Why have two kicking specialists?

by gregeng on Aug 22, 2010 1:29 PM EDT

I have never understood why teams needs a kicker and a punter.

Plenty of rugby players can punt as far and as high as Brian Moorman and kick as accurately as Ryan Lindell, or any other kicker or punter.

Why not NFLers?

Discuss.

Another question, are you allowed to dropkick restarts or does it have to be a placekick? Especially for onside kicks a drop kick would be very effective at getting the height and hang time required to allow the kicking team to get under the ball.

Thanks

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Onside kicks

I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure dropkicks couldn’t work for onsides. The receiving team can call for a fair catch until the ball hits the ground on a kickoff. Therefore, a high hanging kick could not be recovered unless the receiver drops the ball (and he couldn’t be hit to make him drop it). That’s why you try for the immediate drive into the ground with a high bounce.

You could use the drop kick for regular kickoffs, but I don’t know if you could get the same distance. It would probably work better after safeties assuming your kicker can get a true bounce off the drop (because I think you’re not supposed to be able to use a tee after a safety, so that would probably be ideal in that situation).

by uncbill on Aug 22, 2010 2:28 PM EDT reply actions

Thanks

I didn’t know that the ball has to hit the ground and that would explain why the hanging short ball is never used

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by gregeng on Aug 22, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Wait

I’m pretty sure the receiving team can NOT call for a fair catch on a kickoff, regardless of the ball hitting the ground. So that doesn’t explain the short hanging ball not being used. That is one area where I think someone is going to exploit when they figure out how to do it. Imagine if a team could consistently kick to about the 35 yard line, with enough air under the ball to allow your guys to get under it and create turnovers. I’d guess the short field that you give up would be worth it if you made 25% of the kicks turn into fumbles.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/kickoff

A kickoff is illegal unless it travels 10 yards OR is touched by the receiving team. Once the ball is touched by the receiving team or has gone 10 yards, it is a free ball. Receivers may recover and advance. Kicking team may recover but NOT advance UNLESS receiver had possession and lost the ball.

Responding to this statement:

Plenty of rugby players can punt as far and as high as Brian Moorman and kick as accurately as Ryan Lindell, or any other kicker or punter.

I highly doubt it. In fact, that’s either a ridiculous over-statement on behalf of rugby players, or an insult to NFL kickers and punters.

I like the creativity of the post, though, gregeng!

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by Undee on Aug 22, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions

No, you can

This is old (2004), but in this Q&A (4th question) in the Chicago Trib, former ref Jerry Markbreit says you can:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/cs-040915jerrymarkbreitsanswers,0,2450660.story

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen upbacks (who are usually LBs, DL/OLs, TEs) fair catch chipped kickoffs more recently than that.

by uncbill on Aug 22, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I’m almost positive that I’ve seen upbacks fair catch kickoffs as well. Also, you can do it in Madden, which isn’t completely meaningless.

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by kaisertown on Aug 22, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Somewhat related to this is whether the upback who fair catches a kickoff can be hit afterwards. This a long time ago, but I remember a Superbowl (49ers vs. Dolphins, I think, Marino’s 1st (and only?) Superbowl), the upback for the Dolphins fair caught a kickoff and was allowed to be hit. He fumbled and it was recovered by SF.
But rules may have changed since then.

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by thefourwinds on Aug 22, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions

I think I was wrong, then, about the fair catch on a kickoff. Thanks, uncbill and kaisertown. thefourwinds, isn’t the definition of a fair catch that you are protected from a hit?

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by Undee on Aug 22, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Couldn’t tell you. I just remember what I remember, and that game was a long time ago.

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by thefourwinds on Aug 23, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions

I havent played rugby for some years

but as a junior i could put an “up and under”, a punt similar to an american football style one, 20m and place kick accurately from a similar distance.

If you watch a rugby match you will see players punt the ball 70m, although without the hang time of an NFL kick, put high kicks 30m or 40m away and place kick from the halfway line and from the whole width of the pitch.

and remember a rugby ball is heavier and less stream lined than an american football

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by gregeng on Aug 22, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions

It's not a bad idea

but for whatever reason it hasn’t worked. Tony Meola was the US World Cup goalkeeper in 1994. He kicked with the Jets for a few games, but I think he just did kickoffs. Darren Bennett was a former Aussie Rules player, and he was the toughest punter ever (got a few unnecessary roughness calls, I think), but he just punted. I think McBriar for Dallas is a former Aussie Rules guy too, but he just punts as well. Lawrence Tynes and Rhys Lloyd are both Brits, but just do place kicking.

by uncbill on Aug 22, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Meola was also an amazing drop-kicker (with a soccer ball at least). Used to watch him do it in his college days at UVA.

2010 Bills' truth in advertising: "Look out Cleveland, this year we score 6!" - bluecollarbuffalo

by thefourwinds on Aug 22, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions

and remember a rugby ball is heavier and less stream lined than an american football

True, so the streamline makes it a harder ball to control. American style footballs can hook more prominently.

"Football's gotta be dangerous. It's gotta be labor and pains." -Deacon Jones

by Undee on Aug 22, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Never understood it either. Most CFL teams only have 1 specialist as well.

I think that there is only 1 CFL team that has two, the Hamilton Tiger-Cats, and thats only because Sandro DeAngelis can’t punt but is one of the best kickers in the league.

Plus in the CFL any player can drop kick the ball at any time. Only catch is that it becomes a live ball and either side can recover it. It’s mostly used for trick plays.

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by CanadianBillsFan on Aug 22, 2010 3:54 PM EDT reply actions

Also in the CFL there is no plastic holder for the ball on kickoffs, I’m pretty sure that someone has to hold the bll for the kicker and the ball is directly on the ground.

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by CanadianBillsFan on Aug 22, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I think it’s because kicking is just that important. Teams punt four or five times per game and the difference between the best teams and worst teams is around 6-7 yards per punt (that’s including returns and touchbacks) That really adds up over the course of a season. It’s essentially the same as having your RBs average half to three quarters of a yard per carry more than the opposing team.

There are always teams struggling to find reliable kickers. There were five teams last year that couldn’t make 70% of their FGs. Us Bills fans have been spoiled by Lindell’s ability to always hit inside 40, but plenty of teams give up points with the occasional miss on what should be automatic kicks. How many NFL punters can hit a 50+ yard FG and how many can hit 75% of their 40-49 yard attempts?

It makes sense for NFL teams to specialize the positions because being a little better at one is worth that extra roster spot.

I think the specialization is also a product of the way football is done in high schools and college here in the states. I went to high school with the punter for the Titans (formerly of the Broncos and played at Toledo in college) and I can tell you that he wasn’t even the teams kicker in high school. And we’re talking about a school in the suburbs with 900-1000 students in the whole school. We’ve got a D1 punter who later goes on to play in the NFL and he didn’t even do kicks here because he wasn’t the best kicker on the team. Colleges can recruit so many players and carry so many guys on the roster that the best kicker or punter on the team is rarely the best at the other job, so things stay specialized.

Using the same player has been done before. Atlanta gave it a shot with Michael Koenen a couple years ago, but both his punting and kicking suffered and he struggled as a kicker so much that they replaced him just a month or two into the season. He’s still their punter. Alex Henery is currently one of the best kickers and punters in college football. He plays for Nebraska. Indy’s punter and kickoff guy, Pat McAffee was both a kicker and punter at West Virginia.

I think if there were a player who was good enough to be above average in the league at both kicking and punting that a team would be happy to let him do both. But I don’t think that player currently exists in the NFL and teams are unwilling to use a below average player as a kicker or punter to save a roster spot.

by kaisertown on Aug 22, 2010 6:34 PM EDT reply actions

Agreed, I think it would take its toll on the player’s leg over the course of the season/career as well.

One of my favorite college players, Clemson’s Chris Gardocki, was in the top 10 in Div 1 NCAA in both kicking and punting two years straight, but only punted in the NFL.

It might also have to do with a team already having a guy who can do one really well, and sticking with him, while they bring in another guy who might have been good at both in college (like Gardocki), but is only asked to do one from then on.

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by thefourwinds on Aug 22, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions

well said Kaiser

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by poz on Aug 22, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions

agreed

"Football's gotta be dangerous. It's gotta be labor and pains." -Deacon Jones

by Undee on Aug 22, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Would you rather have

an extra 3rd. string linebacker on the team have a kicker/punter who is decent at both.

OR

no third string linebacker. a great kicker and a great punter.

I would easily pick the latter, as I am sure NFL teams see it.
The extra roster spot is not worth not having specialists.

by Xaviermw on Aug 22, 2010 7:25 PM EDT reply actions

I think it’s also a matter of injuries. What if your kicker/punter is hurt. Now you have to find another guy with talent at both kicking and punting, and you might be looking at a big drop off at one of them. With two specialists if your kicker goes down, your punting doesn’t need to drop off as well, and vice versa.

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by RickStonetree on Aug 22, 2010 8:03 PM EDT reply actions