A Closer Look At Buffalo Bills Defensive Coordinator Dave Wannstedt
by Brian Galliford on Jan 3, 2012 10:30 AM EST
in Buffalo Bills Opinion
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PrintOn Monday, Buffalo Bills head coach Chan Gailey announced that he'd promoted Dave Wannstedt to defensive coordinator, a post from which he'd just released George Edwards. The move wasn't unforeseen by any means, but it's still brought up a lot of questions. Let's take a closer look at Wannstedt and what direction he may take the team's defense.
Wannstedt's History. When you get right down to it, Wannstedt has really only been an NFL defensive coordinator for five seasons, as he spent most of his time in the league as a head coach. He ran the Dallas Cowboys' defense for four years and won a Super Bowl ring in 1992, when the Cowboys had the No. 1-ranked defense in the league. Dallas had the No. 20-ranked defense (of 28 teams) in his first year, but Wannstedt coached them to a Top 10 status twice in four years. He also spent one year as the Miami Dolphins' defensive coordinator in 1999 (they had the No. 5-ranked defense that year) before taking over as head coach.
Wannstedt's longest sustained run of defensive success came in Miami as the head coach, where he pretty much let ace coordinator Jim Bates do his thing. Miami had a Top 10 defense in each of his five years in Miami (six if you count the year as defensive coordinator), and they got as high as a No. 3 ranking in 2002. Wannstedt also spent six years as the head coach of the Chicago Bears, where he coached a No. 4 defense in his first year, but generally had average-to-good rankings (ranging from Nos. 12 to 19).
Whether as head coach or coordinator, Wannstedt has never run anything other than a 4-3 defense. That remains true when considering his six years as the head coach at the University of Pittsburgh, as well.
On Scheme. GM Buddy Nix has been adamant that he's looking to acquire players for the 3-4 defense. Chan Gailey has now run both schemes in four years as an NFL head coach, and Wannstedt's strictly been a 4-3 guy. Clearly, these three men will need to sit down and try to figure out what they want to run, and that decision will be critically important moving forward. They'll base the overwhelming majority of that decision on the players currently at their disposal.
Defensive Line: Kyle Williams is still the team's best defender. Even when the Bills have played the 3-4, he's been playing techniques more commonly seen in the 4-3. He's a best fit in a 40 front. His running mate, Marcell Dareus, is genuinely capable of playing well in either front, so they have some flexibility there. Kellen Heard and Torell Troup are gap-plugging, run-down defensive tackles that could fit in either front playing zero or one technique, as well.
Spencer Johnson is also a better fit in the 4-3 as a three-technique defensive tackle; he lacks the length and athletic chops to play the 3-4 defensive end and outside linebacker positions he's been shoehorned into for the past two seasons. Dwan Edwards and Alex Carrington are better fits for the 3-4, but both could be situational strong-side defensive ends in the 4-3, as well - though neither would offer much of a pass rush off the edge.
Chris Kelsay and Kyle Moore are essentially defensive linemen, as well, and both are much better fits in the 4-3, where they'd play end with their hand in the dirt.
Linebacker: Shawne Merriman is the real wild card here, and not just because of his sketchy injury history. He's a true 3-4 outside linebacker, and while he has very little track record playing in a 4-3, it's conceivable that he could play a defensive end role - particularly if he's just a situational pass rusher. (That's a particularly intriguing notion, considering he's probably not an every-down defender at this point.)
Danny Batten and Arthur Moats are both too small to play defensive end in a 4-3, so Batten is still a best-fit in the 3-4, while Moats is harder to slot. The team hasn't been able to figure out what to do with him, playing him outside and in in their 3-4, so it's tough to figure how they'd slot him into a 4-3. He might be able to play some strong-side outside linebacker in that alignment, but would be an obvious coverage and run-down liability in that role.
Nick Barnett may be an even better fit as a 4-3 weak-side linebacker than he is as a 3-4 inside linebacker. Kelvin Sheppard, as a true inside linebacker, can play in either scheme, but limited athletic upside might make him a better long-term fit in the 3-4. Bryan Scott (an impending free agent) would have an easier time playing linebacker in a 4-3, where he could play the weak side or inside on occasion.
A Hybrid? Most NFL teams these days fold 30 and 40 front looks into their repertoire just to keep opposing offenses honest, and to try to create confusion. Especially for teams with lesser talent (like Buffalo), confusion is paramount for defensive success. As such, it's fair to assume at this point that the Bills will continue to run several different forms of defense under Wannstedt's guidance. I also believe it's fair to assume, however, that Wannstedt looks at his current roster - and perhaps Gailey does, as well - and sees a team that is still better-suited to run the 4-3 as its base defense.
Why? The team's best defenders (Williams and Barnett in particular) are best suited for the 40 front. Here's the problem, though: that look creates more holes. In the 3-4, the Bills desperately need edge players, and pass rushers in particular. That need remains in a 4-3, but they'd also need to re-structure a bit at linebacker, where they'd look particularly bad in both outside spots save for Barnett. If Wannstedt does decide to switch back to the 4-3 (and gets approval from Nix and Gailey), it probably won't be an immediate transition for that reason.
What say you, Bills fans? Are you in the 3-4 camp, or the 4-3 camp?
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Hybrid
Run a Hybrid where we have situational players to come in for specific situations. We just need to make sure we have enough every down players to do so.
Argh
The 3_4 experiment is over. Back to the 4_3 at warp speed.
by Mindbender14 on Jan 3, 2012 10:55 AM EST via Android app reply actions
Really?
You do know during this “3-4 experiment” we’ve run more 4-3 than 3-4. Also we havent gotten ANY quality OLB’s. The 3-4 is all about the LB’s, just like the 4-3 is all about the DE’s. If you dont have 2 good OLB’s the 3-4 doesnt get presure on the QB. If you dont have 2 quality DE’s the 4-3 doesnt get presure on the QB. Now if we had actually fielded a true 3-4 defense & it didnt pan out Id agree sack the scheme, but we havent. Now if Wanny, Chan & cew decide the 4-3 is the way to go then get the players you need & go full time with the 4-3. Be the best 4-3 D we can be. Or if its the 3-4 then get the players you need & go full time with the 3-4. Be the best 3-4 D we can be. Master one scheme. Running a hybrid tries to get your guys to master multiple schemes which obviously hasnt worked.
Being in SoFL
I recall Wannstedt being roundly criticized for a good portion of his tenure in Miami. In fact, the vitriol heaped on Edwards was much the same for Wannstedt.
I think if you look at his “heydays”, he had some real talent with which to work. This is certainly not the same situation, today. Plus, as yo usay, he is a 4-3 guy born and bred.
Edwards had to go because the “D” is bad and he was the DC. But, while they can hide behind the “hybrid” tag, I think the Bills personnel situation is more indicative of the “plan” not being a plan at all. Are we a 3-4, a 4-3, a combination, or a mess. They flip flop more than a cook at IHOP and the head chef is Buddy Nix.
"a play in which nothing happens, that yet keeps audiences glued to their seats". -Vivian Mercier - a description of Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot"
According to Beckett, Godot was a metaphor for the Buffalo Bills :-)
by fansince60 on Jan 3, 2012 10:56 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
“I think the Bills personnel situation is more indicative of the "plan" not being a plan at all”
I think the ismore that there are only so many players you can add to a team in one year. Between a lack of high-end talent left over from the “brain trust years” and players aging out, the organization as a whole has created a personnel problem. The issue here isn’t and hasn’t been scheme (although the Tampa 2 was really annoying to watch), it’s been personnel.
"We have an elite pass rushing LB who likes to conserve electricity." -- Munchausen
3-4
We’ve been a 3-4 for 2 years and acquiring talent for that scheme. We need to stop flip flopping. Part of the reason this franchise has been in such disarray is it’s unwillingness to stick with something for a long period of time (cue the Dick Jauron comments).
I think the good teams are good because they acquire talent in their schemes over a period of 3, 4, 5, 6 + years. If we keep flip flopping between regimes or even in regimes then the talent is going to get tougher to find.
Even in this article Batten, Moats, Merriman, Troup, Edwards and Carrington are all out of position – that’s not how you build depth for the long haul. It’s the opposite.
I’d rather have Wannstedt run a 3-4 base or at least have Nix still scout for a 3-4 then run that for a decade.
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Jan 3, 2012 10:57 AM EST reply actions 6 recs
Agreed
Don’t want any of this hybrid stuff either. Pick a scheme and stick to it. They supposedly picked the 3-4 and started using draft picks on it. Stick to that and actually build it properly. Get those OLB’s that should have been a priority day one of this move.
There are too many players on this defense that play out of position and have no real role.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Jan 3, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Absolutely! Well said!!
If Nix allows a transition back, then maybe he isn’t the guy i though he was.. Seriously, we are not that far off today. If the Merriman experiment would have worked, we would not even be having this conversation!
Once we get a consistent pass rush, we will be so much better. In the first quarter of the Pats game we managed to get a consistent pressure on Brady and it showed big time. Our offense was clicking and voilà 21- zip As soon as they adjusted to our “fake” pressure – we were dead in the water. We need to stop having to disguise what we are doing and actually have a few superstar playmakers that offenses must game plan for. It will make everyone else that much better.
We need to stick with the 3-4 rebuild project and see it through to the end.
Rebuilding a team properly takes time and patience
I forgot to add that if Wannstedt is truly good, he can make it happen with a 3-4. I for one do not want to give up on Carrington, Edwards, Troup, Moats, Batten, Merriman, Sheppard & Heard.
Get the biggest missing piece, get a great Pass Rushing OLB. There are a bunch of great looking smaller sized DE’s that project well as Rush OLBs, guys that can be had all through the draft that look like good candidates like: Melvin Ingram, Cordero Law, Brett Roy & Shea McClellin to name a few
Rebuilding a team properly takes time and patience
This question would be a lot easier to answer
if Trorrel Troup would have provided some glimpse of “healthy game tape” he may have played some games healthy but with the injuries he has had to deal with and limited practicing, limited conditioning etc… it is hard to say. He was obviously drafted for the 3-4 front but hasn’t provided us with much to evaluate on. Two years ago our offense was a mess so our first action was to switch our defensive front and draft accordingly. I am not sure switching back right now is good or not. One thing I do know, is we still have minimal pass rush and difficulty against the run. We haven’t been able to display much improvement in two years addressing those needs and we are entering our third draft under Nix and one draft doesn’t seem like it will be enough………again.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
Understatment of the year, three days into 2012:
Especially for teams with lesser talent (like Buffalo), confusion is paramount for defensive success.
I’m in the camp that says fix this damned defense soon. Who cares what it looks like and who cares who gets ousted. If they’re not getting it done, they’re a wasted resource for the team. The time has come for the team to figure out how to field a solid defense able to adjust to most things thrown at them.
I really don’t think Merriman is a factor at all. He’s proven highly suspect with his health and he’s likely to be injured by week 5 next season. So sad. Too much trust in one’s past success by Nix when bringing Merriman on board.
"Go check on the ribs!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 3, 2012 11:14 AM EST reply actions
Everybody knew when we signed him that Merriman was a huge gamble. I don’t fault Nix for rolling the dice, and I think there would have been bigger criticism if we had passed him over on the waiver wire. I still think Merriman can be a key contributor, but not as an every down player any more. He needs to be more of a situational pass rusher if they want him to last the entire season.
by SiriusRed on Jan 3, 2012 11:44 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
It was worth a roll of the dice at the time, but he’s cooked and it’s time to move on. If it’s not one injury, it’s another. He’s officially Bob Sanders now.
Only when they have somebody better. For now, he’s still the best OLB they’ve got, but they can’t expect to get a full season out of him as an every down player. He will have to have a more limited role if they plan to keep him for next season.
by SiriusRed on Jan 3, 2012 12:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So the best LB they have is one who almost never sees the field? Chris Kelsay is their best LB, and he’s not even a true LB.
The team needs serious help.
"Go check on the ribs!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 3, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Not saying
We still don’t need help however…
by buffaloparks on Jan 3, 2012 12:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes, they do need help. I’m expecting them to draft an OLB within the first three rounds, possibly a second one later on. They need serious improvement at that position. Kelsay needs to stay at DE.
by SiriusRed on Jan 3, 2012 12:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
he has had a handful of well played meaningful games
he has shwoed up in just a few games in his career..he is average at best..Barnett and sheppard are both better…how in the heck do you think Kelsay is their best LB..he cant cover anything…best suited for DE and thats it..4-3 scheme player
Wannstadt said it will likely be a hybrid
If you read his remarks yesterday (they are on the Bills website) he basically said that the D will continue to be a hybrid. His comment was that that is the only way you can handle all the different offenses you have to face in today’s NFL. But the fact is that the Bills tended more to a 4-3 in 2011, and I would expect that to continue under Wannstadt. Brian’s rundown is excellent in terms of the players involved, and the bottom line I come away with is that the team as presently built is better suited to a 4-3, but can shift to a 3-4 when needed. Yes, we have to acquire another OLB or two to run an effective 4-3, but then again we need a couple of good pass-rushing OLB’s for an effective 3-4. Either way, we need to add OLB’s. The best bet would be to draft college DE’s who can play either DE or OLB depending on which scheme we are running within our hybrid.
by Macktruck on Jan 3, 2012 11:18 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
It's all about the LBs....
From the article our D-Line 3 or 4 scheme would not change personnel and we have the talent to fip flop 3 or 4 man fronts. The issue is with the LB core. I was not impressed with our LB core all year, Barnet was the best, and Sheppard showed some flash but not much else. I have no problem looking to replace LBs for either scheme since it is our biggest weakness.
How does the draft look this year, I hear there are a lot of pass rushers but are they 3-4 or 4-3 type players?
You can put me into the "whatever stops opposing offenses" camp
personally I don’t care what the alignment is, as long as we get better. If the best way for us to stop the O is to line up 8 guys on the line the so be it! Just as long as we stop the ball!
by CanadianBillsFan on Jan 3, 2012 11:23 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
I can't wait...
to see Buffalo unveil their new blitz-eight ‘Stampede’ formation!
"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep you mouth shut." – Ernest Hemingway
it seems like his d-coord history has been very successful
super bowl ring? a #1 ranked D and a couple other top ten Ds?
is it stupid to be cautiously optimistic? Our defense has good players. Is Wannstedt a good coach?
A ring at the expense of the Bills, too.
"Go check on the ribs!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Jan 3, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
everything is at the expense of the Bills
in one way or another.
by lord gloom on Jan 3, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Haha, so true!
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
3-4 or 4-3?
Wannstedt seems like one of those guys who can be great as a coordinator, but not so good as a head coach. I am very happy with this move.
Troup and Carrington were supposed to be the guys to immediately help us transition to the 3-4, but both have been mostly invisible so far (as has Dwan Edwards). I think that, in terms of current personnel, they are probably still closer to having the 4-3 be their stronger scheme. A front line with Kelsay, Dareus, Williams, along with a stud DE we could grab in the draft would be very strong, and we could dare teams to run up the middle on us. Merriman as a 4-3 DE pass rusher would be intriguing. While he wasn’t putting up the sack numbers this year, we lost any semblance of a pass rush once he was lost for the year. Moats should also be a situational pass rusher unless he can bulk up more and become an every-down player. He can’t seal the edge on running plays, but he does seem to have a knack for getting after the QB. I’m not sure how we would line up Barnett and Sheppard in a 4-3 — who stays inside, who moves outside?
We will have to wait and see which direction they want to take. I just hope we can stop pretending that Kelsay and Spencer Johnson are OLBs. They were embarrassing.
by SiriusRed on Jan 3, 2012 11:30 AM EST via mobile reply actions
to summarize my thoughts
We should build our scheme around our best front seven players. That would be Williams, Dareus, Barnett, and Sheppard. That leaves us flexibility for either scheme, but the thought of a 4-3 defense with Williams and Dareus up the middle would give us a defensive force that we haven’t seen since we had Pat Williams and Sam Adams.
by SiriusRed on Jan 3, 2012 11:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Looking at Wannestadt's defenses in Dallas and Miami...
I don’t think that he’ll force a scheme on players that don’t fit.
In Dallas, they played with undersized DTs and oversized DEs, and generated a pass rush from all four spots:
Sacks Name Pos Weight Ht
7.5 Jimmie Jones LDT 285 6-4
7.5 Danny Stubbs LDE 265 6-4
6.0 Tony Tolbert DE 268 6-6
4.5 Danny Noonan RDT 270 6-4
3.5 Jim Jeffcoat RDE 274 6-5
Then, in Miami, in 2001 (after a couple of years to shape the roster)
Sacks Name Pos Weight Ht
8.5 Jason Taylor RDE 255 6-6
6.5 Lorenzo Bromell DE 260 6-6
4.0 Daryl Gardener RDT 295 6-6
3.0 Tim Bowens LDT 325 6-4
2.0 Kenny Mixon LDE 271 6-4
The only obvious thing that sticks out is how tall the DL all are. This is a trend that probably began with Jimmy Johnson, but was present in all of Wanny’s recruiting classes at Pitt. The two NFL defenses that Wannestadt put together functioned differently, but both were characteristic for generating pressure with a 4-man rush, lots of line rotation, and tight, physical coverage. The Bills currently do neither of those things, but Aaron Williams was drafted to be a physical cover corner, there is decent depth at three of the four line spots, and a pass rushing RDE/JOLB is clearly the Bills biggest defensive need, so I could see a slow progression toward that type of defense. After doing a little research on this, one thing I now think is that DE Quintin Coples(6-6, 285) is probably much higher on the Bills draft board than I previously thought.
by Boogie on Jan 3, 2012 11:32 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
they were already heading that way
they got guys like kyle moore who is 6’6 272 and jarron gilber who is 6’5 283 lbs… infact, in those 2 guys they probably already have the depth set
by statcruncher on Jan 3, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Those guys are fringe players
That will have their chances to play their way onto the roster next year.
Saying depth is all set with them is like saying my retirement is all set because I opened an IRA account.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
Other players who are probably on the Bills draft board given Wanny's tendencies...
Zach Brown OLB NC – Undersized for a 3-4 LB, but could be a really special player at WLB or MLB in a fast, attacking 4-3 defense. High 1st rd pick.
Lavonte David OLB Neb – Same description as above, although he’s even smaller and probably can only play the weakside. 2nd rd
Don't forget
Back then those sizes were fairly large…
"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was important -- like a league game."
Dick Butkus
Hybrid with an emphasis on 3-4
If you look at the top 4 defenses in the NFL (Pittsburgh, Baltimore, San Fran and Houston) they all operate in a 3-4 defense. The Bills major problem has been injuries and combined with an additional pass rusher or two, the team’s “D” will play a lot stronger.
All 4 of those defenses play the "Elephant" 3-4
Meaning that they all have at least 1 elite pass rusher that teams have to focus on playing at DE/OLB. The Bills would have to find that player to run that style of D and I don’t see that happening cause too many other teams are looking for the same thing.
it looks to me
That if you go by personal, we are better of running a 43. Williams and Darius in the middle sounds hard to pass up. We have several options at de, and kelsay always plays much better when he is lined up there.
In the draft we can find another de, or a strong side olb.
"The Buffalo Bills have just exploded all over the Cincinnati Bangles"
-Steve Tasker-
by billsoferie on Jan 3, 2012 11:41 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Agreed
I think with the acquisition of a another pass rushing DE and another OLB. The Bills defense will shoot up statistically with Dareus and Williams in the middle of that line as a 4-3. Although Brian is not sold, I believe from watching film of Sheppard, he could be a dominant MLB. He certainly has much more athleticism and speed (more than Poz) to patrol the middle of the that defense with Barnett on the oustide. Add an outstanding DE in the draft and pick up a good OLB (or see if Scott can play it), the Bills are in business! I consider Carrington the only true nonfit.
Essentially been running a 5-2
personnel wise.
Hybrid will be the answer
"Will&Work2Win"coach Karma420
by Blood, sweat & Win on Jan 3, 2012 11:49 AM EST reply actions
Thoughts
I would be terrifically surprised if Buffalo has a successful campaign in 2012 and this whole regime is renewed going forward. in my opinion, the personnel on this team is a mess and a lot of it stems from the perceived miscommunication between Nix and the coaching staff when it comes to the defense. Considering that I believe 2012 is a make or break season for this coaching staff (and Nix as well in terms of being the top decision maker), I believe Buffalo needs to go with what’s the better scheme in the short term and I believe that’s the 4-3. They will need to add pass rushers and cornerbacks aggressively no matter what scheme they run, but given the presence of Kyle Williams and Marcell Dareus, I believe constructing a scheme based on these two players creating havoc in the middle of the trenches is Buffalo’s best bet at this point. One thing is clear: considering how tenuous the situation is in Buffalo at this point, I wouldn’t draft players who only fit one type of defense (think Troup or a guy like Nic Harris in Jauron’s last draft). The fact that this whole thing could easily be scrapped 12 months from now is the gorilla in the room that needs to be acknowledged.
"There's only one C.J. Spiller." -Buddy Nix
by Port Royal on Jan 3, 2012 11:52 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
What miscommunication? I think everyone agrees they were building a 3-4.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 3, 2012 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
right
Under Gailey the team has played significantly more 4-3 since the middle of 2010 and have hired and promoted Wannstedt, a coach who has been almost exclusively linked to the 4-3.
"There's only one C.J. Spiller." -Buddy Nix
Hidden benefit
to staying in a 30 front is that you have more LBs active on gameday than DLs. That puts faster, and more athletic people in helmets for special teams duty. Not AS much of a factor as it used to be (unless they junk the kickoff rule after a year), but still something coaches trouble themselves over.
by Brian in Shortsville on Jan 3, 2012 12:04 PM EST reply actions
The problem with our 30 alignments is that our current group of OLBs is just awful. Merriman can’t stay healthy. Kelsay and Johnson are defensive linemen who are clearly playing out of position. We are almost certain to draft an OLB in the draft (if not two) to help one of our weakest areas on defense.
by SiriusRed on Jan 3, 2012 12:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Our three best front seven players are Dareus, Williams, and Barnett, and they’re probably best suited to a 4-3. That’s what sells me. Sheppard is next, and he’s flexible. After that, it’s a bunch of role-players, prospects, and replacement level guys, none of whom are such 3-4 talents as to convince me that we should stick with that system.
If we’re so luck to have Coples drop to us, we can plug him in at RE, meaning that we can really over load the weakside of the offense with Barnett at the Will, Coples at RE, Dareus pushing in with Williams running a stunt, all with Sheppard cheating over from the inside. We’ve got enough talent to at least man the other side of the defense (Sam and LE) and neither is a crucial position for the 4-3. We can find some players there in late free agency.
That’s pretty much where I land. I can’t get past putting WIlliams and Darues together in the middle with Shepp and Barnett behind them. Gets me salivating.
by MattRichWarren on Jan 3, 2012 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
Either way
No matter to me as either way we are still short a LB (pass rusher?) or two and a CB. I will say this, whatever you think about our mustachio’d new DC, he has a track record of good D. Now Buddy needs to get him the horses to compete. Either way we are better off with DW than we were with GE, and either way we are still short some key positions. Let’s hope we draft some serious talent and can get this D headed in the right direction.
by buffaloparks on Jan 3, 2012 12:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I’m jumping on the “whatever stops opposing offenses” bandwagon. There are enough 40 front players on the team to go back to that, and enough guys in place to continue the transition to a 30 front. I think Brian outlined this well.
For me it comes down to having a DC comfortable with the D they are running. If Wannstadt wants to run the 4-3 I hope Nix lets him.
by NDbuffalo on Jan 3, 2012 12:33 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
What's Nix going to do?
Is Nix going to be adamant about the players he wants and how he wants them to play, or is he going to give Wannstadt some control? What’s Gailey’s role in this, will he be hands-off in the situation, what’s he looking for?
COUNTER TREND
Whichever way the league is going more towards (whether 4-3 or 3-4), do the EXACT OPPOSITE. It will be that much more difficult for teams to adjust to you, and there will be more good players available for your scheme, as they won’t be employed elsewhere. Think how hard it is to find dedicated 3-4 NT when half the league is looking for them. Even if there are weaknesses in your defense, you will end up with better overall players if you go counter-trend.
by Ground Zero Mosques on Jan 3, 2012 12:42 PM EST reply actions
The Bills 2011 Front Seven.......
For the most part looked slow, mechanical, and most importantly, soft and lackadaisical.
They seldom ran through walls for Nix, Gailey, Edwards or Wannstedt. This could be best seen during blitzes. Often pass rushers stopped rushing with the ball still in the QB’s hand.
They seldom blitzed fast (yes, you don’t have to be Bruce Smith to blitz fast) and the timing was clearly off.
Every NFL team has big, strong fast men that can be taught how to blitz. I am saying that the Bills should have been able to get pressure on opposing QBs within 2.5 seconds when we rush 5 or 6 at least 50% of the time. I would estimate our blitz success (good pressure) at about 25%. If you watch the Eagles or Steelers blitz you see commitment, precision, orchestration and speed that comes from knowing exactly what you are doing and the want to get it done.
Edwards seldom had his front seven playing that way, and because he was here all year, I doubt Wannstedt will either. I have seen Wannstedt’ teams and I am not impressed.
Sigh, Go Bills!
PodunkO - The great post ender!
25% sounds overly generous
There never seemed to be any creativity in the pass rush. There were never any stunts or twists. Everything was straight ahead, even the blitzers. This made it very easy for the opposing offense to pick up the blitz, and the QB would have plenty of time to find an open receiver. When a blitz fails to generate pressure, the DBs are sitting ducks.
by SiriusRed on Jan 3, 2012 1:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
According to Mark Gaughn, the Bills blitzed 20% of the time, which was pretty much the lowest percentage in the NFL the last two years.
That too......
Aggressive play calling helps players play aggressively and faster. I prefer attacking defenses. Screw giving up a big play. It is all about hitting people (QBs in particular, of course) forcing turnovers and most importantly, getting your players to play fast and loving it. And don’t forget, the smartest defenses play the fastest because they do not hesitate.
I am not asking for goon football, not one bit…..
Go Bills!
PodunkO - The great post ender!
I noticed.....
Slow, awkward stunts quit a bit. What really stood out was hesitation, conviction and effort.
PodunkO - The great post ender!
Dareus and Williams.....
Not only is Williams better suited to a 4-3, Dareus is too. What makes Dareus unique among NFL defensive linemen is his sudden, powerful and quick burst off the snap. The closer he is to the ball and the straighter his direction, the better he can take advantage of his gift.
He is a 4-3 tackle hands down.
3-4 fans don’t get upset as we played 4-3 most of the year.
Cause for concern……
The more Dareus is asked to stack and shed, or hold the line, the less we take advantage of what Dareus does best.
Solution?
Well, one obvious one would be to get a excellent stack and shed, hold the line tackle (like Troup only good) and rotate the three. I think you gain a lot this way. To be fresh and healthy in December is huge and limiting play can do this. And to convince the three to go all out each and every play as best they can would pay big dividends.
I would rotate them according to down and distance and also to limit too many plays for any one linemen.
My twoo cents…
Go bills!
PodunkO - The great post ender!
4-3 look.
Flo – Byrd – Wilson – Williams
Barnett – Sheppard – ??
Merriman? – Williams – Dareus – Kelsay?
With Carrington, Johnson and Troup rotating on the DL.
LB would be a major issue. But with all the passing in todays league. A true base 4-2 or 3-4 is rarely used. Nickel looks with 4 DL, 2 LB, 5 DB is better suited for todays NFL on most plays.
Come on Buffalo, please?
LB......
Is a major issue no matter how you slice it. We need pass rushers.
4-3 WOLB is Barnett’s best position historically.
And I feel sure Sheppard can play middle effectively and probably better. I think he is a better athlete than Brian does. I think he will play much faster when he feels 100% comfortable and confident. I Really like his combo of size, athleticism and toughness. He’ ll be a player if we don’ t screw him up. Of course, like all rookies, he’ll be a lot stronger next year as well.
We would need two pass rushing defensive ends who are not liabilities vs. the run. I think Kelsay would be (and is) a quality third DE in a 4-3. And if he played less he’d probably would get hurt less.
And we would need a strong-side OLB. Perhaps there is one on the roster? I think Batten has the height, weight and speed ratio of one….maybe?
Anyway, what we need the most in either defense is the two pass rushers and that are hard to find.
PS – I believe our CBs would play a lot better with a lot better front seven. And not just because of the pass-rush, down and distance, etc. Because they would be psyched! And other cool things like that.
PodunkO - The great post ender!
Here’s the problem, though: that look creates more holes.
’
ive been saying that for weeks. buddy spent 2 full offseasons going after 3-4 players. now they apparently will be switching. what exactly does he plan to do with these players hes been getting?
Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.
Brian, isn't this statement a bit of a stretch?
GM Buddy Nix has been adamant that he’s looking to acquire players for the 3-4 defense.
I remember having a discussion with another poster, J2 I believe, about this same issue. I went and looked through all of Buddy’s transcripts before Gailey was hired and nowhere did he say he wanted a 3-4 as the defense that his coaches would run until Gailey decided that’s what he wanted.
In fact, Gailey’s intro presser touched on how Gailey didn’t know what he was going to run as a D. To me, that precludes the notion that a scheme, and therefore players, was already decided.
Did I miss where he said he’d only, or prefer, to draft 3-4 players somewhere before Gailey was hired?
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
No, it’s not a stretch. Nix made it very clear at the scouting combine that he was specifically scouting for 3-4 talent.
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by Brian Galliford on Jan 3, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
But that was after Gailey had been hired and the scheme set. If the coaches decided to run a 4-3 would he have a problem drafting those players?
I’m not trying to nitpick, the timing is important in my view and I appreciate any insight you have.
If Nix wants his team to be a 3-4 then us running a 4-3 in the short term is not helpful and I guess that would leave me in the 3-4 camp. I would have a larger issue with Nix if he is trying to dictate what schemes his coaches should run, I don’t see how any coaches would want to sign up for that.
His stated preferences after Gailey is hired don’t mean as much to me since it was the coaches deciding what scheme to run. This would lead you to believe that he’d have no issue drafting 4-3 guys and thus making his desire for 3-4 players, well…moot.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
ya it was me and ya he said it
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Jan 3, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Lol, I recognize the avatar.
My whole question was when he talked about wanting 3-4 players, not if. I don’t like the idea of a GM dictating schemes to coaches. I remember that’s what we were discussing and no offense, but I still hope you were incorrect in him making those plans before he hired his coaches. If you are right then I don’t want him as our GM.
From everything I have seen and remember Nix only started talking about 3-4 players once Gailey and Edwards decided to run their 3-4 hybrid.
To me, that’s how it should be. Coaches decided schemes and GM’s and scouts the find players to fit said scheme, not the other way around.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
Hybrid
Offenses are going hybrid. Sometimes on the same play. I love watching the Saints and Packers, because they are the most hybrid. They’ll run horizontal timing on one side with the TE and a receiver, and vertical timing on the other side with two receivers.
Staying in one form of defense will soon go by the way side. Normal sets won’t contain offenses. Gregg Williams has the Saints in a hybrid. They even change gameplans from quarter to quarter. Baltimore runs a hybrid.
In ten years, the set style of defense will look a lot like a team that just runs west coast offense plays: outdated.
Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Jan 3, 2012 3:28 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Completely agree, there is no more 4-3 or 3-4.....
Almost every defense incldues both schemes. Some defenses use one more than the other and get put into that category. With the evolution of football, defense and offenses change to the rules, players, trends, etc. If a team is not built to be fluid and have the ability to adapt to a changing environment it is DEAD.
I want a defense that is not a 3-4 or a 4-3 but a coach who is able to adapt and change his defense to counter what the offense is doing.
rec'd......."you are either in front of the wave or behind it" - Buddy Nix
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Hybrid What?
4-3, 3-4, it all has to do with the talent available to the team. This much I know, Chix does well when they modify the obligations to meet the talent available. Truthfully, they don’t have a team that fills either role really well. Even if they draft well, they will still be a draft short of a full team in either direction they head. So it’ll be hybrid.
The offense is now two years into development, and they have come together, especially considering how many injuries we had. Defensively, the old guys can play, but it’ll be the new guys that need to play well for the entire defense to look good. So the real question is: will they need more than another year for the entire defense to jell into something everyone can play well?
Go big or go home.
3-4
Draft a couple talented OLBs this year and this defense will be good. We have good depth we just need some starters at OLB. 2 starting OLBs and a starting CB and this defense will be great. No need to switch. The coach can coach whatever scheme. I like the 3-4 more than the 4-3, it is more creative and gives you greater diversity in coverage schemes and blitzes.
You are now Watching The Throne.
I have my doubts
Wanny has a solid record of putting very good defensive products on the field, and as such I am somewhat excited by this move. We all knew it was coming when he was hired, so it doesn’t surprise me in the least. And as I’ve stated in a few other threads, I have no doubt that he’ll scheme a solid hybrid defense, despite his history with the 4-3. We don’t run a strict 3-4, and have had more success overall in my opinion out of 4-3 looks anyway. If we stop drafting for the 3-4, I’ll be a little disappointed as I think it’s a stronger defense against such a pass-happy league, but overall I don’t think the scheme matters as much as the players.
My doubt comes from the fact that he’s been on the staff for a year. Yes, the ILBs have noticeably improved (or maybe, that’s just Barnett and Shep being there now). However, I find it hard to believe that he’s had no impact whatsoever on the scheme development under Edwards. He was even calling some of the defensive plays at times. And yet, the defense wasn’t any better toward the end of the year, except when they went back to their early-season opportunistic selves for the Denver game.
I have my doubts that he’ll be able to field a much better defense than Edwards, considering he’s had his hands in the defense for a year now with nothing to show for it. Maybe he’s responsible for the improved run defense, maybe not. However, I’m not overly thrilled with this promotion, nor the fact that they didn’t interview anyone before the move was made. it’s time to wait and see….again…
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
3-4 vs 4-3
In my view, this is simple. The team’s 2 best linemen are DTs (Dareus & Williams) & both need to be on the field at the same time. Kelsay is useless in coverage but still effective as a pass rusher in spots. Merriman is a complete waste of money. Get rid of him, draft a pass rushing end & lose the 3-4. I don’t think it will affect the LBs because other than Barnett, they’re not very good anyway. A pass rushing DE is paramount though. It would fix a lot of problems.
Wannstedt is a terrible head coach but he’s a good D coordinator. Let him do his job with personnel that’s actually suited to the scheme he runs anyway. That’s probably not how it’ll go though because Nix comes from the A.J. Smith school of “I’m always right, even when I’m not.” Its hard to believe either one had anything to do with John Butler.
by KeithDotson on Jan 3, 2012 6:52 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Nix and the 3-4
I’ve seen a lot of guys on here posting that Nix has specifically said that he wants to draft 3-4 players. What I don’t understand about this is why is it not possible that he went and acted like any presidential candidate at just tell the public what they wanted to here just to get approval? When he and Chan came in the majority of the fans wanted the team to switch defenses. So he just said something that would get most of the fans population to agree side with him. The only problem is even though he has said that he is drafting for the 3-4, all of the guys that they have drafted fit into the 4-3.
Honestly, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if we moved to a 4-3 for one reason: the 3-4 is historically bad against TEs. The linebackers just aren’t usually athletic enough since they are usually bigger in a 3-4 scheme than you would see in a 4-3. This might be hard to believe because the Bills haven’t been able to cover any TEs for years, with no regard for scheme, but it’s true amongst other 3-4 teams as well.
Changing back to a 4-3 (which with the right personnel for that scheme might be better against TEs) would be an attempt to stop Hernandez and Gronk. NE is STILL the team to stop in our division. NY doesn’t really have any real offensive weapons (especially once they purge their team of warts like Plax and Holmes this offseason) and Miami only really features features talent at WR, and our corners are better suited to shutting down the type of receivers they have.
"We have an elite pass rushing LB who likes to conserve electricity." -- Munchausen
by crooked5 on Jan 3, 2012 8:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
In response to the question in the last paragraph of the article: I really don’t care one way or another. A hybrid is probably what will be most successful. At this point (with how many teams are trying to draft for a 3-4), it’s not necessarily easier to draft for a 3-4 like it might have been ten years ago. Really our deficiencies come down to a lack of ability on the field — draft great players and they will excel. It’s the placeholders that are only holding you down until someone else comes along that are dependent on scheme.
"We have an elite pass rushing LB who likes to conserve electricity." -- Munchausen
I don't know about this 3/4 Stuff
I think it can be real simple – we have Williams and Dareus lined up next to each other as DT’s and have Kelsay and a draft pick at the other end. I really like both those guys at tackle – and Kyle will generate a pass rush. One of those guys has to be double teamed. Who do you double? I like Barnett outside and Shep inside. This doesn’t sound too bad to me. I vote 4/3.
D-line decimated by injuries
Let’s face it, with our best d-lineman (K-wreck) out our defense stunk to high heaven. With his backup (Troup) nursing an ailing back, the middle of our defense was soft. Obviously we need Williams back. But just as important is getting Troup to strengthen his core so he carry his weight properly without his back doing all the work to keep his torso upright. If he can’t/won’t get in shape, dump him and move on. This is two years in a row, and not much to show for it. We have all seen that Dareus can have an impact, but surrounding him with lesser talent makes it easier to neutralize him. Successful teams are platooning players on the defensive line. Cincinnati has a great bunch of players and we should copy their methodology of stacking d-linemen.
"Being a Bills Fan is a Tough Job for Tough People…" – Luther6
mirror the Giants
How many D-linemen have the Giants drafted over the last 10 years .Having Stud DT and DE’s makes the linebackers and secondary look like all stars.
i vote for the one that works
i dont care how it looks, it wanny wants a particular one, hes the DC, so it should be the way he envisions it.
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To us winning is a tradition. We are victors and need not explain. You may hate us, but your girlfriends love us. - BC
One more than Shaq. - Kobe answering how it felt to win Championship number 5.
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