Five veteran Bills on the roster fringe
by Brian Galliford on May 27, 2010 2:14 PM EDT
in Buffalo Bills News
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PrintWith organized team activites underway and Chan Gailey's first training camp as head coach of the Buffalo Bills looming, first impressions are currently being made, and major roster decisions are soon coming to Orchard Park. Clearly, there are more than just five veteran Bills players on the fringe of making the roster; in that light, the comments section is open to your expansion on this discussion topic. For now, here are five veteran players that have an opportunity to earn their keep, but are decidedly on the bubble entering the pre-season.
QB Brian Brohm. I don't know where it's coming from, but I've read in some spots that Brohm is Buffalo's "quarterback of choice." Perhaps it's not a huge logical leap to believe that the Bills would like him to emerge, but I don't think that stems from a preference for Brohm; I think it stems from the need for a franchise quarterback to emerge from somewhere. There's a strange buzz surrounding Brohm; what most don't realize is that the buzz exists simply because he's more of an unknown commodity than Trent Edwards and Ryan Fitzpatrick. I view Brohm as the third quarterback entering camp, and with Levi Brown assured of a roster spot, there's a much stronger chance that Brohm gets cut, as opposed to earning the starting gig. (And if that motivates Brohm to have a stellar pre-season, you're welcome.)
TE Derek Schouman. Schouman was on his way to a solid season in 2009. In a Week 2 win over Tampa Bay, Schouman grabbed 6 passes for 62 yards before leaving the game with a knee injury that ended his season on the spot. In roughly six quarters' worth of football, Schouman grabbed 9 receptions for 103 yards last year. He might not have been dominant, but he'd have put up solid numbers. That said, the Bills have a clear direction at tight end with Shawn Nelson representing the future of the position, and Schouman's lack of size could make better blocking options such as Michael Matthews and Jonathan Stupar better fits for the final roster. Schouman is a player that Chan Gailey could find useful as a pass catcher, but given Nelson's presence, it's entirely conceivable that Schouman's skill set doesn't match what the team is looking for from its reserve tight ends.
OLB Chris Ellis. I kind of look at Ellis the way I look at Brohm, save the minor fact that Ellis has not yet switched teams in his professional career. You should, too. The Bills picked Ellis just 16 slots after Green Bay selected Brohm in 2008, and the two have produced on about equal footing since entering the league. The 6'4", 261-pound Ellis is transitioning to OLB in the Bills' 3-4 scheme; from there, he'll compete for reserve spots with younger, more athletic players such as Danny Batten, Antonio Coleman and even Aaron Maybin (who might not "start," insofar as that word has meaning). Buffalo wanted to get bigger and faster at linebacker; Ellis only helps them in one of those two departments. He's got an uphill climb to make this team.
ILB Keith Ellison. We just talked about Ellison this morning, so I'll keep this brief: Ellison's a poor fit for the ILB position in the new defensive scheme. He has uses as a player, particularly his pass coverage and special teams abilities, and he's a great teammate. But Ellison finds himself directly in the middle of a numbers game, and I'm betting that he ends up on the wrong side of that competition. Buffalo needs depth more than it needs specialized depth.
CB Ashton Youboty. Everyone is aware of the fact that Youboty's biggest Achilles heel at this point has been his lack of durability. In those infrequent moments Youboty has actually seen field time, he's actually been quite productive, recording an interception, two sacks and a forced fumble in very limited action throughout his career. But Youboty fell out of favor with Buffalo's previous coaching staff thanks to a questionable work ethic; perhaps a change in coaching will light a fire under Youboty, but in a loaded defensive backfield, Youboty will need to work quickly in finding a niche for himself if he plans to stay with the team for a fifth season.
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Am I misguided in believing there is a light hope that Chris Ellis could prove starter worthy this season?
"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly"
I think there’s a chance—albeit a small chance—that Ellis was miscast as a 4-3 DE and should have been a 3-4 OLB the entire time. It wouldn’t be the first time someone has flourished or stunk in a position/scheme change (e.g. Warren Sapp being awful in Oakland as a two-gap DT).
by Jeff Winters on May 27, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
where theres a chance
a Bills fan has hope! It would be really nice to get a return on that third round pick. Chris Ellis and Aaron Maybin were both drafted to fill in our need for a pass rusher – whether as 4-3 ends or 3-4 backers – and neither has been able to do that yet. Our rebuild would be sped up by an entire season or maybe more if they could both be answers.
"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly"
no-one knows
really… whoever says they know one way or another doesn’t. he hasn’t been on the field much at all. i would say 50/50, except the simple fact that he never showed anything on the field it’s probably 60/40 against.
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what worries me
is that he either hasnt seen the field for one of two reasons:
- the coaches didnt utilize him or develop him properly, which means he has to catch up
or
- he just wasnt good enough to get on the field.
Its not like we had great depth at DE for him to overcome.
"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly"
Ellis
Apparently with Schobel still laying around in Texas somewhere (seriously, when do we get to start ripping him for this lame Brett Favre routine?), Ellis got the first crack with the first team this week. I think the author above makes an excellent comparison linking Ellis with Brohm. Both highly drafted youngsters have still never shown enough to get on the field regularly in their young careers. Both players could end up starting with good camps due to a lack of talent competing with them. Both players could be out of the league by September if they’re not better than journeymen and late round picks at this stage of their career.
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I understand the skills that Nelson has, but assuming there’s no after effects of his injury, I think Schouman is most likely to be the starter. He’s not spectacular, but he’s shown some ability to produce. I’m not quite sold on Nelson yet. And I can’t see either Stupar or Matthews making the team over them, regardless of their blocking skill. Those are fringe type players that you can pick up off of the street (and in fact have).
I view Brohm as the third quarterback entering camp, and with Levi Brown assured of a roster spot, there’s a much stronger chance that Brohm gets cut, as opposed to earning the starting gig.
Thank you. I feel like I’m in the vast minority with this, but I feel like it’s something blatantly obvious.
brown could easily be a practice squad guy
no team was seeing him as their answer
I agree with your assessment of Schouman
Schouman’s biggest problem has been his inability to stay on the field. It seems as if he gets hurt every season. That being said, Schouman has a feel for finding soft spots in a zone and has good hands. In his limited play last year he showed improved blocking. He had some real pop in last years opener against New England. Unfortunately, he has not been able to stay healthy long enough to give us a real glimpse of his ability. I believe the Bills want Nelson to take the starting job, but I do not think they will hand it to him unless he earns the spot.
by WhatGoesAround on May 27, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Brohn
In your write-up on Brohn you mentioned that the Bills were looking for a franchise QB to emerge. You also mentioned the word franchise when talking about a few of the QB’s in this years draft. I hope you realize that there are only maybe six or seven franchise QB’s in the whole NFL. Just because a QB is a starter doesn’t mean he is a franchise QB
For Buffalo’s purposes, a “franchise QB” is simply a guy that could be a franchise QB, kind of like Mark Sanchez and Chad Henne. Are they currently franchise QBs? No. But they’re players to build around. Buffalo doesn’t even have one of those.
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by Brian Galliford on May 27, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i disagree
a franchise QB is essentially a guy who is the captain of the franchise. He doesnt have to be elite by any means, just a pillar of the team. I think its very safe to say that Matt Hasselbeck was the Seattle Seahawks franchise QB this decade and hes not elite. I’d also add Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, Donovan McNabb (from the last decade), Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers. Thats twelve right there.
I think guys like Tony Romo and Matt Schaub are fringe, Romo more so than Schaub who hasn’t established himself quite yet as consistent enough or healthy enough to get the franchise label.
Half the teams in the league have franchise QBs and it should be no surprise that for the most part those teams are consistently in the playoff running while those without franchise QBs tend to struggle. You dont have to be elite to be a guy the franchise can rely on and hence be the franchise guy.
"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly"
I disagree. Matt Hasselbeck, to me, was an elite QB. During their run to the playoffs with Shaun Alexander he was widely regarded as one of the best QB’s in the business after Manning and Brady.
"The one commonality in both places (Oakland and Buffalo) is an aging owner who keeps interfering too much. Ralph Wilson continually butts his nose in the football operation and tells the team who to draft"
by BillsfanfromDenmark on May 27, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I would tend to agree with you. Personally I think Hasselbeck is underrated but I think a majority of fans dont view him as elite. I also just realized I forgot Drew Brees. Wow!
"I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still be ugly"
Youboty will need to work quickly in finding a niche for himself if he plans to stay with the team for a fifth season.
Wow… cant believe its been that long?! Doesnt seem like it, but I guess it has…
I think thats pretty accurate Brian, regarding Brohm:
There’s a strange buzz surrounding Brohm; what most don’t realize is that the buzz exists simply because he’s more of an unknown commodity than Trent Edwards and Ryan Fitzpatrick.
I will admit the reason I want Brohm to play well and take over is because of that exactly that, we already know what we have in Edwards and Fitz. And its not that im a “Pro-Brohm, Anti-Edwards” guy… because if Edwards wins this battle Ill be behind him 100% … its just I hope that Brohms “untapped potentiol” is going to be greater than what we’ve seen from Edwards so far.
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QB situtation
I think edwards and brohm are unknown and will continue to be so this year as the offensive line will be at least as bad as last year. I think the sack number was 44 last year. That is 2.75 sacks per game. If a qb makes 30 attempts that means they get sacked once every ten throws and were running for their life on a good deal of other ones. It is unfair what we do to our QB’s.
Can we stop with the idea that the O-Line is going to somehow REgress this season? The reason that the line stunk last year was 20% lack of talent, 30% youth and lack of veteran presence and 50% injury. Unless they’re stuck on their 3rd string linemen again 3 weeks into the season, they won’t give up 44 sacks again.
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by UZ on May 28, 2010 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions
The reason there’s “a strange buzz” around Brohm is that he had a spectacular college career — certainly a better one than Jimmy Clauson, who so many folks wanted the Bills to draft. He then essentially bombed out in Green Bay in a situation where there was already an established starter in Aaron Rodgers and a playbook built around Rodgers’ style (which is very different from Brohm’s). It’s very possible, as Brian says, that Brohm will be the odd guy out this year and not make the roster, but the buzz about him is based on a number of objective facts and is perfectly understandable on those grounds.
This
combined with bflo’s comment in regards to the “untapped potential” vs. the known commodities we have in Edwards & Fits sums up the “buzz” surrounding Brohm perfectly. I’m kind of pulling for Brohm myself, but as bflo said, whoever wins I and I think we should back 100%. As I also agree that if the Bills don’t carry 4 QB’s and Brohm doesn’t win the job, he is most likely to be cut. And unfortunately I think the reason for that is because of his past history, as unfair as that may be.
Brohm – I don’t think he makes the roster merely because I anticipate the Bills keeping no more than three QB’s on the active roster and I don’t see how he’s going to outperform either Edwards or Fitzpatrick as depressing as that setence sounds. As far as Levi Brown, I think he’ll get the slight nod over Brohm, because he’s “their guy” meant in the sense that they drafted him and that he has intriguing tools to work with for a guy like Chan Gailey.
Derek Schouman – I think he just makes the roster. I know a lot of people and rightfully in all likelihood will point at the fact that we’re most likely to run a very run-oriented offense this first year in particular; this of course would ostensibly mean that the Bills will keep TE’s on the roster with the exception of Nelson, of course, who are efficient at blocking. Michael Matthews and Jonathan Stupar would seem to be the two incumbents in that category, but this being said, I still believe Schouman is a far better football player than either of them and if he gains some pounds and emphasizes blocking during OTA’s and training camp, I believe he’ll make the roster.
Chris Ellis – A guy with a lot of intriguing tools, for example very good size, solid athlete, solid run-stopper (at least at VT) and good pass-rushing upside. The problem, however, has been that he has never managed to translate his skills to the pro level and quite frankly I’ve received no indication from anything I’ve seen, heard or read that he’ll change as far as that goes. Of course, one could hope that he’ll be our “Vernon Davis” meaning going from what everybody considered a bust to a terrific investment. Count me skeptical and I don’t believe he makes the roster.
Keith Ellison – As much as my mind wants to believe he’s not going to make the final roster, something tells me he’ll find a way to stick around for another year. What he has got going for him is his experience, his work-ethic, his no-nonsense attitude and approach, a solid special teamer and solid in coverage. We all realize that he’s a pretty atrocious fit in the 3-4, because his 6-0 229 pound frame is a far better fit in a Cover 2 system, but we’re pretty thin on LB-depth and barring any remarkable trade involving, say, Shawne Merriman, I think Ellison will manage to make the 53-man roster.
Ashton Youboty – I really believe Ashton could be one of the players that benefits a lot from a change of coaching staff; of course his positions coach is still Eric Catavolos, but I only view that, quite frankly, as a bonus. He has very good size, good speed, good physicality, OK playmaking ability and is a solid ST’er from what I saw in his limited action the last two seasons. We all like to talk about the great depth that the Bills have in their defensive backfield and I would absolutely agree with that for the most part. However, at CB after McGee, McKelvin and Florence, I think everything is basically up for grabs. Reggie Corner did nothing to impress me last year at all and to me it seemed like he went backwards in his development. That USC-CB who picked off two passes in last year’s last game against the Colts is by no means a lock to make the final roster nor is for that matter Ellis Lankster, though I’m very intrigued by his play in the preseason last year.
My point is that I could very easily see Youboty making the final roster because we’ll most certainly keep five CB’s on the roster; in fact I think he makes the final roster.
"The one commonality in both places (Oakland and Buffalo) is an aging owner who keeps interfering too much. Ralph Wilson continually butts his nose in the football operation and tells the team who to draft"
by BillsfanfromDenmark on May 27, 2010 3:56 PM EDT reply actions
How is Levi Brown "assured of a roster spot"?
I don’t think there are many Bills assured of a roster spot this year and I have trouble believing a 7th round draft pick is assured of anything.
Is the rationale behind him being “assured a roster spot” based on the assunption the Bills will cut the lower rated of Edwards/Fitz, or they would cut Brohm if he fails to win the starting spot because he would not merit a chance to develop?
I have no problem with keeping Brown if he shows potential. I’m just curious about the thought process.
I think this is a fair question
There may not ever be such a thing as an assured roster spot when you have a new coaching regime. I can see Brohm getting cut in two circumstances.
First, if Fitz or Trent wins the QB battle, the team decides it wants a veteran QB, AND Brown shows more promise than Brohm.
Second, the coaches decide after watching Brohm, that he has little potential to become a solid starting QB and he’s not worth putting the effort into developing.
If either of these things happens, Brown is on the team. If neither happens, I wouldn’t be shocked to see the bills try to stick him on the practice squad. Is that a risk? Sure, but if you want to keep a veteran backup and you think Brohm has more potential than Brown, you have to keep Brohm.
At this point how anyone can say that any one of these guys has a better chance to make the roster than anyone else is beyond me. I know there has only been the rookie camp and the three days of ota’s, but every QB has had just about equal snaps with the ones, two’s, and three’s with the exception of Brown. I would not be shocked to see any of the QB’s not on the 53 man roster come week one.
Brown is the pet project of Nix and Gailey. I’ve heard rumors that they had a third-round grade on him. He’s not going anywhere.
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by Brian Galliford on May 28, 2010 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions
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by MattRichWarren on May 29, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d imagine they fear losing him to another team if he’s stashed on the practice squad. He was the only QB chosen by this new regime, either via FA or the draft. That means they obviously are rather interested in developing him for use in Buffalo.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on May 28, 2010 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions
John McCargo and Corey McIntyre
How are these vets not included in the article? Have we already written JM off? Considering he was a #1 pick back with Marv, and we already tried to trade him with the last regime, most fans are done with him, is George Edwards done with him too?
Will Chan use a FB in the offense? We’ve seen some OC’s use TE’s like Schouman as the back up TE. McIntyre can be replace on ST’s with a back up LB.
My guess is neither of these guys make the final 53.
If they like Ellison enough...
is it possible they try and move him to another position? I know safety is stacked, but what about FB? I realize McIntyre is in the fold and showed a bit the last game of the season, but I have to wonder how Ellison would transition to FB.
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by TheAfghanTwilight on May 28, 2010 7:38 AM EDT reply actions
I just don’t see how Schouman makes the roster. Too bad cause he’s a nice guy.
Ellis has been rotating in with the first team at OLB. Obviously that would change if Aaron Schobel was there but I need to hear about 94 in order to say Ellis is on or off the team.
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