Why Derrick Harvey Makes Sense for Buffalo

by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 10:33 AM EDT in Buffalo Bills Opinion

Harvey would solidify a strong D-Line (Gator Boosters)

The Buffalo Bills need a wide receiver. The Buffalo Bills need a cornerback. The Buffalo Bills need a tight end, a center and a strong safety. We all understand what the Buffalo Bills are most likely to target heading into the 2008 NFL Draft. Yet we also know that in two years of drafting, the Bills have been known to pull some surprise selections. Safety Donte Whitner and quarterback Trent Edwards were among the most surprising selections that the team has made.

So while I've been trying to prepare myself for the inevitable selection of a wide receiver with the Bills' first pick - a move I still feel strongly will occur in late April - the Buffalo Rumblings community, led by a vocal contingent of intelligent football fans, have been promoting what many deem an unlikely draft selection. I like to call them the "Derrick Harvey Contingent". I'm here to tell you this morning that while I am not part of this contingent, and still believe that the team will look to a different position with their top pick, drafting Derrick Harvey actually makes a ton of sense. The following are reasons why:

Our defensive ends aren't young: The Bills have three legitimate defensive ends on their roster, all possessing rather large contracts. That has been the main argument against drafting a defensive end in the first round. But of those three (not-so-productive) players, the youngest - Chris Kelsay - is 28. Aaron Schobel and Ryan Denney, meanwhile, are already 30 years old, and beyond the top three players, the Bills have zero depth (sorry, Ryan Neill and Copeland Bryan). The team clearly needs a young player to groom as a future starter.

Our defensive ends get hurt: Outside of Schobel, both Denney and Kelsay have missed significant chunks of playing time. Denney missed 9 games last season dealing with a foot injury (though he had not missed a game for the entirety of the preceding four seasons), and Kelsay missed two games as well (though, again, he had full participation the previous four seasons). Those injuries put a lot of pressure on Schobel (who has never missed a pro game) last season, and destroyed the team's depth at the position. The older these players get, the more difficult it will be for them to withstand 16-game seasons. Finding depth is a must.

Our defensive ends aren't impactful: All three of Buffalo's ends are known as non-stop motor, blue-collar hustlers who pick up their sacks based on effort. Only Schobel has proven that he has the ability to draw double teams, and the lack of an impact pass rusher on the other side severely limited his impact in 2007. The Bills must find a way to add a rookie with the motor that the team likes in their ends, but that also possesses the talent to take blockers away from Schobel, especially on pass downs. They may not be able to find that after the first round.

Derrick Harvey is really, really good: Don't make the mistake of thinking Harvey's "poor" Combine numbers - specifically his timed speed - will hurt him on draft day. Harvey is probably second in this draft to Virginia's Chris Long in terms of being an all-around excellent defensive end. He has the pass rushing skills and is stout enough against the run to be an excellent every-down defender in this league, and his "lack" of speed makes him a better fit at left end. The young man picked up 20.5 sacks in just 18 career starts at Florida, and would benefit immensely from having talented linemen such as Schobel and Marcus Stroud next to him. It's very possible that if he were drafted to Buffalo, he'd assume starting left end duties by the time the 2008 season concluded.

The Glorious Hair Agrees: Many are aware that The Big Talking Hair, Mel Kiper, has projected Harvey to Buffalo in his most recent mock draft. This is exactly the type of crackpot, "where the heck did that come from" Kiper prognostication that ends up being true on draft day.

So there it is. I'm not advocating it, but I'm not denying its appeal, either. Derrick Harvey would be an excellent, if unexpected, draft choice for the Buffalo Bills.

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Comments

Harvey

The Bills need to upgrade the pass-rush, and Harvey would do just that. I have never said that DE is the biggest need for this team, right now that is unquestionably WR, however I think that 11 is to high to take anyone of the three WRs we talk about. There are to many questions, (health, hands, etc...) I firmly believe that Harvey offers the best value at #11 and that DE is a big need, just not the biggest.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Apr 3, 2008 10:50 AM EDT reply actions

Thanks, Brian

We can see why they call you "Brain".

I agree with Harvey being a good value at #11 (although perhaps one of the top CB's might have merit here, as well). We could certainly use that kind of production from the left DE spot!

All I really care about (when it gets right down to it) is that Buffalo picks an impact player in the 1st round. No Mike Williams', please!

I think Malcolm Kelly's status (i.e. - present measurables) will solidify next week when he works out.

Get the Bills back to the big game!

by Blitz on Apr 3, 2008 11:03 AM EDT reply actions

Marv's priotity was D-Line..

He said if when he got [back] here, so if the Bills current brass shares that philosphy, it would not be a shocker at all. I'm a member of the "DHC" myself, mainly because it's been a decade since that position was any more than average... and the rest of the positions at least have a chance of getting addressed later. Seems like it's nearly impossible to find an impact DE later in the draft. Anyone got any examples?

by Brainiac on Apr 3, 2008 11:17 AM EDT reply actions

My favorite

is Eastern Michigan's Jason Jones, although Virginia Tech's Chris Ellis could be very good as well (and I believe it was ForeignArrow who brought his name up yesterday). I wouldn't be shocked to see both of those names off the board by the end of the second round, though.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions

I have to ask you, Brian

Where you get all the love for the Jones kid? Did you watch him at the Senior Bowl? He looked lost/slow rushing the passer, lost tracking down ball carriers, and overall looked clumsy. I admit he definitely has the measureables you look for, but he is definitely a project. Chris Ellis definitely could be a great fit and I would not mind grabbing him in the third. And seriously you can't overlook production so why not someone like Johnny Dingle (22 sacks).

Playoff Bound in '08!

by SP @ Buffalo Rumblings on Apr 3, 2008 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions

I think we need a guy like that

You know I don't like the idea of a DE in the first. I think the Bills need a guy like Jones who has the potential to be great - we don't need a guy who can play every down right away, in my opinion. Jones wasn't slow, by the way, he was tentative - and that can be erased with experience, confidence and coaching. He's got the tools. Coach him up and he could be an excellent starter by Year 3.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Fair Enough,

But with Harvey, you could have a potentially great DE starting by the end of Year 1. And I'll give you tentative/confused, but can you teach football smarts, and the best angle?

Playoff Bound in '08!

by SP @ Buffalo Rumblings on Apr 3, 2008 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Not a good idea

to bring up football smarts when defending Harvey, because he's not even close to as instinctive as Mr. Long or Mr. Gholston. Harvey is too easily fooled by play-action and often has to recover to make up a lot of ground with misdirection running plays. He'll have to learn to read his keys much better before he even thinks about sniffing any starting lineup at the NFL level.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Ridiculous

When did I compare his smarts to those guys,? I didn't but I'll tell you what he has more smarts than Jones, as he can make tackles behind the line and get to the passer. Harvey was the defensive captain at Florida, so obviously the kid can't be a moron. And tell me he won't start if Cincy drafts him at 9!

Playoff Bound in '08!

by SP @ Buffalo Rumblings on Apr 3, 2008 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions

can't argue

With that line of logical reasoning. I am a firm believer in drafting defensively or O-line in the 1st round. We all know that the draft is a crap shoot, sometimes more at certain positions, but tape does not lie. Harvey is a talented, hard working DE. The bottom line is you use the following equation:

(the tape + character evaluation) = ranking on board

As far as drafting a DE however, it just doesn't seem reasonable in the 1st round this year. With the huge need at the offensive pass-catching position and the opportunity for Buffalo to take their choice of the WR crop, I prefer WR this season as it is a unique position for the Bills to be in.

However, if they took Harvey I would be thrilled.

MARVelous

by MARVelous on Apr 3, 2008 11:41 AM EDT reply actions

Why the heck not

With us having 4 picks in the top 132, we can afford to take the best player available in round 1. This just means we have to take a WR in round 2 and probably TE/CB in rounds 3 and 4. I am not against this one bit.

by hilliarddavid on Apr 3, 2008 11:45 AM EDT reply actions

guys guys

Everyone is so quick to glorify the greatness of Harvey but I have a lot of problems with what is being said:

1. )"But of those three (not-so-productive) players" - that is really not fair. Schobel is one of the better ends in the league. The man has one down-season sack wise but still recorded 90+ tackles.

2.)"Our defensive ends get hurt" - as you mentioned yourself right after this Brian, Kelsay and Denney went 4 seasons without missing time. And Kelsay only missed 2 games this year. You can't claim they get hurt because they had one injury season out of five. Its football, if thats how you define injury prone, then everyone is injury prone save Brett Favre.

3.) "The Bills must find a way to add a rookie with the motor that the team likes...They may not be able to find that after the first round." - What about your boy Jason Jones? I think he will be just as impactful as Harvey his rookie year. Neither one would start over Kelsay come the season, we all know this.

4.)"Harvey is probably second in this draft to Virginia's Chris Long in terms of being an all-around excellent defensive end" - I think Vernon Gholston would have plenty to say about that. I assure, just because Gholston is really really good at pass rushing doesnt mean he's not all around better than Harvey. He is.

I simply do not understand the logic behind taking a DE with #11. I've heard all the arguments and I'm not convinced. I would much rather take the best receiver in the draft at #11 than take the 3rd best DE in the draft. I would rather fill a starting role that will see plenty of action in the 1st round then fill a rotational role that would see Hargrove minutes. I would rather give a boost to the offensive side of the ball which has seen no improvement than to a defensive unit that is already much improved with Stroud, Johnson, Mitchell, and James. Finally, I think Jason Jones is a better value in the second round than Hardy or Nelson, IF they even drop that far.

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 12:12 PM EDT reply actions

I don't disagree

I don't like taking DE either; I'm just pointing out here that adding Harvey would not be a bad deal for Buffalo.

You can't claim they get hurt because they had one injury season out of five.

My point was more aimed at they have a better shot at continuing to accrue injuries as they get older. That's true of every NFL veteran, save that #4 character you mentioned.

What about your boy Jason Jones? I think he will be just as impactful as Harvey his rookie year.

Boy, I don't. I like Jones, but as a developmental guy who would play in certain situations and on special teams as a rookie. Jones doesn't have the explosion off the snap that Harvey does either. Harvey is clearly a better prospect, both short-term and long-term. Jones is facing a huge talent jump as well.

I assure, just because Gholston is really really good at pass rushing doesnt mean he's not all around better than Harvey. He is.

I don't believe I made that assumption. I believe that Harvey is a better run defender than Gholston is. But I also believe that Gholston is a much more explosive player. Gholston is a better prospect, yes, and he should be drafted higher accordingly. But right now, Harvey is more consistent against the run than Gholston is.

I'll repeat what I said at the end of the article - I'm not advocating Harvey, but I'm not discouting the appeal, either.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

You have heard all the arguments....

And aren't convinced, seriously? And how many WR's deserve even a first round selection much less the 11th? I do not count one in this years entire class. The truth is that WR is a much deeper and solid class this year then compared to the DE's. There will be plenty of WR available in the second or third round when we pick the same cannot be said for DE's. And the WR's that will be there will not have much lower of a grade than Kelly, Thomas.....etc. Bottom Line the third best DE is hands down better pick then anyone of the top three WR's and has way more upside!

Playoff Bound in '08!

by SP @ Buffalo Rumblings on Apr 3, 2008 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions

The truth

that is relevant is not that this year's WR class is deeper. The truth that is relevant is that we NEED the best WR in this draft and can not afford to wait until the second round regardless of whether or not you believe none deserve a 1st round grade. I do not agree with you on that, I think Kelly does, but let's say that you are right and none deserve to go 1st.

That doesn't change the fact that most likely the Broncos #12, Panthers #13, Bears #14, Eagles #19, Redskins #21, and Titans #24 will all consider drafting a receiver with their 1st pick. Most likely between 3 and 4 of these teams will do so if we don't bite first. Especially if an early team like the Broncos does, a run will start. Where does that leave us come the mid 2nd round? In the second round chances improve that a team before us such as the Dolphins #33, Ravens #40 or Bengals #41 (who just cut Henry and may trade Johnson) will consider one. I would argue that the Ravens will definitely, and the Bengals just might, so that means another 1 or 2 gone. That is if we risk waiting until the 2nd round let alone 3rd. Where would that leave us, selecting the 5th receiver option? Nelson would probably be gone. In my humble opinion, Early Doucet is not good and Bennett is not the answer for next year. Like I said, I don't see how you can justify risking missing the receiver run.

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions

I just don't see....

That many WR's going in the first, could those teams all possibly go WR? Sure they could, but I don't see them doing it Denver, No; Carolina, Doubtful(way bigger needs), I see possibly Philly and Tennesse taking one. I see more of a run on WR's in round two, and I do feel like we could and would have no reservations in trading back up into the first (we have recently, remember) and grabbing one if a run gets started. We also differ as to who will be a day one player in this league, I believe Nelson and Bennett are the 2 most pro ready, and Yes we should be able to grab them in the second.

Playoff Bound in '08!

by SP @ Buffalo Rumblings on Apr 3, 2008 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions

Don't forget Cincinnati

Houshmandzadeh wants a new deal. Chad Johnson is... well... Chad Johnson; he could be traded. Chris Henry was released. Think the Bengals aren't looking at Kelly/Thomas at #9? Think again.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Don't believe the hype

Houshmandzadeh will get a new deal. Chad Johnson will not be traded this year. He will play for the "gals" or sit out. Lewis would lose too much face.

by Joe P. on Apr 3, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Chad is pissed

Honestly, I think he'd sit out at this point. At least enough games until he could come back and get paid.

Agree about Houshmandzadeh. But even if they're without Chad and Henry, their offensive is tanked, and their best player (Palmer) is pissed. They gotta keep their QB happy, right?

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions

See Lance Briggs last year

That is exactly how I would expect the Chad Johnson situaltion to play out. To big of a cap hit for the "gals" to trade him. Also, the "gals" defense is in much worse shape that the offense. If they do go offense, I would say that RB is a greater need than WR.

by Joe P. on Apr 3, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions

i agree

Cincinnati has become an immediate concern for us. It looks very unlikely Johnson can return to his locker room after all his trash talk about wanting out of town. Henry is an idiot. If they are stuck with just TJ I'd say they make look to grab a WR. Also, SP what makes you say that Jordy Nelson and Earl Bennett are the only pro ready receivers?

Bennett 40 time: 4.47, Height: 5-11
Nelson 40 time: 4.51, Height: 6-3
Kelly 40 time: N/A, Height 6-4
Sweed 40 time: 4.52, Height 6-4

I would say Bennett isn't what we're looking for as he's another sub-6'0 receiver wouldn't you agree? Then if we look at the remaining three's stats for '07 and '06, looking for both production and consistency, Kelly comes out on top.

Nelson, 06: 39-547-1, 07: 122-1606-11
Sweed, 06: 45-801-12, 07: 19-306-3
Kelly, 06: 62-993-10, 07: 49-821-9

No doubt about it, Nelson had a phenomenal year in 07 but i think if you look at who produced at a high level back to back, which should translate well into NFL potential, Kelly demonstrates that he is reliably productive.

I don't disagree that Nelson is NFL ready, I just question why you think he is more so than Kelly?

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions

I didn't say only.....

Thats the thing I said I THINK they are the 2 MOST pro ready! I do not question Kelly as being pro ready, I just do not think that he is as ready as Nelson (JMO), I have watched a lot of both of these two out here in Big 12 country and I just happen to love Nelson, and the recurring injuries scare me big time. Yes, Kelly does come out on top in consistensy, but take into account that Nelson was still very very raw and being transferred to WR in '06, and I look for WR to significantly improve in each year in College, Nelson takes that one.
Personally, I agree that WR is our biggest need, it just is not worth taking one this year. Yes, Harvey is the 3rd best DE, but any other year he is a top 5 pick, how often do we see Long, and Gholston come out (IMO SUREFIRE STUDS)? The same cannot be said about any of these WR's!

Playoff Bound in '08!

by SP @ Buffalo Rumblings on Apr 3, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions

My rocking chair

I would fall off my rocking chair if they draft Kelly, Thomas, or Sweed.

I would love to make a bet with you on this!!

by krytime on Apr 3, 2008 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Not likely

Your logic is that because one team reaches for a WR in a class weak in #1 WR talent, that others teams are going to reach even further for #2 talent? What happened? Did chicken little stop by and tell you the sky is falling? Couldn't you make the same argument for CB and DE. It is almost a guarantee that 2 of the top 6 picks will be DEs. Won't that start a run on DEs?

by Joe P. on Apr 3, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Not quite

If a run does happen, which tends to occur with skill set, offensive players, my point would be that we have sacrificed next year to mediocrity on offense. The same can not be said if we miss out on a DE. Our defense does not NEED a DE to be good next year our offense does NEED a WR to be good next year. Its not chicken little and the sky is falling, its called weighing risk against reward.

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Run on WRs

Poz,

I think you hit the nail on the head. The Vikings, Eagles, Bucs, Redskins, Cowboys, and Titans could each be interested in WRs in the first round. There's a good chance that 3 WRs (say Kelly, Thomas, Jackson) are picked in the first round even if Buffalo doesn't take one. The Dolphins, Raiders, Chiefs, Jets, Ravens, and possibly Bengals might consider a receiver in the 2nd round before Buffalo picks. Say 2 more (Sweed, Hardy) receivers are gone before Buffalo selects. We're talking about the 6th (best case) receiver to come off the board if Buffalo takes one in the 2nd--and possibly the 7th or 8th. Yikes!

Ron

by Ron From NM on Apr 3, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Trading back up....

Ron, yes I could see three WR's and maybe even four going in round one, but as I mentioned earlier, why could we not want to or try to trade back up into the first/early second (you know like the past couple of years) and get a top WR and a stud DE?

Playoff Bound in '08!

by SP @ Buffalo Rumblings on Apr 3, 2008 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions

good additions

I think those were excellent additions to the potential suitors for a WR in the Bucs, Vikings, and Cowboys. What scares me is not that all these teams may actually draft receivers in the 1st two rounds but that there are simply so many who have the holes to potentially do so. If the day doesn't go our way after drafting Harvey, we may never even get a chance to sniff one of the top 5 receivers again. And that is too great a risk in my opinion, next season hinges on acquiring another target.

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Did they

cancel free agency next year?

by Joe P. on Apr 3, 2008 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions

FA?

What does FA next year have to do with the draft now? I see your point but I think it is irrelevant to the discussion of losing out on WR with so many potential suitors. With the info I posted on Davis below would be comfortable having him as the addition to our offense?

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions

I see what you mean

when you said next season, you meant this coming season. I thought you meant the 2009 season, which of course is the season we make it to the SB.

by Joe P. on Apr 3, 2008 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes Sir!

Super Bowl 09? I agree. Regardless of draft choice, I billieve we are ready for a run!!!

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 4, 2008 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions

What would be the difference in production

between lining up Kelly at #2 vs Fred Davis (or one of the other vertical threat TEs) at TE. Can't we accomplish basically the same thing? I doubt we get our pick of the litter at both positions. Who would you like better from the two pairs. Harvey and Davis or Kelly and Jones?

by Joe P. on Apr 3, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Davis

Davis had a pretty terrible showing at his Pro Day yesterday.

Quoting rotoworld, "USC TE Fred Davis ran a disappointing forty at the Trojans' Pro Day Wednesday, timing in the 4.7s. NFL Network's Mike Mayock said Davis also struggled to finish his change-of-direction drills and did not appear fluid. Davis relied on his vertical skills during a breakout senior campaign, so the poor workout may send up a red flag. It was the first time Davis (knee) has worked out this offseason."

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions

Dude, you don't draft just for the next season.

The draft is the way you build your team. And you build your team for the long haul by picking the BPA.

by krytime on Apr 3, 2008 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions

The logic is simple.

Harvey at #11 is a better value than any of the WRs at #11. He would likely be one of the BPA. I can think of a couple of others too if you'd like...

by krytime on Apr 3, 2008 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions

Best available

I think what Brian is doing is taking all feasable options that we may take at #11. The Bills will take the best player available that will solidify one of our needs (DE, TE, WR and CB). As th eBills have shown, they are not worried where everyone else has players, slotted to go... they will pick the best player that can help the Bills.

I agre with Brian in the fact that it is nice to view all options and reassuring us the quility of players we ca nget at #11. I truly think we can't go wrong in selecting any of the players Brian has listed so far.

Great discussions guys!!!

by hilliarddavid on Apr 3, 2008 12:19 PM EDT reply actions

That, in fact, is the goal

Harvey is the first of a series. Many more to come prior to the big day.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

completely disagree...

in fact I can't disagree more. I've made the arguments: salaries, age (since when did 28 become old?), ability (schboel is a pro bowler), other needs. I'm not going to make them again.

BPA is the new "poise" argument. It's sh*t. It's great in theory, but you don't take a RB in round 1 when you have LT in his prime. You MUST address your team needs. DE may be a need of the Bills, but it is far below many other needs, including WR, TE, C, CB and S.

sorry for the hostility, my dog just pissed on the bed and i'm not in a good mood.

John I.

by jri111 on Apr 3, 2008 12:33 PM EDT reply actions

btw...

that was't director towards anyone in particular, that's directed to the whole DE in round 1 argument.

John I.

by jri111 on Apr 3, 2008 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Sorry about your dog.

If it makes you feel better, I sharted yesterday as I was waking up in the morning....

by krytime on Apr 3, 2008 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions

DE

I've made the arguments: salaries, age (since when did 28 become old?), ability (schboel is a pro bowler), other needs.

I don't buy the salary issue as being a reason not to take a DE early. First off, the #11 pick would get a 5-6 year deal at what amounts to $3-4M per season. That's not exactly breaking the bank. Second, just because we gave two ridiculous deals to overrated players, we shouldn't handcuff ourselves and not upgrade the position because of it. Denney is making $2.5M per season, which isn't a ton, but wouldn't he be a candidate for being cut in the future anyhow?

Age, coupled with foot injuries, are not something you like seeing in your DE's. Throw in Kelsay and Denney's lack of impact/production over the years and I don't see why we wouldn't want to get younger and better at the position.

I don't like using Schobel's Pro Bowls as backup for his play. This past year, he was far from deserving of a Pro Bowl spot, but may have been selected based on his prior year play. There's no way that guy is anywhere near the top DE's in the league. He was non-existent in the pass rush this year, providing very little pressure, especially on a consistent basis which this D needs. Kelsay and Denney are far worse pass rushers, giving us pretty much nothing in pass situations. Kelsay is also pretty terrible against the rush.

And how is DE that much lower of a need than those other positions? Safety? Come on!! In case you forgot, we were dreadful getting to the QB last year. I don't know about you, but it made me sick watching our DE's getting manhandled by OT's while the QB was able to sit back and take his time getting the ball to receivers. Our defense can't succeed without a pass rush, and at this point, we have one DE that has been able to pressure QB's in the past, and even he isn't all that great at it.

by Kurupt on Apr 3, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions

We have two major sticking points you and I

First, you think that just because Schobel, Denney and Kelsay are overpaid then we shouldn't add any more "big" salary, and the 11th overall pick will make more money then you are willing to spend on another DE. This argument to me holds no water, mainly because I see it this way; I don't care how much the incumbents are making, if they aren't getting the job done, then a change needs to be made. In comparison to the rest of the league, our QBs are making far less then most, so if we save at QB and spend more at DE, where's the problem?

Second, in my opinion you over-rate Denney's talent, or as I see it, his lack there of. The guy has recorded 17.5 sacks in 6 years, that's less then 3 a years. On a defense that needs to generate a consistent pass rush, thats just not getting it done.

I won't get into the "best player available" argument, because I feel it should be more like "the best player available, who fills a need", and to me thats, Harvey.

Man do I miss #78

by sireric on Apr 3, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions

You know I'm with you, John...

... but are you against Harvey the player? Are you saying that there's no appeal to bringing him in?

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Lynch-Poz Redux

Lets say the Bills are able to move back into the 1st round or early second, say between 25-35 without giving up too much; e.g. a swap like last year to land Posluszny when he fell to round 2.

Does anyone think Kelly (or Sweed or Thomas) will still be available? If so, if we get our WR with pick 2, how does this affect you're thinking about the Bill's first pick?

by Zumone on Apr 3, 2008 12:45 PM EDT reply actions

What does sense mean?

Getting a starter is never a bad thing. However, when you score 12 TD passes (one by a halfback option play) in 16 games, a red flag should be raised. If you want Lee Evans not to bolt from the Bills, maybe it is time to give Ryan Lindell some help.

Straud, Mitchell, and Johnson, together with a healthy Posluszny, cannot but help Kelsay and Schobel in the pressure application area.

If only to atone from the utter stupidity of the Peerless Price signing, the Bills have to use pick 11 on a wideout.

by Mighty Taco on Apr 3, 2008 1:43 PM EDT reply actions

Again

Not questioning the WR logic. This article was not me campaigning for Derrick Harvey to be selected at #11. This is me preparing the shock and awe portion of my brain for the remote possibility that he's drafted, because he's an excellent prospect with loads of potential that would fit into Buffalo's defensive scheme very well.

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by Brian Galliford on Apr 3, 2008 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Jauron says he's sticking tothe Draft Board

I liked that yesterday Dick said they've graded their players and they'll (for the most part)stick to the draft board grades and not reach for players just out of need.

So who knows, we could end up with Harvey or a CB after all...

The defense is on the field 2/3rds of the game anyway so we should have a team with about 40 defensers.

by south123 on Apr 3, 2008 2:20 PM EDT reply actions

Reaching

South,

I have a hard time seeing how Buffalo had Whitner graded higher than Ngata. The Tampa 2, however, reguires a lot from the safety position so it seems clear that Buffalo reached for need 2 years ago. Personally I've always been puzzled by the grading of players from different positions. Take Ngata and Whitner, for example. While I think Ngata would have been the better choice I can't say that Ngata is a better defensive lineman than Whitner is a safety. Harvey may be the best available DE when Buffalo picks but is he a better DE than Kelly/Sweed/Thomas is a WR?

Ron

by Ron From NM on Apr 3, 2008 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Exactly why we need a receiver

The defense is only the field 2/3rds of the game because we don't have another viable receiving option!! Aren't you using reverse logic here? You're saying we should draft defense with our first pick because our offense isn't good enough to stay on the field. Well, draft a WR and try to keep the offense on the field more!

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Yaa..

Yeah, I'm just being tongue-in-cheek. I'm all for WR too, it'll be intersting to see how it all goes down in a few weeks.

I figured we'd get a CB last year in round 1 just because I thought it was impossible for the Bills to draft the obvious.

by south123 on Apr 3, 2008 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions

whoops

wow...my job is frying my mind. I didn't even catch a hint of sarcasm let alone see the 40 defenders on defense part. Are you of the Kelly, Thomas, or Sweed camp?

It's not delivery, It's DiGiorgio!

by poz on Apr 3, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Still No Idea

I don't have a clue on how to compare them, I'm really more of a casual observer. I noticed Chris Brown praising Devin and I took that as a subtle effort to make fans aware the Bills think highly of him. I have to imagine Kelly's injuries are handicapping him a bit, especially if you think 5-10 years down the road.

And LIMAS SWEED is actually an anagram for "WADE SMILES" so I take that to mean the Cowboys will draft him.

by south123 on Apr 3, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Nerdy word play

I love it! If Sweed is on the board I can see the Cowboys taking him. Not only do you have the home-state angle but they really do need someone to replace Terry Glenn.

by Ron From NM on Apr 3, 2008 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Awesome

And LIMAS SWEED is actually an anagram for "WADE SMILES" so I take that to mean the Cowboys will draft him.

Makes sense

by Kurupt on Apr 3, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I think what I gather

from all of this debate is we take a WR at #11. I'll make it easy for all of you.

Here is my argument. Why not after the Bills scouting all the WR's and probably have the chance to take the 1st WR off the board at #11, would they take any other position???????

The logical two answers are 1) they don't like any of the WR's 2) Another player is rated higher than any of the WR's on their board.

However, the Bills the last 2 years have shown to draft for need. Evidence, Whitner and McCargo, and Lynch and Poz. You can argue with me all you want on that, but THEY TARGETED those guys and they got em. They didn't care if they supposedly drafted them TOO HIGH.

They will not trade the #11 pick, and they will take a WR. It is a done deal.

MARVelous

by MARVelous on Apr 3, 2008 4:00 PM EDT reply actions

Camp Harvey

Count me in the Harvey Camp. Let's look at it from a position standpoint.

Case for DE: The Giants showed the rest of the league how to beat the Patriots with a great D line and a relentless pass rush. To win the division we need to go through New England.. and to do that we are going to have to be able to put Tom Brady on his back. Adding Stroud should help free up the current DE's on the roster for more pressure... but if Stroud gets hurt what is plan B? We need a natural speed rusher who can create on his own regardless of what the DT's are doing. I believe Harvey has that potential. Kelsay and Denney are adequate against the run but most of their sacks are coverage related. They are not athletic enough to make plays on their own on a consistent level. It may be tough for Harvey to get starting snaps right away but he could be a real factor as a 3rd down pass rushing specialist. It is my impression that DE's can make the adjustment from college to pro faster than a WR. There are many examples ( Dwight Freeney, Jevon Kearse etc..)

Case against WR: To that point, it generally takes several years for wideouts to get acclimated to the pro game and to be genuinely productive ( with few exceptions). Eric Moulds is a great example. He didn't make much of an impact his first two years .. then in year 3 the light bulb came on. He turned out to be one of the all time greats at WR for the Bills... but it took 3 years. We can't wait that long...We need someone who will contribute right away.. while the Bills are still in Buffalo.

Upshot: This front office has proven it's preference for guys in the draft who can step in right away and contribute ( I.E.Whitner). Let's go with Harvey .. and then we can take less risk with a solid guy like Jordy Nelson at WR in the 2nd or 3rd round

Kent Hull for Hall of Fame

by bocephuz on Apr 3, 2008 5:45 PM EDT reply actions

Doomed to repeat the past?

Something just occurred to me that bears in the ongoing discussion of WR vs DE (or CB for that matter). In the Jauron era the Bills have had exactly zero success in identifying quality WRs, either in the draft or in free agency. Evans, the only really good WR, was drafted by Donahoe. For that matter, so was Parrish. (Reed is a holdover as well, so it wasn't all wine and roses in the Donahoe era either...) Price clearly had nothing left in the tank when Jauron brought him back. Jenkins, Mayle and Huggins haven't contributed anything in terms of offense. Perhaps another point in the DE picks favor is that the WR acquisitions just haven't panned out.

by Ron From NM on Apr 3, 2008 5:57 PM EDT reply actions

1st Round

Given the propensity of this organization to move around on draft day, especially day one, it woudl not surprise me to see them take Harvey or the top cornerback left at eleven. Considering all of the picks that they have to play with, and the limited number of high end needs on the club, they can easily deal into the back of the first round and grab the receiver that they need.

I think Harvey/cornerback at eleven and a wideout at around pick twenty five, by trading up, likely surrendering the second round pick and at least one fourth round pick. I think Sweed will be the guy at pick twenty five and then they'll try and grab a tight end in the third round with their remaining pick.

by Metzelaars on Apr 3, 2008 7:03 PM EDT reply actions

Typos

Sorry for the typos - I've six deep into a case of Dan's Pale Ale.

by Metzelaars on Apr 3, 2008 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Their picks

Their picks aren't really worth all that much, aside from the 1st to 3rd. Where they have the extra picks are in the lowest round, save for the 4th round compensatory pick. Those three 7ths aren't really much to deal with...

by krytime on Apr 3, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions