Bills vs. Jets: Notes From The O-Line, Week 17
by Ron From NM on Jan 3, 2011 12:29 PM EST
in Buffalo Bills News
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PrintWow. Another stellar week turned in by the Buffalo Bills, mercifully the final one of the dreadful 2010 campaign. This game had it all: yo-yo right tackles, pitiful yards per attempt rushing, spectacularly bad blitz pick ups by skill position guys, turnovers galore, woeful production against the blitz, seemingly half-hearted effort by a number of players and coaching decisions that seemed into indicate that Chan Gailey wasn't overly interested in winning.
If you're not taking anti-depressants, jumping to the rest might not be such a good idea...
Meanwhile, Eric Wood turned in his best performance at center. His draft class (and inappropriate humor target) mate Andy Levitre looks solid on paper as well - except that each of Levitre's three bad plays (two runs, one pass) were all killed plays. It was that kind of day for pretty much everyone on the team; when things went bad for a guy, they went really bad. Chad Rinehart, who had an impressive first half against the Pats (damn my recorder for not, um, recording the second half of that game), slammed back down to earth in New Jersey. Amazingly, the yo-yo situation at right tackle combined for zero bad run plays.
| Individual Run Grades - Week 17 | |||||
| Player | Good | Decent | Bad | Killed | Grade |
| Bell, D. | 1 | 17 | 0 | 0 | 76.1% |
| Levitre, A. | 4 | 12 | 2 | 2 | 77.2% |
| Wood, E. | 6 | 11 | 1 | 0 | 80.6% |
| Rinehart, C. | 1 | 15 | 2 | 1 | 73.9% |
| Wrotto, M. | 1 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 78.3% |
| Pears, E. | 1 | 11 | 0 | 0 | 76.7% |
| Individual Run Grades - 2010 season | |||||
| Player | Good | Decent | Bad | Killed | Grade |
| Bell, D. | 33 | 295 | 25 | 6 | 75.5% |
| Levitre, A. | 85 | 227 | 23 | 7 | 78.7% |
| Wood, E. | 73 | 209 | 23 | 4 | 78.4% |
| Reinhart, C. | 14 | 57 | 8 | 3 | 76.5% |
| Wrotto, M. | 17 | 147 | 25 | 6 | 74.2% |
| Pears, E. | 1 | 12 | 0 | 0 | 76.5% |
Last week, Gailey chose to abandon the run for no clear reason. Against the Jets, there was good reason not to try to run - it simply wasn't working. The Bills averaged 6.0 yards per attempt through the right B gap, but that was based on exactly one run. Given a few more cracks at it, it seems probable that that average would have dropped to roughly the same 2.0 yards-per-attempt seen in other gaps. To make matters worse, it's not like Buffalo was facing New Jersey's A-Team.
| Run Direction Success, Week 17 | |||
| Gap | Att | Yds | YPA |
| Left C | 2 | 3 | 1.5 |
| Left B | 2 | 4 | 2.0 |
| A | 9 | 22 | 2.4 |
| Right B | 1 | 6 | 6.0 |
| Right C | 4 | 4 | 1.0 |
| Run Direction Success, 2010 season | |||
| Gap | Att | Yds | YPA |
| Left C | 86 | 366 | 4.3 |
| Left B | 30 | 147 | 4.9 |
| A | 102 | 335 | 3.3 |
| Right B | 42 | 128 | 3.1 |
| Right C | 101 | 446 | 4.4 |
As you can see below, Buffalo's linemen combined to kill 4 of 29 (13.8%) pass plays. When almost one of seven plays is subverted by your own team, you're just not going to have a good day, even if you aren't effectively a rookie signal caller. Even more troubling for Brian Brohm was that each of the nine bad pass plays (most of which led to Brohm being smacked) were on separate downs - 31% of pass plays featured at least one linemen making a mistake. Rinehart demonstrated an unsettling propensity for allowing defenders to quickly shoot right past him. While his physicality is just what Gailey is after, he may find himself in a dogfight with Geoff Hangartner in training camp for the right guard position next July.
| Individual Pass Grades, Week 17 | |||||||
| Player | Good | Decent | Bad | Killed | Sack | Help | Grade |
| Bell, D. | 0 | 26 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 73.1% |
| Levitre, A. | 0 | 28 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 74.3% |
| Wood, E | 1 | 28 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 75.7% |
| Rinehart, C. | 0 | 26 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 72.9% |
| Wrotto, M. | 0 | 9 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 75.0% |
| Pears, E. | 1 | 17 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 74.0% |
| Individual Pass Grades, 2010 season | |||||||
| Player | Good | Decent | Bad | Killed | Sack | Help | Grade |
| Bell, D. | 7 | 514 | 45 | 17.5 | 8.5 | 43 | 73.7% |
| Levitre, A. | 11 | 513 | 33 | 10.5 | 1.5 | 0 | 74.3% |
| Wood, E. | 17 | 431 | 24 | 6.5 | 1 | 0 | 74.7% |
| Rinehart, C. | 3 | 85 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 74.4% |
| Wrotto, M. | 6 | 224 | 28 | 8 | 1.5 | 17 | 73.3% |
| Pears, E. | 1 | 22 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 73.5% |
I plan to do a series of posts on linemen individually, in which I will sum up their seasons. If I'm really clever, I will con Brian into helping me build some charts that include comprehensive tables for each lineman. You can see above the season averages; it would be more than a little tedious to go back through all of my ramblings to put together a chart showing either progress, regression or (more likely) ups-and-downs each lineman experienced throughout this long season of futility.
Off the topic of the line, Der Jager touched on something in his post that bears repeating. Tight end play has been abysmal. Granted, Gailey doesn't tend to get great production from tight tends. He does, however, keep a number on the roster in order to boost the run game and help in pass protection. Shawn Nelson (injured), Jonathan Stupar, David Martin, Scott Chandler and Mike Caussin (who?) aren't getting the job done. Stupar stood out this week due to his ineptness in pass protection on several different plays. He also completely telegraphed running plays on at least two occasions by moving backwards slightly when motioning back to the formation - shades of Trent Edwards and that weird low hands gesture in 2009.
Buddy Nix has said that the team needs more weapons. Uh-huh. Last year he said he really liked C.J. Spiller and then selected - wait for it - C.J. Spiller. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Brian's mock pick of A.J. Green come to pass followed in the second or third round by a tight end... trenches be damned.
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If I’m really clever, I will con Brian into helping me build some charts that include comprehensive tables for each lineman.
I would be glad to assist, but only if I can get a firm commitment that you’re going to spell Chad Rinehart’s last name correctly from now on. ;)
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
@BrianGalliford
by Brian Galliford on Jan 3, 2011 12:59 PM EST reply actions
It’s not that we dont pay attention to the trenches…
In the last two drafts, 5/7 of our picks in rounds 1-3 are on o-lineman or d-lineman.
In free agency in 2010, something like half (9 of 18 or so?) signees were o-lineman.
At this rate we will have to ONLY draft lineman to get a decent crew together…
Anxiously anticipating the “Brian approved” charts.
by Buffalo for Eternity on Jan 3, 2011 1:06 PM EST reply actions
All of these charts are Brian approved, by the way. I edit every post here. :)
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
@BrianGalliford
by Brian Galliford on Jan 3, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
no wonder....
I’ve never had a front page story!!!! ;-)
Went to my first "BB" meeting today... When I stood, introduced myself, and admitted I was a Billsaholic, the other members threw beer cans at me!!
Ron, how did the o-line look against Miami?
I might have missed this report but couldnt find it. Thats a pretty active solid front 7 and I don’t remember a lot of pressure.
How much do you think the QB matters for these protection breakdowns. This game in particular the o-line just looked confused about who to block and Brohm didn’t look like he knew where the pressure was going to come from. Seemed to be a cluster …. from the top down (rather than all of these guys just suddenly looking terrible).
Geoff Hangartner and Ryan Fitzpatrick
The key and ignition to pass protection and run blocking. Remove one and you’ll here a squeak, remove both and there could be a crash. Just my opinion though.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
I think your right...
Woods has done well at the position, but we miss Hangs line calls..
Went to my first "BB" meeting today... When I stood, introduced myself, and admitted I was a Billsaholic, the other members threw beer cans at me!!
Hang stated that he really didn’t make the line calls once Fitz took over, it was almost exclusively Fitz organizing them.
May God have mercy upon the opponents of the Buffalo Bills because WE WILL NOT!!!
by TexasBillsFanatic on Jan 3, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Immediately after the Miami game I set my recorder to capture the Pats game (only halfway through thanks to my feeble technical skills…) and drove to El Paso to catch a flight to Seattle. As I was vacationing in the spectacularly beautiful Pacific Northwest I didn’t get to the Dolphins game until well after the Patriots game had been played. Having done these little write ups for a while I’ve come to understand that there’s little that’s interesting to people about games a week or two old. So, I didn’t do write ups for the Dolphins and the half of the Pats game that I had available. I did still go through them.
……………………….run………………….pass
Bell………………..75.0………………….73.5
Levitre……………76.5………………….74.4
Wood……………75.0………………….76.3
Rinehart………..74.2…………………..75.6
Wrotto………….72.7……………………72.5
It wasn’t a good outing for the line and it showed up particularly in the lack of success the Bills had running the ball. When 3.1 yards is the best gap average (A gap) on the day you know that the team wasn’t imposing their will on the defense. Nearly 20% of run plays were killed by offensive line miscues. At least one lineman had a bad play on 10 different pass plays, just about 1/3 of attempts.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
thx ron, i have been awaiting this one
your report is my favorite maesure of success (i woul dhav eblown my brains out if i followed W-L record with this team) for the bills
Call me crazy, but I thought Andy Levitre had a mistake prone season towards the final portions of the year. He seemed to commit a lot of penalties and lose focus. I suppose its understandable for losing to get to a young player but Levitre needs to re-focus himself in my opinion.
I hope those of us in the anti-“Demetrius Bell is the future crowd” can stop being chastised for apparently picking on our beloved LT. When he’s getting helped on 43 pass plays and still giving up 8.5 sacks, 17.5 killed plays and 45 bad plays and God knows how many yellow flags you simply can not tell fans that they’re picking on him. Hes doing his job very poorly. Its disheartening that we have the third pick but will not have a Joe Thomas or Jake Long of our own to go ahead and draft. What a wonderful way to lessen the sting of not getting Luck than to get a dominant offensive tackle to pair with Andy and Eric as a building block.
It would appear that Nix’s tactic of picking up other people’s trash and trying to find a gem has its limitations after all. I’ve been no doubt intrigued by Kraig Urbik and Chad Reinhart but in the end, as Ron alluded to, will either be able to really displace Geoff Hangartner? I’d say probably not. Even more, we certainly did not find a RT this way. No matter how bad we needed even passable level of play at RT we couldn’t find one – not from Cornell Green, not from Cordaro Howard, not from Mansfield Wrotto and not from the Pear. Its a shame that Ed Wang doesn’t have what it takes to play at RT because this would have been a nice solution to at least try out. I know Ed Wang was hurt all year but he did make some appearance at guard when he was needed at our absolute thinnest and I’ve got to wonder why he was drafted if he couldn’t be counted on to even try and be better as a bookend at RT than the rotation we had going there. Even if its not his natural position, even if hes not supposed to be build to handle RT duties, if your going to use a 5th round pick on an OT he should be able to get in there and try and be better than the Howard, Green, Wrotto, Pears debacle. The good news is that it seems like we should find in the 2nd or 3rd round a guy who can start at RT in this draft and who knows, maybe eventually transition over to LT.
To me, the pride of the Buffalo offensive line has been, and as of right now only is, Eric Wood. He gets overlooked in all the excitement over Ryan Fitzpatrick and Stevie Johnson offensively this season but in my opinion, Eric Wood has been one of my favorite improvement examples of the 2010 season. The guy was coming off a horrendous injury, a really really horrible break, and came out and flashed dominance and the potential to be one of the best centers/guards in football from time to time. He seemed to be the driving force in negating Vince Wilfork, Haloti Ngata, and Kong Suh and different points in the season and has really begun to show that where he is blocking the line will move in the direction we want it to. I shudder at how good he can look when he is hopefully not playing in pain next season. He is a mean man, and a great blocker and I see Pro Bowls galore in his future. What a joy to watch he has been this year and if your asking this humble fan, more than anyone else on the offense, this guy is the cornerstone building block we should be constructing our offense around. And don’t let my early complaints of Levitre fool you, he has a chance to be great himself and at the very least, he and Wood should be a great pair for a while but Wood is a stud.
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 2:03 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Totally agreed on Wood. On Bell, please be aware that Ron’s decision to award him responsibility for 8.5 sacks is highly controversial. Other observers, including the sportswriters on the Buffalo News, have the total close to zero.
As for Wang, the fact that he couldn’t even get a snap at RT after recovering from his injury even though the Bills were desperate at the position indcates that he likely has no future on the team. A big mistake to waste a fifteh-round pick on him (as a number of us were saying at the time). Makes one wonder about Nix’s judgement regarding o-linemen
On Bell, please be aware that Ron’s decision to award him responsibility for 8.5 sacks is highly controversial. Other observers, including the sportswriters on the Buffalo News, have the total close to zero.
To be honest, I find that any attempt to declare zero sacks on Bell to be highly controversial. He had two by my count on Sunday alone. Im not sure what anyone is watching when they say he has zero sacks given up. Yesterday he totally missed an assignment early that led to a Brohm sack and then he neglected to pick up his blitzer that led to a sack-fumble in the second. Considering that Ron goes back and watches every single snap and that most of these sportswriters do not, coupled with the sacks my eyes are seeing pretty blatantly leads me to find Ron’s analysis by far the most convincing. Do you believe he has zero sacks based on what you’ve seen Mack?
As for Wang, the fact that he couldn’t even get a snap at RT after recovering from his injury even though the Bills were desperate at the position indcates that he likely has no future on the team.
This is just so upsetting to me. If we are going to pass on an offensive tackle early, you’d hope the team would have had a really good idea of which later round talent they liked at the position. I would like to hope that Wang can bounce back and that there is some excuse (like injury) but its so hard to convince myself of that right now.
Makes one wonder about Nix’s judgement regarding o-linemen
Wasn’t it Chan and not Buddy who came out and said “we want to get bigger on the line”? I wonder if it was coach’s way of sending the GM a message.
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think its interesting that Bell’s actual sacks are almost always attributed to screwed up assignments, not getting manhandled. At least in this game I feel like they were assignment based. I recall at least one of the earlier ones in the year (Miami or Green Bay it was the same). I’ve only seen him overpowered a few times (Jared Allen comes to mind).
To me this is what gives me optimism for the kid. When Fitz is back there, he makes much fewer assignment mistakes (along with the rest of the line) and the whole line looks better because of it. When Edwards or Brohm was back there the line was laughable. And its not just skill, its mental stuff.
I’m pretty sure over half of Bell’s sacks came from three or four games, where Edwards and Brohm were at QB or the center position was in disarray (Minnesota). Over the other 12-13 games he had ~3 sacks. Inconsistent I agree, but not incapable. I would never argue Bell is perfect, but he put together a nice stretch of games where his mistakes were limited, unfortunately when the wheels come off they come off in bunches. The fact he had some bad games doesn’t make anyone right. It just makes the answer murky. He’s not good enough to overcome these organizational breakdowns, that seems clear.
As for Levitre, I totally agree, this is a reason some people feel Bell gets picked on, the guards we tend to ignore and the false starts/random penalties on him seemed to add up over the second half. Maybe it was the gelling process from when Hang went down, but I seem to remember it pre-dating that.
Bell’s sacks:
With Fitz: 4.5 (Chiefs, Vikings, Browns, Dolphins)
Edwards/Brohm: 4: (Dolphins, Packers, Jets)
Bell tends to have trouble with guys who are both fast (like Maybin) and have moves they use their speed to set up (unlike Maybin). He’s generally not bull rushed into the QB but can lose leverage at times.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
As Ron noted his sacks seem to be spread out pretty consistently over the season but what worries me even more than his sacks are the plays where he doesnt give up the sack but causes a play to go haywire because he gets beaten so soundly.
It seems to me, whether its being overpowered or not, that Bell loses his feet or simply gets tossed out of the way by guys with good rushing moves. Whether its a physical or mental thing Im not sure – but its a thing. He just seems overwhelmed, consistently, and our lack of a good tight end just exasperates our edge blocking issues, in addition to our lack of a RT because whoever is there also needs to be assisted with their assignments.
Yea, Im not sure what went wrong with Andy but like you said, I also remember it predating the Hang injury. Could it be just frustration or something worse?
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
As Ron noted his sacks seem to be spread out pretty consistently over the season
I dont think thats what Ron noted. He said 4.5 over the 13 games with Fitz, and 4 over the 3 games without him.
"I'd like to thank the good Lord for making me a Yankee. And specifically, not a Buffalo Bill."
-Joe Dimaggio
by JPH on Jan 3, 2011 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
well
he noted that the 8.5 came in 7 games. Thats half of the games giving up a sack.
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
True. But half the sacks came in games where there was a communication problem of sorts (which was my point). Otherwise it looks like 3-4 sacks in 12-13 games. I was noting the concentration of sacks in games were there were contributing factors to assignment problems.
In fact if you note the games where Hang was out (Vikes, Browns and Dolphins) or another QB started (Edwards/Brohm), we’ve got him down to 1 sack in 10 games or so.
I’m not making excuses — if he can’t perform when players are moved around thats a problem. But it might be a different problem than some other things.
Interesting
In fact if you note the games where Hang was out (Vikes, Browns and Dolphins) or another QB started (Edwards/Brohm), we’ve got him down to 1 sack in 10 games or so.
Very interesting point grey and something I’ll have to keep a mental note of. Perhaps you are on to something there. All I know is he makes me cringe more than any other player on our o-line on Sundays but thats a valid point you note.
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
That’s assuming that those 8.5 sacks were real sacks that should be attributable to him. I remember watching a game about midway through the season when Steve Tasker was doing the commentary. On two occasions Bell’s guy broke free after a while and sacked Fitz, but each time Tasker noted that Fitz had held onto the ball way too long because his receivers were covered and that it was a “coverage sack” not attributable to the o-line. I watched the video of the sacks in slow-motion and it was clear that that was what happened. But then to my surprise Ron called them both Bell’s fault. So that’s 2 of the 8.5 that I think are clearly a mistake, and it leads me to question whether Ron has made similar mistakes since he does not have the benefit of seeing the entire field of play.
On the zero sacks figure, that came from the Buffalo News reporters who cover the Bills (mainly Mark Gaughn and Allen Wilson) about two or three weeks ago. Gaughn did a piece responding to readers’ questions and, when asked how Bell was doing this year, responded that he seemed to be faring pretty well and that they had been keeping track of his performance and hadn’t assigned him so much as one sack to date. Maybe we should dismiss their count, but Allen Wilson is a former OT himself and played for a Division I college, so he should know something about how to judge when a guy gives up sacks. Gaughn recently served as head of the national association of journalists who cover the NFL, and he strikes me as one of the best sports reporters I have ever encountered, so his opinion also carries some weight.
I frankly haven’t kept careful track of Bell’s sacks myself. All I’m saying is that Ron’s number is in sharp disagreement with that of others who have also been counting, and that I flatly disagree with 2 of the 8.5 — having seen those with my own eyes. I would guess the actual number of sacks that should be attributed to Bell in 2010 is probably somewhere between 2 and 4.
I for one....
am anxious to see what Bell can do after a good offseason of strength conditioning. He didn’t get that last year due to the injury, and unfortunately, may not this offseason due to the CBA…
Went to my first "BB" meeting today... When I stood, introduced myself, and admitted I was a Billsaholic, the other members threw beer cans at me!!
Exactly
I do not know why people seem to forget or dismiss this aspect. His recovery from surgery was timely but unable to do any heavy lifting until June. I think an off-season of proper conditioning may be the solution to his getting “bullied” by power (J Allen) rushers. We shall see in TC how he is doing.
by Buffalo for Eternity on Jan 3, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
I just dont buy the off-season injury point when I’m watching Eric Wood continue to flourish and dominate after coming off a far more grueling injury. Then again, I’ve never had either, so I really wouldn’t know. I just assume having your leg snapped in half and dominating sort of negates Bell’s injury excuse.
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Bones vs Ligaments. Two entirely different issues.
Where the bone break occurred, if repaired correctly, will be stronger when healed (as a rule).
Ligament surgery may have you with shorter ligaments, scar tissue or needing to retrain the joint in proper function.
Bones that are reset properly require almost no adjustments to their original function. Connective tissue surgeries (ligaments & tendons) generally result in longer rehab with some adjustments in functions. You may have read where players that had PCL/MCL type procedures end up with follow-up surgery to “clean out” the joint, that is to remove scar tissue or extraneous pieces. Frequently an after-effect (for years if not lifetime) of these connective tissue surgeries is occasional swelling. Swelling is rare in bone-break repairs.
My personal experiences are 1.) an impact-damaged meniscus (piece of cartilage in back of kneecap) from which I recovered relatively quickly (2.5 mos), 2.) cracked/broken nose (recovery 1 mo), and 3.) three-ligament ankle surgery. First 6 months using a “Baps Board” for stretching and balance, next 6 mos to get about 80% rotational ability, followed by retraining of the muscles for close to another year. To this day I can extend my right ankle past 180 degrees, but my repaired left stops at 165 degrees. Opposite direction similar results.
[BTW I’m not a pro-athlete but in shape, run 12-15 mi/week.] Also I am certified in emergency medical response. FWIW.
by Buffalo for Eternity on Jan 4, 2011 5:07 AM EST up reply actions
dont get upset about wasting 5th round picks, they are generally just filler and backups
BE VERY UPSET ABOUT WASTING FIRST, SECOND AND THIRD ROUNDER LIKE WE REGULRLY DO
I plan to do write ups on each line position. I’d say on individual players but does Cornell Green really merit a post? My intention is to have the season stats for each guy broken down by game…which are already available to you but you’d have to do a ton of digging.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
im very very excited for these posts
most notably, I’m curious to read about our center play under Geoff and under Eric in more detail.
And what, you don’t think you need an entire post to adequately address the intricacies of Cornell Green’s play here in Buffalo? hahaha
And I’m also very stoked your putting this together because digging on the internet has never been my forte but then again, I havent advanced beyond typing a name or question into google and hoping to works.
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Could you please....
just skip the revolving RT position??? :-)
Went to my first "BB" meeting today... When I stood, introduced myself, and admitted I was a Billsaholic, the other members threw beer cans at me!!
Too late
It’s already in the hopper and will be up approximately whenever Brian has the time to fix the chart I’m sure I mangled……and wants to put it up. Remember, we’ve got a loooooong offseason ahead of us so I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it hits the front page next week or even later.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
In fact I'm very grateful for these write-ups
Ron, just to be clear I really enjoy your write-ups and appreciate all the time you put into them. But as I’m sure you would agree, I think they need to be accurate since so many people are reading them, and I do think the figures on Bell look like an anomaly. In any event, what makes a blog like this so enjoyable is the chance to debate interesting issues and learn from each other, and by disagreeing with you I sure seem to be able to spark debate! I hope you agree that that’s a good thing.
Debate is a good thing. I will, by the way, attribute a sack to the QB if he hold the ball longer than 4+ seconds unless the OT has just been clearly beaten. I don’t have an axe to grind against Bell and would be shocked if he’s not on the roster in 2011. Given Nix’s statements about getting ‘more weapons’ and the general view that there are no elite OTs in this draft, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Bell starting. There will be more on him when I get to the LT post.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
ron the only ones that matter are the keepers
likely, Bell, Levitre, Wood, Hang and I am guessing Howard (i think he played injured for a while). Aren’t the rest waiver wire cuts?
Also.....
All in-play penalties are bad plays, so flags thrown due to holding are counted in the bad plays. I don’t count false starts as bad plays because there is no play on a false start. False starts can kill drives, and I take that into acocunt when determining who is responsible for a drive that ends short of the end zone.
I try to be as objective as I can when determining when a player has a good, decent, bad and/or killed play. Obviously, since I’m not really a robot a certain amount of subjectivity will always be present. I may believe that a linemen should have picked up a defender while someone else thinks that that defender wasn’t that lineman’s responsibility. On the whole, however, I think that most of us will see roughly the same thing over the long haul. For example, I’d get little argument that Wood is a good interior lineman, and even Bell’s defenders would stipulate that he’s not and upper echelon LT. We can certainly disagree over the ramifications and that’s what makes the blog so interesting.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
since I’m not really a robot
I am not yet convinced!
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
He's not a robot!!!
without emotion!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbkhla8Ivlk&feature=related
Went to my first "BB" meeting today... When I stood, introduced myself, and admitted I was a Billsaholic, the other members threw beer cans at me!!
hahahah wow
That was great
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Blast from the past
With the ? pick in the draft, the Bills reach for a player who is going to underperform or be a flat out BUST.
There are no political parties poz. I defend Bell after an uneventful game. But I’m not going to defend him for his bad games. The issue is, what is he? What can he be?
The issue is, what is he? What can he be?
For me grey, I’d prefer not to have to find out without a backup plan. What worries me is that we go into next season with Bell entrenched. All I ask is that some real competition be brought in at left tackle. And not some low end pick up or a Wang type draft pick but real, star potential competition. Whether it be a free agent or a high draft pick. Make Bell earn it and if he does it, great for him. I just shift uncomfortably in my seat thinking that we are going to roll into 2011 with Bell entrenched because as you said, its open ended what he can be. For me personally, I know what he is now, and that is a guy who seems outmatched opponents consistently. As a future LT? Maybe he can get better, maybe he can’t – as you said this is the issue. But for an undrafted guy (or was it 7th rounder?) to be getting outperformed after years of development I’d rather have serious competition to come in and take that job from him – make the man defend his starting spot.
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess I’m pretty pessimistic about a real upgrade being available. The draft doesn’t look like the spot and solid LTs just don’t see FA. Though I’m entirely onboard with the idea of creating competition. With the current tackle reserves a Bell injury would be disastrous.
Yeah, I agree with this. There’s going to be no ‘star potential’ tackle in FA, or at least one that’s coming to Buffalo. And it doesn’t look like there’s a top 10 OT in the draft.
So I think the best case scenario in acquiring the best possible OT is the 2nd round pick. I guess a 3rd rounder is a possibility (like Jonas Jennings was) but that depends on your definition of a star potential player.
I’d be happy with ‘pretty solid, and no huge mistakes’ from the tackles. A star is a bonus, but really good teams can get away with not having star tackles.
really good teams can get away with not having star tackles.
Agreed. Problem is, I think we’re far from a really good team. Having Ryan Fitzpatrick in this OT situation is the best thing that could have happened to us, because throwing a rook behind them would be asking a lot.
Pistol, do you think there are any Roger Saffold type 2nd rounders in the draft this year?
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
As you may remember, I was the person on this blog who, more than anyone, was calling for the Bills to draft Saffold. I did that precisely on the thought that he and Bell would compete with each other to see who ended up at LT. So I’m all in favor of your suggestion that the Bills get another strong possibility at LT and let them duke it out. But so far I don’t see any serious LT prospects in this year’s draft. They all belong at RT. I would like to see the Bills draft one of them to give us a solid RT, but if that happens Bell is going to retain his lock on LT.
I can remember well
Didn’t get a whole lot of love last year. After your comments and researching the best I could, I too felt that Saffold would be a great pickup with our second pick. Unfortunately, that never came to happen. Regarding Bell, I have given up. I read all the comments and posts. Competition would be great, even when Meredith was here it was someone for Bell to compete with. Bell will just have to lock it up himself. In some cases clout is too much to argue over. IMO LT is like 6th in area of need at this point, we are fortunate that Bell stayed healthy.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
I do think Bell is still developing and has his shaky moments, but my impression is the same as that of the Buff News — he had a pretty good year overall and is not an issue right now. We have a major problem at RT but not at LT. But watching Saffold play the other night I kept thinking what a great position we would be in having him and Bell as our two starting OT’s. Oh well, it was not to be.
ive often thought of that
With the current tackle reserves a Bell injury would be disastrous.
We had no contingency plan! Im not sure what would have happened. With Wang hurt for a while would we have seen Wrotto at LT and Levitre at RT? I mean, yikes!
Its just been so long since I’ve felt one of the most important positions on this team has been addressed. I mean, picture Bell as our swing tackle, what a great swing tackle! Maybe the best in the league! Now that is depth!
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
LeVetri would play LT
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
i would be stunned with competition
we need real competition at ILB, DE, RT, RG, TE and QB, seems like on a relative basis of need LT is fine, espicially coming of the injury
I know Ed Wang was hurt all year but he did make some appearance at guard when he was needed at our absolute thinnest and I’ve got to wonder why he was drafted if he couldn’t be counted on to even try and be better as a bookend at RT than the rotation we had going there.
I don’t understand why you’re so disappointed by the fact that a 5th round draft pick who everyone acknowledged was a project didn’t come in and immediately contribute.
I wish there was some obvious pun you could make about Andrew Luck.
by JPH on Jan 3, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
I tried to convey my disappointment not that a 5th roudner couldn’t contribute immediately but couldn’t be counted to be less of a disaster than everyone else at RT. So really, I wasn’t disappointed he couldn’t contribute, because none of our RTs can be said to have contributed, but that he couldn’t be less awful than them. Does that make sense? On our team, he should have been able to get some reps at RT, ours was the worst RT situation in the league, hands down.
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions
I just dont think they ever had any intention of playing him this season
same as bell as a rookie. no matter what happened, there was no way he was seeing the field.
I wish there was some obvious pun you could make about Andrew Luck.
by JPH on Jan 3, 2011 3:57 PM EST up reply actions
But they played Cordaro Howard, and he was an undrafted rookie. Wang had been a long-term starter at OT at Virginia Tech. Why would they have held him out the whole year when they needed bodies to go in at RT so badly?
I recall reading reports about Wang at last year’s Senior Bowl that were highly negative. Someone — I don’t remember who but it was a noted draft expert — cmmented on how he was going to be a failure in the NFL. Apparently Buddy Nix wasn’t paying enough attention to Wang’s performance that week.
But they played Cordaro Howard, and he was an undrafted rookie. Wang had been a long-term starter at OT at Virginia Tech. Why would they have held him out the whole year when they needed bodies to go in at RT so badly?
Because Cordaro Howard was not a project, he was a stopgap. The reason they didn’t play him is the same reason you like to have a QB sit for a while before he plays, or any other position: sometimes throwing a guy to the wolves can lead to bad habits, etc.
I recall reading reports about Wang at last year’s Senior Bowl that were highly negative. Someone — I don’t remember who but it was a noted draft expert — cmmented on how he was going to be a failure in the NFL. Apparently Buddy Nix wasn’t paying enough attention to Wang’s performance that week.
He was supposed to take a consensus future star in the 5th round?
I wish there was some obvious pun you could make about Andrew Luck.
by JPH on Jan 3, 2011 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
No, I never said that. I said the reports indicated that Wang was terrible amd had little potential. That was the impression I got of him at the time, and if I picked up on all those red flags surely Buddy Nix could have. It looked to me like a waste of a fifth round pick (remember we got Brad Butler in the fifth round and he was impressive at RG). Perhaps Wang will look a lot better by training camp. If so, I’ll be happy to eat some crow. But right now it ain’t lookin’ good.
or, we could be reasonable
and acknowledge that late round picks aren’t, and shouldn’t be, expected to contribute immediately
I wish there was some obvious pun you could make about Andrew Luck.
by JPH on Jan 3, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
Really, really good post, poz. Great comments and observations.
I feel you do a great job of trying to be impartial while discussing your favorite team. Yes, you can be pretty optimistic about a team with a poor record, but you are not hesitant to dole out some criticism when and where you feel it necessary…case in point your feeling about D. Bell. I really enjoy reading your comments and value your opinion buddy!
"WHEN THE WAGON BLASTER TAKES OFF dont try to get in. THE SPACESES ARE LIMITED FOR WINNING ATTITUDE GODZILLA IS COMING GET READY" - abayarde
by StroudFanClub on Jan 3, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
hey thanks SFC, much appreciated!
I enjoy reading your comments as well my friend
The league should reward us with a compensatory 1st round pick for ending the Farve misery story. - wab2
by poz on Jan 3, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Ron these write up you do are brilliant..
…especially as they must take so much time to do. I am not exaggerating much when i say they are one of thing things i really look forward to reading each week, even when we have had our asses kicked!
There is one thing i would like to request if possible, have you ever done one of your write ups on a team that has a good o-line? I think it might be good to give us some bench marks so we can say a good LT should score 78% on pass plays or whatever. Then we can really see how good and bad our o-line are.
"Sharks are as tough as those football fans who take their shirts off during games in Chicago in January, only more intelligent." DAVE BARRY
"You are drunk, sir!" "And you are ugly, madame! But I will be sober in the morning!"
I looked at centers of teams Buffalo faced and graded them a couple of years ago when we were stuck with Duke Preston in the pivot. Most of them made Preston look bad. There is a chance that I’ll have the time to break down one of the playoff games. I think New Jersey vs Baltimore would be a good one—a good run team against a good defensive unit.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
that would be awesome, these right ups are spectacular
i wish they played the bills game in central PA, so i had some context to put to your stats, until the bills are good enough to be on tv again, i live on your report and gamecast
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