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3-4 v. 4-3 and our 2012 draft

Lately, a lot of Rumblers seem to be suggesting we transition back to the 4-3 next year. Their argument goes something like this; "George Edwards sucks, fire him, give Wannstedt the reigns and let him do what he does best--coach a penetrating 4-3-- this is better suited to the skills of K.Williams and Kelsay anyway." I was skeptical, figuring it would be a step backwards in terms of developing talent on the roster, but decided to see if there was any merit to the idea.

After a bit of messing around, I came up with two 53 man rosters, one for the 3-4, one for the 4-3. Both take into account everyone on our active roster, injured reserve and our practice squad, as well as leaving a handful of spots open for our incoming draft class:

Star-divide


Bills-3-4_medium


Bills-4-3_medium

-- Arranging the defensive line was relatively straight forward with the 40 front. It was easy to see who fit where. Organizing it the way I have pairs a veteran with a younger talent for developmental / rotational purposes. Each seems to fit their particular position while masking some of their defecits. It was also easy to see that Dwan Edwards wouldn’t be a good fit because he’s more a stay at home, run defender in a scheme that values a more athletic penetrator. All in all, it was a harmonious arrangement of deck chairs. Add a DE like Quentin Coples in round one, and a coach in Wannstedt who (theoretically) knows how to get these type of players to perform and I think we could enter next year with an elite starting defensive line with above average depth. I even like the idea of putting Barnett and B.Scott at OLB, and the depth / subpackage guys they would have underneath them.


--In contrast, it was a struggle to determine which 6 guys I would keep for the 30 front. Edwards, Williams and Dareus for sure (though Williams only fits because he’s elite talent, not because he’s actually a good fit at NT). After that, there’s a lot of question marks. Who is the rotational DT? Who plays OLB? Next year we would have many of the same questions, and little in the way of answers. Compounding the problem is the fact that there’s no elite 3-4 OLB in next year’s draft to shore up the 3-4 like Coples would help the 4-3 (Upshaw is not an elite 3-4 OLB, he’s marginally better than Kelsay, and would be a HUGE reach with the #9 pick). Add in the fact that Eddins can’t even get himself promoted off the practice squad, despite showing “promise” and we wind up no better off than we are now. Put Troup’s injury to the mix and things get even worse. There’s no guarantee he can play football next year, Lionel Dotson and Heard are both marginal talents, and Jarron Gilbert is more a penetrating DT than a “clog the middle” Nose Tackle, so who gets that position and plays? Or do we use another high round pick on a Nose tackle? All that and we haven’t gotten to the biggest question... who’s gonna coach these guys next year?


To be honest, the outcome surprised me. I like the 3-4 defense. I wanted to be supportive of the effort to build it. But.. there comes a point where the theory has to be put aside in favor of reality. and manipulating the deck chairs on this boat leads me to believe we’re in a much better spot playing a 4-3 from here on out.


Now, Nix said he needed 3 years to rebuild team, and if he’s building a 4-3 he’s Right on target! This years roster still has some fat on it (R.Corner for example), but after the 2012 draft, all that unwanted “fat” should be trimmed off. Nix needs to have a roster full of his guys, with good depth, we could have that with a 4-3, not so much with the 3-4. And we need to be competitive next year. Why? Because our patience is running thin, and when the 2013 NFL draft rolls around we can’t still be in re-build mode. Instead we need to be in maintaining and... UPGRADING the roster mode. It’s somewhere we haven’t been since 1996.


So, here's to hoping we roll out a 4-3 defense next year! And in that spirit, here’s my first attempt at a 4-3 mock draft. I think it fills in most of the red question marks, and makes us a very competitive team...


(9) 1- (DE) Quentin Coples 6-6 285 (UNC)

(41) 2- (QB) Ryan Tannehill 6-4 220 (Texas A&M)

(73) 3- (CB) Casey Hayward 5-11 190 (Vanderbilt)

(104) 4- (WR) Tommy Streeter 6-5 215 (U.Miami)

(123) 4- (OT) Ryan Miller 6-8 300 (Colorado)

(136) 5- (CB) DeQuan Menzie 6-0 200 (Alabama)

(168) 6- (DE) Matt Conrath 6-7 285 (Virginia)

(174) 6- (TE) Josh Chichester 6-7 245 (Louisville)

(200) 7- (SS) Winston Guy 6-1 220 (Kentucky)




Just another great fan opinion shared on the pages of BuffaloRumblings.com.

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oh, and....

there’s a lot of assumptions built into each mock roster. If you have any questions, I’ll check back in periodically to answer, and… feel free to use the 3-4 / 4-3 templates in your own mock drafts if you think it’s helpful!!

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 12:46 AM EST reply actions  

Great analysis, rec'd!

I had been thinking about doing an analysis of the idea of switching to 4-3, and you did a great job with this.
My only question is with your choice of LB’s for the 4-3. Bryan Scott seems like he’d be a bit undersized for the OLB position, even at the weak side spot. I seem to remember him playing OLB in our decimated defense of 2009 and he had trouble defending the run. He works at nickle OLB in our current setup, but if he were full-time I think we’d have trouble. Also, I think Nick Barnett might be a better fit for MLB than Kelvin Sheppard. Barnett has a lot of natural athleticism, and Sheppard isn’t as agile on the field.
No complaints with the mock draft though – if Coples shows he can be the pass rusher we need, and we could get a potential franchise QB in Tannehill, I would be ecstatic!

"Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin." - stetzwebs

by DanRoc on Dec 21, 2011 1:18 AM EST reply actions  

I have Brian Scott at OLB along with Danny Batten. I figured they would rotate depending on down and distance. On obvious running downs, Batten would come in, on Obvious passing downs, Scott would come in.
I agree 100% on Barnett’s athleticism, that’s why I have him at OLB. I think OLB requires a more fluid athlete so that they can cover the flat, defend against edge rushes and cover TE’s. I also figured Sheppard would come out in the nickle / dime defense (obvious pass downs).
Remember these are basic 3-4 / 4-3 packages, but any team is gonna play lots of subpackages depending on offensive alignment / down distance. Things are more fluid than they might seem in my diagrams

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Batten

is NOT a LB in a 4-3, neither is Moats.

by fanick82 on Dec 21, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

can you elaborate on why

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions  

because neither is close to the athlete in space that theyd need to be to play such a position. not even close

Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.

by boomsauce on Dec 21, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

If Batten and Moats can’t play in space then they definitely shouldn’t be a 3-4 OLB.

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 22, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

no i think boomsauce's point is valid

when you only have 3 LBs they have more spacial responsibility compared to 4 LBs.

You are now Watching The Throne.

by tomcs on Dec 22, 2011 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, esp why not Moats? IMO he had his best play last yr in our 4-3 Over/Under type looks

by dgrid on Dec 21, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

and B.Scott already plays OLB in certain situations

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

This

These guys are college DE, with average athletic ability. 4-3 lbs are faster, more agile and athletic.

by fanick82 on Dec 21, 2011 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Barnett / Sheppard / Scott play on passing downs. I’d say 2 of the three are excellent in space. Batten comes in for scott on obvious run downs, and… the rest are serviceable backups! Also, it’s not like we couldn’t get a good LB like Trevaithan (sp) in the 6th round.

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 22, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

skeptical about a complete switch...

Completely abandoning the 3-4 after this season would be premature, IMO… We drafted Troup and Carrington specifically for the 3-4 and both would be out of position in a 4-3 (more so Troup). You could argue that Troup hasn’t shown enough to warrant us not switching, but I still think he has potential.

But even if you prefer the 4-3 why abandon the 3-4 entirely? The personal we have no has the advantage of, when healthy, being versatile enough to show either look, and perhaps more importantly, disguise what we are trying to do.

Given a OLB to play opposite Kelsay that can actually generate a pass rush and a healthy Kyle Williams I actually think this could be a pretty dominant front 7… Either way you look at it- were one pass rusher away from having a good front 7 in my opinion. That could be a 4-3 end, or it could be a 3-4 olb. The latter affords us more versatility and keeps our other players in more ideal positions.

by astrazz2 on Dec 21, 2011 1:31 AM EST reply actions  

on a side note...

I havn’t been hearing a lot of good things about Coples after this season… The guys from MTD are going as far to say he shouldn’t even declare he had such a bad year. Seems like, at best, he would need a year or two to develop into an effective pass rusher

by astrazz2 on Dec 21, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Coples

Coples is a senior, he’s coming out regardless. And yes, in the beginning of the year the consensus was “He’s not playing up to the hype” but then people started saying… “he came on strong at the end of the year”. I think they’re mostly talking about sacks, BUT… stats aren’t always everything. If you watch some of his youtube film you’ll see that while he might not be making the tackles or getting sacks, he’s still an incredibly disruptive force. I think once or twice per film I would see him push the tackle back into the running back, slowing him down or blocking his escape around the end so that the LB’s can clean up. It’s one of those beautiful team based plays that he’ll never get credit for.
I guess it’s kinda like looking at Fitz’ 300+ passing yards and saying he played bad. Stats aren’t the whole story

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

the 4-3 should be our base, vanilla defense. I think it should be the one we prioritize and build our complex schemes / blitzes off of. But… I don’t think we need abandon the 3-4 entirely, by all means use it as a change of pace subpackage.
as far as Troup goes… I’m very skeptical that he will be able to play football next year. Lower back injuries are chronic and debilitating, much like an achilles! The difference being, Merriman has shown that he can be dominant, Troup has only shown that he is a serviceable work in progress.

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Im with on the switch 100 %

everyone who is concerned about us drafting Troup and Carrington and then switching to a 4-3 front is not seeing that they are just role players at their best and should in no way be dictating the scheme … Kyle Williams and Dareus are the cornerstones of this defense and both need to be able to play side by side in a penetrating front for maximum effect … Coaches need to put the best player son the team in a position to the most good and stubbornly sticking with a 3-4 front while the defense sucks and your best players are better suited for a 4-3 scheme in my opinion

"The only yardstick for success our society has is being a champion. No one remembers anything else." John Madden

by BRIANMULHALL on Dec 22, 2011 8:59 AM EST up reply actions  

its not stubborn. its patient and logical.

they run a hybrid scheme anyway so I dont get why everyone has to discuss this.

You are now Watching The Throne.

by tomcs on Dec 22, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

This was awesome

the only thing i would add is its hard to do a mock without also adding in your free agency moves too cause you cant get every need in the draft and I also think that is a bad strategy as well from a front office standpoint,to me the draft is about upgrading the roster plain and simple you don’t fill needs you just grow the talent on the team, if that means making a strength stronger then so be it

"The only yardstick for success our society has is being a champion. No one remembers anything else." John Madden

by BRIANMULHALL on Dec 21, 2011 8:09 AM EST reply actions  

I understand where you’re coming from, but… google the list of upcoming free agents and look who’s there. Bell is considered the top LT. S.Johnson is 8th or something in terms of WR. Why not just lock them up (they already know the system) and call that our Free agency period? Personally, I would rather draft a young guy with potential (see Rogers) than overpay for an aging Asomugha (sp?).

That and Streeter is 6-5, and runs a 4.38!! He would make the perfect complement to S.Johnson (deep threat) and Fitz would be able to hit him because of his size!!

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

REC because of this:

Fitz would be able to hit him because of his size!!

"Hardwork beats talent when talent fails to work hard" -Norm Nixon
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." -Confucius

by ChewyFL on Dec 21, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

excellent!

Nice work and thanks for taking the time for a truly educational piece.

"Hallelujah, Noel, be it heaven or hell, the Christmas we get, we deserve"- Greg Lake

by fansince60 on Dec 21, 2011 9:14 AM EST reply actions  

great job!

altho, not sure Tannehill will be there in the 2nd rnd

by dgrid on Dec 21, 2011 11:39 AM EST reply actions  

If that were the case I would take either S.Gilmore or C.Minnefield with the rd2 pick and then take Nick Foles in rd3

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

You're right...let's scrap our 5 year plan in our 3rd year

This team is running a 3-4…time for us fans to just accept it.

Oh and our 4-3 defense with Perry as our DC got blasted by the run too…so maybe it’s just talent and not so much scheme…

How about we keep the scheme, add some talent to our defense and see where that gets us? My guess is that is what Nix and Chan are planning on doing…

by BuffaloFanFromCT on Dec 21, 2011 3:29 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

never woulda guessed....

so, who’s gonna play Jack OLB for us next year? Sam OLB? who’s gonna coach the 3-4? And what’s your plan at DT if Troup can’t play?

I’m all for adding talent, but WHERE are you gonna get the specific talent we need from? There’s no first round, top ten 3-4 OLB talent in this draft, and theres no guarantee any of the later pics can do everything we need an OLB to do.

Also… we complain that Gailey’s too stubborn to change his gameplan and run more, why aren’t we bitching about NIX’s stubborn refusal to scout and draft for anything other than a 4-3?

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 21, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

There’s no first round, top ten 3-4 OLB talent in this draft

thats not set in stone. boards will change alot from now till april. nick perry declared, and hes a guy that could end up rising. if sam montgomery comes out, he almost certainly be a top 15 pick.
plus, cant rule out guys like mercilus or irvin or curry going nuts in the predraft stuff and forcing their way up draft boards.

Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.

by boomsauce on Dec 21, 2011 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

well, I wrote the Montgomery piece, and the consensus was: “you can’t touch the guy cause he’s a redshirt sophomore, and too much of a risk”

Also… I’m high on Perry, but he’s NOT a top 10 pick. He’s a late first, early second type guy. Mercilus is the type of guy that will fall if anything (I don’t think he’s as good as Perry). Irvin seems intriguing to me, but - like perry- is a late first, to mid 2nd round pick.

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 22, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Ding ding!

Defense is mostly players. It doesn’t matter what you run if you have good players in the right spots. Every now and then, someone like Wade Phillips comes in and turns a defense around, but he already had a boatload of talent in Houston. Belichick has average talent, and can’t scheme a good defense.

Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.

by Der Jaeger on Dec 21, 2011 8:55 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

i totally disagree with the fits here

i think literally every linebacker in that 4-3 picture is hilariously out of position. the only guys in the front 7 there who really fit in my mind are williams and kelsay, and i could care less about williams, hell dominate regardless. the bills should not overhaul there scheme again to take kelsay from below average linebacker to average defensive end.

and i hate coples as the bills pick. talk that he doesnt have passion, or is playing to not get injured, or that he doesnt have the work ethic. whatever the reason is, a guy who so thoroughly under-performs in college despite that kind of physical ability is an enormous red flag to me. i just dont think the guys a very good football player.

Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.

by boomsauce on Dec 21, 2011 3:36 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

I'm not sure that this matters, though it's a good fanpost

Buffalo is running a 3-4 in name only. They’ve been running so many variations of base defenses, that saying “Buffalo runs a X defense” is nearly impossible. From the best I can gather, Buffalo is running mostly 46 concepts, from Edwards’ days working with Marvin Lewis in Washington.

3-4 players can fit into a 4-3, but it’s doesn’t work quite so well the other way around. Me, I’d keep drafting 3-4 types, and keep running a hybrid defense.

Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.

by Der Jaeger on Dec 21, 2011 8:58 PM EST reply actions  

"They’ve been running so many variations of base defenses, that saying "Buffalo runs a X defense" is nearly impossible."

isn’t that part of the problem? This team needs an identity defensively. A major part of a teams defensive identity is… what base defense they run. And if the base defense is MOSTLY 4-3, that should take some of the mental strain away from players. Instead of having to understand the fundamentals of two schemes (plus blitzes and packages), Players would only have to know the fundamentals of one scheme+. Communication should improve as a result, Meaning less blown assignments, etc.

Regardless, I do agree that ELITE players are going to make a bigger difference than anything else. My point (maybe it got buried a little) is this:
—In terms of the personnel we have today, we are Neither better suited to be either a 4-3 or 3-4 defense. But.. taking into account this years draft position, the talent available in said draft, and coaches on hand, we have a better chance at drafting elite 4-3 players than elite 3-4 players, especially when put in context of all our other team needs. And that’s what makes me believe we should make the transition.

by Nepenthe88 on Dec 22, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

This team needs an identity defensively

What’s wrong with an identity like any of the other good hybrid defenses out there? That is, a tough, physical defense. Why must there be an identity that other teams can exploit?

"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.

by stetzwebs on Dec 22, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree with stetzwebs. I’d much rather have a defensive identity tied to toughness and physicality, or even speed, than a formation. This is actually how Baltimore does business.

Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.

by Der Jaeger on Dec 22, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

How did you upload the pictures? I’ve tried to do that with a few posts in the past and can never seem to get it to work? Love the scenarios of showing what the 4-3 defense would look like.

by DynamicHero22 on Dec 23, 2011 3:34 PM EST reply actions  

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