Poll: Which Buffalo Bills Free Agent Gets Post-Stevie Priority?
by Brian Galliford on Feb 8, 2012 12:21 PM EST
in Buffalo Bills News
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There's little question that when it comes to Buffalo Bills free agents, Stevie Johnson is atop nearly every fan's wish list in terms of players to be re-signed. Our question for you today, Bills fans, is which of the team's other unrestricted free agents follows Johnson on that list?
In the poll below, we've listed every single unrestricted free agent the Bills have this season - sans Stevie, of course - lest anyone that really wants to vote for Dave Rayner be left out. (Don't vote for Rayner. Everyone that votes for Rayner is obviously a Patriots, Jets or Dolphins fan. Probably Dolphins. Lame. At the very least, this will give us an unofficial troll count.) Note also that restricted and exclusive rights free agents are not involved here, as they are far easier to retain.
The poll is below, and the comments section is yours to debate the merits of your vote, and the other nominees you considered. Go!
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In order
Chandler
Scott
Bell
With the first pick in the 2012 draft the Indianapolis Colts select Robert Griffen III
by Gpluehri on Feb 8, 2012 12:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Full disclosure: I voted for Demetrius Bell. The rationale is simple: Bell is a good (if injury-prone) offensive linemen, and you can never have enough of those. If the price is right, he’s the only guy in contention for the top of my list post-Stevie.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 8, 2012 12:25 PM EST reply actions 10 recs
I also voted for Bell
He played much better this year and seems to be getting comfortable at the tackle position. It also keeps our O-line together and provides depth and/or a reliable starter. I think stability at the tackle and guard position is much more valuable than the TE position, but Chandler would be next in line on this list for me. Obviously the TE position is becoming more valuable in the NFL but if Chandler cannot be had for the right price then we need a better free agent acquisition and a decent rookie drafted.
"What it takes to win is simple, it's not easy."
-Marv Levy
I’m not sure how they’d get a better FA if they don’t pay Chandler. They’d have to spend more money on bringing a guy in and i’m not certain they value spending big money on a TE if Chandler’s not their guy.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
Well, there are better free agents out there. I like Chandler but if he wants a big contract my opinion is we look elsewhere. If he wants a mid range contract then of course sign him. But if he wants a lot of money we could (possibly aka not likely) land a Jermichael Finley, John Carlson, Visanthe Shiancoe, Martellus Bennett or Fred Davis.
"What it takes to win is simple, it's not easy."
-Marv Levy
Kellen Davis
Chicago Bears…he is almost like Chandler’s twin and may have a bit more upside.
He is 6 foot 7 263 he blocked for Matt Forte but also was a solid receiver.
I completely agree with this. At the very least, he’s a solid back-up tackle, and there is absolutely no reason not to sew up as many of those as we can, in my mind.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
Yes, Bell
Pro Football Focus just rated Bell the most improved Bill during 2011 and gave him a pretty high score for his performance during this past season (when he was on the field). According to their stats, he allowed only one sack and one QB pressure all year. That’s the kind of LT you want to have. It’s true that he was injured, but then again he started all 16 games in 2010. Having him along with Hairston effectively solves the Bills’ LT issues for the moment and allows the team to focus on more crucial needs like DE and OLB.
Scott Chandler was a tempting choice as well, and I would love to see the team re-sign him, but more important is going into the FA market and landing an even better TE like Seattle’s John Carlson, who as Der Jaeger has pointed out will almost certainly be available this year. Gailey has said repeatedly he wants a TE who can both catch AND block, and Chandler is not the best blocker. Carlson can do both. So that’s why I voted for Bell over Chandler.
by Macktruck on Feb 8, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Agree
At worst, Bell is a swing tackle. At best, he’s playing to the level noted by PFF, and Buffalo has a good LT and a good swing tackle in Hairston.
My thoughts on this situation are:
- Isn’t it amazing what competition does?
- Bell over Chandler because I can live with Lee Smith starting. I can’t go through another Kirk Chambers / Jamon Meredith swing tackle era. I really like the idea of the loser of the Bell / Hairston competition as the swing tackle. That’s quality depth.
- There are better options in UFA than Chandler, like Carlson, as you mentioned.
Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
by Der Jaeger on Feb 8, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
what good does he do us on the bench?
You are going to have a hell of a time convincing me that Smith is Chandler’s equal
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
He's not
But here are your choices:
a.) An average starting tight end (Chandler) but no back-up tackle worthy of starting a game.
b.) A below-average but improving 2nd year tight end (Lee Smith) and a swing tackle that can start.
Of course, you’ve got the option of both, neither, or signing a tight end to replace Chandler, or a tackle to replace Bell. Or both. But if the choice is strictly a or b, which is the point of the poll, I’d take choice b.
Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
Are you sure Chandler is average?
When Fitz was playing well, Chandler had some pretty good numbers. And if CHIX screw around and lose Stevie to free agency, that makes Chandler our only proven receiving threat on the entire team. Seems to me that should take priority over a backup OT.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ChanSc00/gamelog/2011/
Chandler had average numbers, imo.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions
How much of that was due to Fitz's decline the second half of the season?
Before the Skins game, he was averaging 1 TD per game. Call it average, but I will take it.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
I feel the Bills should resign both Bell and Chandler, and Parrish too, fwiw. But, as many have said, the price has to be right.
I’d be willing to a bit over market value for both Bell and Chandler, and would only sign Parrish, B. Scott, Ruvell Martin, and Hagan at market value or below.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
agreed on Bell and Chandler....I would resign both for the right price
I would show Parrish the door.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
I wonder how much those early TDs filter our view of Chandler. Regardless, he does seem to have a knack of finding space in the endzone, coupled with a long reach and good hands.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
yep....he is the best TE we have had since Pete M
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Before the Skins game, he was averaging 1 TD per game. Call it average, but I will take it.
actually, he was tied atop the league with Gronk for most TDs (6) and he did so in 36 receptions, compared to Gronk, i think around 55. he was scoring just as often, with far less targets.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
Yes, I'm saying Chandler is average
When Pete Metzelaars is the franchise’s best tight end ever, the lens we view tight end play is skewed. Gronkowski is elite. Dustin Keller is above average. Chandler is average.
Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
But we don't have Gronk on the roster.....Chandler is elite for the Bills
if you want to use NFL elite as the measuring stick, I’m not sure anyone on the Bills roster qualifies and certainly not Bell.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Hard to justify Chandler
He wasn’t a gamebreaker or gamechanger and 4 of his 6 TDs came in 2 games (Raiders and Redskins I believe). Aside from his TD numbers he was average to below average in every other category and disappeared a lot of the time in games. Not sure if that’s due to him or Fitz’s regression but the fact is he did disappear. He also struggled mightily in run blocking due to his lack of size (6’7 but very lanky).
I’m not saying we should let him walk or Bell for that matter I think both should and could be resigned if the price is right but neither were huge playmakers that this franchise can’t live without. They can be easily replaced or upgraded. Bell is just slightly harder to find a replacement for than Chandler is all.
"I promise you, ... When I come back, I'm going to be like a mad dog in a meat house." -Takeo Spikes
By your logic, there's no standard
Because who’s elite would then be in context of them team.
In that case, would you consider Kelsay and elite defensive end? Because he’s the best that Buffalo’s got right now.
Bell, by the PFF measuring stick, has proven that when he’s healthy, he’s not elite but above average.
Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
No.....there is a standard
I just trying to decide which one you want to use. By NFL standards, neither Bell or Chandler is elite. By Bills standards, Chandler is the best TE we have had since Pete M. Can you say the same about Bell? As far as Kelsey goes, I would have to say yes, sadly, he is elite for the Bills which is probably why he got a big fat extension and isn’t going anywhere. Same with Fitz…..he is the best we got for the time being.
Why give Bell the “when he is healthy” benefit of the doubt? Haven’t we learned anything from the Parrish supporters?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
by Joe P. on Feb 8, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here’s my standard:
By PFF standards, Chandler is average. Bell is above average. Easy choice.
Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
so you give no weight to the fact that Bell can't stay on the field?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
i know i do.
so, you aren’t alone. I think this sums it up quite nicely.
Why give Bell the "when he is healthy" benefit of the doubt? Haven’t we learned anything from the Parrish supporters?
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
by ThaRealTruth on Feb 8, 2012 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks....
It will be interesting to see if the Bills sign them both….and Stevie of course.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
i pass on roscoe
we need LEGIT talent at WR. We better keep Steve, or the organization has proven that they don’t care what the fans want. That is probably remiss, for a sales based organization. Most companies spend a lot of money on finding a way to know what their consumer’s wants are. Clearly, the majority of fans see NO good reason for him not to return.
Bell, is fine for depth, and I have said I would like to see him as a RG. Personally, never thought he was that great, he is even less great when he is on the sideline 2/3 of the time.
Chandler should be re-signed. Chan/Nix tried to downplay his production as “well look what he did before…” but we all know that he not only proved effective, but probably more than they expected, and now they are going to need to pay more than they wanted. As is often the case. What I don’t understand, is why we can’t just keep our talent here. Ever. It is pathetic.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
by ThaRealTruth on Feb 8, 2012 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
but
the low sack numbers are partly due to the short passing game and Fitz getting rid of the ball quickly, as for chandler not being a great blocker that is what Joe D’Alessandris gets payed for, to teach him how to be a great blocker and i think that is the reason they brought in Pete Metzelaars
I agree hes the next priority but I dont see it happening
I would happily sign him as a quality swing tackle and to compete to start with Chris Hairston in camp but the offensive tackle position in the free agency pool is quite shallow and he is not going to be worth the contract he looks likely to command. Unless hes willing to forgo hitting the market and allow us a hometown discount I dont think its in the Bills best interest to spend valuable assets on a guy who has yet to prove he can be a reliable on the field player – chalk it up to whatever you want but for one reason or another we keep waiting for him to turn the corner into a bonafide starting LT and yet again its a wait till next year song. Love his story, love him on the roster but Im very skeptical of his price tag. You’re right, he and Hairston would be a great duo to have but Im not so sure its realistic.
I’d also tend to caution against drawing too many conclusions regarding PFFs rating and their stats on him as I believe our entire offensive line was ranked by them as the best in the business and statistically was. A lot of that has to do with Ryan Fitzpatrick’s quick decision making and release and Chan Gailey’s short passing, timing offense – which got us into trouble in the second half of the season when teams keyed on that. Those stats and this offense will get a lot of guys more money from other teams. With so many needs the Bills shouldn’t spend what he wants unless hes being reasonable.
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
by poz on Feb 8, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
and for the record
I dont even think hes the hands on favorite to start (dont need to reiterate my feelings on him as a starter), which alone makes it difficult to negotiate with a man who knows he’ll see that dough elsewhere.
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
by poz on Feb 8, 2012 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think Hairston struggled mightily at times – Bell if healthy would beat him out I think. Although players do make a large jump from 1st to 2nd years
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 8, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions
yea I think itd be a close camp battle
it would be a great one to watch too.
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
by poz on Feb 8, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget that Bell still has not had a full off-season of NFL caliber conditioning and strength training.
He will this off-season though.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
don't forget
each has the same number years in the system. Hairston started as a LT through college. Bell was a TE. Hairston has the upside and size, Bell has athleticism… and, injury issues. He should be moved to RG to back up Urbik, or to start, if Wood can’t go immediately.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
Same number of years in Gailey's system? Hairston was a rookie so this was his first year compared to Bell's second.
Bell played LT in college for two years, he was a DE before that.
The point about the off-season program though was to point out that it may help his durability going forward. Not a guarantee of course, but a possibility since the coaches kept mentioning that he needed some weight room work.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
given the number of games played
I feel as though Hairston has similar relative experience at the LT position. I guess that would have been the more appropriate phrasing. Thank you for the college info- i thought he was a former TE that was converted, like Peters.
Idk that I agree that the offseason will do much for him. Unless somehow he just never learned to manage his body prior to this point, he has been doing this too long to have another season like he has so far. If he did… he would be even less valuable, and probably just after being signed to a pretty decent contract. Don’t get me wrong, I think Bell is a starter, but given his size, relative athleticism, pension for being a better run blocker…. I think he is a prototype for a RG, and he has some experience. Urbik may have to be a center, and he might be worth just being a GREAT depth guy, who we still rotate in… Because if Bell could prove versatile, and so does Urbik, then we can carry the number of guys we want, without really needing to add anyone. That is the only way I see Bell as a value. Otherwise, I think him a liability. A Roscoe Parrish on the O line.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
Hairston-levitre-Wood (urbik)- bell-pears starters
backups
bell – rinehart/urbik – urbik – urbik/rinehart – bell/hairston
that means we only have Hairston, Levitre, Wood, Urbik, Pears, Rinehart, Bell. 7 guys, all positions have backups, practice squad carries Jasper, and we can always know that there could be other guy that could get added somehow someway if wood can’t play, or if someone did get a bad enough injury. I say, that Young could be better than Brown, who I think can only be a RT, and not an amazing one, at that.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
What you are leaving out is that Bell has more inherent athletic ability (i.e., quick feet and coordination) to play LT than Hairston. Bell is a natural at the position, while Hairston is not. Hairston could develop over time — that remains to be seen — but for the moment Bell is a much better LT.
if i "left that out"
it was probably because I don’t agree. If I did agree- it wouldn’t matter. Because I don’t care how athletic you are, when you are on the bench, and the guy playing is getting the job done. I think Hairson is underestimated. I think he is athletic for someone his size. I also don’t see Bell as anywhere near a “natural” for the position. I also watched every single game over and over, including when time was being split. Bell is not “much better”. He let up as many pressures as did Hairston. Not to mention the fact that Hairston, as a rookie, was being asked to go in, and come out, and go in… for the sake of what? Seeing if Bell could play yet, and then watching them both play poorly? I didn’t agree with yet another personnel decision. Unless Chan is just tinkering, while they get their footing, so he knows what guys are capable of, there is no reason for him to make so many questionable position moves, for me.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
Yeah that is a big if
Bell if healthy
might as well throw in Terrance M, then we don’t need to worry about getting a CB either
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
McGee hasn’t started a full year in the last 4, Bell has. I don’t think they’re comparable.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
you will have to remind me again
which year(s) did Bell play as the starting LT without miss games due to inury?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
2010
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 8, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions
Yep.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
so one year...
and how many years of his career has he missed games due to injury?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
answer....the other two
he only played 8 games in 2009 and 7 games in 2011. Do you really want to roll the dice on him being healthy a full season this year and the expense of losing our only TE?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Nope, but then again all I said was that McGee’s situation and Bell’s are not comparable, in my opinion.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
the comparison would be that
Bell has missed at least half of the seasons games due to injury for 2/3 of the seasons he has played as a starter. This was the first year in his career that McGee missed more than half the season
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McGeTe99.htm
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
My point is more that I can see Bell coming in next year and being healthy for the whole season. I can’t imagine McGee ever being healthy for an entire season again. With that in mind, no, they are not comparable to me.
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
apples & oranges
People are saying don’t sign Bell cause he injury prone…heck the same label should be placed on Eric Wood….So what’s the difference? I know but I wont say it this time cause this is Buffalo & i don’t want to outrage a certain segment of the population.
by rexachss on Feb 9, 2012 7:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think Wood gets more of a pass because he got his leg snapped in half after starting
10 games as a rookie…can’t really blame him on that one. He only missed two games in 2010, and wasn’t that because CHIX were playing it safe getting him back from that leg injury? This year Wood got hit from the side….
just like with the broken leg, I’m not sure you can blame him for getting hurt on that hit. At this point, I am chalking up Wood’s injuries to bad luck.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
apples & oranges
People are saying don’t sign Bell cause he injury prone…heck the same label should be placed on Eric Wood….So what’s the difference? I know but I wont say it this time cause this is Buffalo & i don’t want to outrage a certain segment of the population.
by rexachss on Feb 9, 2012 7:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
A lot of that has to do with Ryan Fitzpatrick’s quick decision making and release and Chan Gailey’s short passing, timing offense
Who gets credit for our running game, which was much improved in 2011?
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
the passing game gets the credit for the running game, in 2010 there was no fear of the passing attack from buffalo there was in 2011, it is harder to stop the run if u only have 6 or 7 men in the box instead of 8 like they did for most of the 2010 season, plus we upgraded our Center, if Jasper improves the way we all hope he will, the Bills will have 1 of the best interior lines in the league
I never said they got all the credit
I said a lot of it. Nothing wrong with playing well in a system, thats not a knock. The Patriots and their championship players have won 3 and been to 5 playing in a system. It doesnt take anything away from what Deion Branch (ask Seattle), Josh McDaniels (ask Denver) Matt Cassell (ask Kansas City) and others have done in New England to say they werent worth what other teams gave them once they were outside the system.
Demetrius Bell is a great re-sign for the right price. I dont see him agreeing to one knowing someone out there will pay more for him
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
by poz on Feb 8, 2012 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think Arizona and San Diego
might both sign him to be their starter. Arizona doesnt have a LT and San Diego is reportedly going to cut Marcus McNeil because of back and neck injuries (and to save 10 mil)
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
by poz on Feb 8, 2012 3:20 PM EST up reply actions
Who
was going to pay Jonathan Scott? Who was going to pay Mike Gandy? Offensive linemen who have started and played reasonable will always get a look. Why get rid of the competition during camp with Hariston? He is not that good where he should be odds on favorite. If Bell goes, they still need to upgrade the left side.
by J09 on Feb 8, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
The O-line.....
Played great last year, no ifs ands or buts and did with injuries galore.
Bell is slam dunk starter aside from his long list of injuries. He really took a huge step last year, aside from the injuries.
Gailey took off the training wheels last year and he stayed up just fine.
It will be all about his injuries in the coming months.
PodunkO - The great post ender!
cant agree with you there
and when have I ever made “ifs” and “buts” about the offensive line, Ive done nothing but praise them all season long for proving themselves to be far better than I gave them credit for. However we have limited cap space and being smart about your spending is crucial to building a winner.
Calling a guy who started 6 games playing well in an offense designed for quick passes after a history of playing poorly and getting injured a slam dunk starter is something I cant get onboard with and is the type of reaction that is precisely why someone is going to offer him more money than hes worth.
Look, I want Bell back but definitely not at slam dunk starter money because hes been nothing of the sort.
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
by poz on Feb 8, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I Disagree, Brian.
We have Hairston, who played at the same level as Bell when he filled in. And if Bell gets hurt, we move Levitre over there and shuffle the line. It’s not ideal, but we can get by that way.
Chandler is the only good TE we had. And not just the only good TE we have now; Scott Chandler is the only good TE the Buffalo Bills have had since Jay Riemersma!
Scott Chandler is the larger priority.
"The Amish Rifle is your god now." - Muzza34
by BuffaloOwdaTwnr on Feb 8, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Correction
And if Bell gets hurt, we move Levitre over there and shuffle the line.
I meant “Hairston,” not “Bell.”
"The Amish Rifle is your god now." - Muzza34
by BuffaloOwdaTwnr on Feb 8, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
And if Bell gets hurt, we move Levitre over there and shuffle the line.
No, Levitre can become an All-Pro guard, better to have Hairston/Bell/Pears & Lee Smith than it is to have Hairston/Pears/??? & Scott Chandler.
Again, just my two cents.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
agreed, draft TE in 5th round
starters Hairston Levitre Wood Rinehart Pears
backups Bell Jasper Urbik Brown Young
BELL
OBD can pick up a quality TE at the top of the 5th round, getting a quality back up of Bells ability will not be available after the second round, besides with Chans sytle of offence the TE isnt an important part but depth on the O-line is very important
They haven’t picked up a quality TE in the draft in years. Why let go of the one guy that finally shows some true effort and talent on the field?
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think anyone is against resigning Chandler, just that Bell should be the priority.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Given his injury history, is he really a flight risk?
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
what is more important to you? signing a TE that can be replaced cheeper in the draft and sign Vincent Jackson or signing chandler and still not having a deep threat to open up the short passes
I’m not convinced Buffalo will place enough emphasis on drafting a TE, no matter how great the need is in any given year. I see Chandler as a guy who opened some eyes and played much bigger than his role originally required of him.
I don’t see why signing Chandler means they can’t sign a FA WR.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
I’m approaching the situation in an entire different manner than you are. I’m thinking less about “how we can get by” and more about “how the team should be built” – and they need good players on the offensive line more than they need a good tight end, in my opinion.
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 8, 2012 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
The biggest issue I have with Bell
is he is not trustworthy due to his health. We already have one OL that is injury prone (in Wood) and to have 2 out of 5 be injury prone is just asking for trouble. I have read that both of Wood’s injuries are “one of a kind” and won’t likely reoccur, but, it is kind of frustrating to see him spend 2 of his first 3 years on iR.
For that reason and for that reason alone, I’d go with Scott, Chandler, Bell. Health matters.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory, then slowly fade away in the antiquities of time.
I’m not counting Bell among five offensive linemen. I’m counting him among 8 or 9. That diminishes his “untrustworthiness” a bit, but of course I’ll grant you that it’s an issue.
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 8, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t understand why you think someone as good depth is more important than a good starter at TE. I simply don’t feel they will struggle to retain Bell. I don’t think he’s going to get a ton of suitors with his injury history. Chandler played well in an offense that historically ignores his position, and he happens to play the position that the entire NFL is haivng an affair with these days.
Until Buffalo proves they have a player better than him, he’s priority #1 on this list to me.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
someone as good depth is more important than a good starter
Because quality depth is extremely valuable in the NFL.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
so is a quality starter......even more so wouldn't you say
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Depends on the position, I would say.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
still doesn't make sense to me to essentially play with 10.5 men on the field
so we can have a backup OT
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
by Joe P. on Feb 8, 2012 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hairston's play slipped at the end of the year though.
We have Hairston, who played at the same level as Bell when he filled in
By the end of the year, he was not playing at Bell’s level when he was in. Hairston may have been still nursing his injury, or teams may have had enough tape on him to see how to beat him.
I don’t think Hairston will ever be an elite LT while Bell has the potential too. I like Hairston as a swing T for another year or two and then push Pears for the RT spot where I think Hairston fits the best.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
Hairston did not play at same level as Bell
It became clear that, at least as of 2011, Bell is a better LT than Hairston, which is why Bell returned to his starting role as soon as he was healthy. It’s hard to say how Hairston will develop, though he does not appear to have the quick, agile feet that are needed at LT (and which Bell does possess). Individually, Hairston and Bell represent risks — though of a different sort. Together, they allow the Bills to set aside the position of LT for the next few years and address other crucial needs.
As I wrote before, Scott Chandler is a very good TE, but wouldn’t we rather have John Carlson? How about a group of TE’s that included Carlson, Chandler and Lee Smith? That would actually allow us to catch up with the NFL vanguard — the teams like New England that rely on two effective pass-catching TE’s.
This strategy was missing in the Inner Circle years
Bell and Hairston aren’t the greatest, but both a capable left tackles, and both have good football ahead of them.
Bell has shown that he’s an effective LT. His problem is health. If he can stay on the field, he’s a good LT.
Hairston has upside, good feet, and great size. He could eventually be the starter with development.
The two of them together don’t equate to Joe Thomas, but they give Buffalo good left tackles, and very good tackle depth. Which means Nix can focus in other places for a year or two. Maybe more.
Re-starting the official Buffalo "Draft a quarterback in the First Round in 2012" campaign.
The two of them together don’t equate to Joe Thomas, but they give Buffalo good left tackles, and very good tackle depth. Which means Nix can focus in other places for a year or two.
Agreed.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
well said..rec'd
Chandler is the only good TE we had.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
And furthermore....
He is THE offensive lineman; the left tackle.
We haven’t clue as to the extent of his injuries, but healthy, he becomes a stalwart LT. (if he isn’t already) IHMO
PodunkO - The great post ender!
Yes -- we've been a long way from even OK at LT for too long
Bell and then Chandler a somewhat distant 2nd for me. We know what we have in Bell and while he may not be elite, IMO at least 60-70% of the rest of the league would take him to be their starting LT and that’s good enough for me.
by AlwaysaBillinPhilly on Feb 8, 2012 8:35 PM EST up reply actions
How is Rayner even on this list? Are you just checking to see who is paying attention or who is maybe trying to sabotage these polls?
somebody skipped the text and went right to the poll
by tm on Feb 8, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
This is why I do it, folks. The entertainment value of “who read it?” or “how many trolls do we really have?” is highly valuable to a guy like me.
Editor-in-Chief, BUFFALO RUMBLINGS®
Follow @BrianGalliford
by Brian Galliford on Feb 8, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Anyone who voted for Reggie Corner should be considered a Troll as well.
“He’s turrrabull.” Charles Barkley.
"My new cat just farted on my lap. Smells like Bills football." BG.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Feb 8, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
D. Bell
Voted for the LT because of the hole/need it creates (even if only depth) if he isn’t resigned.
Every other player on this list has a role with the franchise. Those roles, however, are far easier to replace than Bell’s.
Really?
Hairston replaces Bell…who replaces Chandler?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
by Joe P. on Feb 8, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Monica
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Marcel?
"a play in which nothing happens, that yet keeps audiences glued to their seats". -Vivian Mercier - a description of Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot"
According to Beckett, Godot was a metaphor for the Buffalo Bills :-)
Hairston replaces Bel
Who replaces Hairston as back-up/swing tackle ? That is more important question relative to who replaces Chandler, imo.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
Starters over backups every day my friend
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Maybe in league where there any a high frequency of injuries. But this is the NFL, my friend, and having a 3rd competent tackle is likely as important as having a mediocre starting TE.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
like I said below, have CHIX polish another turd at backup OT...they are all over the pasture
If Fitz is going to have any success this coming season, he will need at least one receiving target over the middle he can trust as his go to guy.
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Maybe as a blocker, but not as a scoring threat.
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
by thefourwinds on Feb 8, 2012 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
exactly.....and with CHIX history of
dumpster diving for Olineman, they can just grab a LT off someone’s PS….probably the Giants since they won the SB :-)
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
I’m with you Joe, but i’m also not sure they can’t keep both players. I don’t think Bell commands an exorbitant amount this offseason.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
agreed....I would keep Bell for the right price,
but if I had to pick it would be Chandler
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
so you want to make a 4th round pick our starting TE ?????
I would rather keep Chandler, draft Green, and have two good TEs like a certain AFC East Champ
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
And you’re certain the Bills will be able to draft him? Why should the team give up on a guy who posted big games for them at a position they haven’t seen in near a generation?
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think Hairston is ready to be a full time starter at LT (based on 2011 performance). If we don’t resign Bell, we’ll be looking for a starter at LT in free agency or the draft and that is not an easy position to fill (as we’ve seen since the departure of Jason Peters).
Regarding Chandler, I don’t think he’s anything special. Probably a below average blocker for a TE and a good redzone threat that basically disappeared at the end of the season. I’ve seen Lee Smith’s name dropped on this thread. Not saying he’s Chandler’s equal, but the drop off is probably negligable. And, if we decide to upgrade the TE Position, it will not take a premium draft pick or a big money free agent.
Bell
He’s graduated from being absolutely atrocious to the point of it being sad to watch him play back in 2009 to where he was genuinely effective in 2011 (when on the field). If he’s finally healthy, I see no reason the club wouldn’t want him back. Nix is on record saying Buffalo’s priority in free agency is to keep their own rather than add players and if that’s truly the case and not lip serice to rationalize an unwillingness to sign free agents, then why create another hole on a roster saddled with them?
"There's only one C.J. Spiller." -Buddy Nix
I agree 100% with Brian’s statement at the top….we need as many decent tackles and offensive linemen that can play football as possible. He is a solid starter, even if we agree that he isn’t a starter…that is a great guy to have for a backup. We have no backup tackles…better sign him.
My order:
Bell
Chandler
Scott
Bell. Chandler is a good red zone target, but he disappeared in a lot of games. Bell was playing at a very high level when he was healthy.
by J.Haze on Feb 8, 2012 12:56 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Voted for Chandler
I believe Bell has more upside than Chandler, but I believe Chandler will loss significantly less playing time due to injuries. I see Bell in the mode of Tim Connolly, a very talented player who cannot stay in the game long enough to make the impact his talent suggests.
conundrum
Bell isn’t all that dependable(dependable= ability + health) to warrant starting LT money. Yet, that’s what he’s going to want. The lack of OBD addressing this position more fervently over the last few years is going to come back and bite them.
Do you pay a back up starting $$? Do you insert a so so second year LT as starter and get another rookie as back up? Do you go let Bell go and go after a starter in FA with Hairston remaining back up for now?
Heading for more Bills (inept) drama, me thinks.
"a play in which nothing happens, that yet keeps audiences glued to their seats". -Vivian Mercier - a description of Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot"
According to Beckett, Godot was a metaphor for the Buffalo Bills :-)
Bell isn’t all that dependable(dependable= ability + health) to warrant starting LT money. Yet, that’s what he’s going to want.
Well, we can’t truly know this?
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
your comment is in the form of a question but i don’t understand the question. Are you saying we should know what he wants or we cannot be sure what he wants?
"a play in which nothing happens, that yet keeps audiences glued to their seats". -Vivian Mercier - a description of Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot"
According to Beckett, Godot was a metaphor for the Buffalo Bills :-)
We can’t be sure that Bell & his agent are going to go all Jason Peters on us. Unless another team (or teams) make a big play for Bell, he and his agent may sign with the Bills for a reasonable contact.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
OK, well the whole point of this article is “conjecture” regarding what the Bills should do. Of course, we don’t know their priority list. However, I cannot imagine Bell or any player really being “reasonable”, as in accepting below market value for a starting LT. Truly, IMO, Bell is somewhere in between starter and back up. His durability compounds that fact.
My point was the Bills have little bargaining power because of their inattention to the position. They have painted themselves into a corner and almost have to pay him starter money….Another example of paying big bucks for not so big performers.
"a play in which nothing happens, that yet keeps audiences glued to their seats". -Vivian Mercier - a description of Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot"
According to Beckett, Godot was a metaphor for the Buffalo Bills :-)
Really?
My point was the Bills have little bargaining power because of their inattention to the position.
They had 2 capable players manning the position, but you are still begrudging them for not doing what you wanted them to do a couple years ago. Their patience was rewarded by the development of Bell, can’t you give credit where credit is due?
Other teams, as well as Bell’s agent, know his injury history and what that will do to his value. Assuming it will take premium money to retain him is not correct. If he hits the open market then one team may offer up a hefty contract though since he would be an upgrade at LT for numerous teams.
However, other Bills players have taken less than perceived “market value” to stay in Buffalo, namely Aaron Schobel and Kyle Williams. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that Bell does the same.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
really
"a play in which nothing happens, that yet keeps audiences glued to their seats". -Vivian Mercier - a description of Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot"
According to Beckett, Godot was a metaphor for the Buffalo Bills :-)
Insightful.
They have painted themselves into a corner
I’m pretty sure the Colts, Steelers, Bears, Vikings, Lions and Ravens (and possibly KC and Dallas) would he happy to be painted into the same corner as us at LT.
Bell is a Tier 2 LT, not elite but solid starter, who has injury history. Hairston is a capable backup.
"I got no problem with 7-9 coming off of 4-12 as long as I don't buy a couch there, you got to keep moving" - Mike Schoop
At the right price
Bell and Chandler. At the wrong price, none of the above.
My gut tells me that neither of these guys will be given an offer by the Bills that comes close to what they can fetch on the open market. Neither of them is enough of an upgrade (over Hairston and a street FA / waiver wire pickup) to warrant $5M+ / season for Bell and $3M+ / season for Chandler, which is about where I expect the market for these guys to be at. Bell is the highest rated LT in FA. And the TE position is likely to be in extreme demand as teams jump on the Patriots bandwagon.
Being a small market team, the Bills will have to be judicious with how they spend their dollars, and I’d rather see us spend the money on a good WR or pass rusher in FA than to allocate those dollars to keep two decent, but not great players.
by NoiseIsTheBestRevenge on Feb 8, 2012 1:04 PM EST reply actions
Why, i’d have to say the only true scoring threat on that list.
"Son. People can see you!"
by TheAfghanTwilight on Feb 8, 2012 1:09 PM EST reply actions
The title threw me for a loop.
I thought for a minute that Stevie had been re-signed and I somehow missed it.
My vote is Bell. Best player on that list at a position that you need all the good players you can find.
"You are every bit as good as everyone else, but not one bit better."
-Eldred Lee
Exactly what I thought too.
Darn you, Galliford! :-)
"Fred Jackson has the power to run over linebackers and the agility to dance on their pancaked corpses." ...Munchausen
Easy choice for me, Demetrius Bell. With Bell, Pears, and Hairston, that is a average to better than average tackle situation.
After that, Chandler should be had for reasonable dollars.
Then, re-sign Scott and I would like the Bills to bring back Parrish (at the right price, of course) as I still see value in Roscoe.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 1:29 PM EST reply actions
I voted Scott
and while it was a close call with Bell, I think Hairston is far more capable of filling in than Scott’s replacement (which we don’t even have at this point). I know Bell rated out as the most improved Bill and, when health, showed signs of becoming a very good LT. But he keeps getting injured. Scott on the other hand would be our starter at SLB today and Hairston’s development has me encouraged that we at least have a decent backup to Bell so that moved Bell just a notch below Scott in terms of priority.
While I agree that Hairston could step-in for Bell, I would much prefer to have all three tackles available with Bell/Pears being spelled by Hairston.
I’m thinking Searcy can take over Scott’s reps, though I am big fan of Scott prefer the Bills to re-sign him.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
I voted for Chandler but I was waffling between him and Bell. He’s a solid reserve or adequate starter while Chandler is a legit starter. That was pretty much the only thing separating them in my mind.
by MattRichWarren on Feb 8, 2012 1:59 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Chandler is a legit starter
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ChanSc00/gamelog/2011/
Legit starter? Maybe. Need to see him repeat (and improve upon) before I can make that claim.
by PineWoodsBillsFan on Feb 8, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe “legit starter” was too strong. I like how Chandler’s game is put together both blocking and receiving. I like his potential and his flashes during the 2011 season. Bell has been nothing but average, in my opinion. He is certainly steady and I would love to have him back but with competition.
by MattRichWarren on Feb 8, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
I voted like you. Bell and Chandler are really close (as you can see in the poll results). I gave the nod (a slight nod) to Chandler. But it’s not as if I don’t want them to re-sign Bell also.
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
I must still be in post season angry/depressed mode because...
I am totaly fine with letting every guy on this list walk. Free agency in my mind is about using the opportunity to upgrade talent level and improving your team. Maybe there is a case for Chandler, but all of these guys look like hole fillers to me. Honestly, outside of Bell and maybe a healthy Parrish, every guy on this list is in a training camp battle for a practice squad spot on any other NFL roster. Time to put our big boy pants on and fight for real talent and not just the guys that are write-off’s from other organizations.
if the money is right bright back Parrish as a depth PR/SWR, Choice will be brought back because every team needs a 3rd RB, someone to take some for the big back carries from Freddy to keep him healthy,Bell is a no brainer if he gets beat out in training camp then he is a quality backup for either side, Hairston, Pears at tackle, Bell and Brown the backups no need to waste a pick on a Tackle this year
name me one LT out on the market with Bell’s ability for the money and be willing to sign in Buffalo, very important factor, as for Chandler he isnt a great blocker, isnt that fast, the question is would you rather spend the money on a TE that isnt even needed in Chan’s system or spend the money on someone like Vincent Jackson or CLiff Avril, as for Scott seeing as how he cannot cover Gronk and we have Byrd, Wilson and Searcy at safety it would be a smarter move to draft 6’4" 225lbs George Iloka FS with their 3rd round pick
Voted Bell
WIth Chandler a really really close second….
“New TEs coach Pete Metzelaars’ first priority is to get in touch with free agent Scott Chandler.
“Hopefully we can get him back,” said Metzelaars. “I know the team would like to have him come back. He had a very good year last year, and try to build upon that.” Despite his 6’7/265 frame, Pro Football Focus graded Chandler as one of the NFL’s worst run blockers. The Bills need to pair Chandler with a more athletic tight end"
Priority vs necessity?
I voted Scott Chandler based on priority. Bell is definitely a necessity for this team. We need quality o-linemen like everyone on here has stated. Chandler will garner interest from multiple different teams. His ability to catch td’s have been noted by teams w/ red zone problems. He should be our priority or he’ll likely be gone. Bell has taken a hit by the media. Many still don’t believe he is a starting caliber LT, leading me to believe his best chance at starting is in Buffalo. I would love to have both, but both is less likely if we rest on Chandler.
the thing we do have
everyone passed on the both of these guys…
Mostly Chandler we gave him a shot a fair shot. I hope that coupled with the new tight end coach gets Scott Chandler signed.
Bell only beats out Chandler by a hair. They are on the same level though. Without D.Bell we NEED to draft at LT that has instant Starter capabilities.
However a Free Agent at the TE position to look for Chicago Bears Kellen Davis I believe he literally is Scott Chandler
Bell, Chandler and Morrison
were all back and forth in my mind. Bell because itd be nice to have a top notch backup for once at OT, Chandler because hes proven to have the trust of our QB and he makes plays when the ball is thrown at him and Morrison because if we are switching to a 4-3 we need to retain LBs that have excelled in it.
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
right and hes a veteran presence
plus if we dont make a move for an OLB, he might have to start there as well
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
by poz on Feb 8, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Toss up with Scott
Morrison was under used by our previous DC and I think he could def help. he provides great depth and teaching.
Though Bryan Scott made plays in a limited role. You don’t get rid of play makers.
I know they want Searcy to see the field more but I also know in crunch time this past season Scott made big plays and INT…He can do it all.
I think the 4-3 even helps Scott even more.
do you think Scott could hold up as an OLB?
I know hes played there before in limited time but I wonder if he could do it full time.
This even grates my passive cheese - LeClaire Bill
by poz on Feb 8, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
I think Scott can be a wave of different positions in the scheme. I think putting him at one position like SLB or WLB which is open right now would hurt him.
He can play safety if Wilson goes down. He can play Either SLB or WLB. So i wouldn’t want him as a starter but i could see him being rotated in and not having a problem with it.
When you see him on the field you wouldn’t know exactly where he would be playing from a QBs perspective.
The more play-makers the better. He is reliable and we know what we got with Scott.
he probably could?
but i wouldnt want him to personally but could he play OLB full time most likely yes, however I’d rather him being a rotational safety/OLB.
he is a solid tackler, decent coverage guy who can make plays.
I’d at least want to bring him back to battle with Searcy.
I agree on the condition that we ever field the guy/use them like they should be
because he isn’t going to be free and as a veteran he will command a decent salary.
This statement applies to all mentioned, IMO.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
D.Bell and Chandler neck and neck...
If they played the same position but Bell plays the more important position so the nod goes to him.
If we sign D. Bell we can grab a tackle after the 1st or 2nd round. We don’t sign him then we almost immediately have to grab one within the 1st or 2nd because we need an immediate starter.
With Chandler either way with him signed or not we can grab a serviceable tight end in the 4th to 7th round or find someone decent on the free agent market.
Scott should be resigned.....
Rationale for not choosing Bell: Draft Jonathan Martin at 10.
The score dictated they pass
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 8, 2012 2:51 PM EST reply actions
Scott…
You mean Chandler, right? Not Bryan Scott?
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
see that's the problem
why make D Bell expendable when you can sign him for a reasonable amount and draft a LT in the 2nd to 4th round range?
We should look for one more stud defensive player either on the DL or at LB.
Jonathan Martin is good i’m sure but even the best LT in the game didn’t come from the 1st round. The last one we took Mike Williams eehh don’t need another pick like that
because the team whiffed almost 10 years ago on a tackle prospect
They should stay away from one?
Come on.
The score dictated they pass
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 8, 2012 4:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
if that was the case we shouldn’t be taking a QB (Losman), DT (McCargo), CB (McKelvin), DE/OLB (Maybin). Maybe even S (Whitner)
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 8, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
No
Way to go overboard with a comment…but no we are team on the brink.
If we are solid and have the chance to stay that way at the very least with D.Bell as our starter you take it.
You know what you are getting with D.Bell
Martin has proved nothing. Yet with no Bell it is guaranteed that he is going to Start at LT.
If we were getting Kahil out of USC then yes you go for him.
I’m also not saying don’t draft a LT even if we sign bell. I’m saying our season we shouldn’t be relying on just a rookie we shouldn’t be relying on just a veteran player now who has ability and injury issues.
It should be a combo of both.
We have no pass rush nor threat on the defensive side of the ball our 1st pick and higher instant starter picks should go there.
Then we draft a LT that we can bring on like a Nate Potter or Even Mike Adams in the 2nd round.
In chandler's case
you know even if we didn’t resign him which i hope we do….we wont have to nor will we need to spend a premium pick for his replacement.
Along with the fact we could find someone serviceable in free agency.
You say no to Martin because of the "unknown" factor
But yes to Kalil?
They arent much different in terms of pro potential…
The score dictated they pass
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 8, 2012 6:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
kalil
is the guy that demands a top 5 and Martin probably top 15 but more so on potential then kalil who is in the Joe Thomas and Jake Long type of category.
Again don’t put all your eggs in one basket.
We should bring on D.Bell have an injury clause. Start Bell and then draft an OL from the 2nd round on to the 4th. And bring them along to start for the future.
Instead of picking a player like Martin and handing them the starting job day 1.
That way we have two tackles for right now in D.Bell and Pears and two future tackles capable of starting Hairston and our draft pick. Injuries happen and worst comes to worse.
Tackles can always be guards just like Nix and Gailey have stated. Guards can’t usually become Tackles or shouldn’t be. But Andy L. is a freak.
do you see Martin ever going before Kalil
answer that question and really tell me if there is no difference between their potential in the nfl
Best in the game right now?
Joe Thomas and Jake Long are the ones that come to mind. Both were drafted in the top 3 picks of the draft.
Now if you mean all-time, that’s another thing to think about.
"Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin." - stetzwebs
No I meant Bryan
Why pay a TE decent money when he wont even be used?
The score dictated they pass
by norcaliangelsfan on Feb 8, 2012 4:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Athelticism
I ve posted this a couple of times at other positions. But they need to get more athleticism out of the TE position. Chandler is not a difference maker, and therefore signing him to an average contract makes no sense to me. That money should be paid to a player with great potential or go to a low average salary player. Its an incredibly inefficient use of resources/salary cap to pay middling players average salaries.
I think I get what you’re saying, but I’m still sort of confused. If he’s not a difference-maker, doesn’t an average salary make sense? What does “low average salary” mean? Aren’t “middling” and “average” synonymous?
I’m not trying to be a nit-picking jerk; I just want to make sure I’m understanding your point. What I think you’re saying is that Chandler should be paid less than average, and that you don’t think he’s average and has a low ceiling, so you’d rather see that money go to a nobody with high upside (like, say, Fendi Onobun) or spent on a better player.
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by Brian Galliford on Feb 8, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Average salary
is based on what I thought you or someone else posted that he is looking for. His current salary is 1.2 million. If he wants a raise to 2.0-3.0 million (cap hit wise), I think that’s about what he is worth (i.e. average salary for a starting TE). His ceiling is an average starting TE.
However, I think its inefficient to pay average players their “worth” or average salaries. As a team, I think the best thing is to pay top players high figures. Scott Chandler is a great player/bargain at 1.2 million dollars. Anything higher and he loses a lot of his value. He’s an average player (maybe) making below average salary. I think we can find a player who can fill his role at a low price.
Just look at our salary cap and NE salary cap structure. Look at how many players (esp veterans) in the middle of our cap are below/average players. Its terribly inefficient.
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/cap-hit/new-england-patriots/
Holy smokes!
I looked at our cap hits.
Mcgee 6 mill?
Yucky.
Lots of other 3-4 million yuckies too!
"My new cat just farted on my lap. Smells like Bills football." BG.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Feb 9, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
Of Chandler, Scott and Bell
I think as long as we resign two out of the three at the right price we will be alright. Not one particular player is that much better than another, but we shouldn’t lose a group of known commodities that we actually think are pretty good. Even if you don’t think they are that good, they are decent, and we have bigger fish to fry in developing a non-pathetic pass rush, etc.
Chix needs to show some genuine improvement this year, and they can’t if they spend the off season making lateral moves to replace decent players with other decent players like we always do.
golden age for tight end's
Scott Chandler all day enough said
by #1billsfan on Feb 8, 2012 4:28 PM EST via mobile reply actions
TEs
My problem with that thought process is if you look around the league at the top TEs you have guys like; Gronk, Hernandez, Graham, Gonzalez, Finley, Gates etc.
Chandler doesn’t have many similarities to those guys. He’s only utilized in the red zone and doesn’t cause significant match-up problems (at least not the way we utilize him)
Until that changes Bell has to be the pick here. We saw what injuries can do to the offensive line last year, we need depth!
Bell; not close either
I’m surprised at the results. The odds of finding an average TE are fairly good either in FA or a mid round draft choice The odds of finding an average LT are very low. There is a tremendous scarcity of quality of even average LT’s in the league. Media and bloggers in SF and NO can’t believe Staley and Bushrod made the pro bowl. I’ll go on a limb and say Bell will get $5MM plus in free agency out of desperation or perceived value.
There is a tremendous scarcity of quality of even average LT’s in the league.
Isn’t the same thing said about tight ends?
by MattRichWarren on Feb 9, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Bills blew it last year........
Ralph’s excess cap money is gone forever and we left a bunch on the table.
Should’ve signed Bell the day after he got hurt. Could’ve got a better deal.
Should’ve just done the Stevie thing.
Should’ve done Chandler’s contract too.
This would’ve left us with a BUNCH of money to go after free agents, and extend Fred, extend Andy, extend Urbik, extend Rinehart.
Now we are going to be caught in a money pinch.
"My new cat just farted on my lap. Smells like Bills football." BG.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Feb 8, 2012 5:53 PM EST reply actions
Do you know how much was left on the table?
I keep seeing people on this board say this same thing, but then go on to not say how much we didnt spend. I like this argument, but its hard to follow without statistical reasoning backing it up.
I also enjoyed my use of a double negative there. That was for Brian.
I've looked at a bunch of websites, and depending on which you find reputable......
……. looks like we left between 20 and 22 mill on the table.
Poof.
Gone forever.
This is an absolute travesty.
Here is just one article dated AFTER we signed Fitz (cause the big money doesn’t kick in until this year). http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/20/salary-cap-space-as-of-november-20/related/
I don’t understand why more folks are not furious about this. Absolute garbage for a team trying to build, keep its core players and grow.
"My new cat just farted on my lap. Smells like Bills football." BG.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Feb 8, 2012 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
Now I'm fuming............
Can’t let it go.
Why didn’t the dummies re-structure Steve’s contract at the beginning of the year?
Offer him a 4 year, 40 mill contract. 30 guaranteed. Payout goes like this:
2011 – 15 mil
2012 – 10 mil
2012 – 8 mil
2013 – 7 mil
A lot of money gets sucked up by our 2011 cap that is gone forever. The rest is very reasonable and manageable.
Why is that so hard?
Take the other 5 and throw it either at Fred or Bell immediately after they got hurt.
"My new cat just farted on my lap. Smells like Bills football." BG.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Feb 8, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Because giving Stevie that much money is absurd. :-)
by MattRichWarren on Feb 9, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
How about 4 years, 36 mill........ 25 guaranteed
2011 – 15 mil
2012 – 8 mil
2012 – 7 mil
2013 – 6 mil
Better?
"My new cat just farted on my lap. Smells like Bills football." BG.
by SERGEANT MAJOR THOR on Feb 9, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Poof.
Gone forever.
This is an absolute travesty.
I agree. Absurd to not address some of these FAs last year, when we also were absurdly under the cap. It is REQUIRED to be spent now, so they were waiting for a forced hand, and now are “in a pickle” from their own short-sighted-ness. These guys look more and more like they are flying by the seat of their pants. Disappointing, to say the very LEAST.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
You have no idea
What their plan is. No one does. You should reserve judgement until they show their hand. Last year is gone.
Let us see what they do this year. Did it ever occur to you that these players didn’t want to talk contract during the year? You assume no one thought of it. Unless you work for Buffalo or these men’s agents, you have no clue what has been said to anyone.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory, then slowly fade away in the antiquities of time.
You have no idea
What their plan is. No one does. You should reserve judgement until they show their hand. Last year is gone.
Yeah, there is probably no need to speculate… on a blog site.
Did it ever occur to you that these players didn’t want to talk contract during the year? You assume no one thought of it.
So you are suggesting that in the two years that Nix and Chan have been here, they have “planned ahead”? Because I disagree. If they had- they would have signed these guys before they produced, because the price tag would have been lower. Instead, they start them, they produce, and…. command more money, that we don’ t want to pay, apparently.
You also have no clue. That much seems obvious to me. The fact is- these guys are two years in, and the only thing we can be sure of, is we haven’t improved in record from DJ era, we have traded 1st rounders for 4th rounders, and are for some reason apprehensive to sign our proven talent… and now are switching schemes “mid-regime”. These moves are questionable to those of us that are unwilling to be blind admirers. Actions speak louder than words, and their actions are contradictory to things they said, such as “signing our core players”. Instead we resign kickers, and full backs we don’t use, hand Fitz a contract he hasn’t really yet to earn, and Kelsay money that dictates he is one of the best out there, when he hasn’t managed much more than 5 sacks in a year, well, ever.
So while none of us “KNOW” their plans, that doesn’t mean we can’t speculate on them. While none of “know” their thoughts, we can surely attempt to surmise them. ORRR………….. we can just drink the koolaid, and accept that “everything is going according to plan” and that it will all just work out famously, and that these guys are among the best in the league, even though Nix has never been a GM, Chan has never been a HC, and each has had questionable decisions through the course of their time with the team. So- i guess, we can just agree to disagree, or you know, discuss things on a blog site.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
as an aside
perhaps you can leave your personal issues with me aside, and comment on the fact that all i did, was agree with Sarge’s comment. If you don’t agree, provide some reasoning why you think it isn’t an issue. Something maybe a touch more elaborate than “because I say so.” Because as we already noted: you don’t know any more than the rest of us, and I would argue, you haven’t demonstrated the ability to consider things outside of your opinion, at least in the limited dealings we have had thus far.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
I don't have personal issues with you or anyone
I just don’t get what talking about spilled milk does. They chose not to extend them. WE have no idea why. Maybe they don’t think a marginally average TE, a brittle LT, and a WR that wants more then he is worth is worth it.
You can’t sign everyone to any contract they want.
If you want to write
Absurd to not address some of these FAs last year, when we also were absurdly under the cap. It is REQUIRED to be spent now, so they were waiting for a forced hand, and now are "in a pickle" from their own short-sighted-ness. These guys look more and more like they are flying by the seat of their pants. Disappointing, to say the very LEAST.
then aren’t I, or anyone allowed to refute that by speaking that we don’t know their plan. Give them a chance to prove themselves.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory, then slowly fade away in the antiquities of time.
WE have no idea why.
doesn’t mean we can’t speculate on why.
Maybe they don’t think a marginally average TE, a brittle LT, and a WR that wants more then he is worth is worth it.
and you apparently share in this assessment. I do not.
Give them a chance to prove themselves.
In all fairness, I have given them 2 full years to prove themselves, and they have yet to show me all that much. They show me we will overpay veterans, and not use them, but we won’t (yet) pay players who ranked among the top of the league in their positions prior to Fitzpatricks OBVIOUS slump- and I think it is fair to question this. In week 6 Chandler and Gronkowski were tied with TD receptions for a TE. Fred Jackson was a top 5 running back. Steve Johnson to me, has a pretty decent argument with having had a record breaking season, to follow up his entirely competitive season from last year. In my estimation they have “proved THEMSELVES” and there is little reason to not pay them. Other than being cheap, other than trying to low ball guys (as we have consistently, maybe because of our archaic owner), and I just am literally on the edge of complete intolerance for their borderline ineptitude. You don’t have to be. But, if you continue to just “give them the benefit of the doubt” with no evidence as to why, and mounting evidence as to why not, then some might question your judgement. I mean, if a heroin addict overdoses on heroin 5 times, I guess you can believe that rehab has done its job time number 5, and that a number 6 won’t happen- but if that addict dies, after OD number 6- I probably would be the guy who said “I told you so.” Because, past failure is certainly not any indicator of future success. That is something I say regularly, and really truly believe to be accurate. Of course there are exceptions. But, that doesn’t mean we should come to expect the exception to be the rule. So far, these guys have not proven effective in a number of ways, including and not exclusive to player personnel, and providing the fanbase with what it wants. Was I one who “outcried against the trading of Lynch, or Evans?” Nope. Saw it coming. In retrospect, they probably should have got more for Lynch (which I said at the time) and probably got more than Evans might be worth, to another team. So, that was a wash, regarding 1st round picks. That is the full extent of moves that I feel weren’t negative, other than draft picks. The rest of the re-signings, FAs (oops- Barnett. He was a wash/upgrade to Poz)…. coaching staff to this point… all of these things I have questioned, and for good reason. I am waiting for that baby, who should now be a toddler, and even as someone without any kids- i think i might be a grandparent before these guys can deliver on that claim, especially when they reverse course, and fail to do the things they said they would do. The ONLY thing we got was bigger, but bigger didn’t equal better, now did it? Our defense was just as bad, maybe worse, than anything we fielded in the Jauron era, and the offense wasn’t good enough to do much to offset that, for what, 8 games straight? We have some serious issues, and looking forward, we have a number of ways to improve. But that doesn’t mean that past mistakes won’t continue to bite us in the butt in making future decisions. It has already begun.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
by ThaRealTruth on Feb 9, 2012 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
not to mention the discussion was regarding the salary cap that has already passed us by, that could have been used
BEFORE THE SEASON EVEN BEGAN. That would make the “during the season” comment irrelevant, and therefore, useless.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
Chan has never been a HC,
sure has – Dallas
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
touche.
i forgot. probably because i was what, 12? and that lasted how long? oh yeah, 2 years and then canned. Maybe it was a mistake on Jones’ part. Maybe not. It doesn’t mean I have any faith in the things I have seen so far. He seems to be overwhelmed. Maybe because of staff deficiencies that are since corrected. We will see.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
by ThaRealTruth on Feb 10, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
you were 18 – and admittedly switching from being a Dallas fan to a Bills fan – so you get a pass. Maybe.
I love this plan! I'm excited to be a part of it! LET'S DO IT! - Venkman
by J2 on Feb 10, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
lol
fair enough. or i could chalk up memory issues to other things, because, I DID know that, I just forgot. And, I was really only a Dallas fan until 1996-97 (graduation-ish). I did, follow the Bills just as closely during that time, though I admit, that I didn’t follow ANY team as closely as I do the Bills over the last 10 years. I have already admitted that I was an Aikman/Smith fan. I am still proud to have recognized HOF play, at an early age.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
by ThaRealTruth on Feb 10, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
so actually, since i graduated at 17
i stopped being a fan, AS Chan became the coach. That is really interesting to me right now. Maybe the reason I stopped being a fan, was because of the style change? I really don’t recall much from that era, as my focus was way more on personal life/college/working etc.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
by ThaRealTruth on Feb 10, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
To further the story
The owner of the ’boys says that he made a mistake firing Chan.
I'd rather go out in a blaze of glory, then slowly fade away in the antiquities of time.
Maybe it was a mistake on Jones’ part.
like i said…. I knew about it. I just forgot.
ABAYARDE IS NOSTRADAMUS JUST WATCH WE WILL NOT YIEALD TO NOBODY YOUR SOUL WE WILL TAKE
by ThaRealTruth on Feb 10, 2012 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Bell
We cannot go into the season with Hairston given the starting position.
Chandler is huge, he is a great RedZone target and i dont think is should be difficult to keep him here. Im not sure many teams are hurting enough at TE to pay him alot after one good year. Even after signing him, a athletic TE should be a top priority
"The Buffalo Bills have just exploded all over the Cincinnati Bangles"
-Steve Tasker-
I voted for Scott Chandler
For one simple reason: he’s the first legit receiving TE the Bills have had since, well, our new TE coach [Metz] played here. I don’t wanna wait that long for the next one . . .
Yes, Bell improved, but do we really want to throw big money at somebody that may not last the entire season? Aren’t we doing enough of that with Wood?
.
"If You Ain't a Bill I Don't Give a Fxck Bout Ya!! Most Disrespected Team in NFL! I Always feel Disrespected! I'm All In!" -- Steve Johnson
P.S.
I like Bryan Scott but he’s not getting any younger; Byrdman, Wilson, and Searcy are a good enough trio at S.
Certain people should not even be on this list — namely:
Parrish
Martin
Hagan
Davis
Torbor
Corner
.
"If You Ain't a Bill I Don't Give a Fxck Bout Ya!! Most Disrespected Team in NFL! I Always feel Disrespected! I'm All In!" -- Steve Johnson
anybody but
Rayner.
"The Buffalo Bills have just exploded all over the Cincinnati Bangles"
-Steve Tasker-
by billsoferie on Feb 8, 2012 7:39 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Hey guys....got a tech question
I just bought an ipad2. Is there a way to use the “z” feature?
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
not much help, Joe
not that I’ve found…It’s frustrating.
"a play in which nothing happens, that yet keeps audiences glued to their seats". -Vivian Mercier - a description of Samuel Beckett's "Waiting for Godot"
According to Beckett, Godot was a metaphor for the Buffalo Bills :-)
agreed......seems like they could put in some kind of "hot keys" drop down menu
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there." - John Wooden
"Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances." - Sun Tzu
Sounds like the Bills Personnel guys will be doing draft stuff in prep for the combine for the next few weeks
according to Chris Brown. I bet nothing get’s done on the UFA or RFA front for at least the end of February and probably the first week of March. That will be cutting it close to the UFA deadline.
.... I voted for Rayner.
I haven’t trolled in a long time, I needed to get my troll on :P
Seriously, Bell and Chandler top the list in that order.
If Ryan Fitzpatrick does not take the Bills to the Big Game, ever, I will run through Harvard's campus wearing a Yale jersey. I am that sure. Or that crazy.
I don’t really see how Chandler could be that much of a priority to people. He was good last year, but hardly irreplaceable, especially in FA. I think his success was as much a result of scheme as anything else, and he’s not a great blocker.
However, having a good OT group is essential. Bell, even if he’s just brought in to be the swing guy and Hairston is the future, needs to be retained.
Ideally of course I’d like them both back, even if we look to FA to upgrade the TE position (which we should do).
"Slowly all the roles we act out become our identity. And in the end we are what we pretend to be." - Jerry Cantrell.
The 10 picks in april
should trump about everyone on the list, but if the $ are right Chandler is a productive starter that played hurt and seemed to have a good raport with Fitz. Id consider Roscoe cause he can make plays, but if your not on the field every Sunday your expendable.
"Will&Work2Win"coach Karma420
by Blood, sweat & Win on Feb 9, 2012 11:10 AM EST reply actions
Chandler...
I would have no qualms with Bell but his history of injuries scares me off. He is what he is and that is injury prone…
How many remember Jona Jennings a talented LT that was always hurt while playing for Buffalo, he left for the Niners and had the same problems. Lots of potential but lots of injuries. Bell is the same type of player to me—Lots of potential, good when he plays but always seems to miss games. If he gets a big contract from Buffalo it will end up being dead money while he spends his time on IR…
.
Football is like life - it requires perseverance, self-denial, hard work, sacrifice, dedication and respect for authority.
Vince Lombardi
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