Final Buffalo Bills Needs List
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It took this community a week, but we've finally accomplished our first goal of the off-season: assembling a full needs list for the Buffalo Bills. We've had some fantastic discussions, ranging from philosophical approaches to potential player acquisitions to actual player acquisitions. It's been a fun ride, and it's only the first step of many to come that we'll take this off-season.
This list is liquid, meaning that if you continue to have issues with where certain positions stand, feel free to make your arguments heard. We'll continue to tweak this list throughout the off-season, using the list as a reference point for future activities we'll be taking part in. For now (minus letters - numbers only), here's the first edition of the Buffalo Rumblings Community Needs List:
1. Defensive Tackle: Along with wide receiver, this position received the most consistent support community-wide as a top need for the Bills. The team needs to add a bigger tackle with strength to help shore up what has been a porous run defense the past two seasons.
2. Wide Receiver: Really, WR and DT could have been placed 1-2 because these positions received similar support; the community seems to be more defensive-minded, however, so WR slides down a spot. Obviously, the Bills need to find a #2 option (preferably with some size) to take pressure off of Lee Evans, help develop Trent Edwards and potentially solve some of the team's red zone woes.
3. Defensive End: It's a copycat league, and the New York Giants showed the world how to beat the New England Patriots: get pressure from your front four on Tom Brady. Buffalo will never be a playoff team until they can at least compete with the Patriots. We need a much more consistent pass rush to do just that.
4. Outside Linebacker: Received plenty of high rankings as well. The consensus here (and most everywhere else) is that the team needs a serious upgrade over Keith Ellison, who would be far better suited to a backup role. The team must also boost depth with several free agents in '08 (Angelo Crowell is also a free agent in '09). A player with great speed and coverage skills will be targeted.
5. Tight End: The most inconsistently backed up position of the top five after the team signed journeyman Teyo Johnson. Clearly, Trent Edwards favors throwing to his tight ends, and the Bills have not had consistently good production from the position since the days of Jay Riemersma. A pass-catching athlete with YAC ability would be a godsend for this offense.
6. Cornerback: The team may have some solid depth at the position, but none of those players - with the possible exclusion of Terrence McGee - have proven that they can play consistently in their roles. Jabari Greer, Kiwaukee Thomas and Ashton Youboty all would be best utilized in a reserve role. Greer had a break-out '07 season, so corner is pushed down the priority list a bit, but the team would be smart to draft a corner with some size and toughness to better fit their scheme. (Or, you could just develop already, Ashton.)
7. Interior O-Line: Melvin Fowler is set to become a free agent next off-season, and depth (Jason Whittle, who is a free agent, and Duke Preston) is sketchy at best. Drafting a player with potential that can play guard and center would work wonders for a team that needs tough depth inside and likes to cut back numbers-wise along the line.
8. Wide Receiver: Wideout makes its second appearance on the list. The consensus seems to be that adding just one wide receiver may be bad business, considering the free agency of Sam Aiken and the somewhat-agreed-upon departure (community-based, not reality-based) of Peerless Price. Adding a developmental prospect with special teams ability would be a smart move, hedging the team's bets with free agent-to-be Lee Evans.
9. Offensive Tackle: Kirk Chambers is sketchy depth at best, and it seems unlikely that starters Jason Peters and Langston Walker will combine for 31 starts between them again. Knock on wood, Bills fans. In a draft class that seems to be loaded with solid tackle prospects, it would be a good move for the team to, at a minimum, bring in a talented rookie to compete on the edges with Chambers and Patrick Estes.
10. Fullback: Even after the free agent signing of Darian Barnes to a six-year deal, fullback remains this high on the list. With Barnes, Jonathan Evans and Derek Schouman on board, I'm not sure if this position gets further addressed at all; still, the thought of adding a young, physical run blocker in front of Marshawn Lynch is tempting.
11. Linebacker: The aforementioned lack of depth at linebacker needs to be addressed. Assuming the Bills add a weak-side starter, the team will be left with Ellison, John DiGiorgio and Coy Wire as its reserves. All of these players have experience; one of the team's free agents (Mario Haggan and Josh Stamer) will likely be re-signed for special teams purposes. Still, it wouldn't hurt to bring in some young talent to push those depth vets.
12. Strong Safety: The team is set with Donte Whitner as its starter, but backup Bryan Scott is a free agent, and John Wendling is more of a specialist than a regular defender. If the team doesn't re-sign Scott, look for a low-priced free agent or a low-round draft pick to be added.
13. Quarterback: Makes the list only because of the trade demand of J.P. Losman. If Losman is a Bill in '08, the only way this position is addressed is with a developmental player to challenge Gibran Hamdan.
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Comments
To the WR lovers...
Is this because he may only be a one trick pony? My thinking is that it is. To me, all it seems he is capable of doing is running fly patterns, which is why he was so adamant for Losman to remain the starter. He certainly doesn't go over the middle, and he's not a YAC kind of guy.
If that's what you WR lovin' folk think as well, then by all means do I now understand your thirst for another WR.
by krytime on Feb 6, 2008 2:18 PM EST 0 recs
If it was up to me...
by Nick BensalemPA on
Feb 6, 2008 3:10 PM EST
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As you stated
- Dick Jauron has closed the door on an upgrade or even a competition at the position for which we have the most glaring need. (Quarterback)
- we're handicapping ourselves with Trent Edwards and Turk Schonert.
by Fort Worth on
Feb 6, 2008 3:33 PM EST
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On Evans
by Kumario! on
Feb 6, 2008 10:01 PM EST
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I still don't get the hate for Edwards.
From the first time I saw Edwards as a Bill, I noticed something. And trust me, I was looking for flaws - I hated the pick; I was a JP fan.
Give Edwards a chance. Tell me, you didn't see anything good about him at all last year? If you're so sure he's not the answer, then what would you do to improve the position?
by krytime on Feb 6, 2008 3:23 PM EST 0 recs
Edwards
by Nick BensalemPA on
Feb 6, 2008 3:43 PM EST
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RE: Quarterback Improvement
Everyone likes to use the Giants-Patriots Super Bowl to reinforce their ideas. Eli Manning has nearly twice the playing experience as Losman, yet he just recently began to show some promise. Now it appears that the Giants could have their franchise quarterback for years to come.
Why was Manning given such a longer leash than Losman?
Comparing Losman vs Manning is different than comparing Losman vs Edwards because Losman clearly has better physical talent than Edwards.
I mentioned this during a game thread a few weeks ago while watching Pittsburgh and Roethlisberger:
With the exception of size, I think that Roethlisberger and Losman have many similarities (good ones and bad ones). I think that Losman is capable of putting up numbers similar to what Roethlisberger has this season, and could make the Pro Bowl like Roethlisberger did. The difference is that Pittsburgh has so many better players than Buffalo, particularly a lot more offensive playmakers. Roethlisberger and Losman have similar strengths and weaknesses. Their strengths can be maximized and their weaknesses can be minimized or masked with several playmakers. For example, while Losman locks onto Evans for a play instead of going through his progressions, Roethlisberger knows that he can get a play from multiple players. The fact that Pittsburgh's defense can get off the field (as opposed to the 12-play, time-consuming drives typically yielded by Buffalo's defense), helps Roethlisberger out as well.
I'm not saying that Losman is a great quarterback or that he doesn't have weaknesses. I'm just saying that in watching Pittsburgh and Roethlisberger tonight (and throughout this season), Losman could have performed similarly to Roethlisberger if he was put in that situation.
by Fort Worth on
Feb 6, 2008 3:53 PM EST
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Wait a minute; this has to be JP.
What do you define by talent? I'll bet it's just arm strength and forty times. Edwards clearly has an advantage in the intangible department.
And Big Ben, and Eli, have the ability to read through their progressions, and get to other WRs. How many times do we see JP focus on one guy?
Did Eli or Big Ben win their SBs on their own? No, they were the beneficiaries of great defensive performances. They both just managed not to lose the game.
Losman, more so than Edwards, can lose those games. Didn't Losman have an average of more than two negative plays per game last year than Edwards? (Sacks, fumbles, ints)
Maybe Eli got a longer free pass because of what they gave up to get him. And what, was the "round mound of touchdown" going to take the job away from a "Manning" in NYC?
Trent came in, and outplayed Losman, and I'll admit, barely. But that's in his first year, compared to Losman having "seen it all," as he says. The most improvement in a player is done between his first year, and second. After four years, Losman has hit his plateau here, and while that might not be his fault due to the way the previous management bungled the beginning of his career, it is still a fact.
Geez dude. Get over the fact that the authentic Losman jersey you bought isn't worth as much now. Just move on.
by krytime on
Feb 6, 2008 4:51 PM EST
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No, This Is Not J.P. Losman
I think intangibles are characteristics such as heart, competitiveness, toughness, intelligence, work ethic, dedication, leadership, and confidence.
Many fans say that Trent Edwards has several "advantages" over J.P. Losman: pocket presence, progression reads, more consistent short/intermediate accuracy, quick release, and poise. How important is pocket presence? If Losman's pocket presence is not good enough, can it be improved? The difference in their progression reads may simply be that Edwards is more disiplined and Losman is pressing, trying to make a play (sticking on his first or second read too long, by the time he gets to his third read it's too late, etc.). Losman's inconsistent short/intermediate accuracy may be due to mechanical flaws (footwork, not keeping his shoulders square to the line of scrimmage, etc.), which are correctable. Yes, Edwards does have a quicker release than Losman, but not by a significant margin. Poise is a wash. I do not view Losman's fiery, competitive demeanor as a negative or that he lacks poise. Overall, I think that most of Edwards' advertised "advantages" over Losman are inflated.
On the other hand, my primary concern with Edwards is his upside. Edwards obviously has a very high floor, but how high is his ceiling? Whether or not he can ascend is directly dependent on his talent. Talent is something you are born with; you have it or you don't. Quite frankly, I question his arm strength. A lot of fans think that arm strength is only about throwing the deep ball, which is incorrect. Edwards can not consistently hit the deep out, throw from the opposite hashmark to the sidelines, or into tight windows 15 yards downfield. For example, I do not believe that Edwards could have made that winning throw to Peerless in the Houston game or the sideline throw to Roscoe in the Jacksonville game, as Losman did last season. Unlike Losman, Edwards needs a clear pocket so that he can step into his throws in order to be on time with his passes (see interception in second Jets game). I am not sure that Edwards can force defenses to defend every area of the field. Also, I question Edwards' durability and performance in bad weather.
The performance at quarterback has a domino affect on everything, including the running game, and not limited to just the passing game (scheme, execution, playcalling, teammates, other phases, etc.). If opposing defenses do not feel that they will be challenged downfield, they will crowd the line of scrimmage and stuff the running game. With Edwards at quarterback, will Marshawn Lynch ever see the end of eight defenders in the box? I am not sure that he can make defenses pay for stacking the box. Furthermore, if defenses do not feel threatened downfield, there will also be more defenders closer to the line to stop the short/intermidiate passing game and to blitz.
Additionally, I believe that football should be played with aggressiveness in all phases of the game. For the most part, I do not think that playing conservative, passive, and safe will produce consistent winning football. You must want to win, to win. Edwards naturally plays conservative and Losman naturally plays aggressive. I love Losman's cold blood, go-for-the-throat, and killer instinct mentality. It seems to me like Losman plays with confidence, fire, and a swagger. On the other hand, it seems like Edwards plays with fear.
For better or worse, the Bills have completely hitched their wagon to Trent Edwards and promoted Turk Schonert to be their offensive coordinator. I expect Schonert to incorporate his background in designing the offense, while maximizing Edwards' strengths and minimizing his weaknesses. This means West Coast offense. Due to the neccessity to generate big, explosive plays (gains of 20+ yards) in the passing game, YAC is more important in an Edwards/West Coast offense than a Losman/Vertical offense. When you make the change from Losman/Vertical to Edwards/West Coast, YAC becomes a necessity instead of a convenience. The YAC requirement is another example of how Edwards' shortcomings may be limiting the offense and the entire team.
By the way, I've never owned or worn a Losman jersey. Am I Losman's friend or relative? No. Am I Losman's enabler or in denial? Possibly. Am I a sucker for elite talent, toughness, and competitiveness? Absolutely. Whether you favor Edwards, Losman, or acquiring a new quarterback, I will say this: It makes me sick to think that the Bills may be choosing the easy way out when they could possibly have something much better.
I am sticking with Losman because I believe in him. I have reasons to believe in him and I cannot just snap my fingers and undo that reasoning simply because another quarterback shows up. I am sticking to what I believe in. I hope you can at least respect that.
Like I mentioned previously, I could be totally wrong about all of this. For the Bills' sake, I hope I am wrong. As a Bills fan, I just want the Bills to be the best. And in my opinion, that all starts at quarterback.
by Fort Worth on
Feb 6, 2008 6:39 PM EST
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I have total respect for your opinion on our QB.
I'm just glad we didn't face up on a site like this...
me: I'm right, your wrong, you suck.
you: I suck, but with your mouth.
me: Your momma.
As far as Edwards vs Losman goes, I could easily come back with catch phrases like "time of possession" or "Bill Walsh" or anything else you've already heard. But I won't, at least for now.
You didn't answer one question though. What is Losman's trade worth?
by krytime on
Feb 6, 2008 7:04 PM EST
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Thanks
To answer your question: This offseason, I think Losman's trade value is a 2008 3rd round draft pick. Then again, what do I know?
Regarding time of possession, I think scoring points is ultimately more important. There are situations in a game where ball control is important, or you are trying to maintain a lead in the 4th quarter and you need to kill the clock. Otherwise, making big explosive plays and getting chunk yardage, while taking less time, are almost always a good thing (and more preferable). Advantage: Losman.
I respect Bill Walsh and he unquestionably knew a lot about football. I am guessing that you are referring to his high regard for Edwards. We all know that the draft is not an exact science, and Walsh was probably not much different from a lot of other general managers, coaches, and scouts in the league, in this regard (when it comes to projecting NFL player success). I take his evaluation with a grain of salt. If I remember correctly, Walsh was the same guy that advocated quarterback Jim Druckenmiller to the 49ers. You win some, you lose some. It seems like everyone gets their share of both.
I am not saying that Walsh was right or wrong about Edwards. The proof is in the pudding, and that's long term. In Buffalo?
One more thing: I can't pretend like 2006 never happend and that Losman is no longer capable of making the multiple explosive and clutch plays that he did in 2006.
by Fort Worth on
Feb 6, 2008 8:00 PM EST
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If that is correct...
How about the Giants first possession in this years's SB? Keeping Brady to one drive a quarter isn't a bad way to start a game now, is it? That drive was more "Edwards" than it was "Losman."
Let me say again - Losman was one of my favorite Buffalo athletes ever. His work for buffalolives.org won me over (my sister and I participated, and let me say, it was a rewarding experience), and the way he represented the city was in a word, awesome.
I just don't think he's got the head to be an NFL QB. And, I'm not alone. If a guy is a worthy starter in the NFL, surely he's worth more than a 3rd rounder. You have him pegged as such; so obviously...
by krytime on
Feb 6, 2008 8:59 PM EST
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Splitting Hairs...
In my attempt to look through the eyes and sit in the minds of other interested teams and how much they might value Losman on the open market, I believe the Bills could receive a 2008 3rd round draft pick in return.
by Fort Worth on
Feb 6, 2008 9:30 PM EST
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did you mean
meaning not the draft coming up in a few months, but the draft in a year and a few months.
That is a great idea and I never considered it. The Bills don't need the draft picks this year anyways. You might even be able to get a 3rd and a 5th in 09 or maybe an 09 3rd and an 08 6th. Teams seem to be pretty shortsighted about that stuff. Look at the way teams trade away future first rounders just to move up 15 or 20 picks.
I think Losman is worth a third round pick talent wise, I just didn't believe a team currently had a situation where it would make sense to give up a third round pick. Atlanta would be smart to find two new quarterbacks. They could certainly afford to give up an 09 third and draft one in the first or second this year.
by kaisertown on
Feb 7, 2008 12:08 AM EST
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haha
as for edwards, we can see what happens this year and then move on (again) if necessary. sounds like fun.
by jmorris0823 on
Feb 6, 2008 9:54 PM EST
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Druckenmiller
by sireric on
Feb 7, 2008 7:20 AM EST
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my bad
i went to undergrad at the University of Richmond and made numerous trips to VT and picked up the story there. hearsay and bad form. i get about 5 minutes a day to catch up with rumblings and it shows, especially with the new influx of posting as of late.
by jmorris0823 on
Feb 7, 2008 7:39 AM EST
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Don't sweat it
by sireric on
Feb 7, 2008 7:56 AM EST
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QB arguement
by hilliarddavid on
Feb 7, 2008 4:59 PM EST
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I happen to agree, Fort
One may say Eli stayed in the game for four years only because they had Pillsberry Doughboy behind him. Well that's an awful argument. The Giants simply did not upgrade their backup because they believed in Manning.
Look at Manning's situation in NY. Since he was drafted, for better and much, MUCH worse, he continued to start every single game. In many of those games, including this year's game against us, he played worse than what would be tolerable to the majority of Bills fans. (Which really isn't saying much haha.)
Simply put, if JP went to the G-Men and got the time and patience they afforded to Eli, it is VERY possible that he could have, not should have, duplicated the success if not done better earlier.
I just don't want to see him leave and light it up elsewheres.
TE's attack is predicated on YAC results similar to Green Bay. We do not have that WR set at all. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if we had the worst YAC in the league. Now that's something that can be addressed, but it's not as simple as drafting a 6-5 guy round 1. This team has just drastically adjust to accommodate TE.
by Kumario! on
Feb 7, 2008 1:58 PM EST
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fellas
We can have all the pass rushers we want, run-stuffers and all that. At the end of the day it comes down to QB play. Not to say that defense can't be argued to be #1, but for once I would love to see a QB in Buffalo be legit enough to get us to the playoffs. And that is why TE/WR is top of my list. The quicker we get guys like that the quicker Trent develops and that is better for all involved.
So I hope the front office realizes that. Robert Royal/Michael Gaines and Schouman/Teyo Johnson are not going to cut it. Price is awful and Reed is a 4th WR. The talent there is so low by NFL standards.
MY CRY IS FOR A TE AND VETERAN WR. GOT TO HAPPEN!
by MARVelous on Feb 6, 2008 3:41 PM EST 0 recs
WR
by jjm19672000 on
Feb 7, 2008 2:17 PM EST
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def tackles ????
Free Agents of interest:
Albert HAynesworth hs stated he does not want a FRanchise Tag on him. He wants a long-term deal or he would rahter go home to be closer to his family in Los Angeles.
Corey Wiliams GB a bit small but will he highly sought after.
Brian Young NO. recieved a neck would. Charecter in question.
Bryant Young SF. will retire
here is a list of Def. Tackles from draftdaddy.com
- Tommy Kelly Oakland injured reserve
- Isaac Sopoaga San Francisco
- Ian Scott Chicago
- Ethan Kelley Cleveland
- Kindal Moorehead Carolina
- Randy Starks Tennessee
- Spencer Johnson Minnesota
- Damione Lewis Carolina
- William Joseph N.Y. Giants injured reserve
- Travis Kirschke Atlanta
- Ted Washington Cleveland
- Tim Anderson Pittsburgh Steelers
- Ryan Boschetti Washington
- Ryan Sims Tampa Bay
- Dan Klecko Indianapolis
- Nick Eason Pittsburgh
most believe
DT patrick Ellis will be gone
DT DT Kentwan Ballmer, North Carolina
Draftdaddy.com
Ballmer showed up stacked at the Senior Bowl weigh-ins and could be an ideal 3-4 two gap player
but he should be is listed as a late 1st round pick....
Should the bills drop down in the draft pick up extra picks too grab him or get the best DE available at 11th??????
I like them taking DE
DE Calais Campbell, Miami
DE Vernon Goulston will be gone unless we move up!!!
DE Derrick Harvey, Florida could be a surprize!!!!
im here all night! `
by sabreonekenobi on Feb 7, 2008 4:41 PM EST 0 recs
process of elimination
Haynesworth has issues, and will be expensive
Tommie Kelly has a history off injuries, could help if healthy
Isaac Sopoaga, love this guy but I don't think S.F. lets him get away
Scott, Kelley, Moorehead, no thanks
Starks could be a real option
Lewis is under the radar, he's not a run stuffer but a real good vet who is familiar with the cover 2
Johnson, Joseph,Kirschke,Boschetti add to the no thanks list
Washington and Anderson, well we've done that before
Sims is a huge bust
Klecko, would be an interesting sign, but he doesn't fit what we need at the position
Eason? didn't he used to be the Pats QB? (just kidding) no thanks list
Draft wise Both SEDRICK Ellis and Glenn Dorsey will be gone.
That leaves Williams, Starks, Lewis, and Sopoaga (if he hits free agency)
by sireric on
Feb 7, 2008 5:51 PM EST
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