Bills Relying On Shawne Merriman, Development At OLB
by Brian Galliford on May 7, 2011 9:30 AM EDT
in Buffalo Bills News
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PrintLeading up to the 2011 NFL Draft, the name most frequently linked to the Buffalo Bills was that of Texas A&M outside linebacker Von Miller. By now, you're well aware that Miller was off the board before the Bills selected defensive end Marcell Dareus, and you're probably also aware that the Bills accepted the status quo at rush linebacker through draft weekend.
That means the Bills are going to be heavily reliant on Shawne Merriman next year. They'll also be counting on one (or more) of five young pass rushers to develop. The team is, without doubt, gambling at this position - and yes, we're working under the assumption that the team won't add a rusher once free agency begins.
Merriman has been in the organization for six months at this point, and obviously has yet to play a down after landing on IR to end his 2010 season. Still, the Bills saw fit to sign Merriman to a lucrative two-year contract extension. Merriman, who has played in 18 of a possible 48 games over the last three years, has recorded just four sacks in that time frame - as opposed to, by my count, five different injuries.
There's little question at this point that the Bills are counting on a healthy Merriman to be the crux of the team's pass rushing efforts. He's not the only player they're relying on to step up, however, as there's a group if five young pass rushers that will be asked to develop and contribute quickly, as well. (Because let's face it - for all of the good that Chris Kelsay offers, he's never been a dominant pass rusher, and is out of position standing up.)
That group includes the likes of Arthur Moats, Antonio Coleman, Danny Batten, Jammie Kirlew and, yes, even Aaron Maybin. Every one of those players - with the exception of Batten, who landed on IR, and Kirlew, who only spent part of his rookie season on Buffalo's practice squad - has a year of experience as an outside linebacker in the Bills' system. The only player that has flashed significantly is Moats, who recorded three sacks as a rookie and has developed something of a cult following within the fan base.
This isn't a terrible situation that the Bills find themselves in, by any means. A chance exists that Merriman finally stays healthy and is, at the very least, enough of a threat to make opponents focus on him. There is also a solid amount of natural ability in that group of developing players - enough, in fact, that it's not unreasonable to expect one or more of them to emerge as a viable option this season.
The only question, then, is how soon the team can expect productivity. Development takes time. It may also take time for Merriman to shake off, in essence, three years' worth of rust - again assuming he's healthy to begin with. Here's hoping it doesn't take too long.
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merriman
Any word on his rehab? Is he working out somewhere during the lockout?
CC Infantino
To me, this was the way to go this year. They had so many needs in the draft and they were able to address ones that largely were more pressing. They needed help in the secondary, they needed a defensive lineman.
They can still add a vet but it likely won’t make much of a difference if they do. If Merriman can stay healthy and at least one of a guy such as Moats or Batten can emerge, combined with much improved defensive front play, things should be decent.
You’ve got to believe that they’ll be looking hard at pass rushers in next year’s draft and if some of these young guys prove themselves in the mean time, this defense could be looking close to complete.
This isn’t a terrible situation that the Bills find themselves in, by any means.
What if Merriman doesn’t pan out? That leaves Moats and Kelsay as starters. Moats showed pash rush skill but was absolutely lost in run defense. Depth is unproven low draft choices and Maybin.
Yes, I would call the situation terrible. It’s going to be hard to stop the run, let alone compete for the playoffs, with this OLB crew.
i think the OLB situation here is far
from terrible. for the 2011 season its certainly relying a bit heavily on merriman, but weve got some very intriguing prospects (as this article points out…) at this position long term.
nix and gailey are likely hoping that one (or god willing, two) of the guys from that group turn into legit NFL starters at OLB. i think with moats, batten, and maybin theyre in a good situation to have one or two guys rise to the challenge
I look at it this way: it is not currently terrible. But it has the potential to reach terrible territory very quickly.
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
@BrianGalliford
by Brian Galliford on May 7, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Bad odds
That’s a great way to put it. It’s certainly possible that Merriman may recover his old form, but if you were laying odds on that you would have to say the probability is not high. Moats could become a solid NFL pass rusher, but most observers such as Mark Gaughn believe he has a fairly low ceiling. A miracle could happen with Maybin, but that’s the lowest probability of all. All of which suggests that the Bills’ pass rush in 2011 will likely rise or fall with Danny Batten. If he has the talent that the coaching staff believes he has, and if he can figure out how to use it in what will be in effect his rookie year, then we could be ok, but that’s asking a lot from him.
Put it all together and one sees that Nix is taking a big gamble with the pass rush. Yes, he invested heavily in the secondary during the draft, but that’s going about things backwards. If he had added a pick who could have made a difference in pressuring the QB it would have instantly made our DB’s job a lot easier. (It’s true Dareus will help, but not as much as a good OLB.) Give Brady (and other QB’s) enough time and they will pick apart the secondary regardless of who is back there.
Tim Graham is usually one of the best people at spotting the Bills’ main weaknesses and he is already starting to say that the lack of a pass rush could sink their fortunes this coming season. If he’s right we could be reaching terrible “very quickly.” The odds don’t look good.
i am not too fond of these so called experts
to be honest any of us can be as good as mark gaughn or tim graham in predicting the future of these players…. they have zilch idea how any players are going to turn out…. only one way to find out – time….
this same tim graham was saying in 2008 that bills are using a nobody next to stroud as a defensive tackle… that nobody is kyle williams today…
give moats time before you rule him out… he had 3 sacks as a rookie learning a new position… he is athletically good… he never had to defend against the run much at school since he was weakside DE… i would put more faith on moats than a guy who we havent seen at all, who was drafted in the same round as moats and who got injured the whole season without playing a snap… batten might be this injury prone player for ever… you never know
by statcruncher on May 7, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
and it is silly to expect anything from batten… how many 6th round pick do you expect to hit every year…. its lucky moats worked out… it would be a miracle batten will
by statcruncher on May 7, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If you go back to what the coaches were saying before Batten got injured, they were thinking they had found a real star in the sixth round. They were much higher on him than they ever were on Moats. That’s why I suspect that he could be the key to the pass rush next year. I’m relying on the reactions of the coaching staff, which do count for something.
I’m sorry, but over the years I have found that Mark Gaughn and Tim Graham are the two best writers I’m aware of on the Bills. They both live in Buffalo and are able to follow the team closely, and at the same time are as smart as any sports writers on the national scene. They are not infallible, and you are certainly correct that we should not regard what they say as gospel truth, but they are right so often that I would argue their opinions are worth taking into account.
coaches are always high on someone or the other
that does not translate linearly… if they were higher on batten than moats, does not mean batten is better than moats…
i have a hard time believing batten will be better than moats till i see it
by statcruncher on May 9, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
how many 6th round pick do you expect to hit every year
I have a better feeling that the Bills hit on a 6th rounder than a 1st before this year.
At least that has been the trend for awhile now.
Girls use hair spray, Men don't.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!
Don't be a Paully!
by The Buffalo Kid on May 7, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Water Cooler Reporting
this same tim graham was saying in 2008 that bills are using a nobody next to stroud as a defensive tackle… that nobody is kyle williams today…
Two years ago Kyle Williams was beginning to come into his own. Until then on the national scene he was a nobody. There is a lot of fan fare on this site regarding draft postion and deservedly so, but the fact is that many players need to grow into their positions before becoming that household name and there isn’t much more satisfying than a mid round pick being that person. Early round picks are automatically expected to perform, which isn’t always the case which we all have become accustomed too. I too value guaughn and graham’s opinion as well as Chris Brown’s. They tend to not sugar coat things and leak approved information they feel credible without embarrassing themselves at the same time. I like to referr to them as the water cooler reporters. I get more valuable information in the designated smoking areas then I do through e-mails and meetings than any place else. These guys carry legitimacy with their reporting more than opinion in most cases. Then again a lot of it comes down to interpretation.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
Maybin
I know there has been much discussion already regarding Maybin, but for what it’s worth, here are my two cents.
-He has obviously not lived up to his potential/draft position.
-He’s not one of CHIX’s guys.
-He seems to be a bit of a punk/not a hard worker.
-I think Gailey is being hard on him, feeding him humble pie, and ensuring that he becomes more of a well rounded player (he is a liability when he’s not rushing the passer) (and even when he is).
-He has talent to succeed, but we expect too much from him based on his draft position.
-He can have an impact, although not necessarily a first round impact.
-Gailey (the teacher) will get through to him, and he will see the field regularly.
-OR, we will use him as an example and cut him.
If he were taken in a later round, we wouldn’t discuss him so much, and our expectations would be tempered. Sometimes, I try to envision him as if he were taken in round 2 or 3, this way it takes the high expectations away, and he becomes more of a football player, and less of a controversial draftee.
We tempered our expectations with Whitner why not Maybin?
In Maybin’s defense, he was too small as a 4-3 DE from the start. And he certainly doesn’t look like the hardest worker on the field nor the smartest. But the kid changed systems last year and was put into the position most of us felt he was designed for Rush OLB. This kid seems to be like a peacock, he seems to love getting attention (good or bad). I think the way Chan is handling him is good because it must be hard on Maybin’s morale. I hope that he digs deep and finds a way to overcome this. He’s definitely got the athletic ability, all he needs is heart & dedication. If Merriman is reading this, I hope you come back to your top form – I was one of those that really wanted you in Buffalo because I think you still have a lot in the tank. But the other reason I wanted you in Buffalo is to mentor your young friend Maybin. Please help him become the OLB we all know he can become.
Rebuilding a team properly takes time and patience
Chris Kelsay. Loving husband, devoted father, dedicated cheerleading judge, extreme sackmaster
While I enjoy all content here at Buffalo Rumblings and use it as my primary Bills info source, I have to question one aspect of the story.
“Because let’s face it – for all of the good that Chris Kelsay offers, he’s never been a dominant pass rusher, and is out of position standing up”
What good does Kelsay offer? Besides knowing the defense and being a vet “leader”. So, obviously, he can’t rush the passer. I also feel he is a liability defending the run. Kelsay struggles setting the edge, and once engaged with a blocker, is easily skirted by running backs. This is especially a problem on outside runs/sweeps to his side of the field. I’m not trying to be a prick, just curious as to where Chris Kelsay’s strengths lie. It is the one move by Buddy Nix that I cannot wrap my head around.
Regarding Merriman and the young guys, I am cautiously optimistic. So much rides on Merriman staying healthy. My darkhorse for this season at OLB is Danny Batten. I remember Drayton Florence tweeting how Batten was the most impressive rookie during OTAs and the beginning of training camp.
by Saint Patrick on May 7, 2011 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Buddy said he wanted guys like Kelsay in the locker room
He must have great leadership skills and understanding of defensive schemes. I don’t know what he offers but he must be like a coach on the field…
by BuffaloFanFromCT on May 7, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Kelsey
I thought he was supposed to be pretty good against the run? (as good as any Bills defender was last year against the run that is)
Yep
And our run D stunk.
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
by buffalobacker on May 7, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Kelsay has a very high motor
Never been able to pressure the pocket consistently. IMO that is why Stroud is gone and Troup, Carrington and now Dareus were drafted. We need to get the Brady’s, Henne’s and Sanchez’s out of the pocket. Need to move the opponent’s QB around in the backfield. This will create doubt and hurried snaps by the defense. I understand all the criticism about Kelsay, ruling out last year his 1st at OLB, we really never had much push up the middle. At least on a consistent basis. Meatball was our only penetrator, Schoble offered pressure from the right side. Things are looking a lot more promising up front this year and going forward. I feel Kelsay will be a big contributor this season. We will still have that pass coverage issue to look at though.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
Merriman and Maybin on the edge...
You know what happens when it’s lights out? Mayhem…
I was like um
If Maybin can succeed under Merriman’s tutoring then we might have something recoverable with Maybin. Maybin is still incredibly young and has a lot to learn at the position. I’m sure his draft status when to his head but last year proved that the Bills are willing to move on. I’m very excited to see how Maybin pans out this year.
Our OLB position could generate some buzz. Dareus and Edwards can command two blockers and that leaves Kyle one-on-one with a center (he’ll win that 9x out of 10) and that’ll leave our OLB rush only being picked up by a RB. Merriman could have a huge comeback year if he can stay healthy.
by BuffaloFanFromCT on May 7, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
2 things
1) Brian, never poke a snake with a stick (I think you know how I feel on the Merriman situation). :)
2)
The only player that has flashed significantly is Moats, who recorded three sacks as a rookie and has developed something of a cult following within the fan base.
The last player that was talked about developing somewhat of a cult following within the fan base was Stevie Johnson. Let’s just hope that we fans are onto something and we get similar results.
The reasoning behind Stevie and Arthurs cult followings. Its actually simple. A lay person can spot a football player. It takes some time and experience to see whether or not a player has the required talent. But there are some guys who you can look at and just go, “football player.” Stevie and Moats obviously have some talent, but there was a reason they were drafted where they were. The majority of fans look at where a player was drafted and base their opinion on that. But looking objectively at a player play, you can tell who is a football player and who isn’t. Its easy to spot. Watching Aaron Maybin, he screams athletic but doesn’t strike “football player” in my mind. Perfect example is our very own Kyle Williams. He doesn’t look like much, wasn’t drafted high, wasn’t a superstar at LSU, but you watch him play and you can tell he has it.
I think that is what we see and saw in Moats and Stevie.
by BillsfanDan on May 7, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, if you really break it down to its simplest form. We all are pretty good at recognizing who has it and who doesn’t. Of course it is WAY easier to see it in a LB or WR or RB. And it gets most difficult when you’re talking QB, DB and OL.
Simple eyeball tests make it fun to watch young guys. And you could certainly see it in Stevie. Moats maybe to a lesser degree, especially if you leave out the Favre hit. And hopefully we see enough of guys like the Whites and Jasper so we can get pumped about their prospects.
You hit it right there brother, and Rec'd!
Concur.
I also think that Buddy knows things that we do not. A healthy, rested Merriman will be a nightmare for our opponents. The young’uns, Moats and Batten, provide us serious juice.
Sorry if I’ve been a homer the last week guys, but I’m drinking the cool-aid for now and can’t wait for the season!
“Yes Virginia, there is a Santa. And Maybin might show up this year and produce.”
One could only hope. Would that be perfect or what?
"There is not a loser in this room." Marv Levy.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on May 7, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
maybin
i want him suceed so much man, i think he still very young, just put the guy on the field.
by Fernando brazil on May 7, 2011 12:05 PM EDT reply actions
Funny
The little I saw Maybin on field was quite interesting. Seeing him fly around field because opposing players were flinging him all over the place. He does get up off the ground quickly though! :) I too hope a light goes off in his head and he gets a clue. He looked like a pee wee playing in a man’s game, almost funny really.
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
by buffalobacker on May 7, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
i want him suceed so much man,
I felt the same way about Trent Edwards, but eventually it’s make or break………
Girls use hair spray, Men don't.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!
Don't be a Paully!
by The Buffalo Kid on May 7, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
True, but when we cut Capt. Checkdown he was a few years older than Maybin. He’s still young, I say let’s wait and see.
But the amount of time I’m willing to wait is getting much shorter. If nothing after this season, then I officially give up on him.
by maestro110584 on May 8, 2011 9:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Age
Why is age considered a excuse? Hasn’t Maybin played every level of football? He couldn’t even make the starting roster for goodness sake. Yeah lets wait till he matures! Are you kidding me? Is Bill’s team a home for wayward, immature, millionaire kids? In a sense I quess so.
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
by buffalobacker on May 8, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
great gamble
if he gets to 80%+ it becomes a great move.
factor in the mentor thing, coupled with the new lb coach,…
Lets hope all Merriman pans out, Go Bills.
by Blood, sweat & Win on May 7, 2011 12:09 PM EDT reply actions
Kelsay
Out of position standing up, please sit down.
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
as there’s a group if five young pass rushers that will be asked to develop and contribute quickly, as well. (Because let’s face it – for all of the good that Chris Kelsay offers, he’s never been a dominant pass rusher, and is out of position standing up.)
That group includes the likes of Arthur Moats, Antonio Coleman, Danny Batten, Jammie Kirlew and, yes, even Aaron Maybin. Every one of those players – with the exception of Batten, who landed on IR, and Kirlew, who only spent part of his rookie season on Buffalo’s practice squad – has a year of experience as an outside linebacker in the Bills’ system.
Can we really count Maybin as a young pass rusher at OLB, with a year in the system?
I didn’t see him play 1 down last year standing up. The only time I saw him used was at RDE in Nickle and Dime. It seems like they have no interest in giving him some playing time at OLB in a 3-4.
Girls use hair spray, Men don't.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!
Don't be a Paully!
by The Buffalo Kid on May 7, 2011 12:17 PM EDT reply actions
Merriman mentoring Maybin...
I do believe this is a make or break year [barring an very extended lockout] for Maybin.
I thought I read somewhere he worked out with Ray Lewis after he was drafted. Now he has an ex All Pro in Merriman setting hopefully a good example and teaching details.
Anyone have any intel on what Merriman and Maybin are doing during this Lockout?
by StandingBillFan on May 7, 2011 12:19 PM EDT reply actions
Now he has an ex All Pro in Merriman setting hopefully a good example and teaching details.
You do realize of course that Merriman’s most productive years as a pro also happened to be when he was juicing, right?
Understand the juicing...
Guess I’m thinking more different moves, making reads, etc
by StandingBillFan on May 7, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Still just haven't seen...
any reports or postings on what the M & M brothers are up to this off season
by StandingBillFan on May 7, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
M&M's
Probably visiting juice bars!
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
by buffalobacker on May 7, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
im loving
how we are taking some chances on some old guys out of their prime (t.o. and Merriman) they aren’t that risky and they bring excitement throughout the fan base. plus if some of these veterans start to produce, Buffalo might be a destination city for others
by stickinwithBLO on May 7, 2011 12:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I agree
but I just think it is too bad they don’t go after some players that are actually… you know… um, good.
Boom
There it is. We pursue end of career/ injury prone has beens. Oh wait, thats right Merriman is a coach/mentor as is Kelsay. We need productive players, not more coaches/mentors.
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
by buffalobacker on May 7, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope
a coach/mentor as is Kelsay.
The excuse for Kelsay’s new contract is “He’s a good locker room presence” which is basically he keeps his head down and his mouth shut and does the best he can. Whitner could learn a lesson or two from Kelsay.
Girls use hair spray, Men don't.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!
Don't be a Paully!
by The Buffalo Kid on May 7, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Cool
If thats all it takes to play pro ball sign me up!
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
by buffalobacker on May 7, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Kelsay
He’s kind of like a 4-3 DE version of a poor man’s Phil Hansen.
He’s a fish out of water in a 3-4, but in a 4-3 he is not a star, but a blue collar end like Phil Hansen was in a 3-4, doesn’t do anything to make you dislike him, but does make you take notice of a play here and there where he did good. He just won’t ever get the career sack total Phil Hansen did, especially with the switch to the 3-4. I think Whitner has more talent than Kelsay, and Whitner has his 100+ Tackles, if he had the character and mindset of Kelsay, he would also have the contract extension he wants that is to his liking. Unfortunately Donte can’t keep his head down or his mouth shut.
Girls use hair spray, Men don't.
DO YOURSELF A FAVOR AND GROW UP BY NOT USING HAIRSPRAY MALES!
Don't be a Paully!
by The Buffalo Kid on May 7, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
If Whitner could learn from Kelsay
He’d still be on the team!
"Being a Bills Fan is a Tough Job for Tough People…" – Luther6
I’m glad somebody gets it. I just think the expectations around here have been so low that most feel any free agent signing is the Bills’ road to the Super Bowl.
I don’t get the Merriman signing and I never will. I think Nix was lost on some transcendental journey through his past wher he conveniently forgot all the ugly truths about what made him( Merriman) such a great player in the first place. That is now translating over to the Bills’ fan base because they either have short memories, they weren’t old enough to see it happen, or are just plain ignorant.
Yep
I think alot has to do with inability or lack of desire to pay for talent, hence building through draft. But why sign washed up players? Maybe it will sell tickets? Ralph only knows!
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
by buffalobacker on May 7, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
how old are you????
how we are taking some chances on some old guys out of their prime (t.o. and Merriman)
yeah, TO mat fall into that cat, but he’s in better physical shape than the majority (if not all) of this board I’m sure… As for Merriman…. google is your friend, use it before including him in that remark…
Went to my first "BB" meeting today... When I stood, introduced myself, and admitted I was a Billsaholic, the other members threw beer cans at me!!
fine
take out the old part…
by stickinwithBLO on May 8, 2011 10:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Great story brian.
I think it was pretty obvious with the draft that chix is depending on Merriman and the young guys: Moats, Batten and Coleman. I.can’t wait to see these guys play and rotate in. If healthy, it could be real, real smart sign of Merriman.
Lets Go Buff a lo!!!
by bflo on May 7, 2011 12:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Is Torbor still involved?
I think I remember him playing a fair share of OLB, and Pro Football Focus occasionally lauded him.
Torbor???
Pro Football Focus occasionally lauded him
Sorry, but he’s a joke at LB… He was simply a fill in when we needed vet experience, but I’ll be surprised if he makes it through the first cut down…. Same goes for the Ayodele fans…
Went to my first "BB" meeting today... When I stood, introduced myself, and admitted I was a Billsaholic, the other members threw beer cans at me!!
another gamble
maybe the bills think that 2 guys are needed to stop both Meatball and Marcel.if it happens, the pass rush become easier even with maybin and moats will become a sack artist, he will end brady’s career too,lol
proud to be a die hard bills fan from france
Draft 2011:1CB Peterson,2DE Heyward,3ILB Sturdivant,4NT Taylor,4RB Royster,5RT Brewer
A QB killer…I can see it now.
by maestro110584 on May 8, 2011 9:11 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
also worth noting
Merriman is much bigger than Maybin. Like 30 to 40 pounds bigger, so they really aren’t that similar in body type. In addition, Merriman utilizes power in his game along with speed. Aaron Maybin has to power to speak of.
by Saint Patrick on May 7, 2011 4:25 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yeah
Ones a gimp, the other a wimp. :)
A QB is like a King in chess, if you don't have one you lose! Get a QB Buffalo!
.
by buffalobacker on May 7, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Every one of those 5 players,
except for 2 of them. :P
Maybin has a cult following too!
We’re waiting for him to get cut…………
"Being a Bills Fan is a Tough Job for Tough People…" – Luther6
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