Von Miller Tops Football Outsiders' SackSEER Projections
Let the Von Miller love-fest continue. His name has peppered the front page for weeks now, as he's seemingly jumped to the top of the Buffalo Bills' potential list of candidates for the No. 3 overall pick in the 2011 NFL Draft. Barring a surprise, Miller is likely to be the top pass rusher off the board, and potentially the first defensive player selected, thanks to top production and excellent pre-draft workouts. The team that selects Miller will be getting an elite pass rush prospect - one that Football Outsiders (FO) projects as one of the best to come out in years.
FO uses a metric called SackSEER, which they developed to project the sack totals of highly drafted 4-3 defensive ends and 3-4 outside linebackers in their first five years in the NFL. This regression model is comprised of four separate metrics they believe to be the most important factors that correlate to NFL sack success: the prospect's vertical leap, short shuttle time, per-game sack productivity in college (with some playing time adjustments), and games missed, including due to injury, suspension or leaving school early.
To develop the model, they analyzed all the edge rushers selected in the first two rounds of the NFL Draft from 1999-2008. SackSEER projects the sack totals for prospects for their first five years in the NFL, as that's roughly the average rookie contract for those drafted in the first two rounds. It should be noted that the model does a better job predicting potential busts than it does projecting potential stars, although they have a pretty high success rate with both. Von Miller tops their projection for the 2011 draftees, and it's really not close.
After applying the four metrics, the SackSEER model projects Miller to accumulate 36.4 sacks over the first five NFL seasons. His blend of speed, explosiveness, experience and production produced the metric's seventh-best projection over the past 12 years.
For the most part, the SackSEER projection puts Miller is very good company, as the model has correctly predicted the success of Aaron Schobel (holder of the highest SackSEER grade ever), Mario Williams, Shawne Merriman, DeMarcus Ware and Terrell Suggs. Some of the best pass rushers of the past decade had a similar projection, showing the potential this model has in its predictive qualities. His fellow draft prospects didn't fare as well in the projection, including a handful linked to the Bills: Robert Quinn, Brooks Reed and Jabaal Sheard.
| SackSEER Projections, 2011 | ||
| Name | College | SackSEER |
| Von Miller | Texas A&M | 36.4 |
| Justin Houston | Georgia | 26.0 |
| Da'Quan Bowers | Clemson | 22.0 |
| Robert Quinn | UNC | 15.5 |
| Brooks Reed | Arizona | 15.1 |
| Jabaal Sheard | Pittsburgh | 10.6 |
Obviously, any of these players could turn into great NFL players, and any of them could be out of the league in three years. However, before any of you Quinn, Reed or Sheard fans blow off this model as useless, consider the players who have produced the lowest SackSEER projections of the past 12 years.
| Lowest SackSEER Projections, 1999-2009 | ||||||
| Name | College | Year | Team | Pick | SackSEER | Sacks 1-5 |
| Paul Toviessi | Marshall | 2001 | DEN | 51 | 12.5 | 0.0 |
| Erik Flowers | Arizona State | 2000 | BUF | 26 | 10.9 | 5.0 |
| David Veikune | Hawaii | 2009 | CLE | 52 | 10.9 | 0.0* |
| Ikaika Alama-Francis | Hawaii | 2007 | DET | 58 | 10.9 | 1.0* |
| Erasmus James | Wisconsin | 2005 | MIN | 18 | 10.7 | 5.0 |
| Anton Palepoi | Nevada | 2002 | SEA | 60 | 10.5 | 4.0 |
| Robert Ayers | Tennessee | 2009 | DEN | 18 | 9.4 | 1.5* |
| Tony Bryant | Florida State | 1999 | OAK | 40 | 8.2 | 17.5 |
| Dan Cody | Oklahoma | 2005 | BAL | 53 | 7.9 | 0.0 |
| Jarvis Moss | Florida | 2007 | DEN | 17 | 7.6 | 4.5* |
| Jerome McDougle | Miami | 2003 | PHI | 15 | 6.8 | 3.0 |
| Jason Pierre-Paul | South Florida | 2010 | NYG | 15 | 3.8 | 5.0* |
| Michael Boireau | Miami | 2000 | MIN | 56 | 2.3 | 0.0 |
Those aren't the names you want your early-round pass rush draft pick to be associated with. Any team looking to draft one of the players with the low SackSEER numbers must really consider the four metrics FO uses. It's not the be-all, end-all way to predict potential pass rushing busts, but it's certainly a tool to make many observers take a different approach to their predictions.
If the Bills believe Miller is the next great pass rushing outside linebacker in the NFL, they certainly have history on their side according to the fine folks at FO. Miller possesses a rare blend of speed and athleticism, which suggest he should be an effective pass rusher in the NFL. The question marks will remain regarding his ability to help against the run and whether he can perform at a high level under 250 lbs., but there should be no doubt that he is an elite pass rushing prospect. Time will tell whether or not the SackSEER model lives up to its past success in projecting Miller's, and his fellow draftees', statistical output.
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Maybin
What was Maybin’s SackSEER number? Just curious.
I looked at their website for this and I didn’t have any luck. I did find where they said he had a good rating, but didn’t perform to that level. They just didn’t say what the number was.
by Slick Shifty on Apr 19, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Found it...
“Projection: 45.85 Sacks by Year 7”
http://thegoodbyeladiesdraftreport.blogspot.com/2009/04/2009-nfl-draft-defensive-end3-4-rush_19.html
by Slick Shifty on Apr 19, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
That was before they made adjustments to the model
I’m pretty sure his projection went way down after they started accounting more for games missed due to leaving early and to account for one big season. Him and Paul Kruger both originally had high projections, but they adjusted the model to better account for regression to the mean after breakout sophomore seasons. That’s also why Jason Pierre-Paul’s score was so low, since he had one season at USF and put up 6 sacks, despite his phenomenal athletic numbers.
He wasn’t listed in the table for top projections on FO, while another player (Connor Barwin) from the 2009 draft class was still included. Of course, Barwin only had one big season too, but his projection was inflated, IMO, because the model didn’t account for him only playing DE for one year. He had 4 years of college experience, not just 1 that should have been used for the model. That leads me to believe Maybin’s adjusted projection was much, much lower. I wish they had those adjusted SackSEER scores for all prospects that they analyzed, but I can’t find them.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
I looked it up
Maybin’s SackSEER number was 45.85 sacks by year 7.
The projection apparently also took into account the bust factor, or the “Vernon Gholston” factor as the author called it. It lauded Maybin’s vertical leaps and “elite” first step, dismissed any Penn State “curse” factors and his lack of ideal size and highlighted his short college career as a legitimate concern.
This is not to dismiss SackSEER by any means, but just goes to show that drafting truly is an imperfect science and so much of a prospect’s success is tied to the coaching staff and the system they end up in. I’m surprised that SackSEER doesn’t take into account the variety of pass-rush moves the player has and the success rate of each of those moves. I think players like Maybin fall into that small category of players who may blow SackSEER out of the water but also rely on only one or two moves – something that won’t translate well to the NFL.
that's off by 2
(decimal points. Should be .4585)
"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends. We're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside" - ELP
by fansince60 on Apr 19, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He adjusted the model, though
Because of guys like Maybin. Maybin isn’t included in the top projection list in the link I included. Here it is again. It’s still not perfect, nor could it ever be, but I think the model does a good job of ballpark projecting the odds that a player may or may not work out.
How would it account for pass rush moves, though? It’s based on statistics and athletic numbers, so it really couldn’t involve something that can’t be quantified.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
It’s still not perfect, nor could it ever be, but I think the model does a good job of ballpark projecting the odds that a player may or may not work out.
I didn’t say it had to be perfect. Sorry if I came across that way. I agree, it does provide a decent ballpark but I think its too inconsistent to be seriously used by NFL front offices.
How would it account for pass rush moves, though? It’s based on statistics and athletic numbers, so it really couldn’t involve something that can’t be quantified.
Maybe they could document how many times the player used a particular pass rush and then look at the success rate in that pass rush. They could come up with some parameters to define “success” or “failure”. Maybe a sack, QB hurry, or tackle for a loss (for RBs) could be deemed as a “success”, whereas anything else would be not a success. I don’t want to call it a “failure” but I think you get the point. Its not the most accurate way to implement it, but if you applied it correctly I think it will take into account a very important factor in determining the SackSEER number – array of pass rush moves and how effective each one is.
i was
thinking that the whole time. hahahaha
Does not the dieing snake bite deapest?
by SOCALBILLSFAN99 on Apr 19, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Help me again get over this size thing with Von Miller.
We are picking at #3, We need to get it right!!! Also, Quinn didn’t play last season, that could of helped or hurt him. Another concern I came up with about Quinn. How much of his production is attributed to the other members of that same defense? The brain tumor and a defense that was supposed to be second to no-one are my only reservations.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
Slightly bigger than Matthews coming in.
Bigger than London Fletcher.
Some people are small and play big.
Some people are big and play small (James Hardy)
There are 10 other people on the defense to make up for one player being “small”
This is the best I could do.
Give this a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjdkc14-zwQ
by NordicBillsfan on Apr 19, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
that's cool it worked.
I guess, when I mention size I am reffering more to the opponents they are playing against than the actual individual themselves. In this case, TE’s, RT’s, RB’s, or all three. Was never a fan of James Hardy. He was big but like the fifth WR taken that year and we were hunting for the big target. Media hyped him real good.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
Media hyped him real good.
This is how I feel about Leonard Hankerson (WR – Florida?). Hands of stone yet everyone is talking about him being a 2nd round pick.
Give this a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjdkc14-zwQ
by NordicBillsfan on Apr 19, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
KURUPT WROTE A POST. I think that is awesome.
SackSEER was rough last year. Jerry Hughes had the top grade, yet didn’t do jack squat in Indy. JPP was a low scorer, yet had a rock solid rookie season. We’ll see how things go this year.
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
@BrianGalliford
by Brian Galliford on Apr 19, 2011 10:43 AM EDT reply actions
Haha
Yeah, it didn’t work out that well last year, but it’s been one year. Hughes needs playing time, though I’m not sure he’ll ever get it in Indy. Bill Polian regrets having him on the team, after all.
As for Pierre-Paul, it’s tough to figure him out, and that projection out. If you were to craft a perfect prospect athletically, it’d be JPP with his great blend of size and athleticism, but he was pretty raw heading into the draft last year and hadn’t done a ton in his one year at USF. The model tried to account for him playing at a JuCo, since there hadn’t been any successful pass rushers to go that route in over a decade. History isn’t/wasn’t on JPP’s side. I think the JUCO issue was overplayed in their projection, but it’s somewhat understandable, though the logic was a bit off. We also don’t know how much help JPP got because of having Tuck and Umenyiora taking pressure off him…
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Yeah I was just about to say
wasn’t jerry hughes ranekd #1 last year? I was buying into it last year because of all the talk how they projected Schobel to be good and he was, but Hughes really didn’t do much. He wasn’t bad, just wasn’t great, then again it is hard when guys like Robert Mathis and Dwight Freeney are ahead of you on the Depth Chart.
"I promise you, ... When I come back, I'm going to be like a mad dog in a meat house." -Takeo Spikes
by panekattack on Apr 19, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
What I think these FO models do best is point out the prospects that are overrated. Pierre-Paul looks to be the biggest exception. (I really like the RB model… very simple, makes sense, and picks out busts pretty well… watch out Ingram).
Quinn’s a tough fit for the model as he didn’t play this past year. I wonder what would happen if you doubled his sophomore season for his junior year. It probably puts him in the Justin Houston range.
This certainly doesn’t hurt my preference for selecting Miller, particularly when it’s that much of a difference.
Also, it was interesting to see Phillip Hunt in the discussion at the end. I remember him being profiled here prior to the draft a few years ago and then, I think, he went undrafted and then to the CFL. Now he’s potentially the next Cameron Wake.
Yeah, it hurt me to see Hunt on there
I thought he had a real chance coming out of Houston. I don’t know if he’ll be productive at the NFL level, but he has ability. He needs to overcome his size.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Maybin was give a 7 year projection of 46 sacks before he was drafted
under the previous version of sackseer, the author acknowledged that the fact that he had played so few games in college could squew his score.
"You are drunk, sir!" "And you are ugly, madame! But I will be sober in the morning!"
If Miller is the pick then hopefully we won’t be too disappointed when he doesn’t get a lot of sacks in his rookie year….and possibly not year 2. It’s a good bet that Miller spends 2011 learning the hard way that he’s not going to get by on athletic ability alone in the NFL. Not only will he have a harder time getting around offensive linemen he’s going to spend a lot more time getting leaned on by linemen on run plays. That sort of unwelcome workout does slow down a pass rusher over the course of a game and season.
He wouldn’t be my pick at 3 but I’ll certainly root for him if he is. At the very least he’d be a pick that addressed a real need.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
Of course the real question is
how does SackSEER project Maybin?
oops
sorry for some reason i saw 0 comments on the page before posting that, it’s already been discussed..
by beninbrooklyn on Apr 19, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
If you want to I think you can click ‘actions’ and delete your inital comment. I think the comments after that go away then.
It can always get worse. Let me tell you how.
by Ron From NM on Apr 19, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Why oh WHY!?!?
Why would the Bills draft a pass rusher who is only mediocre at stopping the run as a key to bring back this ailing team? We have the opportunity to get a Franchise level QB this year. Yeah a better defense will probably get us a win or two, then when Fitz craps out, then what? Use something like a 16th pick on a QB? Maybe? Or get a second round pick this year? Has anyone seen Joe B’s numbers on how unlikely getting a second round QB is? And it only goes down from there.
There are two very good QB’s available in Gabbert and Newton. If one isn’t available the other certainly will be. Using the 3rd pick on a stud pass rusher is just dumb. Doesn’t bring fans into the seats. Doesn’t get us in the playoffs, and certainly doesn’t get us into the Superbowl… EVER! And more importantly it will get us to be just good enough where we won’t get a top ten pick again in the near future…
I agree that franchise QB is by far the biggest need
I don’t understand how some could question that. The problem is whether the Bills see one in this draft. I would take Newton, but I don’t think he’ll get past Carolina. Gabbert seems at bit overrated at this point, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the Bills didn’t like him. If they don’t believe in either as a face of their franchise, they simply can’t take one. That’s why you have to look at the other prospects as just as likely to be the Bills’ pick.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Sorry, but I’ve gotta FJM this comment.
Why would the Bills draft a pass rusher who is only mediocre at stopping the run as a key to bring back this ailing team?
Because passing up a guy that actually makes big plays for a guy that’ll be brought in to occupy an offensive tackle on running plays makes so much more sense, obviously.
We have the opportunity to get a Franchise level QB this year.
Oh, I get it. Just because a QB prospect has a winning smile (face of the franchise!) and, as Rex Ryan might say, can throw a strawberry through a battleship, it automatically means that he’s going to be an excellent QB. Glad that’s cleared up.
Using the 3rd pick on a stud pass rusher is just dumb. Doesn’t bring fans into the seats.
Maybe not, but everyone’s sure as hell gonna line up at the doors in mid-December for a near-.500 football team to see its backup quarterback. I know I will.
Seriously, though, I get the sentiment, but the verve and the arguing points, I think, were off. I’d be more interested in hearing why you think either of those QBs will actually pan out… and in a FanPost, not on this thread.
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
@BrianGalliford
by Brian Galliford on Apr 19, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d disagree on the stud pass rusher.
Stud players are exciting to watch (In most positions, I doubt many get stoked watching Offensive Linemen). Bruce Smith, LT, Clay Mathews, etc… are all players I tune into games to watch. They’re game changers and make impacts all over the field and watching them take over a game is exciting (Mathews in the playoffs last season was rather fun to watch).
Elite talent sells tickets. Elite talent earns fans. If they don’t believe either QB is franchise material I want them to grab the top prospect remaining.
well put, but I thought we werent supposed to apoligize before tearing someone to shreds? Or is that just the commenters in regard to the posters?
"Jay Park is cool, he just says stupid things..."~All Jay Park's friends
by HurricaneJay on Apr 19, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, fair enough.
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
@BrianGalliford
by Brian Galliford on Apr 19, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, but in my mind a team ranked as low as the Bills at stopping the RUN, ought to focus on stopping the run.
A team that goes to the playoff year after year, takes risks to get there. Taking a guy who may or may not be a franchise QB, is a risk. But one that should be taken as it’s the only way to get this team back on top. I for one am SICK and tired of not getting to the playoffs… like that’s some holy grail. Most teams play to win the superbowl. Not go 8-8 and get into the playoffs because another team happened to lose more. We should be competing with New England. And currently we are so far behind their talent it’s laughable.
Get a guy you can BUILD a team around… Then address those weaknesses as they come. Build for the future, not just this December as you put it Brian.
Why is the run defense the only problem that people talk about fixing?
The Bills finished 27th in sacks and turnovers forced, which I consider to be bigger indicators of success. The top 8 teams in turnovers forced all won at least 10 games. Over the past 10-15 years, every SB winner outside of Indy finished in the top 5 or 10 (I forget which) in sacks.
There isn’t one specific area that the Bills really need to key on fixing. They need help everywhere.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Apr 19, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
^ this
Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.
Citi Field loves the mets so much it smothers them. -the caveman
a team ranked as low as the Bills at stopping the RUN, ought to focus on stopping the run.
Drafting for need over talent will keep this team stalling. How do we know that there is a DE worth taking at 3? We need to take the best player available. The Bills could use a RT or LT, but if the value isn’t there at 3 why take one? The same goes for DE, QB, LB, WR, DB. If the value isn’t there, you don’t reach for a player just because it’s at a position of need.
Sacrificing some value for a position of need is understandable, but we need to maintain a balance between the two.
Give this a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xjdkc14-zwQ
by NordicBillsfan on Apr 19, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
All this does....
is push JJ Watt up my draft board as he has outstanding times for a extremely big and strong player.
Watt is not rated by sackseer because they do not rate 3-4 ends and three ends are currently used more to tie up bodies and stop the run.
I don’t think this means JJ Watt won’t help the pass rush alot though. He can pass rush from end or tackle in our 4-3 looks and I really see him being a problem for tom baby as watt is smart and will reads plays (he is already good at this) and drop into passing lanes looking like a condor.
additionally, I hope our coaches are smart enough to use him in coverage in zone blitzes. (after we take him)
PodunkO - The great post ender!
Great Post K!
This will leave less “tears in my beer” if we pass on Peterson (assuming he is there).
"Jay Park is cool, he just says stupid things..."~All Jay Park's friends
take this guy
the QBs in this draft are not top 10 worthy

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