Losing my Patience
by CBATL32 on Mar 6, 2010 8:01 PM EST
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Let me start by saying that I had LOW expectations for free agency this year. I also don't expect us to win more than 4 games in 2010. And I usually don't get all impatient at this time of year, but I am really losing it right now. Lets see, we have gaping holes for STARTERS and QB, LT, RT, WR, NT, DE and OLB. Not to even mention how we have almost zero depth on the o line or at LB.
I didn't expect us to jump right in after the big dollar free agents. It just doesn't make sense for us because we are several years from fielding a playoff team. But, I do expect us to try and field a remotely competitive team next year. But I did expect that we'd be signing guys like Hicks, Dwan Edwards, Pashos, etc. for reasonable contracts to plug some STARTER gaps prior to the draft. Then I figured we'd pick up a few 3rd tier FAs for depth along the line and at LB.
Well, when someone like Hicks goes to Washington for 3 years/$9 million...that frustrates me. Washington is in a very similar situation as us. They go out and get Hicks and Pashos. Neither are world beaters, but they are solid, capable guys that can come in and contribute right away. Instant upgrades for reasonable deals. And neither of them are old. Where is the downside?
Why are we not doing this? The majority of the solid OT's are gone now. So we go into the draft with a huge hole there. And knowing now that with a probably rookie LT and RT (or Meredith or Bell), we'll be having the same protection problems that we've had for years.
Honestly, I don't see many other 'starters' out there that make sense for us to sign. There are plenty of 'depth' players out there, and I am sure we'll go after some of them. But I was really hoping we'd at least get 2 or 3 younger guys that could plug some 'starter' holes for us through FA. I just don't see that happening now. Maybe I am overreacting and will be pleasantly surprised. But there really aren't many guys left that I see being a good fit for us to come in and start next year. I would love Dwan Edwards, but there is about zero percent chance that we sign him.
Can we at least try to field a somewhat competitive team? I just have a feeling next year could be a 2 win season. Maybe that is what we need so we can get our franchise QB in next year's draft.
Just another great fan opinion shared on the pages of BuffaloRumblings.com.
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Pashos left Washingto without a contract
Quit, don't quit? Noodles, don't noodles? You are too concerned about what was and what will be. There is a saying: yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the "present." --Oogway
PFT reported Skins signed him
now reporting he didn’t sign. Guess he’s on his way to Cleveland now. Hmmm, Browns and Skins bringing him in, but not us. Why?
Because he’ll be 30 at the start of the season, is coming off a season-ending injury and on the back end of his career. We don’t need to get older and more injury-prone.
by Dr. Brackish Okun on Mar 6, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
We can't possibly get any younger, and injury prone; or can we.....
Why do today, when it can wait til tomorrow; the games on!
My patience ran out a long time ago.
Well, when someone like Hicks goes to Washington for 3 years/$9 million
A steal compared to what we blew on Dockery and Walker!
4 wins sounds about right.
The Missing Link in the Chan Gang
REBUILDING
We are in rebuilding mode. All the UFA’s have 6 years in the league or were so bad that they were cut by their previous team. Signing any RFA’s would result in us giving up precious draft picks, which are more critical in rebuilding. Making trades would result in dealing draft picks as well.
I don’t know what you were expecting, but our rebuilding will come through the draft and not via free agency. Currently, we are sellers, not buyers.
by Dr. Brackish Okun on Mar 6, 2010 8:21 PM EST reply actions
I agree we are rebuilding, but...
you don’t completely rebuild through the draft. That takes years and years. You have to supplement good drafts with SMART free agent pickups and SMART trades. You can’t just do it with draft picks.
You sound like you have experience owning an NFL franchise. I certainly hope so, to be so bold as to say this new staff ALREADY doesn’t know what they’re doing. If you’re so upset nothing will make you happy right now, there’s a rather simple solution: just stay away from Bills news or find a new team to support.
Buffalo Rumblings Premiere League 2009 Champion
Song recommendation of the week: U2 - Breathe
by TheAfghanTwilight on Mar 7, 2010 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Rebuilding, I love how everyone throws that word around......
especially since last year we had one of the younger teams in the NFL. Maybe we should start looking at high school players. We’ve had one backup in, and are possibly interested in a couple more. Last year we had the most inexperienced offensive line in the league, but I think we can beat that this year. Don’t try to sign any FA’s, let’s trade the decent players we have and go with all rooks; that’ll sell season tickets. Sorry, just venting, especially when I see other inferior teams doing more. Maybe it’s the beer talking, at least I got to golf today.
Why do today, when it can wait til tomorrow; the games on!
One More Thing
How come the Jets can get a 4th round pick for Kerry Rhodes but we can’t do the same (or better) for Whitner? If we are rebuilding through the draft, then why in the world would we not move guys like Whitner, Lynch, etc. that are in the last years of their contracts for draft picks?
Reply
Because it takes two teams to trade. One wants the player, and the other trades with them. Officially I’ve yet to hear if anyone’s interested. But unless you have inside info we won’t know until announced.
by buffalobacker on Mar 6, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
Dude it's the second day of free agency, calm down.
Otherwise your going to have a heart attack before the beginning of the season.
I mean did you truly expect us to be signing players like the Bear, Lions and Redskins? Cause if you did then you were the one setting yourself up for disapointment.
The more I see, the less I know.
by CanadianBillsFan on Mar 6, 2010 8:29 PM EST reply actions
I specifically said
That I didn’t expect us to be going after big name guys or going crazy early in FA. But I did expect us to target a select few guys that are capable of starting for us next year that we could get for a reasonable price. Guys like Hicks and Dwan Edwards.
Who said that we didn’t target them? For all we know they were the first two that we contacted, but they didn’t want to come here.
I think that you need to picture us this year as being in the same place as the Lions were 2 years ago, the only free agents that we will sign are the bottom of the barrel guys that no one else wants. Simply because no one worth a damn will want to come here. It sucks, it really really really sucks, but it’s the truth.
The more I see, the less I know.
by CanadianBillsFan on Mar 6, 2010 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
Too Wierd
Only b/c I said no more than a couple hrs ago to trade Whitner for a 3rd if need be, for the pick. We need ALL that we can get this year more than ever. I also feel the same w/ Roscoe, UNLESS the Chan can actually utilize his talent. Time to move on. Build through the draft while picking up some depth in FA. That is – If OBD realizes it’s begun.
ONE OL comes & goes w/o a contract & is on his way to Texas. What other FA has been ‘intimate’ w/ OBD that we are aware of? I’m still trying to be patient as it IS still early, but I can’t argue, I wished we were more aggressive than what’s NOT beeen happening so far, or at least being reported. However, that’s highly unlikely IMO…… The reporting that is…
.
Season Ticket Holder Sec: 312, Row: 15
"There's NO place like home when it's the Big Tree Inn"
Last year everyone thought we would be between 9-7 (the optimistic ones) and 6 and 10. We had a huge amount of injuries, way more than anyone else, and we finished 6 and 10. Now why do you expect us to only win 4 games this year? What has changed so dramatically? THe loss of T.O.?
We have a good secondary and probably we will not have as many injuries so I expect us to be at least 6 and 10 again.
our entire defense has changed
our defense was respectable last year, our offense was not. Now we’ve deconstructed our defense with gaping holes along the front 7. And our offense is probably worse than it was last year. Not to mention the Jets, Pats and Phins will be improved next year.
I agree that injuries really hurt us, especially on the O-line. But, we got one gift-wrapped win from the Colts and both the Jets and Dolphins will be a bit better as well. It’s still pretty early to be making predictions, but the Pats might be the 3rd best team in our division, which is saying a lot.
by Dr. Brackish Okun on Mar 7, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
I've never used it before
…But I’m thinking the term LOL is applicable.
I mean, its been less than 2 days and you don’t have any patience? The majority of the players signed were never going to be Bills’ targets due to finances or scheme fits. Maybe Artis Hicks is the only guy to say “shucks” over, but big deal…
Why would this team spend big money when its not going to win any time soon?? There’s more than enough time to fill out the roster with fringe FA’s, make potential trades and build whatever depth we can. What this team needs to do is really clean up during the draft and hit on some UDFA’s. Signing a bunch of overpriced 30 year olds does nothing for the future in reality. There’s no reason to get upset or lose any patience in what is basically day 2 of a multi-year rebuilding effort.
We’re all upset about where this team is now, based on this past regimes complete and utter failure. Getting bent out of shape about not signing a couple of free agents right away is a bit odd in perspective of that…
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Mar 6, 2010 9:40 PM EST via mobile reply actions 4 recs
okay, maybe i am overreacting, but..
Again, I am NOT saying spend big money on FAs. I am saying spend SMART money on a select few FAs that could make us competitive next year and also for future years. Are you telling me that Dwan Edwards, Artis Hicks, Jarvis Green, and Jamal Williams (for the right price) couldn’t help immediately make our team better next year, and be part of our team for the next few years and be had for a reasonable price tag? Because that is my point, we should be targeting guys like that and being aggressive in our pursuit.
Now, I may be mistaken because maybe we have been after them and they are not interested in playing for us.
what if the smart money is to not touch our holes, allow the team to get plowed over while young guys learn to play their positions, develop the o-line, get a Locker next year after an abysmal record, then grab the FA’s we need next year or as soon as the team is potentially competitive personnel-wise.
I dont believe for a second any FO would ever accept this level of failure as Ok just for the sake of draft position, but heck, it could be the best shot theyve got at a franchise QB, since Bradfords gone by 9 and Mallet and Locker are probably better than clausen.
sortof a “gotta hit rock-bottom” kinda attitude
I dont really think this is the MO at OBD, but it almost looks that way
by uPitt_BillsFan on Mar 6, 2010 10:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You said it well.
There are just not much in the way of long term solutions in free agency out there.
We get a LT at 9, then a QB has a realistic chance to develop. The OL should be #1 Priority this year along with adding some pieces for the 3-4 switch.
It drives me nuts when everyone wants to take a QB when the line still has so many questions at OT. Or sign stop gap OL guys in FA when we need to get quality draft picks and play them so when we do go get that franchise QB or that 1 or 2 FA signings we really need to get over the top, it will be worth it.
I don’t know if people forget, or aren’t old enough to remember, but one of the things that really helped Jim Kelly when he was developing into an All Pro QB, was he had 2 1st round picks in Wolford and Ritcher protecting his blindside and a 2nd rd pick in Joe Devlin manning the RT position. And while Kent Hull wasn’t a flashy 1st or 2nd rd pick, it became apparent very quickly he was quite solid.
Jim Kelly had a pretty decent line to start his NFL career.
Would he have ever developed in the player he became playing behind the Swiss cheese OL’s we have had the past 10 years?
With the FA rule changes this year, there are not many long term solutions out there on either side of the ball where we have major needs.
There's not a wide receiver who is fast enough, that J.P. Losman can't overthrow him on a fly pattern.
by The Buffalo Kid on Mar 6, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
FINALLY !!
I couldn’t have said it any better. And I don’t think any of the QB’s in this draft can be considered a franchise QB.
Recapottomus
I call it... The Avaslug!
I am the 1st and probably only official member of the David "Dr." Jones fanclub. Until I get the newsletter out, anyway.
Syracuse Basketball 2010: Big East Champs!!! G'Orange!
by UZ on Mar 7, 2010 1:10 AM EST up reply actions
select few FAs that could make us competitive next year
Why would you want the Bills to be competitive next year!? So they can go 7-9 again, miss the playoffs and get another crap-ass draft pick? Because there ain’t NO way they’re making the playoffs next season with this team, I don’t care who they sign.
I call it... The Avaslug!
I am the 1st and probably only official member of the David "Dr." Jones fanclub. Until I get the newsletter out, anyway.
Syracuse Basketball 2010: Big East Champs!!! G'Orange!
by UZ on Mar 7, 2010 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
You are making assumptions though
Are you telling me that Dwan Edwards, Artis Hicks, Jarvis Green, and Jamal Williams (for the right price) couldn’t help immediately make our team better next year, and be part of our team for the next few years and be had for a reasonable price tag?
Sure, those guys would help us, but we have no idea if OBD has interest in them, has contacted them, has been rebuffed or whatever. So far, Green and Williams haven’t been rumored to be involved with any teams, so I wonder if fans of other teams are freaking out about not bringing them in right away. I’m guessing probably not.
Yeah, we should be targeting free agents of this sort, but again, we have no idea if they’ve been contacted or not. If these players say they don’t have any interest in Buffalo, what exactly can we do about that??
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Hell K, all I want to see is some life from OBD, any life........
show us something other than a single backup. Even if they don’t sign someone, make it look like they’re interested. Ralphie said he was willing to pay a HC 10 mil, but obviously that didn’t pan out. Just make some kind of move to let us know this isn’t the Bills version of “Major League”.
Why do today, when it can wait til tomorrow; the games on!
Maybe sign a big-name older guy like Terrell Owens? A token move that shows the fan-base that the FO is trying didn’t pan out this past year and I don’t know why anybody would want something similar. We’ve been mediocre for too long. Things need to get worse before they get better.
by Dr. Brackish Okun on Mar 7, 2010 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
Things need to get worse before they get better.
QFT.
People really need to realize this. The Bills seriously haven’t been bad the past decade, they’ve been mediocre. The only options we have now are STAY mediocre (which is what the Bills have done masterfully the past decade to avoid being the dregs of the league) or have a couple of toilet years before the good times come.
I call it... The Avaslug!
I am the 1st and probably only official member of the David "Dr." Jones fanclub. Until I get the newsletter out, anyway.
Syracuse Basketball 2010: Big East Champs!!! G'Orange!
by UZ on Mar 7, 2010 9:08 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, we haven’t gone through a legit rebuilding process in over 20 years.
by Dr. Brackish Okun on Mar 7, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Question, Brian is Geronimo still around????
It would be nice to have some insight to what the FO is thinking, or if there’s any expectations.
Why do today, when it can wait til tomorrow; the games on!
Brian has said he’s not going to answer any questions about Geronimo. If he posts, he posts, just like before.
YES WE CHAN!
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by MattRichWarren on Mar 7, 2010 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Guys, Artis Hicks is not that particularly good...
He’s the epitome of “versatile.” Plays a lot of different positions but not particularly good at any of them. He can’t play LT for crap and has been a heel/turnstyle at the RT spot from everything the MN fans say on NFL radio. I don’t think he’s going to be as good as Bell since he lacks the athleticism Bell has.
Agreed w/ this post
To sum up: Who starts this year at LT, RT, QB, WR2, NT, DE, and OLB?
I agree this team needs to build through the draft, but I don’t know of any team that can find 7 self-respecting starters in one draft (and no, i’m not saying all stars – just boarder line decent starters). Buffalo should be looking at second-tier free agents (many of who are already off the market now) for those spots.
This team needs to be gutted and a youth movement is exactly what’s needed. That said, Buffalo needs 22 starters and they can’t all be rookies.
This year is going to be special.
John I.
To sum up: Who starts this year at LT, RT, QB, WR2, NT, DE, and OLB?
LT pick #9 hopefully Bulaga
RT open competition Bell, Meredith
QB open competition Edwards, Brohm, Fitz
WR 2 open competition Hardy, Steve Johnson, possible low level FA pickup.
NT 2nd rd pick, hopefully Terrence Cody, Kyle Williams rotation.
DE Stroud, Spencer Johnson
OLB Maybin, Schobel, Kawika
There's not a wide receiver who is fast enough, that J.P. Losman can't overthrow him on a fly pattern.
by The Buffalo Kid on Mar 6, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
Kawika will be inside, at least with the roster right now… and with that, we do have a hole at ILB or OLB no matter how you slice it, and Id expect a WR to be drafted somewhere in the first half of the draft if a starting caliber player falls to us… just a hunch.
A lot of ?s and no guarantees
On the hunt... Bills in the playoffs 2010
John – I wrote a whole post the other day saying how many Bills targets weren’t available. It’s not like we didn’t see this coming guys. They weren’t going to be the Bears and sign a bunch of high-priced guys,
YES WE CHAN!
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by MattRichWarren on Mar 7, 2010 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
there seems to be a gap in the two sides of this argument
One side: All the “give them another chance,” “be patient,” “benefit of the doubt” crowd keeps saying: “What do you expect? The bills were never going to sign big name free agents.”
The other side: “We didn’t want/expect Buffalo to sign big name free agents or sure fire starters, but we’re now in day three of a very thin free agent class, all the big names are gone (no problem – don’t want them), but many of the second-teir and third-teir guys are starting to go too.”
See the gap?
They weren’t going to be the Bears and sign a bunch of high-priced guys,
I’m not a proponent of this, nor is the author of this post.
Frankly, this team in 2010 is a lost cause. I know that. We all know that. But they need to at least try to field a competitve team. Building through the draft is the way to go. But the bills have so many holes on the roster, starters and depth, that they need to add some viable players in free agency. Every day that goes by, is another day wasted to do just that. That’s the only argument being made.
John I.
Every day that goes by, is another day wasted to do just that. That’s the only argument being made.
And that argument is very flawed. All FA’s are gone after day 3? Guys of prominence get signed as late as a week into the preseason in August or later. Guys get cut all the time and players become available very often. To get upset because the Bills haven’t signed some 3rd tier players after 3 days of FA is crazy. If the Bills had signed Washington and Smith would all be well? There would be a lot less impatience that is for sure and it is totally irrational.
No weekend spent pantsless is a wasted weekend.
well what if you were upset BEFORE FA started.......
and just still continued to be upset?
Would that be okay?
haha.
The only cure for a bad today is tomorrow.
by norcaliangelsfan on Mar 7, 2010 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
this free agency is different
the pool is a lot thiner, meaning players of lesser value go quicker. It’s not flawed. The longer the team waits to add players, the weaker the talent pool becomes (even more so this year).
John I.
T.O., Josh Reed, Joey Porter, and a bunch of other quality guys are still available.
YES WE CHAN!
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by MattRichWarren on Mar 8, 2010 8:10 AM EST up reply actions
There are still some quality options left
I know that Jeromey Clary (OT) is a RFA but I didn’T see anything on if he got tendered and at what level, did anyone see anything on this? I think he’s definitely worth a 6th round pick in exchange.
Another name that I did not see anything on is Jimmy Kennedy (DT), a big man that could be an excellent NT. He is a UFA and has not yet resigned with anyone.
Other interesting names still available are: Coles, Foote, Fujita
Nothing left to say... the clock is ticking...
Alright guys I gotta disagree with a lot of the comments in this thread.
Were to begin. I know, Wade Smith leaving without a contract. Smith is a depth guy spot starter. He’d have been a nice pickup but theres a lot of guy’s like Smith around the league. Not inviting Pashos in for a visit. Pashos isn’t that great. That 49ers line was bad last season and Pashos had a big part in in that. For those of us bemoaning the fact that we didn’t try to sign one of them relax. We still have plenty of targets, guy’s like Damion Macintosh, Rex hadnot,Kevin Mawae,Chester Pitts,etc. Guy’s relax we’ll bring insome people. It’s gonna be ok.
Clary received a 2nd round tender
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Nix basically came out his first press conference and said he wasn’t building this team through FA.
Why is this still surprising to anyone?
I call it... The Avaslug!
I am the 1st and probably only official member of the David "Dr." Jones fanclub. Until I get the newsletter out, anyway.
Syracuse Basketball 2010: Big East Champs!!! G'Orange!
It's not - but we do need some FA bodies.
Hard for anyone to say we dont have 20 holes that need filling whether they be starters or good depth – Brians state of the Roster articles proved that.
SO – if we bring in zero FA’s we need to hit on every draft pick in the next 3 years just to fill those holes.
My guess is that the people on this thread would just like to see a beginning of those 20 holes being filled with a couple of FA’s. It’s an understandable thing.
Personally I’m happy to wait a bit to get the right guys at the right price – but don’t be too down on people wanting to see some action. The last few weeks have been full of articles on here saying "The Bills will need to be busy and bring in a lot of FA’s – not high dollar ones, but a lot of them none the less. I guess those articles have people wanting to see “just a lil action”
"Fan ?" You want to talk about being a fan of the Bills ? Try getting up at 3 AM every Monday to watch their games knowing they'll likely lose. Do this for 18 years and then call yourself a "fan"
I’m just saying, wait until next season. It’s like people have been saying, we’re basically the Lions of 2 years ago right now in the eyes of players. What good big name guys or even mid-level guys want to join the Buffalo Bills right now?!
So really our options are load up on guys like Ko Simpson or wait it out. I know it sucks, but really the only option left is to wait it out, probably another year or three.
I call it... The Avaslug!
I am the 1st and probably only official member of the David "Dr." Jones fanclub. Until I get the newsletter out, anyway.
Syracuse Basketball 2010: Big East Champs!!! G'Orange!
by UZ on Mar 7, 2010 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
We say this every year......
I’m just saying, wait until next season
After 10 years of “wait until next season” that saying starts to lose its appeal.
The only cure for a bad today is tomorrow.
by norcaliangelsfan on Mar 7, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Find
try and find something more appealing to you then..
by buffalobacker on Mar 7, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
I have..............
its called complaining……….
but then people have a problem with that :-)
The only cure for a bad today is tomorrow.
by norcaliangelsfan on Mar 7, 2010 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
I don't, but then......
I didn’t have a problem being the only Bills fan watching the game in California, Turkey, or currently Utah. Unfortunately there haven’t been a lot of Bills fans to some of the places I’ve been, but I still wear my gear proudly. I’ve been doing this for well over 25 years, so I think I have earned the right to complain every once in a while. If others don’t like it they can pass over my comments, just like I do with some of theirs.
Why do today, when it can wait til tomorrow; the games on!
by UtahBillsFan on Mar 7, 2010 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
good call Ron........
indeed, I agree 100%
The only cure for a bad today is tomorrow.
by norcaliangelsfan on Mar 7, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
All Good
Just got a better understanding of were your coming from. Not a problem.
by buffalobacker on Mar 7, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
All true
But depth guys (and we need them too esp on D) will sign wherever an offer is made usually. Yeah – even Detroit, STL or Buffalo.
"Fan ?" You want to talk about being a fan of the Bills ? Try getting up at 3 AM every Monday to watch their games knowing they'll likely lose. Do this for 18 years and then call yourself a "fan"
FA
Lets get this right. We don’t offer Congs a contract because they have Smith coming in and he is a better obtion than Congs. So we don’t signCogs and Smith comes in and leaves without signing and heads to Washington. That was a great move!!!!!!!
He headed to Houston.
YES WE CHAN!
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by MattRichWarren on Mar 7, 2010 8:56 AM EST up reply actions
should we really care about this team at all?
haha
The only cure for a bad today is tomorrow.
by norcaliangelsfan on Mar 7, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Choices
That’s entirely up to you. haha
by buffalobacker on Mar 7, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
hell of an assumption
We don’t tender Cogs b/c we have Smith coming in? I really think they didn’t tender Cogs because there is a belief (based on more inside knowledge than any of us have) that Wood will fully recover coupled with the fact that Cogs is a penalty time-bomb waiting to explode. IMHO, there are still several 2nd or 3rd tier FA’s that can be added for depth along the OL. Quite frankly it’s time to stop panicking because nobody knows who OBD has contacted, who they will contact or what potential trade partners are being courted (Lynch & Whitner)…. it’s only day 2 of free agency…. let the plan come together before we $hit all over it. Personally, I say Kudos to OBD for keeping close to the vest and working their plan, because rest assured, that’s what they’re doing…. there not on a beach in Cabo sipping fruity drinks with umbrellas in them
"The ball is like a cold to Clifford Franklin..... Clifford Franklin the only one catchin' it....Clifford Franklin the only one comin' down wit it!"....... Clifford Franklin
by Jax Bills Fan on Mar 7, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
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