Bills 41, Chiefs 7: Three Good And Three Bad
by Der Jaeger on Sep 12, 2011 8:00 AM EDT
in Buffalo Bills Opinion
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On Sunday, the Buffalo Bills opened their 2011 regular season schedule with a 41-7 shellacking of the Kansas City Chiefs at Arrowhead Stadium. The beating was so thorough, and the performance of the team so excellent, that it's tough to cobble together points of concern moving forward after this one. Let's give it our level best before getting to the really good stuff.
The Bad
Pass Rush. This is the glaring weakness thus far. Early in the game, Chris Kelsay and Marcell Dareus combined to force Matt Cassel into a sack. Later, Kyle Williams muscled through the line, and Buffalo got another sack. Then Shawne Merriman hurt his right arm, and everything changed. Buffalo pressured Cassel a few times, but never truly rattled him around like good pass rushing teams can. Though Merriman returned to the game, he looked like he was half-stepping, trying more to be assignment sound and avoid injury than disrupt the Chiefs. It's been said by a few that Buffalo is one great, dominant pass rusher away from having a great defense. Evidence of that was on display at Arrowhead today.
C.J. Spiller's involvement in the offense. Again, this is another glaring weak spot from a otherwise good offensive performance. Spiller is not a running back for all seasons. There's a lot he can do, but there are some specific things that Spiller can't be used for. Short-yardage is one of those things. Fred Jackson bulled his way through the Chiefs defense, setting up 2nd-and-1, but is tired. Spiller is not the guy to enter the game. Either go spread, or get Johnny White in the game. Spiller is not going to power for the first down. It's not his game. Neither is goal line offense. If Spiller is going to get his Reggie Bush-esque 15 touches per game, they have to be better than what he got Sunday.
Donald Jones on fade patterns. I like Jones. He's a good receiver. But he's not David Nelson or even Stevie Johnson, who can use a size advantage on the fade pattern. Jones is thickly built, but only six feet tall. I don't see practices, and maybe Ryan Fitzpatrick and Jones connect all the time there. But in Fitzpatrick's last two regular season games (New England and Kansas City), we've seen a determination to get Jones the ball deep - and we've seen Jones miss time and again on jump balls. To go deep, a receiver can seperate via size (Johnson) or with speed (that Baltimore receiver). Jones has neither in abundance. Put Marcus Easley outside and get Jones in the slot, or have Jones run another type of pattern. He's shown that he's got capability - just not on jump-ball fades.
The Good
Team Defense. Wow. Aside from the lack of a natural, consistent ability to rush the quarterback, Buffalo played well. I was struck by the team's sound fundamentals. Buffalo didn't miss many tackles. The standard NFL shoulder tackle was replaced by actual wrapping up. Aside from the Chiefs' scoring drive, Buffalo was very assignment sound. Fans can't expect any defense to stop Jamaal Charles, Dwayne Bowe, and Dexter McCluster. Buffalo did limit the damage by remaining in position. The size advantage we've all been discussing was obvious. Bills tacklers arrived with a thud. I know the stat line will always read that Kansas City ran for 108 yards and six yards per carry. That's actually good work against the best rushing team from 2010.
Receivers. Some Buffalo Rumblings writer has been saying for a while now that Buddy Nix has been assembling a big group of receivers, just like he had in San Diego. Cue Morpheus: "Now do you believe?" 13 of Fitzptrick's 17 completions were to the "tall" receivers: Johnson, Nelson, and Scott Chandler. Johnson looks like he's going to continue to get open in spread formations, and looked overpowering on his leaping touchdown grab. Nelson's wingspan means he's always open, and Chan Gailey used him a lot like a flex tight end against the Chiefs. He caught a lot of the underneath patterns, and turned some of them into more. Speaking of tight ends, Chandler channeled his inner Rob Gronkowski, catching five balls mostly in traffic or away from a defender with his ridiculous wingspan. Most of Buffalo's receivers have a natural quality that can't be taught: size. Aside from Brandon Flowers and Javier Arenas, the Chiefs have some taller defensive backs. Just not tall enough.
Offensive Playcalling and Execution. Kansas City is not some downtrodded group. This is the defense of the defending AFC West champions. The No. 11-rated defense a year ago. They are coached by defensive guru Romeo Crennell. No matter. Chan Gailey called a great game, and Fitzpatrick executed well. Fitzpatrick completed an un-Fitzpatrick-like 68 percent of his passes. Some of Buffalo's drives stalled, and Buffalo's offense was handed some great field position. But Gailey stuck to running Jackson, didn't get too cute, and took advantage of his players. Fitzpatrick, a new team captain and firmly in grip of the car keys, threw four touchdowns and guided the offense to 41 points.
Overall
Either Buffalo is much improved, the Chiefs are really rusty, or the Chiefs were a mirage last season. Bills fans would like to believe the first reason. Though the win was big, there's no reason to up any expectations from the Bills just yet. Buffalo's defense will be given a stout challenge from an arch nemesis next weak in the form of the strong power running game that Oakland will bring to Ralph Wilson Stadium. It's one thing to be in position to stop 200-pound backs like Charles; it's completely different than stopping the unrelenting series of power runs that Hugh Jackson will call. At least for one game, however, Bills fans saw one thing: the Nix plan has a chance at working. This team is bigger and more physical. The passing game lost nothing without Evans. The offensive line held up well, and the cast of a thousand cutdown day waiver claims played well. This game should be mostly about hope that Nix and Co. know what they are doing.
Next up: Oakland comes to Ralph Wilson Stadium on September 18 with a 1PM kickoff.
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Congratulations from a Lions fan for the most dominant win of Week One.
I don’t believe that the Chiefs were as good as their record of 2010, but beating any team 41 to 7 on the road [and Arrowhead is usually a pretty big homefield advantage] is very impressive.
I only caught small parts of your game as my Lions were playing at the same time, but I have to say that your O Line really surprised me the most.
Enjoy the moment guys, hopefully more to come.
PS – Please beat those damn Jets.
"Filling a need doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting a good player," said Schwartz. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that best fits; it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that’s better than what you have already."
by NorthLeft12 on Sep 12, 2011 8:13 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Thanks & Same to You
I always pull for the Lions — another blue collar, Great Lakes team that’s had it rough for a long time. It was great to see the Lions dominate yesterday.
Your front four are pretty fearsome. Hopefully Stafford can stay healthy and you guys can break this playoff drought. We’d love to break to do it this year, too.
I hope some day to see the Bills and Lions square off in the Super Bowl. Though i’d really love it if the Bills could get back there again and face the Vikings. Why? Both teams are 0-4 in Super Bowls. One would be guaranteed a win finally. I think it’d make for great theater.
But some day, we need a Bills-Lions superbowl. Maybe once Suh has retired. =)
In the year two thousaaaaaaand.
In the year two thousAAAAAAND!
by TheAfghanTwilight on Sep 12, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, we have not won a Super Bowl either.
Screw those damn Vikings.
"Filling a need doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting a good player," said Schwartz. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that best fits; it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that’s better than what you have already."
by NorthLeft12 on Sep 12, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I see a fair bit of the Bills as I am a Canadian and CTV carries the Bills games on Sunday for the most part.
I think you are dead on in that fans from this area, I’ll include the Browns fans too, love physical hard working teams.
The Lions will go as far as Stafford will take us. I like what he is doing so far. Believe it or not he has plenty of room for improvement and the coaching staff needs to put a little more trust in him. We went too conservative in the fourth quarter and let them back into the game.
Hope we meet in the playoffs.
"Filling a need doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting a good player," said Schwartz. "It doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that best fits; it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re getting a player that’s better than what you have already."
by NorthLeft12 on Sep 12, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
pass rush
Yes it was lack luster but we rarely blitzed and I believe they were playing run contain all game and worked. I’ve said that I think we blitz less with wannstedt here but we will make up with that for more fundlemental football in both the run and pass
by eze on Sep 12, 2011 8:25 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
My thought exactly.
Blitzing creates lanes.
In Ralph we trust
by RICHNESSS on Sep 12, 2011 10:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
thanks DJ
Great summary (as always). What struck me was Spiller’s lack of progress. I think it is made more glaring by Jackson’s efficiency. Rarely do you see Jackson hesitate, stutter-step, or be tentative. Conversely, these traits still appear to be Spiller’s tools of the trade (so far). I think you can add frustration to the list. Watching him go to the side line shaking his head as if to say, “how does Freddie do it?” is unsettling. His confidence does not appear to be high given his body language.
Also, your comments on the receivers were spot on. Watching Romo serve it up to Bryant last night (before his cramping) was an illustration of what a big receiver can do, even against quality defenders. It caused the Jets to alter their coverages. The Dallas “O” wasn’t the same with Bryant hobbled. I think the key to this unit going forward will be Fitz’s accuracy. If he can place the ball where it needs to be, it will continue to be fun. I agree with your comment and do not see Jones as a “go up and get it” guy especially on a fade.
Y'all- There's a "D" in rebuild, but no "O"- The gospel according to Buddy Nix 4:12
@ Fansince60
Fred Jackson is a beast. He gets yards that most backs on other teams don’t get. I don’t know how he always seems to find a seam to slide through. He’s just a damn good player. I think when CJ is in the game the blocking isn’t as good either, for some reason. Watch the plays when he gets the ball and it seems the DL is in the backfield by the time he gets the ball. It’s strange.
It is not the blocking that is the difference. Fred has elite vision and balance. Fred broke several tackles behind the line yesterday, one resulting in a huge 3rd down conversion. Fred sees the defense while getting the hand off and never stops moving forward towards the “best” crease. CJ stops when the assigned hole is plugged and tries to restart in another direction. And CJ allows the first contact to take him down whereas Fred is seldom stopped by the first hit as his balance is elite.
by WhatGoesAround on Sep 12, 2011 8:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
when CJ is in the game the blocking isn’t as good either, for some reason.
The blocking is the same. The “reason” is Jackson. That was my point. Jackson’s ability makes Spiller’s ability seem less. Spiller has a different style but his “problem” at the moment is his tentative running. And that is made more obvious by Jackson’s decisiveness.
Y'all- There's a "D" in rebuild, but no "O"- The gospel according to Buddy Nix 4:12
by fansince60 on Sep 12, 2011 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with you, partially
I definitely agree that Jackson made Spiller seem less able. Jackson had, no doubt about it, a phenomenal game on Sunday. On the other hand, I’m not seeing quite the same level tentativeness that you’re seeing. Firstly, he only got five carries, which makes it difficult in general to evaluate. He had a nice patient bit of running on first carry (a 7 yard gain), and made an excellent decision on his last carry (the 9 yard touchdown). On the remaining three, it looked to me like he got what he could. Frankly I don’t think he had much of chance on that 2nd and 2. All in all, a solid, if not Freddie Jackson like outing.
The problem, as DJ alludes to in his piece is: where are Spiller’s touches in space? Thats where the guy is going to be most dangerous. We haven’t really seen that as a consistent part of the playbook so far with him. Fortunately we didn’t need that today.
There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not
by PozDispenser on Sep 12, 2011 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't understand...
the intense criticism of Spiller’s performance in this game.
On two of his five carries, a defender was already on top of him as he was getting the handoff—on one the defender almost took the handoff, he was that close. Spiller had no forward momentum on either play. His first carry was a nice 7 yard run and, on his last carry, he made a terrific cut—the kind of cut he couldn’t/didn’t make last year—to get in the end zone.
It’s really unfair to judge a player’s running ability on just five carries to begin with, but on at least two of those carries Spiller ran with far more authority than he did in any game last season.
And, it’s even more unfair to expect Spiller to run over defenders early in a game like Fred Jackson did at the end of the half or in the second half: first of all, Spiller is more of a Jamal Charles type, “hit the hole and run to daylight” runner, while Jackson has more power in his game (he’s a more like a Thomas Jones-a blend of power, speed and smoothness, but without the top-end breakaway speed); and, secondly, even Freddy wasn’t running over people early in the first quarter—unless he’s a pure power runner, it usually takes RBs a few carries to get into a rhythm before they start running through defenders.
If you just focus on what Spiller did on those handful of carries, though, you missed the rest of what Spiller did in the game: he showed that he could be trusted as a pass blocker when he was held in to block for Fitzpatrick (no huge saving blocks, but an improvement over last year) and he was repeatedly split out wide as a receiver, drawing coverage from a corner or safety that helped give the Bills’ inside receivers, Nelson and Chandler, room in the middle of the field. Go back and look and you will see that KC paid a lot of attention to Spiller when he flanked out wide as a receiver.
Spiller isn’t a Reggie Bush-type: he isn’t as elusive, but can take more of a pounding. Nor is he a Barry Sanders-type, although there are some similarities in how they need to be used. Spiller is an explosive, one-cut, get to the hole fast, get through it and go runner. If the hole is where it’s supposed to be, he hits it and is gone. But, if the hole isn’t open, he’s not really shifty enough to make an opening or change gears or powerful enough (at least not yet) to power through people. Based on his college career, he’ll get stopped for little or no gain or for negative yardage a fair amount, but then break a big gainer when he gets a crease. A RB like this needs to get the ball a fair amount and have a pretty good run-blocking line in front of him—if he does, he can put up big numbers because he’s a threat to score anytime he has the ball in his hands with his speed…but he’s also going to get stopped cold a fair amount as well, so you have to take the bad with the good.
There were two problems with Spiller that were cited by the coaching staff last year and in the offseason: like most rookie RBs, his blocking wasn’t very good and, more importantly, he wasn’t being patient with his runs and waiting for the holes to open.
And these criticisms were spot on.
But, there have to be holes for Spiller to hit in order for him to be effective and the Bills haven’t exactly had the most overpowering run-blocking. Still, while Spiller was hit in the backfield twice before he could get started on Sunday, on the 7 yard gain and the TD run, he did a nice job of waiting and getting to the hole on time—a big improvement over last year. The TD run was very impressive because he made the kind of cut and hit the hole with the kind of burst that would have allowed him to score (or at least have a big run) from anywhere on the field. It showed that he’s starting to “get it” and can do it in the NFL. Now he has to show the coaches that he can make that kind of patient, yet explosive run consistently and against better opponents from week to week. It was only a 9 yard run in garbage time, but it was the first time Spiller has done what he needs to do in order to be the kind of factor in the NFL that the Bills coaches are looking for him to become.
Combine that with his improved blocking and the effect that he had on the Chiefs’ pass defense, even though he didn’t catch a pass while split wide, and Spiller showed me the kinds of signs of improvement that indicate that he can become a positive factor for the Bills as the season progresses. He’s not Freddy Jackson and can’t replace or in some cases even do the kinds of things that Freddy does—they bring different things to the table and the Bills are going to need both.
I think it’s really premature to dismiss him at this point—after one game into his second season, a game in which he got to carry the ball a measly 5 times and where the offensive line didn’t block for him on at least 2 of those 5 carries, and where he still did some positive things and showed improvement over last season in the areas that his coaches cited as his weaknesses.
Those who do not learn fromt eh past are doomed to repeat it.
by LifetimeBillsFan on Sep 13, 2011 2:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice analysis DJ!
Summary is what happened. Analysis is what you did.
I’m really impressed with the Bills improvement. Frankly, it’s really difficult figure out Bills controlling Charles, Bowe and McCluster together.
On the other hand, I agree that Fred is a beast. He simply reminds me Franco Harris. Actually none has compared him with this legend. Fred is elite.
I didn’t see much of the game, but I heard Gannon discussing Spiller, saying that the lockout may have hurt Spiller more than many other players.
I wouldn’t be surprised. I also won’t be surprised if he suffers the same sort of fate that Bush found. I still think that to be a successful teammate, a player needs to do one thing REALLY well. So far, what does Spiller do well on the field?
I’m disappointed for Fred that Spiller got the TD. He did all the work, it seems.
In the year two thousaaaaaaand.
In the year two thousAAAAAAND!
by TheAfghanTwilight on Sep 12, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
The Bad – Pass Rush. This is the glaring weakness …
Even after a year I do not know what George Edwards defensive style is. The lead was 27-7 shortly into the 3rd qtr, and this was the first time the Bills were in this situation (big lead, good team). It is possible he was calling bend-don’t-break style plays, not using blitz-heavy schemes. Since Charles seemed to be the only Chief causing damage earlier it appeared the D was adjusted to limit him specifically, and the result was zero points given up in the second half.
I am just conjecturing here. This is something perhaps someone can analyze further?
Year two is upon us.
by Buffalo for Eternity on Sep 12, 2011 8:26 AM EDT reply actions
You can blitz a running team
but gap responsibility are harder to account for, so it is more common not to (unless you are the Jets, who do it really well).
I agree with all that you wrote above, but have a few additional things on my, “I might be concerned about this in a few weeks” list. I’m not concerned yet, but if this team is for real, these things might keep them from being a playoff team (Did I just say that?)
We are still pretty bad at covering tight ends. George Wilson, in the first quarter, made an embarrassing tackle attempt on Pope. As he’s coming in for the tackle, I said to my wife “He’s standing straight up…that guy’s too big”. The positioning of the safeties relative to the tight end worried me some, but not enough to say I’m worried about it yet.
Brian Moorman. Repeated punts through the end zone. Man. The Bills won the field position battle, but imagine if they had pinned the Chiefs inside the 5 once or twice. If the Bills are going to knock off the Pats or Jets, he’s going to need to hit one of those. I think that the only punt inside the 20 was at like the 15. I worry he’s turning into just another punter. He’s not at that point yet, but I see a day where Moorman has real competition in camp. Of course, maybe he’ll show his true worth when the Bills need him to flip field position, but I’d like a little more touch out of him.
Terrance McGee is injured again….sigh.
Should I worry that Merriman was invisible today?
What is the outcome if the Bills don’t jump out to the early lead? I know that it doesn’t matter, but I say this because Charles average 6 yards a carry. Did the run D feel better b/c they Chiefs didn’t run much?
What a great game, though. I said to my wife last Sunday that I have this weird feeling that the Bills are going to win and it won’t even be close, but I’m not sure if that’s blind faith or if thye actually might be good. A great start, but the cautious Bills fan in me wants to keep the 4-0 start in 2008(?) in the back of my mind. They need wins against the Raiders and Bengals for sure and I just need to see them show the Pats they are for real.
I’m excited to see Troup next week (hopefully).
Also: Former Bills watch: Poz had 1 solo tackle and 3 assited tackles, Lee Evans had 0 catches, and Whitner had 5 solo tackles (I checked last night, so my memory might be off on the Whitner numbers, but pretty close.)
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 8:26 AM EDT reply actions
Agree on most of your points.
Should I worry that Merriman was invisible today?
I didn’t actually watch the game, so my opinion might be a little off, but I was listening on the radio and the guys mentioned Merriman was double teamed on quite a few plays. I think that his contribution had more to do with presence yesterday than actual stats.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
I won’t be surprised if Merriman’s role is as the defensive version of Lee Evans.
In the year two thousaaaaaaand.
In the year two thousAAAAAAND!
by TheAfghanTwilight on Sep 12, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I did watch the game...
and Merriman was double teamed a lot!
I noticed that, too
The Chiefs were double-teaming Merriman a lot whenever he was in the game, even after he came back on the field after hurting his shoulder. I think, given that he was getting double-teamed, Merriman did slow down after he was hurt (at least it seemed that way to me). With the Bills handily in front at that point, it almost seemed as if he was content to draw the two blockers and not get hurt and leave it up to the other guys to put the pressure on.
It also seemed as if the Bills were playing more to contain the Chiefs, especially in the second half, rather than send extra men to pressure Cassel. That made a lot of sense to me, given that the Bills’ CBs were doing a great job of taking D.Bowe out of the game and, without Bowe as an option, the Chiefs’ biggest playmakers were Charles and McCluster. Keep them from scoring or making a big gain (which the Bills did brilliantly) and KC pretty much had no chance of getting back in the game.
Those who do not learn fromt eh past are doomed to repeat it.
by LifetimeBillsFan on Sep 13, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice additional comment too...
It’s really original the Former Bills watch corner. I didn’t like Poz and Whitner from the beginning. Thanks God they are history. Evans had 0 catches, but his impact on offense is simply unquestionable.
Your comments about Wilson are extremely possitive and important. He is now a team leader and his confidence has an unmeasurable impact on secondary. If he gets hurt Aaron Williams is still miles away to bring that confidence.
Are you excited to see Troup?… Why?!!! As Kelsay, he is one of my top candidates to be urgently included in your Former Bills corner…
???
I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic with this or not. I’m not sure if you are adding to or rebutting my Wilson comment? Can you deny that Wilson’s tackling technique on Pope was awful? He provides some leadership, and I think he’s an upgrade over Whitner, but let’s see if that’s good enough. Plus, Williams wouldn’t come in for Wilson b/c Williams is a corner. I thought Byrd has a pretty good day as far as tackling goes. I’m also going to suggest it’s very possible that the Bills are OK with the TEs catching the ball in game like that and the safeties are covering the WRs over the top and moving up to make tackles on the TEs.
I am excited to see Troup b/c if this team is to be successful, he will need to be a big part of the defensive line rotation against a team like Oakland that will try to pound the ball for an entire game. I’m excited to see if he can do it. Jury is definately still out.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
George Wilson had a good game overall
I agree that that was a dreadful tackle attempt on Pope, but aside from that I thought George Wilson played a very solid game. He had a number of strong run stops, including that incredible tackle on Charles when Wilson bashed his helmet into the football and jarred it loose, resulting in a recovered fumble. I also noticed a ton of plays when Wilson was supposed to be right behind the receiver as a back-up in the event the CB missed on the play, and he was always there in perfect position. I continue to regard him as an upgrade from Donte Whitner, who was alleged to be fast but always seemed late getting to where he was supposed to be.
In my original comment, that was the only negative thing I said about Wilson. I agree he’s an upgrade over Whitner and don’t think he had a bad game, it was merely pointing out that a flaw of the D from last year didn’t seem to be a ton better, even in dominant win.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m 100% agree with your comments. I was trying to emphazise the importance to continue develop Wilson’s tackling technique. We need punishment on defense. Especially on secondary.
The reason I’m not excited is that he is injury prone. He is not the player he was on college. Anyway, we should be excited if he can do it.
7 of KC's first 9 carries were for 3 yds or less
and take away Charles’ one big run and McCluster’s long run and the Chiefs averaged 3.3 yards per carry.
Early in the game, when the game was still in the balance, the Bills’ defense did a good job of stopping the running game, which kept KC from running the play-action passes that they love to run and led to the 3 and outs (one 4 and out) that gave the Bills the chance to build on their lead.
Can the Bills do that against a power-running team like Oakland? We’ll find out this week.
But, they did look better against the run than they were the last couple of seasons. Let’s hope they can continue to make the key stops against the run when they need to.
Those who do not learn fromt eh past are doomed to repeat it.
by LifetimeBillsFan on Sep 13, 2011 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Im worried,
about the wide receiving corps. We had a couple bad drops early, some could say that should be expected in the first game, jitters, what have you.
If you noticed the amount of time Fitz had to throw the ball. Good because he had time to throw the ball, bad because he didnt have anyone to throw to. When Fitz did throw, you would notice how many passes went to the sidelines, or to TE Chandler.
This raises a red flag with me. Yea there were over 200 yrs passing and im not trying to be a Debbie downer, but, going up against better teams with bigger pass rush and a more solid D secondary, there are some issues that need to be addressed.
Dont fool yourself by saying that we dont miss Lee Evans. How many times did we go deep? Throw in the middle of the field? We had short passes that didnt allow the receivers to break it for a big YAC. Maybe Chan designed it this way to maximize the talent we have, but, are we going to be able to pull of the big play downtown when we really need it?
They played a great game no doubt about it. Maybe its time to split out Spiller and use him as a wide out due to his lack of commitment to hitting holes and inability to break tackles. I think this would give us more of an edge in the receiving game.
Great game from the Bills cant wait to see what they can do this year.
How many times did we go deep?
How many times did we go deep last year? This offense isn’t designed to do that. That’s why Evans had such a horrible year last year. If the tight end is more involved in the offense, that will open up parts of the field that the covergae being shifted to Evans used to do.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Like I said,
Maybe Chan designed it this way to maximize the talent we have, but, are we going to be able to pull of the big play downtown when we really need it?
I understand, but the point was missing Lee Evans. I was just saying that we didn’t go deep very often with Evans last year.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
.
with bigger pass rush and a more solid D secondary
KC has a VERY well respected pass rusher in Tamba Hali. Our O-line did a great job of making him a non factor. Their CBs are considered first rate and among the best tandems in the league. We took what they gave us, and if not for the injury to (Pope?) their secondary would have been tougher. He was their primary TE coverage guy, and a Pro bowler last year.
"Being a Bills Fan is a Tough Job for Tough People…" – Luther6
Here’s the thing…their secondary wasn’t that great last year, so why did everyone think they would shut down our passing game. I was confused about that myself.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, they ranked 17th in pass defense last year…pretty middle of the road. But then again, that is also skewed by many other things. The Bills were ranked 3rd last year in pass defense.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
KC dosen’y have a good secondary? that is news to me.
by cencalclassics on Sep 12, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
They’re middle of the road. They ranked 17th last year. Now yes, that doesn’t take into account certain other factors, like how much they were run on vs. passed on, but their secondary is not in the top third of the league.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
I would love
for the young receivers to prove me wrong against a better defense. Regardless of who or who did not play on KC I know that they are not the best defense we are going to play this year.
Fact is there are a lot of guys that still have to prove themselves, along with Stevie. He still has to prove he is our number one guy in the #1 spot the whole season. Sorry for the doubt but I think as a Bills fan I’ve earned it.
The jury is still out on most of this team, as far as the WR’s, we’ll let the players performance do the talking in the weeks to come.
Add to the good
I thought the play-calling was borderline masterful yesterday. My favorite aspect of the play-calling in terms of the season-long ramifications was the short yardage wildcat use. Buffalo’s ability to convert short yardage situations has been atrocious spanning three or four coaching staffs. Adding Brad Smith may have cured these woes overnight. I was really excited to see the goaline use of the wildcat before the two false starts screwed it up and I was glad to see Smith show off the gun (even though it got picked) late in the game so that it’s out there on film for teams to think about. I think Gailey is ahead of the curve with his use of Brad Smith for short yardage and it’s going to pay big dividends for the Bills this year.
"There's only one C.J. Spiller." -Buddy Nix
by Port Royal on Sep 12, 2011 8:41 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Yeah…I’m not going to lie though, 2nd and goal on the 1/2 yard line? I was a little annoyed with the playcal there, but it ultimately didn’t matter.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was a great call.
They couldnt stop the wildcat on short yardage situation.
I like when Brad Smith got the ball in those situations, you notice how the linebackers didnt rush through the line immediately, Smith would always delay a split second before running the ball. They MUST respect the pass. This allows Smith to get the yards that he needs as well as the opportunity for a pass play.
On third and 1/2 yard I might agree. On second down, it’s a little too cute for my liking. But, if they score anyway, they can be as cute as they want with their playcalling.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Also
I’m not sure how many years D. Nelson has on his contract, but if it is an either/or scenario, I would rather they lock up Nelson than Parrish. He is a perfect slot receiver for this offense.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Sep 12, 2011 8:56 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I most heartily agree. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again – David Nelson is a winner.
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
by thefourwinds on Sep 12, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
The Good?
The bills showed up to play. They were sharp, focused, and fired up. compare that to week1 against the dolphins last year with trent at QB.
gailey and fitz have absolute control over this locker room, and theres a lot of young guys in it who gained a lot of confidence in themselves yesterday. i really, really like that combination
I’m not any more concerned about Merriman today than I was at Noon yesterday. The Bills were very conservative defensively – Drayton Florence said on WGR 550 this morning that they only played four coverages the whole game – and Merriman looked like he was easing himself into things, perhaps as instructed.
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
@BrianGalliford
by Brian Galliford on Sep 12, 2011 8:57 AM EDT reply actions
it looked to me like merriman was either playing not to get hurt (ease himself in, as you said), or he was gassed. if im right, i dont think either one is unexpected nor a cause for concern
I thought Merriman may have really hurt his shoulder and backed off from there on out. I wonder if it is ok. It appeared as thoughh he was hurt as he dove, ala superman, at a running back cutting through the left side of the line, as he lay on the turf with arms out but on the runner another big bodied Bill landed square on Merriman’s back, driving his chest down while his arms were still on the runner forcing his shoulders to subluxate backwards . I thought his shoulder popped out of joint for a moment. It will be interesting to see if we hear anything about an injury to Merriman’s shoulder.
The announcing team was so clueless they never mentioned the injury despite Merriman flapping his arm like a chicken while holding his shoulder.
by WhatGoesAround on Sep 12, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
This
I thought the same thing when his arm was out, and the rest of the defense landed on him. Hope its only a stinger, but when he returned to the game, he was favoring that right arm. And for pass rushing, that right arm is key.
I hope you’re right, Brian. I"m personally hoping that the “easing him in” – which makes perfect sense, is a culmination package of his physical acclimation and of not showing too much until the Pats visit. Tom meet Shawne. Shawne, this is TinkerBell. Smack his head.
by LeClaire Bill on Sep 12, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of the good was about coaching and injuries
I’m not convined that the Bills run defense is very good. KC came out with a horrible offensive game plan, dink and dunk with the passing game. They fell behind so early and so fast that they never got to running the ball. I’ve seen this over the past few years, good running teams that think they can pass their way to success against the Bills end up in trouble.
Kudos to the OL and pass blocking. There was assignment trouble on a couple of blitzes, but fortunately KC didn’t blitz much. Things will probably be different in the future.
Chandler looked good because Eric Berry was injured and KC had no Plan B. Bad coaching on KC’s part. On the other hand, the Bills didn’t seem to skip a beat when McGee left. I saw Williams get a talking to after the KC TD. It was third down, let Charles catch the ball and tackle him short rather than gambling on the knockdown or interception. Fortunately it didn’t hurt and he is taking the lesson to heart.
David Nelson is smooth as silk. He wasn’t thrown easy balls. Nelson even held the difficult pass that was ruled out of bounds. He’d have huge stats if Manning or Brady was throwing to him.
Is Dink & Dunk Matt Cassel’s forte? Isn’t that realy all he’s good at?
In the year two thousaaaaaaand.
In the year two thousAAAAAAND!
by TheAfghanTwilight on Sep 12, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good game guys...
As a Chiefs fan I would have wanted to see the score the other way, but you all single handedly kicked our butts.
Now give it to Oakland!!! I know Chan harbors an inner hatred for those guys too!
Go Chiefs!!!!
by ravenhawk on Sep 12, 2011 9:06 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Kudos to Chiefs fans
I watched the game with a bunch of you folks at a bar in Brooklyn, and enjoyed every minute of it. The Chiefs were passionate about their team, but still friendly. Good on you folks.
There's nothing an agnostic can't do if he doesn't know whether he believes in anything or not
by PozDispenser on Sep 12, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
About this...
I know Chan harbors an inner hatred for those guys too!
Doesn’t everyone?
by ChuckBuffInFlo on Sep 12, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
They are
The Bills are improved, no question, but lack depth in certain areas. Here’s hoping we can avoid the injury bug!!
My notes... not that they matter.
- - I thought the pass rush was fine. Dareus was constantly in the backfield forcing Cassel to step up our out.
- - I think the blitz calling was superb too, bringing enough heat to hurry/hit/sack while leaving enough coverage on the field to make it a bad day for KC’s receivers.
- - I think the run defense was better than the stat line. Most of the yardage came off I believe two “big” plays, one by Charles for about 27 yards and another by McCluster for about 38 yards if I recall correctly. This was also when the game was already well in hand.
- - Spiller’s involvement was just about spot on. He’s still got a ways to go, but he showed a good bit more patience. Freddy on the other hand is just possibly the MOST underrated RB in the league. The one play where he squeezed through a hole that didn’t even exist, pretty much untouched between the tackle and guard was ridiculous. Looking at Chris White in the 4th quarter, he couldn’t move the Chiefs D-line even when trying. No reason not to play Spiller imho.
- - As said, the tackling was superb. I should also point out the lack of mental errors by the defensive backs. McKelvin looked solid, even if unremarkable.
- - Fitzpatrick. It’s amazing what a QB can do when he has the confidence of the team.
I think you meant Johnny White, #20
Looking at Chris White in the 4th quarter, he couldn’t move the Chiefs D-line even when trying.
Chris White is the linebacker, #51.
by ChuckBuffInFlo on Sep 12, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
“Either Buffalo is much improved, the Chiefs are really rusty, or the Chiefs were a mirage last season. Bills fans would like to believe the first reason.”
I think the first two are definitely true, and the third might be a possibility. Even if you take the part that the Chiefs were really bad yesterday, which they were, you have to be impressed with the Bills overall execution. They just looked like they knew what they were doing yesterday. Very few penalties and miscues, zero turnovers except for the Brad Smith pick which basically amounted to the same thing as a punt. I’m still blown away at how solid the defense was.
It’s kinda hard not to get carried away by one game (we were shouting Super Bowl at 4 oclock yesterday in our beer induced victory stupor), but it certainly looks like the Bills are going to be a force to be reckoned with this year.
Fitzpatrick completed an un-Fitzpatrick-like 68 percent of his passes.
I love reading copy like this. Fitzpatrick is in the best position of his NFL career: leading an improving team tailored to his game. I’m sticking with my earlier assessment of him as a young gun on the rise. He has not hit his ceiling yet by a long shot. Extend that contract. The price goes up as the Bills keep winning.
by JapanJohn on Sep 12, 2011 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Really?
Fitzpatrick is a career 58% passer. You think that has more to do with where he’s played and they type of offense?
The only NFL QB to hit 68% of his passes in 2011 was Drew Brees. Even Brady and Peyton Manning were around 66%.
I don’t doubt Fitzpatrick will improve. But he’s still going to be relatively inaccurate compared to other NFL QB’s. It’s near’y impossible to think that a team tailored to Fitapatrick will improve him to heights only one QB achieved last year, and two Hall of Fame QB’s couldn’t reach.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
In fairness, he never said that he’d be a 68% passer all year. He was just saying that he hasn’t hit his ceiling yet.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
To argue that 68% is Fitzpatrick-like holds no merit in factual statistics. Guys like Brady, Manning, and Brees have great days and hit 68%. 68% is un-Fitzpatrick like for a season or a game, and the statistics support my claim.
Starting the official Buffalo "Draft a Quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
…but where did he say that it was Fitzpatrick-like to achieve 68% pass completion?
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
Spiller is not going to power for the first down. It’s not his game. Neither is goal line offense.
I know this is the perception, but he did have that 9 yard TD run late in the game. Goal-line offense right there.
If the blocking is good he can turn it on at any part of the field.
by lord gloom on Sep 12, 2011 10:11 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
9 yards out is not the same as 2 yards out. Spiller (probably) doesn’t get that TD if he’s 6 or 7 yards closer to the goal line, in my opinion.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
But he might get that TD if hes 40 yards further away. He got the edge and outran the defense. Maybe the play underrates him rather than overrates him.
I have low expectations. But high hopes.
by greysquirrel on Sep 12, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t deny that. But it was not short yardage, which is what lord gloom alluded to.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
there was more in the quote than short yardage
Agree that short yardage isn’t his strong point, but what I was really talking about was the “goal line offense” part.
…which implies to me short yardage.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
if i could do it again
i’d post only the goal line part … for youuu <3
Spiller is one of those guys who will need a lot of touches to be effective – I’m not at all suggesting he is Barry Sanders, but every year Sanders would lead the league in carries for negative yards… Spiller is a home run hitter, and I think you need to live with a bunch of one and two yard carries and keep feeding him so he can pop the 60 yarders…
by JustAskTheAxis on Sep 12, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Spiller is a home run hitter
I don’t know how people can give him this excuse when he hasn’t actually hit a home run yet. I guess against that Pats last year in the passing game, but he’s done nothing since then.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
Did you see him in college? I know it’s a much different game, but he is explosive and can make people miss in space – look at his cut for the 9yd TD – most other guys can’t make that cut as effortless and then turn the corner the way he did… He’s obviously not a between the tackles guy, so I don’t know if he’ll be a 20 carry guy, but that’s what you need to give Spiller if you want him to be the guy you expect him to be…
by JustAskTheAxis on Sep 12, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
If he’s not a 20-carry guy, the Bills had no business drafting him in the first round. I hope they didn’t envision him becoming Reggie Bush Lite, leading up to the draft.
In the year two thousaaaaaaand.
In the year two thousAAAAAAND!
by TheAfghanTwilight on Sep 12, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t disagree with that at all – in fact, I don’t really think any RB’s should be drafted in the 1st round really, unless they’re a special case… spend those picks on guys who can open holes for 4th rounders!
by JustAskTheAxis on Sep 12, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I think as the season progresses we will see him more fully utilized in this offense. I think he will do big things this year
Never confuse movement with action.
~Ernest Hemingway
by NolaBillsFan on Sep 12, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I saw him in college. He was a home run hitter in college. That does not make him one in the pros until he, you know, actually starts hitting home runs.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
I think that expecting a home run with just 5 touches a game is being a little unrealistic.
"A deaf person can hear better than a ignorant person."- Unknown Comedian
I’m not sure what that has to do with anything. I didn’t say that I expected him to be a home run hitter. I said that calling him that is premature since he’s never done it.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
I said that calling him that is premature since he’s never done it.
He was a home run hitter in college.
My arguement is you can’t find out if he is a home run hitter in the NFL with just 5 rushing attempts in a game.
"A deaf person can hear better than a ignorant person."- Unknown Comedian
Yes, I understand your argument, and I agree with it. However, my point (and my only point) is that you cannot call him one until he actually starts doing it in the NFL.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
This is the #1 thing I noticed.
Buffalo didn’t miss many tackles.
They were wrapping up the legs and ankles. The one that sticks out the most was Chris White on the punt coverage on Dexter McCluster. White has no business tackling Dexter in open space, but it was perfect… Hes not going anywhere without his legs. I loved this about yesterdays game.
Fitz = M(C)²
"Lets Go Buff! a! lo!"
Byrd
had a really nice tackle on that dump pass, he read the play to perfection and made a beautiful stop, agree completely with this post.
by Buffalove83 on Sep 12, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The Pass Rush
did dissappear after the Merriman injury. At least the assault pass rush, there was more of a conservative approach to this aspect of the game and it very well could be attibuted to the fact that Charles and McCluster were the backs. To much of a rush could put these players in a position to do most damage. The fact that Duane Bowe was a none factor and the fact that there were early signs of the TE hurting and soon went away was all good with coverage and not pass rush.
Very dissappointed in the props the offensive line gets from the staff writers here on rumblings. This unit was solid and fundamentally sound all game in a very hostile environment against a very formibidable defense. Many readers look up to you DerJeager, Ron From NM, K and others and feed off of your analysis, yet you fail to point out in detail the unit’s contributions in the running game and pass protection for this offense. You are as we are all entitled to have our own opinions on performance issues and this unit played extrememly well. Without Bell LeVetrie, Wood, Urbik and Pears this game would of been totally different.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
by VanScottM on Sep 12, 2011 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Oline
played way better than expected. Especially the LT.
"Alright Men, lets go out there, bust um in the chops & get somebody bloody. Keep working hard till you get it right. Take the W in battle & make the Bills Nation Proud." coach Karma420
by Blood, sweat & Win on Sep 12, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Pears did get beat a couple times.
I think Bell was beat once. But there were two plays where Pears was definitely blown up by Hali. Still, two plays out of an entire game? I’ll take it.
I didn’t see Bell get beat, unless you include the overload corner blitz by Arenas, not sure Joe Thomas gets that block.. Levitre got burnt badly on one stunt, but I can count the “good grief” o-line plays on one hand. Yay!
I have low expectations. But high hopes.
by greysquirrel on Sep 12, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Pears
showed he might not be the quickest guy on that play for sure. Flip side would be Bell played well enough for them to send their pass rusher to the other side.
"Alright Men, lets go out there, bust um in the chops & get somebody bloody. Keep working hard till you get it right. Take the W in battle & make the Bills Nation Proud." coach Karma420
by Blood, sweat & Win on Sep 13, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Three good/ Three bad....Far more good than bad though.
The Bills played outstanding against the Chiefs. They forced turnovers and capitalized on them, contained the running game, and played “In” position most of the game, had consistent pressure to force throws, made outstanding field tackles, helped provide great field position and more. This is just Defensively!
Offensively, The Run game was punishing by Fred, O-line played gave Fitz time, TE was used perfectly, WR’s Johnson, Nelson stood out as what is now usual, Fitz 4TD, They moved the ball quite well, and more
The Good: Fred Jackson, punishing would be tacklers 100+ yrds
Defense, played w purpose and passion
Fitz, 4 TDs
The Bad: Spiller despite TD, struggled. Poor play call? bad blocking? He simply struggles to find the gaps, struggles w patience, Too fast for his own good.
#2 WR Jones? Again, despite TD, He has yet to “Get Open”. Struggles to beat his man and show separation. Fitz forced at least 2 throws which could have been INT! David Nelson should be list as #2 WR.
On Chiefs only scoring drive, some poor tackling which kept that drive moving.
Great game if your a Bills fan! It was nice for Buffalo to finally win the battle of field possession. Again they moved the ball and capitalized from turnovers…HUGE!
by Dareurush! on Sep 12, 2011 10:54 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Jones
I agree that Jones had trouble creating separation. His TD catch was pretty but he only had 6 inches on the CB and Fitzy through him a dart.
I sense Fitzy really wants him to get over the hump, kind of like a little brother.
Nelson was matched up with safeties yesterday and won’t be if he is an outside receiver. I am not saying he can’t do it, but I don’t see him having the speed to seperate from CBs playing outside. I really think Easley has to get healthy and make a push for Jones position.
Jones strikes me as a receiver that should model himself as a Hines Ward type catching crossing patterns and slants and using his strength to get yac. However, I t seems Chan wants to keep the middle of the field open for the slot receivers, TEs, RBs.
by WhatGoesAround on Sep 12, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Real nice
but will add- the TD catch by #19 was perhaps the best arial TD Ive seen by the Bill in a while, nearly flawless. Still like 11 & 86 more but we’ll see.
CJ needs a page or two out of the Thurminators playbook, or hit him in the flat / dump passes, let him run & get some confidence.
"Alright Men, lets go out there, bust um in the chops & get somebody bloody. Keep working hard till you get it right. Take the W in battle & make the Bills Nation Proud." coach Karma420
by Blood, sweat & Win on Sep 13, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m very happy to see this young team playing well to start the season as oppose to playing well in the middle of the season. The Bills should be fun to watch this year!
LOAD UP THE WAGON AND BLAST AWAY!!!
There is nothing worse than exaggeration!- Me
We all say, GO BILLS and I've always wondered, where do we want them to go? I guess to the Super Bowl! -Me
Nice DJ!
Summary is what happened. Analysis is what you did.
my 3 good, 3 bad....
3 bad –
1 – merriman – if he can’t play 100% we won’t be able to play with the big boys consistantly this year IMHO.
2 – McGee – we have a very short bench without him and anybody who thinks Mcgee’s injury is a good thing is waxck.
3 – Spiller – a bad start for Spiller no doubt. (and gailey as far as Spiller is concerned.. gailey who picked him, has to find a way to get him going).
Bonus # 4 – Fitzy irradic arm. He can’t have all those first half misses against the big boys.
Good….
1- defense – you saw the game… what a deifference from last year…. Kelsay had a good game!
2 – the second half – the chefs got that TD to end the half and I bet they thought they would come back in the second and the Bills, collectively destroyed them in the second half, Barnett on D and Fitzy on O took control and looked great!
3 – special teams – the Bills dominated a very good special teams group all game.
bonus 4 – Fred jacksom – To me, very clearly, the best plkayer on the field, I mean, no contest it was Fred!
bonus 5- and this is the biggest one – Our team is clearly headed in the right direction. We have some players!, let’s play the Aiders!
Go Bills!
PodunkO - The great post ender!
The biggest 'bad' i noticed
was the cbs commentating. How somebody can make so many mistakes in such a noticeable role and still have a job today is baffling. I’m not sure if it was Gannon or Albert, but either 1 or both of them are laughable. Hopefully a better team will mean they’ll stop giving us the ‘b’ list commentators.
I also thought Demetrius Bell had quite a nice game
Noticed a straight bullrush from Tamba Hali early in the game. Bell gritted up and took the full force of it and even pushed Hali back a few steps.
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