Battle at RCB Brewing in Buffalo

by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 9:01 AM EDT in Opinion Comment 51 comments

Greer, Youboty battle newcomer James to start (BuffaloBills.com)

First, a note - be sure to keep your browsers locked in to Mocking the Draft starting this morning, as the 2008 SB Nation NFL Mock Draft is under way.

With draft season approaching in full force, many fans of the Buffalo Bills have been discussing the possibility of their favorite team drafting a cornerback in the first round of the draft. With four cornerbacks (Leodis McKelvin, Mike Jenkins, Aqib Talib and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie) possibly representing the best value for the Bills when they choose at pick 11, such talk makes sense. When one takes a gander at Buffalo's roster, however, taking a cornerback doesn't make sense.

The free agent addition of CB William James, formerly of the Philadelphia Eagles and New York Giants, has plunged Buffalo into a three-way race for the starting right cornerback job opposite Terrence McGee. That gives the Bills four legitimate NFL cornerbacks, all with starting experience. Which cornerback should win the starting job in 2008? Let's meet the candidates:

#33 Jabari Greer - Greer was forced into a starting role last year after injuries to Jason Webster and Ashton Youboty. By and large, Greer's play was highly surprising - he finished seventh on the team with 45 tackles and intercepted two passes, good for a tie for second on the team. Size is his biggest knock, but Greer excels in man coverage and is consistently around the ball. With more experience, he could become the playmaker of Buffalo's secondary.

#26 Ashton Youboty - Youboty was elevated to the starting role last year immediately after Webster was injured in Week One, but an injury to Youboty forced him out of the lineup once more. He did not crack that lineup again until the final week of the season, when he intercepted a pass off of Donovan McNabb. Youboty made a serious charge to start late in the pre-season, but was beaten out by the veteran Webster. With a much more open competition this year, if Youboty can put together a strong training camp, he has the best physical gifts of any of these three players and may very well start.

FA William James - James, who was being pursued by other teams (Eagles, Texans), chose Buffalo because it gave him the best opportunity to start. A seven-year veteran, James' career has been highly inconsistent - in four seasons he's played in 12 games or more, but in the other three seasons, it's been five or less. He's injury-prone, but he's got skills - he started as a rookie for the Giants and had an excellent rookie campaign, and has started for the Giants and Eagles occasionally since injuries derailed his early promise. He's got great size (6'0", 200 pounds) and may be a boost to Buffalo's run defense on the edge.

These options may not be appealing to all Bills fans, but the team has three young talents with starting experience to choose from here. With that in mind, do we honestly expect Buffalo to draft a cornerback in the first round? I know I don't.

As for who should start, my vote is still for Greer. Youboty and James both have the size that Buffalo covets in their nickel cornerbacks (see Kiwaukee Thomas), and the Bills can't be without Greer's aggressive pass coverage style on passing downs. Playmaking is something the Bills need to do a lot more of in 2008, and Greer has the best chance of doing that. Of course, if Youboty has a great four games during the pre-season, I'd rather see him in the lineup - he was drafted for a reason, after all.

Thoughts on the cornerback position, who should start, and how this depth translates to the draft?

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Comments

Drafting a corner

I expect the Bills will draft a corner, I doubt however that it will be in the 1st round. Most teams, the Bills included, tend to keep 5 corners. Right now Dustin Fox is the 5th, and I don't expect that to be the case when the season starts(barring injury of course.)
There are a ton of corners in this draft who have graded out in the later rounds, who could help this team. I would look for one any time after the 4th.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agree

I'd bump it up to 3rd round, but yeah - we need a couple of starters with our first two picks. Did you have a preference as far as the current personnel go?

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by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

current personnel

I want to see Youboty win the starting job. to me James isn't any type of long term answer, and Greer I feel is a better nickel player.

If Youboty can develop into a capable starter, that '05 draft will start to look very strong.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoops

I meant '06 draft, must've forgot what year it was.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is because

you don't think we need a center as much as we do. After reading Ron in NM's posts, I had hoped you would see the light!!!

by Joe P. on Mar 31, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually...

... I'm working on reading those now. I've been so busy I haven't been able to catch up on the diaries as well as I'd like to - but I hear that they're well done. Perhaps my opinion is about to be swayed...

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by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Im with you Brian,

I'd like to see Greer be the starter until someone dethrones him.

Do you BILLieve?

by NYTXFAN on Mar 31, 2008 9:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I like Ashton

always have. Remember, he was projected as a first rounder. Nobody quite knows why he slipped, but he has tremendous ability. His injuries are concerning, but I have no doubt that if he can avoid them he will become a starter. I do believe this will be his last year to prove anything though. If he can't prove himself, the Bills will cut their losses.

I would also love to see the Bills take a corner early (first three rounds) but I don't think they will. They have more pressing needs (WR, TE, DE). I think they can try and pick up a guy with some raw talent in the 5th round like a Justin Tryon from Arizona St. or Chevis Jackson fro LSU.

by RabidBuffalo on Mar 31, 2008 10:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Why is McGee set?

Why would Greer be the only one eligible to lose his job? Did I miss when McGee became a shutdown CB? Greer is better in coverage and 2 inches taller than McGee. Although McGee may be the better tackler, that's all he's better at. His hands aren't good, and his stats were higher than Greer's because teams went after McGee all day long. Now with some experience behind him, I'd expect Greer to overtake McGee as out #1 before I'd expect him to lose HIS job. I don't understand this assumption that McGee's job should be safe, and not JG.

by Brainiac on Mar 31, 2008 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

McGee

has started for this team for three years. He should be helped out defensively if the team can find a way to keep him off the field on kick returns (though I still say he should be handling those duties in certain situations, he can't handle the load anymore).

Greer is listed at 5'11", but he's not that tall. Look at the two guys on film - Greer is a much smaller dude.

McGee's job is safe. He may not be the shutdown corner you want him to be, but he's experienced in this defense, makes plays (though he could make more), and is clearly the best corner on the team.

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by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

McGee

Given the fact that he's been the starter for the last, what 3 years? I think everyone simply assumes he will retain that position and I would be shocked if he wasn't there to start the year. That said, I'm never against pushing veterans and if Greer/Youboty proves to be better than McGee/Greer I would have no problem going that route. I don't see it happening however.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chicken or the egg?

You're implying that McGee's stats are higher because he was targeted more by the opposition, right? OK, maybe. But I highly doubt it. Isn't it more likely that has more to do with the fact that 9 times out of 10 he was lined up against the opposing team's No. 1, even in the zone coverage of the Cover 2?

I also seem to remember McGee coming up in support a lot as well; I could be wrong, my game-time analysis is usually "helped" by a couple Blues or Canadians (not hockey). But I don't recall Greer being around the pile in the same way.

Maybe Ron from NM can provide more of his incredible game analysis if he has spare time!

I'm the jolly little baker and you'll find me on the label of Kaufman's Rye Bread

by DCRumbler on Mar 31, 2008 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought

That the Bills line up their corners on the same side every play. I don't think they try to match up McGee with other team's top WR.

I do think you are right though that McGee is an aggressive tackler and that is how he compiled the better stats.

by kaisertown on Mar 31, 2008 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course that's the case

I am an idiot. I am about to bow out until training camp. At least I impress/annoying my girlfriend with my "knowledge."

I'm the jolly little baker and you'll find me on the label of Kaufman's Rye Bread

by DCRumbler on Apr 1, 2008 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just throwing this out there,

but how do people feel about PacMan Jones? Reportedly, the Titans want a 4th this year and another pick next year.

Personally, I wouldn't do it. I believe that Jones has had too many chances to change his life. A "change of scenery" doesn't really apply either, because most of his screwups didn't happen in Tennessee. He has tremendous talent, but I think you have to make a stand against people who believe that they have a right to act a fool because they can run fast.

Just wondering how other people feel.

by RabidBuffalo on Mar 31, 2008 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Pac-man

I'm not sure I would want him on the Bills if he offered to play for free.

Besides there aren't enough strip clubs in Buffalo for Joneses taste.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am with you sireric

Have you heard the interviews this guy has done? "Crack-man" Jones might as well hold up a neon sign that says, "I have not learned my lesson". Besides, even if he did, do you think the commish would be more likely to reinstate Jones for the Cowboys or the Bills?

by Joe P. on Mar 31, 2008 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let him go to the Cowboys

It's better that way, now all I need is Rodney Harrison (a.k.a. Mr. I don't hit before the whistle), and Brady to get traded there, and every player I can't stand will be lumped into one place. Makes it easy when you only have to hate one team.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You forgot

Chad Johnson. What a circus that would be. Can you imagine Johnson and T.O. both yelling a Romo that they were open on every play. Then he would have to go home and listen to Jessica's insights on the game. Poor Tony Romo!!!

by Joe P. on Mar 31, 2008 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jessica's insights

Someone should tell her to stop talking, just stand there and look pretty, don't speak!

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brain

Your the boss, but IMO that was pretty mild.

by Joe P. on Mar 31, 2008 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What?

Me? I didn't say anything in this part of the thread...

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by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A comment got deleted

sorry, I thought it was you.

by Joe P. on Mar 31, 2008 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh

That happens for some reason - I've had long-winded comments of my own nuked as well. Not sure why... and when it happens, it makes me want the new platform even more.

Create a free account to join in the discussion, Bills fans!

by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seen the new platform around

check out http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/ for a good look at the new platform.

I really like it.

by RabidBuffalo on Mar 31, 2008 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Glad to hear it

Though, I like this version better. Go Tribe!

Create a free account to join in the discussion, Bills fans!

by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Have you been

to the Mock the Draft site yet? I left a little comment to get the Fin fans going!!!

by Joe P. on Mar 31, 2008 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I did see that

Who would qualify? Desean Jackson?

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sounds about right

that would be the most logical illogical pick.

by Joe P. on Mar 31, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It'd be right up their alley

If Bill Parcells weren't there and Cam Cameron was. "DeSean Jackson comes from a great family, and you will will love it when he returns kickoffs and runs reverses..."

Create a free account to join in the discussion, Bills fans!

by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

To post there

do you have to make a new profile at the site?

by RabidBuffalo on Mar 31, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately, yes

It doesn't take long, though. And that process has been eradicated in the new platform - so when we switch over, you can claim all the accounts you have at any blog under one username. It's pretty boss.

Create a free account to join in the discussion, Bills fans!

by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gave you a hand

help stoke the flames a little.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought old people woke up early?

I guess no one in Miami wants to play.

by Joe P. on Mar 31, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please

They're called "scrip clubs," as Adam likes to say.

by krytime on Mar 31, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cornerback Question

Which cornerbacks on the Bills' roster have the ability to cover wide receivers (without safety help)?

How good do you want the Bills to be?

by Fort Worth on Mar 31, 2008 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Why does it matter?

We're predominantly a zone defense, Fort. I know you like players who can do everything, but these four guys don't have to and can still be effective.

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by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, I'll back off...

for now. It's too bad the Bills have higher needs. Special cornerbacks are legitimately rare, in my opinion.

How good do you want the Bills to be?

by Fort Worth on Mar 31, 2008 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't disagree

about the special corners remark. I just happen to think you don't need special corners in this defense, just good ones. You need special pass rushers in this defense. :) (Here come the onslaughts from sireric, Kurupt and SP.)

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by Brian Galliford on Mar 31, 2008 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well since you did kind of ask for it...

I will admit that you can't have stiffs in the secondary,and I would rather have pro-bowl caliber CBs and safeties then duds out there. However if you have a solid pass-rush that can get to the QB, it can hide a lot of ugly in your secondary.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Mar 31, 2008 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Job CBs in the Cover-2

I want to be corrected toot sweet if I am wrong. But I thought the CBs job in the Cover-2 to force the receivers to run outside of their routes. To do that they have to jam and pace their counterpart. They do this to keep that natural hole in the middle from filling up with opposing targets, I think.

While you may not need a shut-down man in the traditional sense, I think you do need strong, fast athletes. I am hoping Youboty can pick it up this year.

I'm the jolly little baker and you'll find me on the label of Kaufman's Rye Bread

by DCRumbler on Mar 31, 2008 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This defense

In terms of pass defense, does it matter whether the pass rush comes from a defensive end or a blitzer, given the same quality of pass coverage and pass rush in both scenarios?

I get the feeling that Vernon Gholston, Leodis McKelvin, and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie are special players. I'm not sure that Derrick Harvey is that special player. I'm pretty sure that Gholston will not be available when the Bills pick. That leaves McKelvin and Cromartie.

In today's game, pass rush is more important than pass coverage. However in my opinion, good cornerbacks are more difficult to find than good pass rushers.

How good do you want the Bills to be?

by Fort Worth on Mar 31, 2008 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Harvey

I haven't been an advocate for Harvey but it is worth noting that Jake Long said he's the quickest lineman he ever faced.

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 1, 2008 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

In Last Year's Draft

Do y'all remember when the Bills were on the clock in the first round and there was a debate going on in Buffalo's war room over who to take? It came down CB or RB. The Bills were juggling the idea of taking Revis or Lynch. Obviously, they took Lynch who probably made more of an impact this past season than any rookie not named Adrian Peterson.

Anyways, my point is... the personnel has not significantly changed since last season, substitute James for Kiwaukee Thomas and Jason Webster. The Bills addressed D Line and LB, what's left? CB, maybe S. And whether we like it or not, the staff is a lot more comfortable with our DE's than we are. So I wouldn't entirely rule out CB here if the Bills aren't too high on any of the WRs at 11.

"I don't agree with a damn thing you say, but I would die for your right to say it."

by ForeignArrow on Mar 31, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget Willis.

A lot of mock drafts had Bufalo taking him. He had a pretty nice year, don't ya think?

by krytime on Apr 1, 2008 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The CB Position

Agree with much of what has been said. Elite shutdown corners are rare. Not usually found in the later rounds. Most of the elite teams have one. We do not. IMO McKelvin or Cromartie will have a greater impact over time than a Harvey. We have one good corner now (McGee). The rest are, so far, just average. Agree that OBD feels better about DL than CB right now. But this discussion is probably meaningless. Looks like a WR for the first pick. Let's see, a stud at RB and WR. How good will Evans be with Kelly in there too? If that is the strategy, I hope we go TE with Bennett in the 2nd. If he is there. The Bills have vastly underrated the TE for a long time now. Turk, pick it up!

by keuka121 on Mar 31, 2008 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

could use an upgrade

I don't see how the addition of James changes anything for our secondary. The Bills brought in an experienced and tough CB to compete, but I doubt they actually think James has anything but an outside shot to win a starting job. Philly fans were very dissapointed with James' play and I doubt he would be effective as anything more than a nickel or dime guy. That leaves the Bills where they left off, with two passable, but not special starters in McGee and Greer and the anomally that is Youboty.

Cover 2 corners should be able to jam WRs on the line which allows DEs more time to get to the QB. We never see that because our CBs are small and thier strength is playing the ball. Cover 2 corners will ideally throw off the timing of an offense and make receivers run longer routes (time-wise, not distance-wise). Obviously CBs can get burned in press coverage which leads to the safety help over the top.

I hope Youboty beats Greer out for a starting spot and the Bills start jamming at the line more often. Greer could really excel at jumping routes and trying to ballhawk as a nickelback. I still think CB is a top priority and the Bills should take one in the first three rounds. If the Bills can pair up McGee with Youboty or a more physical rookie (McKelvin or Jenkins in the first or Patrick Lee, Chevis Jackson or someone comparible in rounds 2 or 3) they can really improve their D and run more of a true cover 2.

by kaisertown on Mar 31, 2008 8:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Desire For a True Cover 2?!

I have been saying for a while that I hope that the Bills adjust their Cover 2 defense for the better. I do not like Cover 2 because its pass coverage scheme is a bend-but-don't break philosophy and is typically associated with finesse front seven's. In my opinion, if you play bend-but-don't break defense, that means that you are not good enough to stop your opponent and you hope that your opponent will stop themselves. Why bend at all? Why not go three-and-out? Cover 2 is a passive and finesse defense, and I think football should be played aggressive and physical.

I must give the Bills credit for taking steps in the right direction (Marcus Stroud, Kavika Mitchell). The addition of an elite cornerback such as McKelvin or Cromartie would continue the adjustment for a more versatile and a better defense. Then, for example, the Bills would have the talent to mix in some Cover 1 to keep opposing offenses guessing. Ideally, the Bills will have the ability to play different styles to their advantage according to their opponent, game situation, individual matchup, etc. to allow for more consistent success.

How good do you want the Bills to be?

by Fort Worth on Mar 31, 2008 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

The Bills coaching staff plays defense conservatively because of our mediocre talent, NOT scheme. I think you either don't understand the cover 2, or more likely, watching the Bills play an overly safe version of the cover 2 has left a bad taste in your mouth. The cover 2 isn't a bend, but don't break D. That is a term used by bad defenses that can't stop teams. Every scheme probably has some mediocre teams that considers themselves bend, but don't break units. Do you think the Bucs, Bears and Colts defenses are conservative? You just associate cover 2s with having finesse front sevens because we had/have finese guys like 240 pound Schobel and useless Larry Triplett. Nobody considered Warren Sapp and Booger McFarland to be finesse players. I doubt Tommie Harris considers himself a finesse guy.

I think a defense that includes CBs that hit a WR on every play by jamming them at the line of scrimmage is very aggressive. WRs depend on speed and timing. Punching them in the chest every play is frustrating and disruptive. It is also risky and requires good CBs.

I also believe that a defense that uses ALL four D-Lineman to penetrate into the backfield is aggressive. DTs are supposed to exploit or create seams to get to the QB or take the running back down behind the line of scrimmage. DEs should be rushing the passer on EVERY play that isn't a short yardage situation.

It isn't the scheme's fault that the Bills talent was poor last season. The injuries didn't help either. Aren't you the same guy who realizes that the players are more important than the scheme?

by kaisertown on Mar 31, 2008 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cover 2

Teams that employ the Cover 2 as their base defense, such as the Colts, Bucs, Bears, and Bills, seem to place a priority on preventing big plays and not allowing points at the expense of allowing yards. To me, that is bend-but-don't break defense.

In addition, teams that use the Cover 2 often sacrifice size/strength for speed/quickness, particularly in the front seven. As a result, the players do not hold their ground at the point of attack, they get shoved around, and they avoid blockers (and contact) by running around them. Too often I notice they try to swat the ball away from the ballcarrier to force a fumble rather than tackling head on. To me, that is finesse defense.

However, I think that you make a great point. I very well could be wrong for associating the bend-but-don't-break and finesse terms with the Cover 2 scheme rather than the players. Those Cover 2 defenses just need better players.

That's why I like the acquisitions of Marcus Stroud and Kavika Mitchell. Their size, strength, and aggressiveness makes the defense more physical, versatile, and better. As I mentioned previously, an elite cornerback (one that can cover wide receivers in man coverage with no safety help) would provide the defense exceptional flexibility and further versatility.

I think defensive lineman that are exclusively penetrators are typically aggressive at rushing the passer, not at stopping the run. They play the run on the way to the quarterback. When all the defensive lineman have penetrated upfield past the running back, the running back is downfield gaining yards. Every time Dwight Freeney spins around the left tackle, it creates a huge gap or hole for the running back to run through.

I love the idea of cornerbacks jamming receivers because it is certainly playing aggressive. However, maybe it's just me, but I rarely see legitimate press coverage in any defense, including the Cover 2. Maybe a hand swipe on the shoulder here or there, but nothing real aggressive. In the Cover 2, I do not think that jamming is risky because the cornerbacks are protected by the safeties. Part of the requirement of good cornerbacks is the ability to cover.

Yes, I am the guy that believes that the game is more about the players than it is about the plays. Build the scheme around the players. Thanks for reminding me :)

How good do you want the Bills to be?

by Fort Worth on Apr 1, 2008 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Completely disagree.

The Cover 2/Tampa 2 is not really a bend but don't break defense. It's actually very aggressive, and physical (re: Steel Curtain). The Bills have just not had the guys to run the defense properly. They still may not, but they're closer than they were last season, with a draft to go...

by krytime on Apr 1, 2008 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs