalo's roster that should be considered as nose tackle options.
What the new regime might be looking for
Edwards has experience in 4-3 and 3-4 alignments, but he's spent the past five years in Miami, and the last two working for the Bill Parcells regime employing your traditional two-gap 3-4 system. It's not crystal clear what type of 3-4 Edwards will look to implement; Buffalo's current personnel are much better suited to the 3-4 Over, which emphasizes athleticism in a one-gap setting, but Edwards comes from a Parcells 3-4 scheme emphasizing two-gap defensive linemen.
For now, all we can guess is that the Bills will go with what Edwards knows and begin the slow build toward a two-gap system. Edwards has said he'll try to tailor the scheme to the personnel, but that Bullough-Fairbanks 3-4 seems to be the most likely end result, so expect the Bills to make decisions based on eventually playing that defense.
Current personnel
I get the feeling that this will be intensely debated in the comments section, but we're only going to list two players as nose tackles going forward. As you'll see, the list does not include a certain highly-paid veteran that we traded for in 2008 that also played for Edwards during his illustrious career at the University of Georgia. You'll find out why (spoiler alert!) when we cover the defensive ends in this series.
Kyle Williams. There are a few current Bills players that have to be wondering whether or not they'll be here next year or in two years because of this switch, and Kyle might be the best of that group. Folks, listen closely: Kyle Williams does not fit into a 3-4 defense. Not in any way, shape or fashion. That does not, however, mean that he is not a valuable commodity; Williams is active enough to make a contribution in any defensive system. He absolutely will not be able to handle the end position in the Bullough-Fairbanks system, because he doesn't have the body type. He most closely resembles a one-gap nose tackle in the 3-4 Over, but he's not a perfect fit there, either. At best, Williams looks like a rotational player that can give you downs at the nose or at end, but he'll be a liability no matter where you put him.
Contract status: 3 years remaining. Owed $5.305M in base salaries.
Lonnie Harvey. We're listing him here because he's a 6'3", 342-pound unknown. He spent the latter half of the 2009 season on Buffalo's practice squad. I literally know nothing about this guy, but if he's capable of handling two gaps, his chances of making the 2010 roster skyrocketed yesterday. He's definitely a guy to keep an eye on, even if it's only to figure out exactly what we have in him.
Contract status: Signed a reserve/future contract on January 5, 2010.
Who stays? Who goes?
To be quite honest, I'm not expecting either of these guys to be on Buffalo's opening day roster next September. Harvey is a complete unknown, though clearly he's got a shot to stick simply because of the scheme change. Williams probably won't be cut, because he's too good a player with too reasonable a contract to simply be let go, but it's clear that he's not an ideal fit anywhere in any 3-4, and could hit the trade block.
If I were a betting man (and no, I'm not)...
Keep your eye on the Houston Texans. Yeah, they had the No. 10 run defense in the NFL in 2009, but they're not exactly brimming with talent at DT in their 4-3. Bill Kollar is Houston's defensive line coach, and was with Buffalo when the Bills drafted Williams. Kollar helped turn Williams into a pretty solid player, and with a reasonable contract, Williams could be pretty easy to deal for a mid-round draft pick. Given Buffalo's massive amount of needs and the complete re-building project they've taken on on both sides of the ball, that might be a deal worth making for both sides.
Let's assume for the moment, however, that the Bills choose to hang on to Williams. They'll still need help at nose tackle, but I wouldn't bet on them taking one high. Williams is too good to keep off the field, so the Bills might look for a cheap free agent or a mid-to-low round rookie to platoon with Williams. If Williams leaves, however, this position obviously slides up the list of priorities.
Names to keep an eye on
Dan Williams and Terrence Cody are easily the two best wide-bodies available via the draft this year; Williams, in particular, has seen his draft stock skyrocket after an outstanding senior season working with former Tampa Bay defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin in Tennessee. You're going to hear Dan Williams' name tied to Buffalo a lot, and he's a "safe" prospect that the always-conservative Bills might feel comfortable reaching for. A cheap free agent like Ian Scott or Jimmy Kennedy might make sense, too.
Previous installments of the State of the Bills Roster series: QB, RB, WR, TE, OT, G/C.
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Comments
I’m surprised you didn’t just write “Nobody” and call it a night.
The DT from Syracuse whose name escapes me seems like a decent second round option.
Stroud not even being named on the list is a little weird. I understand he’s a better fit at DE but I have a feeling he’s going to asked to play some NT this year.
God this switch makes no sense.
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Arthur Jones is not a nose tackle prospect. 4-3 DT or possibly 3-4 DE.
Being asked to play NT and being best-suited to play NT are two entirely different things. At least in my mind – and, judging by his comments, in Stroud’s own mind – he’s an end in a 3-4.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 5, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
Add the fact that Stroud and Edward have worked together before and I think that they’ll both see to it the Stroud gets to play the position that he is best suited for, and not the one that he is most needed at.
And I think that thats the sign of a good coach, they put players at the position that they are best at, not the one that they are most needed at, and then look for another solution at the position of need. Unfortunatly we had Dick Jauron and Perry Fewell as coaches so we had Poz as a MLB instead of an OLB and Denney backing up Schobel instead of spliting time with Kelsey.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
You understand how little I know and care about college football and the draft until March. :-) I’m just going by MTD:
Jones has the size and strength to play tackle in either a 3-4 or a 4-3. Syracuse used a three-man front in 2009 and Jones held the nose. While it limited some of Jones’ playmaking ability, he was still a factor, particularly against the run.
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by MattRichWarren on Feb 5, 2010 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Run defend: Keeps a good anchor against double teams. Has the leg drive to maintain his space. Big and strong enough to play nose in a 3-4 scheme. Showed he could be a factor against the run — see 2008 Notre Dame game.
and
Jones is an attractive prospect because his ability to play the 3-4 or 4-3. This would allow teams the luxury of presenting different looks on defense. Jones’ injuries may have knocked him out of the first 50 picks of the draft, but he’s a very good player. Despite his injuries, Big East head coaches named him a first-team all-conference player in 2009.
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by MattRichWarren on Feb 5, 2010 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
I should have been clearer (my bad :)). Jones can play 3-4 nose in that Under defense, at least how I look at him. He’s a lighter guy, but very strong, and pretty athletic. To maximize his abilities, he’d have to be used like Jay Ratliff, and that wouldn’t work with the Parcells-type defense that Edwards has worked in.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 5, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
Okie dokie.
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by MattRichWarren on Feb 5, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
But he is the brother of...
Jon “Bones” Jones
by NorCal BillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
I think he's a realistic option
for the Bills if they trade back up into the 2nd like they did last year. Jones sounds like a very good 34 DE to me
by louiethegent on Feb 5, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
I’m surprised you didn’t just write "Nobody" and call it a night.
I was thinking the exact same thing.
I my mind I expect to see this:
Who do we have? no one.
Solution: Sign and draft someone.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cam Thomas
Has taken a look at this guy? He’s has great size and an athletic build. During the Senior Bowl practices he was blowing every guard and center he faced 5 yds deep into the backfield. I hope to God he’s available in the 2nd!
Confucius say, "Man who go to bed with itchy butt, wake up with smelly finger."
6’-4" 331 lbs.
34" reach with 10-1/2" hands
5.1 40 time
Pretty impressive athlete for prototype size. Not a fat-a** either. He has a build much like Suh, but thicker in the chest and hips. I’m really going to look at this guy during the combine…
Confucius say, "Man who go to bed with itchy butt, wake up with smelly finger."
Great thought
As a Bills fan/UNC alum, I would LOVE to see them go for Thomas. He should be there in the 3rd, depending on his combine/pro day results. He didn’t get a lot of attention, because UNC’s defense has some pretty flashy players (including our other DT), but he’s solid, never seemed to get pushed out of position, and came up big in big games. Most of UNC’s defense is very athletic, and he’s no exception.
As for Williams
I honestly think that the Bills andWilliams would be best served by trading him before the draft. I`m thinking that a second rounder should be our asking price, but that we should be ready to settle for a third. We should not take anything less than a third rounder for him, he just too damn good to accept anything less.
I really love Williams as a DT and loved watching him play for us. He was easily one of my favorite players on our D. But he has no place playing in a 3-4, so lets get a pick or two for him.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 9:28 AM EST reply actions
At least in my mind, Williams to Houston for a third round pick makes so much sense for both sides it hurts.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 5, 2010 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Ditto. But I think that we should see if we can’t get a seond rounder for him first. If not, then I have no problem sending him to the Texans for a 3rd.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
the thing is, Williams is a good player under a very reasonable contract. Assuming Chan’s comments on making the schemes fit the players was more than just lip service, I think they’d be better served keeping him and finding a way to use him, even if it is as a situational/rotation guy.
by tm on Feb 5, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t disagree with that. I don’t think they’d be so married to him that they’d not listen to offers, though. Let’s face it – we’re looking at a massive overhaul of personnel here, and an extra pick would help them do that.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 5, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
even an extra pick for fringe talent vs. a known commodity in williams?
by quantumuprising on Feb 5, 2010 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Given the depth of this year’s class, a third-rounder isn’t anywhere close to “fringe talent.”
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 5, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
If they do make a move: for a 27 year old pro bowl DT, anything less than a 2 is unacceptable
by tm on Feb 5, 2010 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Why does everyone keep calling him a Pro Bowl DT??!?!?!
What Pro Bowl did he play in?!?!
Being a Pro Bowl alternative is not the same as being named to the team. It’s a decent honor, but calling him a PB DT is just wrong!
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
ok.
If they do make a move: for a 27 year old pro bowl alternate DT, anything less than a 2 is unacceptable
my point remains the same.
by tm on Feb 5, 2010 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
He was more deserving of a Pro Bowl...
than many of 164 guys who made this year…
by NorCal BillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
really? i’ve heard this year’s class is pretty weak.
i just meant fringe in the sense that you never really know if a draft pick is going to work out, no matter where he’s taken; as opposed to a guy who has already proved that he can get it done
by quantumuprising on Feb 5, 2010 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
It’s weak at the top. Not a lot of blue-chip prospects. But there are a ton of solid prospects between Rounds 2 and 5.
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 5, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions
So no HOFers, but a bucnh of pro-bowlers?
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
this is very true, we should try to load up on picks because the first five rounds of this draft have a lot of potential solid players and starters…I liked Kyle Williams and yes if we can get a second round pick for him then we should part ways…especially if that second nets us Cam Thomas…
Hey, if we are in the market for relics, somebody give John Madden a call
by Stabby Mcshank on Feb 5, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
But that known commodity is being asked to play in a new system so he’s almost as unknown.
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by MattRichWarren on Feb 5, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Nicely put. The big question with Kyle Williams is whether we want to hold onto him for a year or two while we make the transition to a 3-4 and use him in a number of 4-3 looks, or whether we want to get maximum trade value for him now.
Houston makes a lot of sense as a potential trading partner, but don’t forget Minnesota. They like their DT’s to be named Williams, and they may need to replace one this year.
Rumour has it that they are very big on Dan Williams and are willing to trade up for him. Imagine that, Pat Williams retires, so they traget another big DT named Williams in the draft.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
If that happened.
Would they be called The Williams Wall v1.1?
There's not a wide receiver who is fast enough, that J.P. Losman can't overthrow him on a fly pattern.
by The Buffalo Kid on Feb 5, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
I think V2.0 might be a bit more appropriate.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 9:19 PM EST up reply actions
that’s fair. i wouldn’t say almost as unknown though – he’s proven that either way he can succeed against nfl offensive lines, something a college player has not.
by quantumuprising on Feb 5, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
I’d agree with that except for one thing. If our ultimate goal is the traditional 3-4 that we used to run before the Donahoe era, then Williams really doesn’t have a place on this team. And he’s just to valuable to use in a reserve or rotational role. And I don’t think that his value will get any higher than it is now, as his value will drop drasticly even if he does well in the 3-4.
The time to get maximum value for him is now, and that is why we should trade him.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
For the time being I’m willing to accept Chan’s statement that he’s going to make the schemes fit the players. If that is true, it’s silly to get rid of a young, reasonably priced, productive player for an unknown quantity in the form of a mid round draft pick. Good teams find a way to use good players. If he doesn’t fit in a “traditional” 3-4, find a way to modify the system so he does.
by tm on Feb 5, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
He said that more for the offense than the defense.
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by MattRichWarren on Feb 5, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed. Gailey said he’d form his O around our players and let the DC handle all things deffensive.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
Why? Why would we use a 3rd round pick on a guy who weighs 306 when we already have Okoye and could snag someone like Troup with the 3rd pick?
www.manningface.com
You just like shooting down trade talks don’t you?
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
Because with Williams...
Your D-Line would be better than they would be with Troup
by NorCal BillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
Umm, Williams is a solid player and KNOWN commodity unlike Troup
Nix and Chan, the new Cheech and Chong of the Bills, hopefully they will be as successful in business as they were, and not so much the drug fueled comedy act....
… which is exactly what NorCal said.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 6, 2010 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed, that works out well for both teams
Williams plays for a coach he knows and likes, he gets to play in a system that maximizes his talents, and we get a pick we can use on an area of need as long as we snag someone like Ian Scott in FA to take up William’s role.
Nix and Chan, the new Cheech and Chong of the Bills, hopefully they will be as successful in business as they were, and not so much the drug fueled comedy act....
Not in the first round
We’re not really serious about getting a NT as our first round pick, are we? OL and QB (and I am NOT keen on drafting a QB in the first round) are, I think, still primary goals. If we want to take a prospective anchor at NT shouldn’t we be expecting to get some pretty substantial compensation for trading down, because how high are these guys likely to go? I don’t want us reaching (again) in the draft.
Is anyone else thinking?
That it is great to say we are going to emply the 3-4 now, but when the reality hits (HARD) that we do not have any of the personell necessary they might backtrack!
Seems similar to the Langston Walker can play Left Tackle discussion we were having last year.
My gut tells me we move towards the 3-4, but might be stuck using it, let’s say 50% of the time. Simply put our quality players, Kyle Williams, Schobel, Stroud, Kawika, and Poz are a much better fit in teh 4-3; and our reserves (especially our undersized LB’s) are only usable in the 4-3. Besides a few players, most notably Maybin, we do not have the personnel whom will exceed in the 3-4… This points out even further what a horrible pick Maybin was last year.
I have no problem moving towards the 3-4, but to draw a line in the sand and say we WILL do this is just not pragmatic. To make an edict of such right now would be careless, because we can simply do not have the pieces. That is like saying you are going to build a new $500 Million stadium when you have $100!
I will make a bold prediction… We WILL NOT see the 3-4 more than 50% of the time in 2010!
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 5, 2010 10:01 AM EST reply actions
I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if you’re correct.
by tm on Feb 5, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
What if
We traded both Williams and Schobel to Houston? Schobel wants to be closer to home and Williams isn’t an ideal fit. What do you think we could get in return in terms of draft picks?
Both together, a first and a fifth, anything less and we`d be getting robbed. That being said I think that Schobel could be VERY good as a rushing OLB that only has to occasionally drop in zone coverage and I`d like to keep him.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Then we would be getting robbed… Best we would do is a 3rd… my gut feeling… People ALWAYS over-value players.
Remember we got a late 1st round pick for a very young probowl LT last year, and to me that was amazing.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 5, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed. i think that we should be asking for a second rounder for Williams, but also be ready to accept a 3rd rounder.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Whoa--
I can’t agree on trading Williams, he is just hitting his prime. There will always be a place and a role on a team for a FOOTBALL player and Williams is certainly a FOOTBALL player. To trade him at this time for a 2 or 3 (an unknown commodity) would be a bad move in my opinion. Edwards has stated that he will mold his defenses around the talent on hand. The Bills should have learn their lesson by letting quaility players go only to have to continue to try and replace them.
As Wyatt Earp once said "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me! ~
Hiring a DC who wants to move towards a 3-4 will require that we let quality players move on… They will eventually have to fit the sytem.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 5, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly, and Williams will never fit a 3-4. His value is never going to be as high as it is now, so I think that we would best be served by trading him now.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Well
Let’s get in quallity players first before that let quality players go. Letting good players go the last 10 years has gotten the Bills into the position they are in now.
As Wyatt Earp once said "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me! ~
No letting good players walk for nothing is what got us here. Trading away a good player in order to make your team better down the line is how good teams stay good (think Patriots trading away Seymore).
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
!
Letting them walk or trading them for an unknown commodity is trouble. Is this team in a position to let one of their better players go for a draft pick. If the Bills had the same talent as the Pats and could get a no# 1 for Williams I would agree. But the Bills are talent thin and after developing Williams for 3 years (alternate for the pro bowl) to trade him for a draft pick that has to be develop makes no sense. Williams is hitting is prime and will be counted on to be a leader.
As Wyatt Earp once said "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me! ~
It’s a risk we should take. It’s a draft pick, we can’t be optimistic or pessimisstic about it before it’s used. We can’t guarentee that we’ll see a great player with that pick, but as he struggles to find a position, it’s a good chance we won’t see Williams be a “Football player” in the same capacity he was earlier.
Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged
That’s a smart move when you have some depth, and have someone in place to take over that role. They weren’t counting on the draft pick stepping in for Seymour.
by tm on Feb 5, 2010 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly
The Bills have had to make trades for the now the Pats make trades for the future…
The Bills let Pat Williams go in “04” after developing him, they’ve been trying to replace him ever since (trades involving Stroud & McCargo). He was a player that was just hitting his prime. A coach will find a role for a good football player the Bills need good football players. To trade a proven young player for the unknown at this point just wouldn’t be smart.
If we could trade Schobel at this stage of his career for high picks I would agree with…
As Wyatt Earp once said "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me! ~
Goose I agree 100%… Problem is we can’t hold onto players that won’t fit the system… It depends how flexible Edwards will be… If we are going to try to exclusively run the 3-4, it makes no sense to keep players like Williams and Schobel.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 5, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Agree on Williams, disagree on Schobel. Der Jaeger put up a good article that Football Outsiders wrote that put Schobel in the league`s top 5 DE`s in terms of on feild impact. And the type of factors that they took into account easily translate to 3-4 rush OLB. Schobel could be a VERY good rushing OLB for us.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if Schobel will even want to hang around if we switch defenses… He is already on the fence about retirement.
I got nothing.
by Jason from OH-IO on Feb 5, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Schobel stated 2 weeks ago that he thinks that he’s better suited for the 3-4 Rush LB role at this point in his career. I thinkhe’s off the fence and that he’s willing to give us another go. Maybe all the positive changes to the team have changed his mind about retiring.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
As a Bill, Kyle Williams’ trade value will never be higher than it is right now. Keeping him for trying to somehow fit him into the 3-4 scheme would be irresponsible. There will be draft players available at less then Williams trade value that would very likely outperform him trying to play out of position. After he struggles in the 3-4 his trade value will be gone.
most of my posts get deleted :(
EXACTLY!!!!! Williams will never fit the scheme that we want to bring in. I don’t think that we should even try as a 3rd round rookie might actually out-perform him as a NT or 3-4 DE. Some ppl say we should wait to see how he performs in the 3-4, I say that if we do we will lose his trade value.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
3rd and a 4th
And considering the rebuilding project that’s underway, I’d do it in a heartbeat…I think Houston would too.
Aaron Maybin is DeMarcus Ware 2.0.
Houston Texans
Have 3 good DEs already. We have a version of Williams in Okoye. What they need is a proper NT.
www.manningface.com
Okaye is a DT...
and so is Williams…I am missing something…Did Houston change to a 3-4 all of a sudden?
by NorCal BillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
He’s saying that Okoye and Williams are the same type of DT and that they need a bog NT type DT to complement Okoye.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
Bingo.
Otherwise we might as well stick with what we got and improve our secondary.
www.manningface.com
May we interest you in Reggie Corner. He has lots of starting experience from this last season.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, I know that Corner sucks, but Okam, really?
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah but we’re actually looking for a talented NT that can start for us, not a guy with 4 career tackles in two seasons played. At least Corner has starting experience and a few INT’s.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 6, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions
Mario Williams is a DE.
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by MattRichWarren on Feb 7, 2010 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
If it wasn’t for the fact that we BADLY need help at LT and obviously QB, I would love to draft Dan Williams. Right now, I think the most likely scenario is us trading down and drafting Williams around the 13-15th pick range or staying put at nine and drafting the best LT available. I think it’s safe to assume that neither Clausen nor Bradford will be available, when we pick, and I’m never going to advocate trading up into the top six or seven, especially since no one of them are THAT good imo.
"The one commonality in both places (Oakland and Buffalo) is an aging owner who keeps interfering too much. Ralph Wilson continually butts his nose in the football operation and tells the team who to draft"
by BillsfanfromDenmark on Feb 5, 2010 10:20 AM EST reply actions
I like Gailey’s philosophy of building your scheme to fit your players. If the 3-4 is popular now then wouldn’t there be less quality 3-4 players available in the draft? It seems like defenses go in cycles because good players are available in the less popular scheme.
Players win. Not schemes or at least not the scheme-of-the-day.
Players with good coaching help win
The Bills have had good players the last 10 years. We’ve had poor depth charts, and mismanaged players galore.
Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged
Gailey is the HC and offensive coordinator, his comments about fitting the scheme to the players is primarily with regard to the offense. His comment does not necessarily mean that he will devise schemes that work for the players we have at this moment, it applies to the players on board when it’s time to actually play. Between now and then he will certainly be trying to tailor the personnel to fit his plan.
Our new defensive coordinator has announced that the Bills will definitely be going to a 3-4 defense next season. Hiring him was proof of the Bills commitment to the 3-4. Players that don’t fit will be replaced by ones that do.
most of my posts get deleted :(
I like this. I actually like this.
We needed a face lift one way or the other. In a 4-3 we would have an aging, barely competent defensive line with some badly needed help at LB. As it stands we have the reverse, a shaky LB situation with some badly needed help at DL. This is the better situation because now we actually have an excuse to get Kelsay and Denney off the team so we can actually improve the DL. Let’s face it, neither one of them serves a purpose at all now.
So our DT position just got mostly funneled into DE, which creates a logjam which is GREAT because it means somebody’s leaving. It forces that. And it’ll be the guys who can’t really play 3-4 DE (likely K+D). At LB we actually gain talent immediately because Schobel and Maybin have to stand up. Poz and Kawika are inside, they’re not world beaters but they’re quite solid at those positions, enough to make ILB not a need at all. And it’s likely Digi is coming back. We’re set at ILB, we just need Schobel back. We won’t have to start Ellison outside, and with Johnson and Stroud at DE, we just have to focus on getting a NT and an maybe OLB to play for Schobel. Add this to the fact that our run defense isn’t going to be crappy by default anymore, and we have significant progress.
It’s fine, Bills fans! There’s nothing to panic about!
Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged
And oh man. Kyle. Kyle Williams is my favorite Bill, it stings me to say this, but if we can get a 3rd or 4th round pick for him, it may be the best thing for everybody. That’s an extra pick to fortify our team this year. And he was a 5th after all.
Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged
Yeppers
An we all know that 3rd and 4th rounders always turn out to be better than what you have— AKA Williams!
Maybe we should trade Fred Jackson because his trade value is at its highest who cares if he is a good FOOTBALL player…
As Wyatt Earp once said "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me! ~
Would you play Kyle at other positions on the defense just because he’s a football player? He’d struggle playing DE and at NT his job will be to clog up 330 pound centers and guards so they don’t get through to Poz and Kawika. You want to look at me and say that Kyle Williams can honestly play Nose tackle?
The only thing worse against the run than a cruddy Tampa 4-3 is a 3-4 without adequate support in the middle.
Look, this is a real situation, something that has merit, not “zomgroflmao bRiAn bRoHm 4 pReZ!!!”. This applies to the current situation we’re in. Trading Williams is unquestionably something that’s in the Bills’ best interests to at least consider. A) he has trade value as a Pro Bowl alternate, and B) he’s not set up to be the player he was allowed to be at the 3-technique. You’re treating this like it’s something as silly as getting rid of Fred Jackson, which I’ll agree is a bit horrifying. It’s nothing like that.
Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged
hes worth more than a 3rd!
"you just have to know there's always going to be adversity. None of these games are going to be easy. Nothing will be given to us" - Paul Posluszny
by poz on Feb 5, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
The Williams quandry
Might be debatable up until the Draft. We know he’s not an ideal fit for the 3-4, and may struggle completely if we play him at NT or DE. But he’s a good player so its hard to just up and dump him. The biggest problem is that his value might not any higher than it is now. Because of that it might be best to go ahead and try getting value for him now. What happens when he struggles all year in a 3-4 or worse, gets hurt?
It might be best to try getting the value for him now, in a very deep draft, and really building everything from the ground up. The square peg in the round hole idea is in play here. I think it might be worth the risking of trading a very good player right now because of his current value, poor fit in our system, depth of the draft and need for DT’s in 4-3’s around the league. Rebuild right.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Feb 5, 2010 11:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Agreed. There is no doubt that Williams has been one of the few bright spots on this team over the last few season, but he is not suited for this team at all anymore. Trade him while his value is highand rebuild this team.
by CanadianBillsFan on Feb 5, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Agree and disagree
I place a lot of value on effort and intensity, and that’s what Williams brings. Your point is valid.
Option 1: we keep Williams. He might be one of those effort guys that excels regardless (Kelly Gregg?). But if he doesn’t excel, his trade value tubes.
Option 2: Trade Williams, one of our bright spots. Hope that the player in return isn’t a flop.
I would move him for a second rounder, and would have to think about it for a 3rd rounder.
I agree
Both those options fit together for me.
Option 1 is what we can hope for if he stays, but it is risky. Williams can be engulfed by blockers at time, so it might be tough for him. It might be worth the risk of giving him a shot, but if it doesn’t work, his value is drastically reduced.
I agree about what value we’d have to get for a him. I’m not taking anything less than a 3rd. If Gaines Adams can go for a 2nd, so can Williams. Indy, the Giants, Houston, Tampa, maybe Minnesota, maybe Carolina, Jacksonville and Cincy could use a guy like him.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Feb 5, 2010 12:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Each and every player must be looked at from the perspective of what is there greatest value to the team now and in the future. If the Bills are truly committed to the 3-4 defense then the answer is obvious. A short-armed, 300 lb explosive penetrator, no matter how great, becomes a situational player at best. His market value now easily exceeds his asset value.
most of my posts get deleted :(
by dzil on Feb 5, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Giants or Eagles
I hate to lose a player like Williams but if we can get decent value for him. I wouldn’t count out the Giants or Eagles as trade partners. Both run a 4-3 and Jauron and Fewell are intimately familiar with Williams’ work ethic and value.
My last comment
3-4 or 4-3 needs talent—HC &DC both said they will adapt their schemes to the talent. Edwards said he will use a variation of the 3-4 and the 4-3. Many are assuming that Williams will fail in the new defense being implemented and his value will drop.
My feeling is that Williams will continue to progress and will be a force to deal with— an his value will continue to rise…
“A Bird in the hand is better than 2 in the Bush” holds true in this case.
That’s my feeling and I’m sticking to it….
As Wyatt Earp once said "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me! ~
Fair enough.
The only question is, did we just crush the bird dead in our hand by switching to the 3-4…
Mmmph rrgh prrmf! - someone with his mouth gagged
ha ha---good one
Hopefully the bird will continue to soar….
As Wyatt Earp once said "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me! ~
I agree Goose....
WIlliams is too good a football player to let go for an unknown… But I also get the feeling that he’s good enough also, to put the naysayers to sleep…. Why can’t he play the nose again??? A little of Fred Smerlas strength, and Jeff Wright’s quickness tells me he can!!!! And at 306 lbs, he’s got 36 pounds on Fred…. While I know, players are bigger now, a good football player can overcome the size equivalent…. JMHO….
Question for Der Jaeger
If the Bills were going to trade the number 9 pick, how far back do you think we should be willing to go? While I am all about stockpiling as many picks as possible, I wouldn’t want to go back too far. I feel the team needs to draft a cornerstone OT in the first round
15th overall is where I would target (Giants). Giants are a good team that had a bad year, making them a decent prospect to try to trade up to find a impact player to complete a unit or fix a weak spot. With the current circumstances, trading down would be the equivilent of getting the Giants 3rd and 4th rounders.
15th overall still makes us competitive for Bulaga, Campbell, Iupati, and Dan Williams.
This could change tomorrow though, and probably will numerous times by the time April rolls around.
Kyle Williams to Giants makes too much sense
Perrytuttle mentioned it briefly above but it needs to be emphasized more. Kyle Williams is the perfect way to open trade talks between the Giants and Bills that will greatly benefit them both.
First, there is the clear fact that the New York Giants desperately need a DT to bring their talented D-line back to its high level of play. Chris Canty, Rocky Bernard and their aging veterans did not get the job done and the Giants have made no secret of the fact that DT, LB and DB are their biggest needs.
Second, Perry Fewell is now the Giants defense coordinator. The man who coached Kyle into the impact DT that he is will now be in charge of the New York 4-3. You know both he and Kyle would love to be reunited. I’d rather hook up Perry and Kyle then send him to someone in the AFC like the Texans who will be perennial wildcard contenders until Peyton retires. So with Perry there we have an in.
Third, nearly every single mock I’ve seen this off-season and every Giants fan I’ve talked to (I’ve been in northern Jersey for 4 months now so thats quite a few) fully expects the Giants to draft a Brian Price or Dan Williams at pick 15. Rather than drafting an unknown commodity the Giants could very well be interested, especially since their d-coordinator knows everything about Kyle and how he plays, in trading away their #15 pick to us for Kyle Williams and our 2nd and 3rd. Considering all the desperate needs we have this makes sense for us too because it gives us two top 15 picks to fill two starting holes on the roster. Whether its QB / LT at 9 and Dan Williams at 15 or some other combination. Its a win – win for both teams with the Giants getting an extra second to nab a LB or DB and Kyle WIlliams. Both teams fill two starting roles.
Fourth, there is always the option of a player – player trade with the Giants. We don’t have a role for Kyle Williams, the Giants don’t have a role for Mathias Kiwanucka. Osi Umenyiora nearly demanded a trade because he doesnt want to rotate. Kiwi is a great 3rd end that the Giants can’t even use behind Osi and Tuck and he simply isnt built to play LB in a 4-3, they’ve tried. Kiwi is suited to be a great 3-4 OLB. Kyle Williams for Kiwi straight up give the Giants their starting DT and gives us a starting OLB. We then have our LB corp set at Maybin – Poz – Mitchell – Kiwi.
I think this should be a serious possibility for OBD.
"you just have to know there's always going to be adversity. None of these games are going to be easy. Nothing will be given to us" - Paul Posluszny
excuse me
and our 2nd and 3rd.
I meant second OR third. I would never give up both and that would be a bad deal.
"you just have to know there's always going to be adversity. None of these games are going to be easy. Nothing will be given to us" - Paul Posluszny
by poz on Feb 5, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
I think the Giants would go fro something more list this:
Buffalo gets the Giants 1st rounder and second rounder
NYG gets Buffalo’s 1st rounder and Kyle Williams.
oof
that would be tough to part with huh? The Giants would love that. They could grab McClain at 9 and get Kyle. We could get Dan Williams and maybe trade back into the first to get Brandon Graham or Brandon Spikes. Or use 15 on Bulaga and grab Terrence Cody.
"you just have to know there's always going to be adversity. None of these games are going to be easy. Nothing will be given to us" - Paul Posluszny
by poz on Feb 5, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
I want more picks....not less
I am not sure we need to trade Williams, but if we do, it should be for more picks, not to trade picks away to move up. I thought Nix was this draft genius? If he can’t find us the late round gems, then why is he here? And, IMO, Williams should fetch us at least a 2nd rounder.
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
im personally sick of late round gems
thats all we’ve had here for so many years. I want franchise cornerstones with our early picks for once!
"you just have to know there's always going to be adversity. None of these games are going to be easy. Nothing will be given to us" - Paul Posluszny
by poz on Feb 5, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
Why can't we get both?
This is a rebuilding project…..it is not going to happen by trading away picks. If the Bills are smart, they should be able to get 2 very good players with there 1st and 2nd picks. If they are smarter, they will make a few trades for players like Lynch, Williams (maybe), and Schobel and pick up a few more 2-3 round picks. If the Bills can’t fill some holes in this years draft with (for the sake of arguement) one 1st, two 2nds, and three or fours 3rds, they should hang it up.
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
Good Trades
Where both sides either thought they lost, or won.
Lots of fans probably wouldn’t like this trade, from both sides.
How about we give the Giants
Schobel, Stroud, Williams, Roscoe, Kelsay, and Edwards for their 1st and 2nd.
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
hahahahhaha
my God joe I dont think we could field a defense if we did that!!
"you just have to know there's always going to be adversity. None of these games are going to be easy. Nothing will be given to us" - Paul Posluszny
by poz on Feb 5, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
well, they way most people are bitching about the switch to the 3-4, they are useless to use anyway
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
All but Schobel
Read the Football Outsiders report on DE impact. You’ll want to keep Schobel after you do.
I am not down on Schobel, but the fact is he doesn't want to go through another rebuilding project
and wants to be closer to home. At this point in his career, I can’t blame him and think we should try to accommodate him.
If we end up with Vick, T.O., Richie I., and Porter….that is really pushing the dbag density limit for one team.
Williams to Texans
Hey y’all,*
Nolander mentioned it before, but we already have the functional equivalent of Williams in Okoye. Not only that, we have Shaun Cody, DelJuan Robinson, and a host of others who fit the DT mode.
I’m among those clamoring for a true NT, someone like a Dan Williams or T Cody. Now, I obviously have plenty of influence on the Texans’ front office (like none), but I can’t imagine we’d deal even a 3rd rounder for Williams.
But I also thought Frank Bush wouldn’t be Richard Smith Jr., so what do I know?
* Yes, I really use y’all.
A Texans fan. Really. No, I'm not kidding.
http://www.battleredblog.com
Linval Joseph and Jay Ross
Both the East Carolina Pirates could play as NT with Joseph also a possibility as a DE.
Joseph is 6ft6, 322lbs and Ross 6ft3, 314lbs
It’s not going to happen. Please just trust me on that.
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 8, 2010 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
The reason, which I won’t disclose, extends beyond what we might call a “usual issue.”
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 8, 2010 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Well I can't pretend that you're not being extremely confusing but ok.
by Donald Driver on Feb 9, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
LOL. Basically, I know of an ironclad reason why Pickett would never come to Buffalo, but can’t disclose it publicly so as to protect a source. Is that better? :)
Buffalo Rumblings. On Twitter.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. --Wayne Grezky" --Michael Scott
by Brian Galliford on Feb 9, 2010 6:07 AM EST up reply actions
Sounds like a personal problem that Pickett has with somebody that’s definitely expected to be here, or vice versa. Maybe it’s somebody from OSU. Maybe it’s somebody from his time in STL or GB. Heck, maybe he’s just a big Dolphins fan. My guess is an issue with Bob Sanders, given his time in GB and expertise on DL. Anyway, these things happen. I’m sure there are dozens of players that won’t accept trades to certain other teams because of previous beefs with other players or coaches. Not that big a deal. We were going to have to draft a NT at some point soon anyway. It would be nice to have one more option as far as bringing in a vet, but we still have a number of decent options. C’est la vie.
Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.

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