The case for the 4-3

by P_Deuce on Dec 9, 2011 4:32 AM EST

There has been a lot of discussion about whether the Bills should be a 4-3 or a 3-4. Initially, I was in favor of them becoming a 3-4, but now I favor a return to the 4-3. Here's why....

Probably their two best defensive lineman (Kyle Williams and Marcel Dareus) are best suited to play the 4-3 as three technique defensive tackles. In a 3-4 - both of these players effectiveness is somewhat limited.
Another player they are tied to (Chris Kelsay) is better as a 4-3 end than as a 3-4 outside linebacker. They aren't tied to him as much as the previous two guys, but they have made somewhat of a commitment.
In terms of personnel they need, I don't think there is much difference. They need a couple of pass rushers either way. They either need a couple of OLB's or a couple of 4-3 DE's. In a 4-3, they might need an outside linebacker, but I think that could wait. If they can get a pass rush, that will cure a multitude of ills.
Advantages of the 4-3... The 4-3 has some advantages and some disadvantages - but one of the advantages is in terms of the kind of personnel you can put on the field. The ideal 4-3 end is in my mind the best pure pass rusher and is about six five and two hundred and seventy five pounds. Often this player is a little too tall to play outside linebacker, and is a fish out of water in a 3-4. Similarly, playing a 4-3 allows you to have some lighter "run and chase" linebackers whose coverage skills are a little better, and allows you to keep one or two lighter defensive tackles on the roster, who allow some more quickness.

There is my case for the 4-3...what do you think?

Just another great fan opinion shared on the pages of BuffaloRumblings.com.

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I think this is a moot point because the Bills do play the 4-3 a lot. They also play the 3-4 and are gearing up the staff for a 3-4.

Let’s not abandon the 3-4 just yet. The defense is making plays but just not getting QB pressure. Maybe Merriman will be healthy next year, maybe FA will help, maybe a draft pick or two. This defense is getting more physical, let’s not give up just yet.

by BuffaloFanFromCT on Dec 9, 2011 9:14 AM EST via mobile reply actions

Staff?

Who, Edwards? That’s it tho, Wanny is a 4-3 guy.
If they stick w the 3-4, they better get some OLB’s

by dgrid on Dec 9, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions

he means personelle. We have one 4-3 de. We also have a group of linebackers better suited for a 3-4. If we switch now it will take an additional 2 years to field the defense.

"This is a chance to shine some light on the city, They say it’s too cold. I’m going to bring some warmth to it." Marcell Dareus

by matthew62 on Dec 9, 2011 10:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions

pretty much agree on this.
Altho, if the stick w/ 3-4, they sure better get some 3-4 coordinators!!

by dgrid on Dec 9, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions

Agreed

by khameleon59 on Dec 10, 2011 2:58 AM EST up reply actions

Agreed @ Buffalo fan

by khameleon59 on Dec 10, 2011 2:58 AM EST up reply actions

If our LBs work out with who we have, we could run a very good 4-3 with one move.

Offer a 1st (depending on where we pick) and maybe another pick to the Vikings for Jared Allen.

Allen – Dareus – Williams – Kelsay

Da'Jon McKnight - WR (Minnesota) - 6'3'' 211Lbs. (4th Round)

Buffalo's best chance to win next year could conceivable come from two 2012 OLB Prospects: One many named Courtney (Upshaw), and one man named Whitney (Mercilus). Have them rush behind the Behemoth named Leslie and we'll be set.

by NordicBillsfan on Dec 9, 2011 11:57 AM EST reply actions

lol

come on….

by BringBackGibran on Dec 10, 2011 1:41 AM EST up reply actions

I never wanted to leave the 4-3

I am all for the switch, and people who say we run 4-3 are wrong, they are called nickle and dime packages with 5 or 6 in the secondary. We are using 4 lineman, not 3 LBs too.

The problem with the 3-4 is there are too many teams using it. When we had a great 3-4 under Wade Phillips, we were only one of 5 teams using the 3-4. Because less teams were using it, it was much easier to get OLBs and NTs. Now almost half the league uses the 3-4, making it much harder to get NTs and OLBs, because there is so many more teams competing for them in the draft and via FA.

We still don’t have a true 3-4 2 gap NT. You could argue Dareus is, but he is better suited as a 2 gap DE. Ted Washington was a monster for us at NT back when we had a top 3 3-4 D. You need a guy like him to anchor the line. He was a solid 2 gap prototype NT, who just ate up blockers and swatted down passes with his long arms, he really made our 3-4 work back then and guys like him are very hard to find nowadays with so many teams running a 3-4.

If we returned to a 4-3, the main thing we would need is a pass rushing RDE to replace what Schobel used to do. They are easier to find now with so many teams running the 3-4, you can try to convert those 4-3 RDE pass rushers into a OLB in a 3-4, but it is almost always a crap shoot if they haven’t done it before. Gotta stay ahead of the curve which is what we were back when Wade was HC in terms of defensive philosophy. Now we are behind the curve. I am all for going to a 4-3 base with the Mustache being DC.

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by The Buffalo Kid on Dec 9, 2011 12:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

Ya. Too many people are caught up on the notion that running a 4-3 means you’re running a Tampa-2 or that you can’t still be big and physical.

Da'Jon McKnight - WR (Minnesota) - 6'3'' 211Lbs. (4th Round)

by NordicBillsfan on Dec 9, 2011 1:23 PM EST up reply actions

Yep

Look at the Vikings, they were running a big 4-3, not a Tampa 2. The Williams wall was the centerpiece of the D. It was effective for many years. That’s the kind of 4-3 I would want. Dareus and Kyle, are the centerpieces to run a similar D. Get 1 solid RDE like Jared Allen and we have all the personnel we need to run a solid big 4-3.

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DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

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by The Buffalo Kid on Dec 10, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions

I totally agree with this

This would also make drafting Quinton Coples a great idea. Then you have Coples-Williams-Dareus-Kelsay…now thats a front 4. The linebackers could adapt, Barnett is fleet of foot enough to handle it, and Shep would be OK I think. Maybe draft a LB or two, and boom there’s your defense.

by BMWdrummerman777 on Dec 9, 2011 3:45 PM EST reply actions

And Barnett has played in the 4-3 before.

Da'Jon McKnight - WR (Minnesota) - 6'3'' 211Lbs. (4th Round)

by NordicBillsfan on Dec 9, 2011 6:23 PM EST up reply actions

Barnett

He is a prototype Wil LB in a 4-3, he would fit right in, plug and play.

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by The Buffalo Kid on Dec 10, 2011 5:59 AM EST up reply actions

No

A major reason i say this is look at the Houston Texans, the #1 defense in the NFL who ran a 4-3 last year and now switched to 3-4. Look at the Steelers, Ravens top defenses in the nfl and the majority of them are 3-4. Carrington Williams Dareus is a good if not great 3-4 D line. Shepp and Barnett are good inside. Kelsay is okay but we need 2 OLBs. If we run a 4-3 we need 2 DEs. But I dont think Dareus is a 4-3 guy, he is more of a space eater (double teams) than a gap shooter to me. and williams is a pro bowl NT. The switch is not going to happen. I hope we can get a guy like Romeo Crennel to run our 3-4, not Wannastedt a 4-3 guy.

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by tomcs on Dec 9, 2011 4:30 PM EST reply actions

But I dont think Dareus is a 4-3 guy, he is more of a space eater (double teams) than a gap shooter to me. and williams is a pro bowl NT.

Dareus could play the role that Pat Williams did in the Vikings 4-3, with Kyle Williams being the gap shooter. IIRC in 2010 we were playing more than 50% out of a 4-3 package so it’s not as if it would limit Williams.

Da'Jon McKnight - WR (Minnesota) - 6'3'' 211Lbs. (4th Round)

by NordicBillsfan on Dec 9, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions

yea either way Dareus and Williams will be great

I think the 3-4 is a better defensive scheme for how football is played now anyway though.

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by tomcs on Dec 9, 2011 9:19 PM EST up reply actions

Definitely

4-3 or 3-4, with those two healthy our D-line will be a force.

Da'Jon McKnight - WR (Minnesota) - 6'3'' 211Lbs. (4th Round)

by NordicBillsfan on Dec 9, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions

A major reason i say this is look at the Houston Texans, the #1 defense in the NFL who ran a 4-3 last year and now switched to 3-4

You are forgetting or not mentioning that first they have Wade running their D, who is perhaps is one of the greatest 3-4 gurus in the league, we were a top 5 defense when we had Wade Phillips running it until Wilson screwed that up. Second, the Texans had Mario Williams playing OLB which was a surprising success until he got injured, and they also drafted JJ Watt to play DE who is someone I really wanted to see the Bills get when he was being projected as an early second round pick who ended up going top 15.

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DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

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by The Buffalo Kid on Dec 10, 2011 4:07 AM EST up reply actions

A major reason i say this is look at the Houston Texans, the #1 defense in the NFL who ran a 4-3 last year and now switched to 3-4.

The Texans and the other teams in the NFL are an interesting point. Currently, the top 5 scoring defenses in the NFL all run a 3-4 and the bottom 5 all run a 4-3. That’s a pretty big statistical coincidence.

The other thing to consider when talking about the Texans is that their 3-4 is like the anti-Bills D. Their average starting defensive lineman weighs 290. They’ve got 13 sacks in 12 games just from the DL. JJ Watt (at least IMO), has been a more impactful player than Dareus this year based solely on him being better against the pass. The Bills smallest players on the DL rotation are bigger than every DL on the Texans roster. The only player that even weighs 300 pounds on that Houston defense is their starting NT, a 6’4’’ 301 pound player.

The Texans D is actually worse at stopping the run than they were last year, giving up 4.2 ypc as opposed to 4.0 in 2010. But their commitment to pass defense has led to a drop in opposing QB rating by 40 points. They hold opposing QBs to the lowest rating in the league this year after allowing the highest rating last season. That’s how much better that pass D is this year.

Brian Cushing would be the best pass rusher on the Bills roster and he plays inside for Houston and has the 6th most sacks on the D. Last year they struggled to get after the QB, with Mario Williams as the only effective pass rusher on the roster. Connor Barwin (who was always a better 3-4 fit) has broken out in his 3rd NFL season and their pair of pass rushers they took in the first couple rounds this year (Watt and Brooks Reed) have been effective.

In other words, I don’t care what defensive formations they use, just find and put some pass rushers on the field instead of making each offseason about getting bigger and better against the run.

"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington

by kaisertown on Dec 10, 2011 5:53 AM EST up reply actions

yea

I think this is the off season they get pass rushers. they are building from the inside out and as you said have gotten bigger and better against the run and now hopefully they will draft and pick up a few OLBs. But i think our D can be better than the Texans because i think we have a better DL. If we can just get some talented LBs this D can be very good.

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by tomcs on Dec 10, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions

Thank you kaiser

In other words, I don’t care what defensive formations they use, just find and put some pass rushers on the field instead of making each offseason about getting bigger and better against the run.

Agreed.

It’s all about passing and stopping the pass in the NFL right now. Sure, there are a few outliers, but for the most part, that’s how you win in the current game. Until this franchise actually commits to getting so much better and more effective at rushing the passer, the defense is going to stink overall. They can draft 3-4 DE’s all they want, but until they find edge rushers, it’s not going to make a huge difference.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on Dec 10, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions

Case against the 4-3

Buddy nix spent his first two drafts going after strictly 3-4 personnel.
Also, the claim that dareus is a better 4-3 player is highly debatable. I’ve always seen dareus as more a gap-control, stack and shed kind of player, rather than a guy whose a gap shooter.
Also, the bills have played an incredibly low amount of 3-4 anyway. they spend a majority of their defensive snaps either in nickle or shaded one direction or the other in their hybrid scheme.

Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.

by boomsauce on Dec 9, 2011 4:45 PM EST reply actions

Buddy nix spent his first two drafts going after strictly 3-4 personnel.

And the defense still stinks

I’ve always seen dareus as more a gap-control, stack and shed kind of player, rather than a guy whose a gap shooter.

That’s what makes Kyle and him such a great middle in a 4-3, Dareus as a 2 gap fill guy and Kyle as a penetrator, think the Williams wall with Pat and Kevin.

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DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!

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by The Buffalo Kid on Dec 10, 2011 2:41 PM EST up reply actions

Buddy Nix has not addressed OLB yet.

You cant build a good defense in 2 years, with good depth. We had a good defense then Merriman and Williams got hurt. We are playing a bunch of rookies who are playing well but are still young. This is the year we address OLB, and next year we will have a good defense.

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by tomcs on Dec 10, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions

wasn’t Dwan Edwards brought in because he was an experienced and capable 3-4 DE? He stinks! Chris Kelsay will be 33 and he’s lost any quickness that made him a favorite of Bills management. Regardless of playing from a down or up position he can’t shed blocks. Troup is either hurt or ineffictive.

Andra Davis & Kirk Moorrison shouldn’t be on an NFL roster anymore. Danny Batten doesn’t have the skill sets.

SO – -it’s a perfect time to start over with whatever front you want.

by BestBluto on Dec 10, 2011 1:01 AM EST reply actions

you make all these judgements but Kirk Morrison was a starter in the league for the past 8 years

Kirk Morrison was a starter in the league for the past 8 years. Kelsay has played very well this year. Dwan Edwards has played fine at 3-4 DE, i dont know what you expect out of him at a 3-4 end. He is just supposed to take up the gap.

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by tomcs on Dec 10, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions