Discussion: Is Stevie Johnson Worth A $9.4 Million Franchise Tag?
by Brian Galliford on Feb 7, 2012 12:00 PM EST
in Buffalo Bills Opinion
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PrintThe Buffalo Bills and the representation for impending free agent wide receiver Stevie Johnson still have more than a month to get a new contract in place before Johnson becomes an unrestricted free agent on March 13. They have less than two weeks, however, to make enough progress on the negotiation front to eliminate the franchise tag possibility on Buffalo's part.
February 20 marks the date when teams can begin franchise tagging their own players; teams do, however, have the option to wait until March 5 - a week before free agency - to do said tagging. That 15-day window will be a key point in time for this negotiation if no significant progress is made in the next two weeks.
If the Bills do use the franchise tag, the current projected base salary for franchised wide receivers is $9.4 million. Early indications are that he'd struggle to reach that mark on the open market in a deep year for free agent receivers, but that could obviously change quickly. That's also $2 million less than the figure was just a year ago, and nearly exactly the same as it was following the 2009 season. Our question for you, Bills fans, is this: if you were Buddy Nix, would you be comfortable tagging Johnson at that salary if a long-term accord can't be struck?
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I would be ok with it. That’s probably what we would need to pay a top free agent to replace him anyway.
by BillsofVA on Feb 7, 2012 12:05 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Elite talent at WR is not a necessity. NE got to the big game this year with 2 awesome TE’s and the best inside WR in the game in Welker. The elite WR wasn’t present. Just having very good in that position is all that is needed. Could get the same production out of someone else for a much cheaper price tag. I do think the Bills have let their talent go to higher bidders in the past, but Stevie just isn’t at that point talent-wise. He is just a good WR.
Andre' Got hosed yet again!!!!!!!!!!
How is Wes Welker not elite?
by BillsofVA on Feb 7, 2012 12:39 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 2 recs
With Brady he is. With Miami he wasn’t. I have to wonder how good he is in a different scheme with a lesser QB. But I agree he’s elite if only considering him a Patriot.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 7, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
just because the dolphins couldnt get him the ball is there own stupidity, thought the fins were insane to trade welker to the pats for a draft pick then draft Ted Ginn Jr, anyone that doubts Welker has never watched him play. if the pats add someone like Vincent Jackson i would be really afraid to play them next year
?
I found your comment confusing. NE has one of the top O-lines, arguably the greatest QB to ever play, like you said 2 awesome TE’s (who broke receiving records this year), and Wes Welker.
Before Stevie, the Bills struggled to get production out of their WR’s. I know Lee Evans was good, but he wasn’t that great without a threat on the other side from him. Simply put, Stevie is getting it done and we just paid our QB (Fitz) a ton of $$. Why on earth would Nix let his favorite target walk out the door? They should franchise him, even if it is just so they have the necessary time to get a long term deal done. LIke Nix has said, he is going to pay the players we have, and not give it to a FA.
Stevie isn’t part of the problem, he should be part of our long term solution.
and they lost, look what Brady did when he had TO, imagine how Great a season Brady could have had if he had an elite deep threat WR, TAG Stevie anyone that can consistantly make plays against Revis can atleast be traded for a second round pick b4 the draft,
I agree!
The Ravens have no elite WR and neither do the 49ers!
by BuffaloWhiner on Feb 8, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
gamebreakers
$10 million dollars is for gamebreakers only…..S.J. is not a gamebreaker….Calvin Johnson is! !!!!
by rexachss on Feb 7, 2012 12:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
not sure i agree with that
Who cares the money… lets just retain him. Its not our money… we’re fans… not GMs… I am a sj13 fan, lets keep a player for once huh
I'm waitin'..... @killascript on twitter
this
Change is inevitable; progress is optional. - Buffalo Bills Mantra
by silverstreak3k on Feb 7, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
yes
I dont know why people here are so hung up on money. We have never been close to the cap. Franchise Tag assures one more season with a proven play maker… I dont see the issue.
Of course resigning him is the way to go.
Shun the non Billievers!
yea back to back 1k seasons isn’t a game changer at the WR position. I bet someone else would love him…lets just let him go!!
by csc06258 on Feb 7, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
IMO the patriots would sign him just for the way he is able to beat Revis,
by forlife on Feb 7, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he is great, and a good team will probably get him and make me sick for the next 5 years…im so tired of the same circle
by csc06258 on Feb 7, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Megatron makes like 12 million a year stevie only wants about 7 million, for a guy that can beat Revis that is a great price, so give him a 7 year $50 million, contract 25 million guaranteed, $25 million in year 1, 15 million in year 2, and 2 million a year for the remaining 5 years and then sign 1 of the jacksons
so you'd pay him $40mm in just 2 years
what motivation does he have left to work for the next 5 years?
No. It’s all or nothing for me, especially since his agent floated $7.5M/yr as the average salary he’s looking for.
Chris Brown said the Bills feel the same way.
Below i said 8 is fair
He is worth 7.5 and with that you can still get a guy like Williams or Bowe.
"The Buffalo Bills have just exploded all over the Cincinnati Bangles"
-Steve Tasker-
7.5
With Stevie asking for 7.5M/yr, I do not see why the deal is not yet done.
How can the Bills think that 7.5 is to much for a guy like Stevie?
They gave Lindell and Fitz very competitive contracts. Stevie’s numbers could justify a higher salary.
What could be holding this contract up?
Chris Brown said that if that’s what he was really asking for the Bills would have signed him already.
GET TO THE CHOPPA!!!
I am not sure I trust chris brown here. He is a bills employee and he tends to have a biased veiw of things imo. I do not trust the agent I do not trust brown and I do not trust nix. All I know is stevie seems to want to be back and obd does not seem to want him back.
"This is a chance to shine some light on the city, They say it’s too cold. I’m going to bring some warmth to it." Marcell Dareus
by matthew62 on Feb 7, 2012 1:30 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Chris is usually very straight forward. If I had to put stock in either what Chris Brown is saying or Stevie’s agent I am taking Chris every time. I understand what you’re saying, but I think Stevie will hit free agency and try to get the best deal he can. If that happens to be 7 or 8 million he will be back in Buffalo. If it is more, goodbye SJ13.
GET TO THE CHOPPA!!!
Yes....
I believe Steve Johnson would be already signed if he would have agreed to 7.5….
PodunkO - The great post ender!
7.5 part II
Chris Brown said that if that’s what he was really asking for the Bills would have signed him already.
This is exactly what bothers me about the SJ contract situation.
Why would an agent put out a number that is less than he really wants? It severely weakens his negotiation position.
I guess he could be asking for to much guaranteed money or a short term deal. A 2-year/15 mil deal would not be in the best interests of the Bills.
by rat on Feb 7, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Why would an agent put out a number that is less than he really wants? It severely weakens his negotiation position.
Fan sentiment.
by MattRichWarren on Feb 7, 2012 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
because the Bills FO makes contract decisions based on fan sentiment?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Because that's not what he's really asking.
Never trust an agent who negotiates through the media.
Limited time only! Save 5% with code: XGWUI
by twoeightnine on Feb 7, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Because there is much more to a contract than a per year average.
Too many fans get hung up on the average.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
I'd say most of it right now.
Length, milestone payements (in the form of “option” or roster bonuses), guaranteed amounts and incentives
The guaranteed amount runs hand in hand with the first 3 years salary which is what all agents are trying to maximize now. Players are no longer fooled by 7 year deals, they know they won’t see the end of it.
The new"ish" 30% rule also adds a new wrinkle to contracts since there can’t be a large disparity in actual salary as there could in years past. You are only allowed an increase of 30% in actual salary from year to year so no more salary doubling from one year to the next.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
If I was Buddy Nix, I wouldn't
Personally, I myself wouldn’t have an issue signing the franchise tag to keep Stevie around and show him what value he has. But I think if Nix is having this much trouble negotiating with Stevie’s agent about a 7.5 million dollar annual contract, why would he consider Stevie to be valuable enough to spend $9.4 million for one year?
I feel that Stevie either gets signed or he’s gone.
"Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin." - stetzwebs
No
Because he will sign for less
Give Steve 8 million and then go get Williams.
By drafting williams, we can take BPA or a guy like Floyd at 10
"The Buffalo Bills have just exploded all over the Cincinnati Bangles"
-Steve Tasker-
Of course
Let’s put it this way: Johnson would be very unhappy if the team tagged him. The franchise tag favors the club, not the player. Very few one year contracts are bad investments. Overpaying Johnson’s annual value by 1.5 million or so (my arbitrary value I’m assigning him) is more than offset by the lack of signing bonus and lack of committment involved. If Buffalo fails to utilize the tag and finally fails to re-sign Johnson, it can only be construed one way: they are a doormat organziation of beancounters and winning is not a priority.
"There's only one C.J. Spiller." -Buddy Nix
by Port Royal on Feb 7, 2012 12:13 PM EST reply actions 8 recs
I agree with this 100%. Stevie is looking for a long term contract because the franchise tag benefits the club. If they can’t re-sign him, then I’d be upset if they didn’t use the franchise tag and just let him walk.
"First souls collected" - Abayarde, 9/11/11
by MJuice23 on Feb 7, 2012 12:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
A hypothetical...
If Johnson leaves to another team but the team brings in another WR of his caliber and drafts another one high, would you still have the same opinion?
Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.
Citi Field loves the mets so much it smothers them. -the caveman
I would be even more upset. Then they’d be tied to drafting a player out of need, and that might not work out. They can’t continue drafting and developing players only to let them leave because they want to be paid like the league standard. They can’t continue spinning their wheels of having to restock the cupboard because they tossed out the food too soon.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
But in my scenario, they’re also bringing in an FA similar to Johnson. I like Stevie, but I can’t really say that I’d be heartbroken so long as we’re not losing production and getting some fresh (talented) blood in the WR corps as well.
Official ledge-talker-offer of the Buffalo Bills.
Citi Field loves the mets so much it smothers them. -the caveman
get a deal done....ralph cannot take the cash with him
geez…..
what are these guys thinking already?
all i know is i am going to be a season ticket holder this
coming yr and i want to see fitz throwing to stevie, nelson,
chandler, easley, freddie and cj…..
should be enough weapons to do some damage…..
but wrap him up, 8 million/yr over 5 yrs, 20 million guaranteed
done deal…….
by simonpure on Feb 7, 2012 12:13 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
If Lee Evans got paid almost 10 million a year I believe, Then Stevie should get at least that
by csc06258 on Feb 7, 2012 12:14 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
not even close.
6 yr(s) / $6,348,750
2004: 320,000
2005: 311,250
2006: 542,500
2007: 773,750
2008: 2,250,000
2009: 4,600,000
then signed the extension in 2010- where he did make the ten… for just one year, and then we traded him after he got a million dollar bonus this year so he cost 11.7, but really only for one year. that would be more like we franchise steve, then sign him long term. Regardless, he will make WAY more money than Lee ever did.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
from what I remember, he signed a deal that was 4 years roughly 40million….40/4 =10 mil a year by my math. I know he probably didn’t get it all based on the trade and what not, but they still inked him for that contract. Now Baltimore is paying him that much? I realize that these contracts never really pay out to what they say, but they still say what they say if that makes sense….Like will Fitz ever see all 60 mil? probably not, so if we give Stevie a 4 year 40 mil contract I wouldn’t call that crazy, especially if we did that for Evans. My point was he deserves more than Evans got, and it was a contract worth 40 million when he signed
you are correct CSC, at the time it made him the highest paid receiver until Fitzgerald and a couple of others signed there extensions. It was crazy money for an average receiver.
Are we drafting Dino's now?
"6'6" monster receiver with a Terradactyl wingspan "....... Keysh67
by Billsfanstuckinthesouth on Feb 8, 2012 7:37 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, he was very close. Lee signed a 4yr $37.25mil extension in Oct 2008
Almost half of that (18.25mil) was guaranteed, $27mil of which was to be earned in first 3 years of the deal.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/lee-evans/
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/26/lee-evans
from this article:
Evans was the Bills’ highest-paid player, earning an average of $8.2 million a year on a contract extension he signed in March 2009. His departure saves some money, not a ton. The Bills already paid him a $1 million bonus when training camp began under the terms of his deal. He was due to make $3.27 million in base pay this year. It’s a logical assumption the Bills would have parted ways with him at the end of this year, before the final year of his contract.
so really, the way it looks, is he was never making 10 a year, by any capacity. At least not according to any posts that I have seen, and contradictory to all three of these. The fact that he got paid around 8 for a single year, doesn’t mean he made 10 a year for 4 years.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
From our own very wonderful site...Oct 2nd 2008
http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2008/10/2/627066/bills-evans-agree-to-long
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
still isn't ten
and still isn’t in salary. i guess you can go entirely by one source (shefter) about something that the Bills don’t report. I found three disputing. So, regardless- moral is Sign Steve, he has been more productive than Lee, and he deserves at very least similar money, so we should be comfortable anywhere up to and including 10 mil a year. so, it isn’t that i disagree about Steve, I disagree that we paid 40 mil, when he signed an extension contract 3 years ago, and spent last year on the Raven’s team.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
I think it would be worth it
I would try to work out a long-term deal around the $7.5m he’s asking for right now. However, if the agent stonewalls, I would be willing to put the franchise tag on him and work out the long-term deal during the season. I wouldn’t want to pay him that much every year, but it would be okay to stop him from bolting via free agency.
by SiriusRed on Feb 7, 2012 12:15 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
one time deal
Keep him at whatever the cost this year.
Please base your arguments in provable facts instead of pulling stuff out of your rear. -CanadianBillsFan- This is why talk is cheap because the supply always exceeds the demand.
if it allows you to keep him and work out a long term deal then yes its worth it. The nfl is a 11th hour orginaztion. We only have to go back to the last off season to realize that. Stevies will get a deal it will get worked out but its not gonna be done till the day before he would hit the open market.
"This is a chance to shine some light on the city, They say it’s too cold. I’m going to bring some warmth to it." Marcell Dareus
Dammed if you do dammed if you don't!!
Myself I’m sick of losing talented players to other teams but there are so many questions concerning Stevie: is he still improving, has he leveled off and is he the weapon we all hope he is? Tough tough decision to make… My advice get to the table, give him a excellent signing bonus ~~~5 years @ $42 million should get it done.
.
Football is like life - it requires perseverance, self-denial, hard work, sacrifice, dedication and respect for authority.
Vince Lombardi
If its really gonna take that much...
…then why not take the best WR available in the draft? He would be far less expensive and would posess 1st round skills. Stevie is good, but not even close to elite, so why should the Bills be forced to pay him like an elite WR?
He says the TD celebrations and penalties are behind him, but does anyone really believe that? He is a showboat and relishes his T.O. /OchoCinco moments. His famous huge pass drops are stuff tv commercials are made from. I really don’t think he will help the team way more than he will hurt it. Not worth the millions.
Andre' Got hosed yet again!!!!!!!!!!
then why not take the best WR available in the draft? He would be far less expensive and would posess 1st round skills. Stevie is good, but not even close to elite, so why should the Bills be forced to pay him like an elite WR?
Because we cant keep creating holes for this franchise. Sure that would be nice in theory. But we could get ANOTHER need with our 1st pick. Letting good players go, in hopes of drafting their replacement, at a cheaper rate, is what has kept this franchise in neutral for the past decade+.
We need to keep talent AND draft good player. Not replace them with good players.
Lets Go Buff a lo!
by bflo on Feb 7, 2012 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
I guess my point is that I believe Stevie has probably reached his full potential and if we got a 1st round WR he has a much higher ceiling. Shouldn’t be paid like Jerry Rice talent if he is only Sidney Rice talent.
Andre' Got hosed yet again!!!!!!!!!!
Don’t forget that Detroit had to go through Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, and Mike Williams before they hit on Calvin Johnson. Just because you get a WR in the 1st round doesn’t mean he’s Jerry Rice.
by Krenn on Feb 7, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I get your point.
But this team is a few high talent level players away from contending. We cant throw away talented players to replace potential high level talent, to save some cash. We need to add to this team, not replace.
Above everything, this team lacks talent, real, high level talent. We need as much as possible.
Lets Go Buff a lo!
I just don’t get why you think he is Sidney Rice talent, when he consistantely beats Revis? I guess I don’t get why he is not elite, if he always beats the best corner in the game and puts up back to back 1k season. This season was with a pulled groin all year, I think he DIDN"T reach his full potential because of that
holy moly
do I wholeheartedly agree with this. IF we knew how to manipulate the draft to get good value and move around, I would be somewhat in favor of not overpaying players, but when you don’t do those things, you have to keep the core talent you have and build around them. a franchise is nothing without a foundation of solid/spectacular players. No one wins in this league by continuing to recycle their roster every year and letting talent walk!
sign him
primarily to continue to grow w/Fitz. Production bonuses/incentives galore.
cant see buddy using the tag on him.
"Will&Work2Win"coach Karma420
by Blood, sweat & Win on Feb 7, 2012 12:31 PM EST reply actions
Yes.
If a deal can’t get done otherwise, then tag him. We cannot lose him. He’s a back to back 1000 Yard receiver. Even if the tag salary of $9.4 mil is too much for Stevie, it buys us another year to extend him. If they tag him, they should be working with him the very next day on a longer term extension.
"The Amish Rifle is your god now." - Muzza34
by BuffaloOwdaTwnr on Feb 7, 2012 12:31 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I think this is exactly what I would do. If they can’t get a long-term deal done this year, they will need another year for their team to somehow replace him. If they have to replace him this year as well as deal with all their other holes, it’s too much (just as it always has been when they let talent walk).
I don’t think Nix would tag him, though.
Is Stevie a talent like Calvin Johnson? No. But why they’re intent (if they are) on pushing him out the door is a bit beyond me.
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
Has Buddy used the Franchise Tag yet in Buffalo?
I cant remember the last place to be “tagged” here.
Lets Go Buff a lo!
No, Buddy Nix hasn’t used the franchise tag yet. Name someone that has deserved it since he has been here?
Are we drafting Dino's now?
"6'6" monster receiver with a Terradactyl wingspan "....... Keysh67
by Billsfanstuckinthesouth on Feb 8, 2012 7:39 AM EST up reply actions
NO
1. We aren’t building a team for next year, we’re building for the next five years.
2. The franchise has considerably more leverage this year than next, primarily in the form of a strong free-agent class.
3. Antics aside, Stevie is a young, talented WR that the team drafted in the 7th round. As far as guys you want to watch in a Bills uniform on Sundays, SJ has got to be at the top of the list.
He should get a long term deal or none at all. He’s not irreplaceable but I would really like to see him continue to be a part of this nucleus that Buddy has been building… and he is obviously Fitzy’s go-to guy.
Buddy – do what it takes to sign Stevie long-term (and soonish) and then go get us someone to stretch the field!
A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 7, 2012 12:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Bingo, same analogy I was thinking.
I’m not a fan of the 9.5mil cap hit since we don’t have a ton of room to work with this year, but Stevie is our #1 priority for FA this year so do what you have to.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
agree
just pay the man. accept that premier players, who you have invested time and effort into, command legitimate contracts. Building with young guys over and over, and taking on aged/declining FAs is no way to make a roster. Ask the Redskins. At some point, you have to pay your actual players, you know- the way that Nix said he was planning when he took the job over.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
Sign him
If franchise is the only option then you have to do it.
I’m still confident a contract gets done. If it is true they want to be in the $7.5 mil range I think that is fair. And you didn’t sign Fitz to his deal to let his best weapon walk.
You gotta do what you gotta do – have to keep the man. Gotta spend money to make money, Stevie is young and I can’t even imagine how good he would be if there was a beast #1, or #2 WR on the other side. Keep the man anyway possible or go back into the downward spiral that we’ve all seen for far too long.
You know how many busts we have drafted? Do we really want to choose a first round WR and put all the pressure on him to replace our #1 WR. We have seen Stevie in action, he is a proven WR in the NFL. I’d rather have him then putting all our eggs in one basket in some over-hyped guy who may or may not be good in the NFL. Seeing is believing.
Absolutely
But we need to give him the contract he deserves, a long term deal.
by RiddickBillsFan on Feb 7, 2012 12:54 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The only thing negative against Stevie
Is he isn’t what Nix is looking for as an upgrade to the offense. A Wide Receiver that is open when he is covered. He is everything else. I have now clue if he is worth 9.4 million or 7.5 million, but I do know we have money to spend this year to get to the salary cap floor or ceiling and if we need to use Stevie to make that happen then I would say it is worth it.
YOU ARE OUT of you kuku fufu mine craker laker Flaber baber FUNKI chunki brain. WE want to winn every year -- abayarde
How does the tag work against the cap?
Is that whole 9 Million a hit on this years cap?
Would they have enough to still sign Stevie, make a move on a big name FA (like Super Mario or Vjax) sign Chandler, Urbik, and what other Free Agents they need to keep?
What is the cap space? Who are the main FA’s needed to be kept other than Stevie? What will the cost?
I dont think there is enough info in the article to make a good educatued decision; but i bet if we put all the answers to these questions in front of us it will be clearer to most if we will/wont sign Stevie.
The cap hit here isn’t a big deal. With his contract, it would take the average salary (reports are he wants 7.5 million) but then add to that the signing bonus divided by years of contract. I really don’t think the difference between the two cap hits would be all that much. If anything, I think the long term deal will have a greater cap hit.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Feb 7, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
No, this is very important
I read somewhere the Bills are doing “spend to cap” (not sure about the term here) which means that the signing bonus isnt broken up amongst the years of the contract, but is paid up front and considered a hit the first year of the contract. So that makes this very important. Do they have enough to sign these guys and give then their bonuses same year? If they Franchise him, then technically they are saving money by not having to pay the 7 million plus his whole years bonus. So mathematically it would actually save the team money, and allow them to sign some bigger name FA’s.
I found this
If anyone wants to look. Kind of interesting…i mean this whole discussion is revolving around them paying $9million to keep stevie, when they are paying Maybin $5million this year to play for the Jets. LOL.
Yes, but you asked about “cap space”. They have plenty. If you are talking “cash to the cap” that is an entirely different story.
Thank you thank you thank you thank you sireric for bringing the furious punching cat back into my life. - poz
by bluecollarbuffalo on Feb 7, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
Buffalo has approx 20mil in cap space for 2012. The cap figure hasn't been determined yet, so that's an estimate.
If tagged then the entire amount counts against the cap.
Buffalo usually doesn’t do large signing bonuses due to their cash to cap policy. They usually spread the guaranteed money into 2-3 payments via roster/signing bonuses.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
A better question might be...
Is he worth $9.4M to the Buffalo Bills?
To which I answer an unequivocal YES!!!!!!
Throw out 31 other teams, and it’s no, maybe, sure, absolutely not, etc. Yet when it comes to the Bills, IMO, he is worth every penny. Granted, if they can sign him long term for less, I’d be very happy.
"WE’RE SUPER FREAKY" – STEVIE J
The Bills are like your parents. You can’t choose them, and no matter how much they disappoint you, and no matter how much you want to hate them, you simply love them. - BuffaloOwdaTwnr
yes
hes worth it. hes worth his 7.5 mil a year even more. i dont see how its an all or nothing type deal. the bills should certainly give the 7.5, but if that number has changed, then the 9 should be used to keep him one more year and possibly negotiate further for that year.
Change is inevitable; progress is optional. - Buffalo Bills Mantra
TAG HIM
I prefer they tag him over give him anything more than 7 per year. Players in their contract year usually have great seasons. It will give us one more year to see how good he really is and if he has matured and learned from his celbration mistakes. The worst scenario is they give him a Lee Evans style contract that he grossly underperformes. Rather see him overpaid for one year by 2 million than grossly overpaid for 5.
an alternative to the Franchise tag.
Why not use the seldom used Transition tag. It does not “gurantee” that johnson will be back in a Bills uniform, but it does have some advantages:
1. Using the 2009 salary numbers that the Franchise tag dropped back to…the transition tage for a WR would be $8,393,000.. Saving the Bills a million bucks
2. Buddy would still have the right to match any offer sheet. If a team chooses to spend a ridiculous amount of money, Buddy can walk away with a clear conscience. But if another team makes a reasonable offer, Buddy can match and take that deal.
Some disadvantages:
1. No compensation if we dont match the offer sheet
2. If Stevie signs a long term deal ,we could not use the transition tag again until his contract is up.
letting him walk in free agency would be a disaster in the eyes of the fanbase.
letting him hit the market in the hopes that no other teams offer him the kind of money he wants is a huge risk
taking that kind of cap hit with the franchise tag would make things a lot tougher for buddy in terms of getting other important deals done (free agents, urbik, rinehart, bell, chandler, fred jackson).
this is a pretty sticky situation for buddy nix.
Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.
It is a sticky situation......
I think we can throw out the all stevie wanted was 7.5 mill crap though, can’t we?
I think if they end up paying him what he was asking they already made a huge mistake and they probably don’t care. We would be in much better shape now if Stevie was signed last year and his bonus counted towards last years’ salary cap…… Way better shape.
Does anyone know how much cap space we left on the table last year?
Brian?
And this is one of the main things the Bills do to remain in the basement…..
PodunkO - The great post ender!
Why do people think Stevie is immature?
He celebrates in endzone? Wouldn’t you celebrate if you just scored a TD against a bitter rival? He knew he was going to get penalized and he is penalizing his team. You know what is penalizing the team? Having a team with no personality, thus preventing any media coverage whatsoever for the team. (*cough cough ESPN or any other media outlet outside of Western NY) (HELLO TV DEALS and TICKETS SALES JERSEY SALES???)(Do a Youtube search on Steve Smith endzone celebrations. Do you think Steve Smith is going anywhere or anyone saying he is immature? Finally, Do you think a guy that just gave away tickets to deserving local highschool students to join him at the super bowl an immature person? Hell I go as far as to say he is an mature athelete that knows he role model and a lot of professional atheletes should follow his example. PLEASE enough with the maturity issues. TD CELEBRATIONS ARE NOT A BIG DEAL. I agree with Boomsauce, letting him walk would be a disaster in the eyes of the fans. Resign Stevie! Lets not pull a Jason Peters again. Invest time and money just to let him do well somewhere else.
by dubyaeff on Feb 7, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Family guy, model citizen, locker room guy, team player.
Hmmmmm, I definitely question Steve’s maturity.
Not!
Bunch of garbage talk.
Sign him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"My new cat just farted on my lap. Smells like Bills football." BG.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Feb 7, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
Get the deal done!
If Buddy/Whaley can’t get a deal signed, then you have to franchise him. He is such a unique route runner and talented receiver. It gets a bit tricky, though. He has openly said he wants to be back in Buffalo. However, he has also stated (on Jim Rome friday) that he has all intentions of testing the market. He wants to see what his value is before agreeing to anything with Buffalo.
The good news is that I believe he is more valuable to the Bills than to other teams due to his unique running style and skill-set. Perhaps this is a bit off-base, but I think he will be sobered by the offers he will get around the league and come back to Buffalo gladly for $7.5 mil. Perhaps other teams will look at his draft status, on field antics and drops more negatively than we do. Thoughts?
I agree with comments above, though, that I am getting tired of being the farm team to the NFL for talent.
WTF?!
sign him already, if its cheaper to franchise him than do it! Do you all remember the statement by Buddy last year about not making a big splash in free agency, we never have we never will thats not our style. We draft them and develope them. So if this is true then they will do which ever is cheaper for them, my quess is franchise tag. And you guys talking cap hit must have forgotten we sat all season atleast 20 mill UNDER the cap, plenty of room to franchise a game changer like stevie.
Yes we have!
We just sign the wrong guys. The two O-line guys we signed about four (four) years ago come to mind…..
But you are right, the fans and the press should have watched our salary cap numbers last year and every year….
And if the Bills can’t find players to give money to at the end of the year (to help with next years cap) that are healthy enough and good enough and committed enough to trust them (with a bonus or new contract) then shame on them for that too.
Spending your money wisely and spending it to compete are what winning in the NFL is all about.
PodunkO - The great post ender!
It would actually be more expensive to franchise him.
by MattRichWarren on Feb 7, 2012 8:37 PM EST up reply actions
Yes!!
We are way undercap. Money shouldnt be a big issue. We need players. He can play. We need to beat the Jets, he can beat Revis.
Sign him, long term preferably, but lets not lose another great player. Let’s not play it safe or cheap.
Shun the non Billievers!
by Superduff on Feb 7, 2012 2:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
No....
I mean last year’s cap.
There is a huge difference. If we signed him during the season we could have given him…..say…..
15 million in bonus money that would all count towards last year’s cap.
And now, we would be in excellent shape to sign another star receiver and a big- time end BEFORE the draft. Then we could get the other DE, the SOLB and a real challenger for the left tackle spot and then fill out the roster in the draft. And that is how you get good.
It is hard to improve in the NFL leaving 20 million dollars of cap space on the table.
PodunkO - The great post ender!
We are way undercap.
not really. the bills are something like 15 mil under. a little more than 5 needs to be used on the rookie class, and the bills have several contracts (urbik, rinehart, bell, chandler, johnson, jackson) to try to get done. thats not even considering players they target in free agency.
Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.
by boomsauce on Feb 7, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How in the world did they get themselves into this situation? Where the @#$% is the money tied up?
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 7, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
buddy’s handed out a handful of deals since he took over (fitz, williams, kelsay, wilson, mcintyre, edwards, merriman, thigpen, smith, pears). for all the talk that ralph is so cheap and the bills dont spend any money- they actually do.
i mean, dont overreact… the bills arent exactly in salary cap jail, but they arent “way undercap” like most of the fanbase thinks.
Its fun to think quarterback, but i think the odds of nix taking one in the first are close to 0%.
by boomsauce on Feb 7, 2012 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Where the @#$% is the money tied up?
Maybin.
Haha, you can still use that answer. Sad…
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
But in that alternate reality, it’s quite possible Maybin became the stud and Orakpo flamed out.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 7, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Any cap hit would have been accelerated to the 2011 cap most likely.
The teams have an option and since we have our cash to cap philosphy I can’t see them defering a hit they had room to absorb.
It will be interesting to see if there are any June 1st cuts by us this year though. Pitt will have to trim a ton of salary this year.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
NO Franchise Tag
I’m not a big fan of the franchise tag to begin with, and this case is no exception. If Stevie is worth $9M+ to franchise, then pony up and get him a contract in that range. But if the Bills are offering him $7.5M per year as suggested, and he’s made comments to Jim Rome that he wants to test free-agency, then it’s pretty clear to me that despite his claims he wanted to stay in Buffalo, that he’s only looking at the Bills as a safety net. I already think the $7.5M per year is more than he’s earned, and more a reflection of potential than anything. I don’t want to see Stevie walk, but I also don’t want the Bills to overpay just to keep the fan base happy.
And all those talking about the Bills having tons of salary cap room, not so fast.
Tack on McKelvin
and you get $29million in savings and longer lifespans for Bills fans who have aneurysms watching him forget to put his arms between the ball and the receiver.
"The Amish Rifle is your god now." - Muzza34
by BuffaloOwdaTwnr on Feb 7, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It is obvious
We need to re-sign him. We can all say he is or isn’t worth the exact dollar amounts being thrown around. We all saw how our WR corps performed other than Stevie, not good. Someone posted that he has hit his ceiling, really? How do we know what his ceiling is anyway? He’s started 2 years and posted 2 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons. I’d say he could most definitely improve from there. He’s a young guy, not a huge deep threat, but a great route runner is very valuable in this league. That is what Jerry Rice was. We need to keep the talent we draft. We got a good deal for the past 2 years on Steve, now we know he is a legit #1 or #2 WR. So pay him. Letting him walk is a failure on our part. If we can’t lock him up soon enough on a long term deal, then yes, franchise him. Then begin working on a long term deal that’s fair. It’s simple really.
"What it takes to win is simple, it's not easy."
-Marv Levy
How can you say “he is a legit #1 or #2 WR” and think he’d be worth $9.4M to franchise him? If he’s a top #1 WR then I can see it. But I thought Nelson was more reliable than Stevie. Yes, Stevie has great potential, but if I’m Nix, I’m not taking a $9.4M chance on potential to be an elite WR. And we as fans should have seen too many busts over the past decade to want our team to overpay. At least that’s the way I see this situation.
nelson may be more reliablebut he is a slot reciever and he cannot beat Revis 1 on 1 like stevie can well i guess no one can so IMO that makes him worth using the TAG on if nothing else you can trade him for a draft pick, i bet that Brady and the hoody would be happy to have him line up on the outside
If Nelson was more reliable he would have had better stats than Stevie. And I personally would pay $9.4 mil on someone with “potential” to be an elite WR. The guy is young but he’s good. Overpaying one year to see if he can keep his production up isn’t a huge price considering we might be starting David Nelson and Donald Jones next year. You can’t consider Steve even a possible bust because he’s already produced. I’m amazed at any Bills fan saying let him walk.
"What it takes to win is simple, it's not easy."
-Marv Levy
Question for you all
for $3 million a year ( $5million a yr, 2.5 dead money) who do you all think that Nix will find to replace Kelsay, he s great against the run, has a high motor and stays healthy
I can't believe I'm about to say this..
we can’t replace Kelsay, he’s too valuable to the continuity of the team…I feel so dirty now
Must Tag
The Bills absolutely should tag him if they do not work out long term contract. Even its simply so they can trade him for a pick. They cannot nor should not let him walk for nothing. As has been said, based on cash to cap concept Bills would save money on cap money this year if its only for 9.5 million instead of 20+ million bonus. At least it lets Stevie know that he needs to work with the Bills. If they dont like him or the number or the progress of negotiations, then release him later in camp (not what I would do). The tag provides so many more options and time
Finally, average of 7.5 million is for a WR around 15 th this year. But over the life of 4-5 years, if he signs at 7.5 avg and plays at his current level, he will be underpaid when factoring a possible increase in the cap/salaries for WR.
why isnt Stevie an elite WR
back to back 1000 yd seasons, he is a great route runner, gets open against Revis, pretty good hands, he is reminds me of Jerry Rice
Know reminds me of Jerry Rice?
Jerry Rice. So Amazing.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 7, 2012 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Terrible comparison.
"Everyone who has conducted an expedition will know how ready the world is to do the great injustice of heaping the whole praise or blame for its success or failure on the shoulders of the leader alone."
-Polar Explorer Fridtjof Nansen
by NordicBillsfan on Feb 7, 2012 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
would people start to compare players that are the same type of player, you cannot compare Stevie(5`11``) to Megatron(6`5``) , it is better to compare him to Jerry Rice,
you do know
SJ is 6’2 not 5’11 right? I sort of agree with your point you should compare him to players around his same skill set and situation, but to compare him to the greatest WR of all time is also a bit tough. I’d compare him to a guy who has played well despite being on a crappy team or inconsistent team with no real #2 WR. Guys like Roddy White (before they got Julio), or Mike Williams (TB) come to mind. Hell even Santana Moss in Washington or Anquan Boldin in Bal. All have produced despite okay-below average QBs. I like to compare Stevie to Larry Fitz myself. Fitz is unbelieveable at catching jump balls and Stevie is great at making moves and twisting defenders up. As soon as Larry Fitz lost his franchise QB in Warner his #s have started to go down, as soon as Stevie gets a real #1 QB here his #s will sky rocket.
"I promise you, ... When I come back, I'm going to be like a mad dog in a meat house." -Takeo Spikes
This just got me daydreaming about a Fitzgerald/Johnson, 1-2 punch. Never happen, but WOW.
…Going back to dream land now………
"WE’RE SUPER FREAKY" – STEVIE J
The Bills are like your parents. You can’t choose them, and no matter how much they disappoint you, and no matter how much you want to hate them, you simply love them. - BuffaloOwdaTwnr
by BigBlkGr8Dane on Feb 7, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
That would be awesome
They would be very good compliments to each other. But like you said probably will never happen.
"I promise you, ... When I come back, I'm going to be like a mad dog in a meat house." -Takeo Spikes
You realize that Stevie is completely unorthodox in his routes right? Comparing him to anyone other than Stevie would be inaccurate.
He dekes in his routes more than any other WR we have seen. Chan allows him that flexibility and Fitz trusts him to be where he’s supposed to be.
Stevie also runs very unique routes, not the standard ones that most systems use.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
That's exactly right
That’s what has allowed him to make plays on guys like Revis. He runs great routes, they are awesome to watch. It’s like freestyle route running. He looks like a basketball player
"What it takes to win is simple, it's not easy."
-Marv Levy
yes which is why
I said Stevie is great at making moves and twisting defenders up. He’s not the fastest, most agile or quickest but he does know how to put it all together in one. You could say comparing anyone to anybody would be inaccurate because not a single player is alike or identical so not really sure why you would nitpick something like that?
"I promise you, ... When I come back, I'm going to be like a mad dog in a meat house." -Takeo Spikes
Didn't mean to nitpick, just pointing out what you just said yourself...
You could say comparing anyone to anybody would be inaccurate because not a single player is alike or identical
All these player comparisons, like you mention, usually aren’t very accurate and are just a pet peeve of mine.
Even more so with Stevie since his style is pretty unique in itself.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
Jerry Rice is on a completely different level. There are few players like him. Jim Brown is another. You don’t compare other players to them, honestly.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 7, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
would say no to franchise tag, if he really wants a deal it will get done
by billfan on Feb 7, 2012 3:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Tag him
Do I think he’s worth that kind of money? Not necessarily, though I do believe we have t overpay to keep some players. However, overall, the franchise tag saves the team money in the long run. And more importantly, as thefourwinds brought up above, it gives the Bills an extra year’s draft and FA period to replace him if they’re planning on letting him walk. I see no reason at all, on a roster with so many holes, not to do everything in their power to not create another one.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
Tag him at 9.5 for sure.
I think you need to tag him cause you can’t afford to loose him. Find a way of getting a long term extension done, but you can’t let him walk out the door.
not about the yearly average?
Just not trusting the agent on this one. If it was as simple as asking for an average of 7.5m then would most likely be a done deal already. For a good but not great receiver that is very reasonable and a great deal for a player already in the system. As others below have mentioned there are most likely other issues the agent is angling for which he is not going public with. Stevie would have tons of other teams interested in him, but I’m not sure it would be at a much better pay that 7.5m. And he would be taking a real big risk going to another team which would entail a new system, new qb, new coach, etc. and you never know how much that would affect his level of play.
This may be as simple as gamesmanship by the agent trying to prove his value to his clients (and potential clients), and showing how much he is ‘fighting’ for his client. All the time knowing that the Bills will at the very least give him that 7.5m at the deadline, after of course he raises his personal profile.
Yes, he is worth it.
Just to sign the tag and then close the deal on a long-term contract.
They should’ve got it done this/last year with all the money left on the table.
"My new cat just farted on my lap. Smells like Bills football." BG.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Feb 7, 2012 6:07 PM EST reply actions
Yep -- git er done.
It’s easy for us fans to quibble over dollars and if he’s worth 9.4 vs. less. IMO offer up close to that and franchise him if that doesn’t get it done. As everyone has stated already, we have enough unproven holes to fill already and this is one we can control w/o giving away the farm. NE was so blessed having Gronk and Fernandez. As much as I hate NE, you know that a healthy Gronk probably spells the difference for them in the SB and it never would have come down to missed catches in the 4th qtr. We need Stevie and one other legitimate threat to go w/ him. Roscoe is done, our “hopes” are that Easley stays healthy and produces even 35-40 catches to go along w/ Nelson and the cast of characters. Easley is easily equivalent to whoever our 3rd round WR pick would be in 2012 and only OBD knows if they want to roll those dice or note. Sign Stevie or franchise him – do NOT let him in FA market.
by AlwaysaBillinPhilly on Feb 7, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
I post this above... but realize it really is my entire view on this.
just pay the man. accept that premier players, who you have invested time and effort into, command legitimate contracts. Building with young guys over and over, and taking on aged/declining FAs is no way to make a roster. Ask the Redskins. At some point, you have to pay your actual players, you know- the way that Nix said he was planning when he took the job over.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
If we can’t come to terms this year then a franchise tag is a win-win in my opinion. The Bills pay an extra 2 million with no signing bonus to retain one of there best young players and keep him off the open market. Stevie gets a nice pay raise, stays in Buffalo, and gets a chance to show the team he is worth what he’s asking for
give him his $7.5 mil and lets move on. Thats not to say that you don’t load his contract up with provisions to get him to stop his BS on the field. The guy can play football. Give him a solid contract. put provisions in so he loses $250,000- $500,000 EACH YEAR for EACH INCIDENT that draws a flag, and let’s move on. If he doesn’t get a flag and gets fined he keeps his money (other than his donation to the league). Sure he won’t want that kind of provision in his contract for his antics, but if he wants the money then it’s time to grow up and be professional.
He’s a talented young guy. Keep him around, just make sure he knows this is a place of work, not a playground.
I'd rather
Pay him 10 mil for one year then commit 8.5 mil for 5 years and have him disappear. I believe cash to the cap will be the way to go in the future with all teams having to spend 99% of the cap year after year. They need to have free cash to pay for the pay raises all of them get, so, dead cap space will be a killer in the future. The way the Bills do business could become the norm. Wouldn’t that be a shock to see Buffalo ahead of the curve for once.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory, then slowly fade away in the antiquities of time.
Comfortable No
But I would do it. If he has another stellar year, he may be worth the money long run. If not, you then have time to work out other options.
Go big or go home.
It would be interesting to know
What the Bills offer was? Just to know how far apart they are.
Are we drafting Dino's now?
"6'6" monster receiver with a Terradactyl wingspan "....... Keysh67
by Billsfanstuckinthesouth on Feb 8, 2012 7:45 AM EST reply actions
Keep your core players, as a rule of thumb.
Stevie is a core player. He has proven chemistry with the QB. He’s young and charismatic.
He’s worth 8 million a year.
Unload the dead wood: cut replaceable players like McKelvin.
I like to believe this has more to do with the Bills players feeling like they can be something special. They started a year 0-8 and finished 4-4 while taking playoff and championship game bound teams to OT and 3 pt nail biters. All this with one year under a new coach and with a young roster. Im sure they can feel what they are capable of. -poz
cut replaceable players like McKelvin.
PLEASE!!!!! PLEASE!!!!! PLEASE!!!!
"The Amish Rifle is your god now." - Muzza34
by BuffaloOwdaTwnr on Feb 8, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
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