Bills should share Ozzie Newsome's pass rushing philosophy
http://www.baltimore...nto-next-season
"One of the issues brought up and discussed was what the Ravens need to do from a personnel stand-point to get over the "hump" and into the Super Bowl. When this question was raised, Ozzie Newsome had this to say:
"I think you have to start with the offensive line. We were able to get 'Big Mac' [Bryant McKinnie] in here late in August and get him to play. He played every snap on the offensive side of the ball, which is incredible. We are going to have to build on the offensive line. I think we will still build at the receiver spot. I think we'll work there. And, you don't ever have enough pass rushers. So, if that guy is there, we'll entertain that also."
I know the lack of a pass rush has been talked a lot this past season, but IMO, the pass rush should have been addressed years ago. With playing against one of the best QB's to every play the game (Brady) twice a season, the Bills should of had the exact philsophy as Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome ("And, you don't ever have enough pass rushers"). It has blown my mind that it has finally took this long for the lack of a pass rush to stick out like a sore thumb to Bills management/coaches.
Schobel was a good pass rusher, but the Bills needed more guys to compliment him. Kelsay is a very hard working player and will play any position the coaches will ask of him, but he's not even an average pass rusher. Jauron wanted Maybin and convinced the Bills FO to take him, because of his quick first step. IMO, Maybin only had 1 good year in college and was too small to play DE. IMO, the last good set of OLB's the Bills had were Angelo Crowell and Takeo Spikes.
IMO, I think Dareus & K. Williams have the potential to be the best DT tandem in the league. But, if the Bills want to beat the Patriots and win the division, then they need 2 DE's and two OLB's that can get consistent pressure on the QB.
Just another great fan opinion shared on the pages of BuffaloRumblings.com.
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They need to share every other team’s philosophy and make it a priority. In fact, they need to make it THE priority on the defensive side. Enough “building the interior”, that’s not what today’s game requires.
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
by Kurupt on Feb 3, 2012 12:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
In defense of Buddy
He inherited a horriblily undertalented Defense, which had Keith Ellison starting at linebacker. If they get someone new to fill the LDE role, and the SOLB role in the 4-3; which most fans assume they will, the only player they inherited on the front seven that is a starter would be Kyle Williams. So, although you can never have enough pass rushers, that is something you build upon once you have every other piece of the defense in place. After the front 7, they still need 1 or 2 more CB’s, then the Defense is ready to start stacking that pass rushing talent.
I was going to say when Chan started, weren’t we getting carved up by the running game. They needed to bring in some players to shore up the inside. Pass rushers weren’t going to help if the other team didn’t have to throw to win, they could walk it right up the middle of our defense. I think they have done well there, strengthening the inside, now it’s time to shore up the outside and put some pressure on the QB. I remember watching some games where the QBs threw a lot against us, wondering why they bothered since we were so soft against the run. I agree our pass rush has sucked since Schobel but they needed to lay a better foundation and I think they have.
Why I'm a optimistic Bills fan:
The road that is built in hope is more pleasant to the traveler than the road built in despair, even though they both lead to the same destination.
- Marion Zimmer Bradley
Pass rushers weren’t going to help if the other team didn’t have to throw to win
Then why do teams with bad run defenses win all the time? Teams still have to throw to win. Having a solid run D only marginally discourages opponents from the running the ball. Just like having a bad pass defense doesn’t lead to teams trying to throw every play.
The big factor in stopping a team from trying to run is scoring points. Even having a good pass defense is about as effective in limiting overall carries faced as having a good run defense is.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
I disagree...
the past couple years, our defense has been eaten alive to the tune of 150 yards per game and 5 yards per carry. Even if we scored points, teams could just run the ball right up the field and score the points back.
The Jets, for example, we lead in sacks by Aaron Maybin with 5.5! That is the same as Dareus. As a team, they had more sacks than us, but they have no elite pass rushers. Still, they stop the run and have an elite CB which together helps them win. Prior to last year, we could do none of the above.
This is one reason our game against Denver was so encouraging… we finally proved that we have the ability to stop the run. Now, if we can get a couple pass rushers or an elite CB, we’ll be set!
The Bills gave up 4.7 yards per carry the year before they promoted Nix and hired Gailey. They’ve given up 4.8 ypc in each of the last two seasons. Bills fans are learning how unimportant run D is without even realizing it because we gave up fewer yards last year and people don’t think it’s as much of a problem now, even though the run D was just as bad. What changed was the offense started scoring more points.
The Jets create pressure via scheme and have built a secondary that they can trust in man coverage intentionally because they believe in creating pressure via the blitz. It’s still a pass defense based scheme and it shows in the way that the Jets have had one of the top pass defenses 2 or 3 years in a row now. If the Bills played the pass like the Jets do, they’d have much more success against the run because teams wouldn’t be able to run as often.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
Then why do teams with bad run defenses win all the time?
Because they have great O’s which are light years ahead of ours ??
The Buffalo Bills - Drafting big and nasty men since 2011.
Exactly. The better your offense is, the better your run defense becomes. The better your run D is ….. the better your run D is? Improving certain areas of the game improve others, but a better run defense doesn’t improve any other area of the game other than marginally improving your pass D and marginally improving 3rd down stop rates. There’s a correlation between a good pass offense and a good pass defense and winning in this league. There really isn’t one between running and stopping the run because it’s less important.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
the only player they inherited on the front seven that is a starter would be Kyle Williams
and chris kelsay and jairus byrd and george wilson and drayton florence.
Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.
So, although you can never have enough pass rushers, that is something you build upon once you have every other piece of the defense in place.
But why? Doesn’t it make more sense to build a defense around pass rushers? It’s just so, so much more important to stop the pass in this league than it is to stop the run. Wouldn’t the more important thing be the priority if you were trying to effectively build a roster?
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
What pass rusher did you want them to pick
Last year instead of the guys they did pick? Just curious
That's a big question too
Some say why don’t they have a franchise QB yet, why not more game breaking WR’s, or world beating LT, pass rushers etc. Exactly when would we have drafted them? Who would you like to not have?
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory, then slowly fade away in the antiquities of time.
Three of the seven picks after Spiller were pass rushers. I called for this team to sign Jason Babin a couple years ago and to sign Antwaan Barnes last offseason. I wanted them to take Justin Houston in the 3rd round last year. There were opportunities. And it’s not just about the picks and FAs the Bills have acquired. It’s about drafting a one dimensional NT like Troup early. It’s about an organization that is concerned enough with run stopping that they play Spencer Johnson at OLB instead of letting an undersized guy threaten the edge. To me, it feels like the Bills have an organizational philosophy that values stopping the run and running the ball at least on par with passing and stopping the pass. And it’s the wrong philosophy.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
Not true.....
Everyone knew Schobel was going to retire if he couldn’t force a trade. He didn’t want to play in a 3-4. And they should have know Maybin wasn’t the type of pass rusher that could do what they wanted. CHIX completely misused Maybin, which is their fault not his. Troup was taken at least one round to early, as was Spiller.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
huh?
you are right about Schobel, but Maybin, that was totally on him.
CHIX completely misused Maybin, which is their fault not his.
Maybin not converting to a 3/4 OLB with us is totally on him. The coaches tried, but it was Maybins lack of effort and attitude that prevented it. Leading Chan to bench him, and eventually cutting him from the team. Nix has nothing to do with how a player is used on the team. Further evidence was when the Jets picked him up off waivers, then they cut him also. Allowed Maybin to sit out there and see no one was showing interest in him, then he was reaquired by the Jets.
Troup was taken at least one round to early, as was Spiller.
The draft ranker on Troup had him as a 2nd rounder not just being drafted there but also carried a 2nd round grade, and Spiller was ranked at #5 and fell to us.
Are we drafting Dino's now?
"6'6" monster receiver with a Terradactyl wingspan "....... Keysh67
by Billsfanstuckinthesouth on Feb 4, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
The Bills consistently praised Maybin’s effort and attitude. That effort was a problem is a myth created by Bills fans to attempt to help explain why he was a bust here. He was never put on the field because he couldn’t play the run to a satisfactory level, which I view as an organizational flaw. That’s why some of us believe he was never given a shot. Because the Bills cut him without trying to scheme around his flaws and then played Spencer Johnson at OLB despite a complete inability to do anything other than offer size at the position.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
by kaisertown on Feb 5, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, i disagree………
That effort was a problem is a myth created by Bills fans to attempt to help explain why he was a bust here
Based off stories that were on the internet.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/07/30/teammate-tells-aaron-maybin-to-earn-his-money/
Those are just 2 of many stories. To me, if players are blasting another player, you get benched by the coaches, there is a reason for it. Just because coaches didn’t come out in the media and say gee, this guys attitude and work ethic is bad, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t so. Action to me speak louder then words. No myth bro, speaking from experience.
Are we drafting Dino's now?
"6'6" monster receiver with a Terradactyl wingspan "....... Keysh67
by Billsfanstuckinthesouth on Feb 5, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
they thought they had 2 pass rushers in Schobel and Maybin
Schobel, who made his possibility of retirement clear way before the draft, and zero career sack Aaron Maybin stopped the Bills from taking a pass rusher, but Kyle Williams and Fred Jackson didn’t impact the selections of Spiller and Troup?
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
by kaisertown on Feb 5, 2012 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with both sides on this
But they needed to have a better run defense. Drafting Carrington and Troup was an effort to at least not allow 150 yards per game. I agree that pass rushers are more important, but they were just so terrible on run defense something had to be done right away. They did try to address a little bit, pass rushers with Moats and Batten, but not to much success.This is the year when pass rusher is addressed.
Also we don’t need an elite CB, if we have a couple good ones (i think we need 1 more good starter) we can still have a great defense. The pass rush makes the whole defense better.
With the 10th Pick in the 2012 NFL Draft the Buffalo Bills select Dont'a Hightower LB Alabama.
“TRY” and “ADDRESS” are two different things. All Boss Hogg did was bring in Merriman to improve the pass rush, that’s it. Merriman was a huge risk given his injury history, and look what happened this past year. Merriman was ineffective in the 5 games he played, then went on IR. The rest of the draft picks & FA’s were brought in to fix the run defense. I’ll give Boss Hogg credit, where credit is due, the 2011 draft class was the best draft the Bills have had in years, but the 2010 draft class still has me scratching my head. With all the holes on the team, Boss Hogg used his first round pick on a situational RB (Spiller). The Bills were not in the position to draft a luxury pick. Troup has been injured and most people feel like the Bills reached on him. I hope he can get healthy and produce at a high level, but so far, it hasn’t looked promising with him. IMO, Carrington has potential and I hope the switch to the 4-3 will help his game, but so far, he hasn’t done much.
With my focus on the lack of a pass rush over the past 10 years, it shows the average Bills fan could have done a better job at building a team, then a lot of these people who are/were in management and who were coaching for this team. Whitner over Ngata…give me a f@!kin’ break!!!
not only do we have Boss Hog, and Cooter…… we also have Roscoe P. (Parrish) Coletrane. And to think this is in Buffalo.
Are we drafting Dino's now?
"6'6" monster receiver with a Terradactyl wingspan "....... Keysh67
by Billsfanstuckinthesouth on Feb 3, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I Disagree
Chix knows football players. They think CJ Spiller is a franchise player and this guy just dropped into their lap. They pulled the trigger knowing it doesn’t matter what round a team drafts, it’s the quality of the players they get, when they can get them. Yes, it would be nice to get that QB-seeking missile. But they picked a guy who they could count on to be a difference maker. The franchise rusher was not there when they were picking. Dareus is the real deal as well. I love Monday morning QBing as well as the next guy. But I also recognize when it’s appropriate to watch and learn.
Go big or go home.
IMO, a running back can’t really be a franchise player. Which RBs are playing the role of franchise player and building block and leading their teams to big win totals and deep playoff runs? It’s just not a significant position anymore. When you can go out and find decent backs capable of averaging 4 yards a pop without expending resources, then those franchise guys who pick up another couple feet per carry just don’t make enough of a difference to draft one early. I wish Nix would watch the way the rest of the league has been winning football games and learn from that.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
You mean like the Jets Ravens Niners and Texans? Yeah, those teams don’t have running games propelling them to victory do they? The fascination with the passing game is there because it’s sensationalized. Thing about that people seem to forget though is that it takes an elite QB to win that way. And I guarantee you that if a Cam Newton was available instead of a CJ Spiller OR Marcel Dareus, Nix would have taken him. Problem was one WASN’T.
Sorry, I shouldn’t shout. Im just appalled at the lack of understanding toward the alternative options Nix was faced with when drafting. It’s as if we should have the D line of the Giants, the linebackers of the Ravens AND the passing game of the Packers in two years of building. Anything less and Nix has failed.
I just don’t get it.
by DJ O on Feb 3, 2012 11:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Totally agree DJO
It seems like some expect us to be elite after 2 years. They look at SF and try to compare us and them. This team had no talent when Nix got here (as GM) outside of what- 10 guys? including the P and K? That is terrible.
It takes time to grow a franchise through the draft. Year 3 is when most of the guys start to work well as a team. What this team really needs is another good draft (like in 11) and health.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory, then slowly fade away in the antiquities of time.
Yep. It’s all too premature to make the judgements some have come to IMO. A true rebuild – done thru the draft – requires patience and time. The reason why it does is because you don’t ‘reach’ with your picks. I know that term gets a lot of play, but it’s basic definition is to not select players simply because they fill a hole (e.g. Clausen/Gabbert) nor not take a player simply because you appear to have depth there (e.g. CJ/Dareus/A Williams).
You try to go BPA. I realize the Troup pick is one that everyone loves to point out that goes against this thinking. And it may have been. But when you consider the fact that A) our run defense was pathetic B) there would be no guarantee 2011 would land us a stud DT and C) DTs generally take a few years to develop – they all point to taking Troup was of sound mind AT THE TIME. Which is the only way to judge the pick.
Hindsight is 20/20. Mount Cody (who most clamored for) was not scheme adverse, meaning he couldn’t play 4-3 DT. Good thing we didn’t take him. Clausen (the other most wanted) was grossly overrated. HUGE props go out to Nix in by book for scouting this correctly. Nothing can set back your team more than having a controversy at that position, and getting it wrong. Gabbert last year was projected to us as well. It could have been easy for a weaker man to say ‘hey, I already invested a second in Troup last year, I need to justify that pick by not taking another DT that could raise suspicion that I failed with that selection. So rather than taking Dareus, I will just take Gabbert and everyone will think I’m a genius’.
This Nix didn’t do. Why? Because he is strong in his convictions and strong in his belief on how to build a team. With patience and with time.
Let’s see what the team looks like at the end of next year, shall we?
Hindsight is 20/20. Mount Cody (who most clamored for) was not scheme adverse, meaning he couldn’t play 4-3 DT
That’s just not true. Schematically, he’s essentially the exact same player as Troup. Troup didn’t even play pass downs in college. In Baltimore’s 46 defense, Cody practically plays the role of 4-3 DT already. Not that I would have wanted a one dimensional run stuffer like Cody anyways.
A true rebuild – done thru the draft – requires patience and time.
And the proper strategy, which the Bills unfortunately have not been employing.
I think BPA is the single most misunderstood football word thrown around. IMO, it’s extremely difficult for a running back to ever be the BPA with the 10th pick. The position simply is not important enough. Troup couldn’t have been the BPA in the 2nd round and was a reach because he’s a two down run stuffer whose impact will always be limited by the role he plays.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
I just don’t get it.
Clearly, because it has absolutely zero to do with how good the Bills are now. Like less than nothing to do with the Bills not being a playoff team already. It’s all about the strategy of the rebuild and a focus on the less important running the ball and stopping the run which has led to passing the ball and stopping the pass being behind the curve in terms of drafting players to rebuild this team. The Bills are only going to get better if they improve the pass game and pass defense.
You mean like the Jets Ravens Niners and Texans? Yeah, those teams don’t have running games propelling them to victory do they?
For starters, those were four of the five best teams in opposing QB rating this past year. They are the elite pass defenses of the NFL. Houston is the random exception to the last 5-10 years of football in which the only run heavy teams have poor QB play. Teams run the ball to minimize the importance of their own QB play. Not exactly the best strategy and it shows when you look at the teams that have actually won Super Bowls. Teams employ run heavy offenses out of necessity, not by design. Teams like the Falcons and Panthers very recently have moved away from run heavy offenses with improved QB play. Less recently, the Steelers and Giants ran a lot with young QBs and moved away from it. Even the Jets and Ravens have run less recently as they have tried to open up their offense and hope for growth from their young QBs.
Also, I said franchise running backs, not strong running games. The RBs on those teams are more replaceable than people think. It’s worth noting that none of the four teams you list have drafted a RB higher than late in the 2nd round in forever.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
Which RBs are playing the role of franchise player and building block and leading their teams to big win totals and deep playoff runs
AP before this year. Without AP demanding the constant 8 in the box defensive looks (and drawing the occasional 9 in the box set) Brett Favre wouldn’t have had nearly as good of production as he did in 2010. AP completely opens up the passing game for the Vikings — all this while running behind a mediocre O-line (Hutch and McKinnie have been mediocre for a few years now, Birk was decent when he left but not great and his replacement has been crap).
"Everyone who has conducted an expedition will know how ready the world is to do the great injustice of heaping the whole praise or blame for its success or failure on the shoulders of the leader alone."
-Polar Explorer Fridtjof Nansen
by NordicBillsfan on Feb 4, 2012 12:02 AM EST up reply actions
a running back can’t really be a franchise player.
I get your point, but don’t totally agree. A good running attack all but guarantees a good offense. Maybe not a deep playoff run, but a good offense. And, there have been times that a RB has been The Guy: Adrian Peterson, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Larry Czonka, Franco Harris. It helps a lot!
Historically, you could point to a lot of RBs, but the game has changed. Recently, you could maybe throw Peterson out there, but he’s also the best RB the league has seen in a long time. Then you look at all the other elite players currently at the position and most of them are actually on bad offenses.
"You mean @TWHITNER. It’s how he prefers to be referenced." - Jon Harrington
Whitner over Ngata…give me a f@!kin’ break!!!
An explanation of that pick might be that Ngata is a zero technique nose tackle, and we were running a 4-3 at the time which didn’t call for one of those.
two words....Pat Williams
He seemed to do just fine in a 4-3
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
yep, i agree. Just because a college player hasn’t played in a particular defense, doesn’t mean he can’t learn how to. That is the DL coaches responsibility to coach players up.
Are we drafting Dino's now?
"6'6" monster receiver with a Terradactyl wingspan "....... Keysh67
by Billsfanstuckinthesouth on Feb 5, 2012 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
I don't like the comparison
The Ravens are a super bowl caliber team. All they really need are pass rushers. If we had the interior defense they do, we’d be in better shape too. They have everything, good OL, good QB, good WR, good TE, good HB, great LB, very good DL, good DB’s. They have no real glaring weaknesses, so, they can afford to take gamble boom or bust picks. They can gamble to take only pass rushers in the draft.
A team like Buffalo has a lot of issues. They still need 5 starters. Lets not talk about depth. Different teams, different goals, different needs, different planes of existence. Give Buffalo 2 more years and they will be able to narrow down the draft to the same level as the Ravens, SF, NE etc do.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory, then slowly fade away in the antiquities of time.
I actually think that we compare quite well with Baltimore
I’d say we have better runninbacks, offensiveline, and even a better quarterback. Overall our offense seems to be better an if we can pick up one or two wide receivers an keep Stevie then we’d actually be a top 10 offense. On defense we still have a while to go but Byrd matches up pretty nice with reed and our Wilson is better than heir other safety. If we pick up one more surging cornerback then our defensive backfield as a whole would be better IMO. In the front seven Williams and Dareus are pretty much equal if not better than ngata and Cody and our combo of Kelsey and carrinton is debatably just as good as hat the ravens have. The only spot that they really beat us at is Lewis and Suggs so someone could saythat we are really one two elite players from being better than the Ravens.
by TheHesterEffect on Feb 4, 2012 12:26 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
So what you're saying is
If we had a few very good linebackers we’d have been in the Super Bowl? I’m sorry but your comparisons are ridiculous. I’ll take the Bills on offense but you’re comparing a bottom dwelling defense to a top 3 defense and saying we’re equal or better than them everywhere except linebacker? That’s optimism my friend.
by TCMiller30 on Feb 6, 2012 8:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions

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